Pheu Thai Candidate Faces Police Complaint For Threatening An On-Duty Soldier With A Pistol

[webfact]

Pheu Thai candidate faces police complaint

By THE NATION

The Army has filed a police complaint against a Pheu Thai candidate in Bangkok for allegedly threatening an on-duty soldier with a pistol, the Army spokesman said yesterday.

Colonel Sansern Kaewkamnerd said the complaint was filed against Pairote Issaraseripong.

The soldier in question is an Army sergeant who is part of the government's anti-narcotics Unit 315 and was gathering information in Nong Chok district before his encounter with Pairote, the spokesman said.

The issue turned into a conflict between the Army and the Pheu Thai Party as each side started accusing the other of politicising the matter.

Sansern insisted yesterday that Pairote - who was accompanied by six or seven other men - confronted the sergeant and signalled that he was carrying a pistol.

"I am not worried if there is a complaint filed against me. As a public official, I am ready for that," the Army spokesman said, adding that Unit 315 was effective in reducing the narcotics problem in the city.

Meanwhile, Pheu Thai's prime-ministerial candidate Yingluck Shinawatra said yesterday that she had no problems with the government or the Army over the anti-narcotics campaign and Unit 315. However, she asked for relevant parties to "play by the rules". She did not elaborate.

As for reports that the authorities would look into some "villages of the red shirts" in the North and Northeast, Yingluck said these villages had been called that because some people had probably put up a few too many banners. She was quick to add that she personally did not want people to be split into different political colours.

The red shirts regard themselves as supporters of former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra - Yingluck's brother - who is believed to be pulling the strings behind Pheu Thai.

Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva, who is also leader of the Democrat Party, said yesterday that he had heard these so-called red-shirt villages were meant to mobilise people, but the purpose of this mobilisation remained unclear.

When asked whether this move would divide society further, Abhisit asked people to think for themselves and do what they could to allow the country to go forward.

-- The Nation 2011-06-11

[Soutpeel]

"However, she asked for relevant parties to "play by the rules".

Yes lets play by the rules.....Police should arrest and charge Khun Pairote Issaraseripong for threatening the soldier with a fire arm.

What would have happened if an "ordinary" Thai citizen had done the same thing ?......arrested and up on charges...simple

[ToffeEFCpower]

Pairote has nothing to fear from the police, they are also red.

[tigermonkey]

"However, she asked for relevant parties to "play by the rules".

Yes lets play by the rules.....Police should arrest and charge Khun Pairote Issaraseripong for threatening the soldier with a fire arm.

What would have happened if an "ordinary" Thai citizen had done the same thing ?......arrested and up on charges...simple

I am sure that the police will arrest and charge Pairote if there is evidence to prove the allegation. However, all we really have so far is a verbal confrontation together with the army sergeant's statement that Pairote "signalled" that he had a pistol. No one has actually said a firearm was seen.

How do you "signal" that you have a pistol ? Do you point under your jacket to indicate that there is a pistol there ? -- he could be indicating his wallet and offering money . Do you pretend to shoot with your pointed finger ? - as ib " bang, you're dead". Any "signal" is open to the sergeant's interpretation.

There was no allegation or evidence that Pairote said that he had a gun, or displayed a gun. .

Sorry but there seems to be no evidence of a threat with "a fire arm" -- only a senseless confrontation !

Edited June 11, 2011 by tigermonkey

[hanuman1]

"However, she asked for relevant parties to "play by the rules".

Yes lets play by the rules.....Police should arrest and charge Khun Pairote Issaraseripong for threatening the soldier with a fire arm.

What would have happened if an "ordinary" Thai citizen had done the same thing ?......arrested and up on charges...simple

I am sure that the police will arrest and charge Pairote if there is evidence to prove the allegation. However, all we really have so far is a verbal confrontation together with the army sergeant's statement that Pairote "signalled" that he had a pistol. No one has actually said a firearm was seen.

How do you "signal" that you have a pistol ? Do you point under your jacket to indicate that there is a pistol there ? -- he could be indicating his wallet and offering money . Do you pretend to shoot with your pointed finger ? - as ib " bang, you're dead". Any "signal" is open to the sergeant's interpretation.

There was no allegation or evidence that Pairote said that he had a gun, or displayed a gun. .

Sorry but there seems to be no evidence of a threat with "a fire arm" -- only a senseless confrontation !

Prepare to be labelled a red terrorist/Thaksin sympathizer....

Edited June 11, 2011 by hanuman1

[jdinasia]

"However, she asked for relevant parties to "play by the rules".

Yes lets play by the rules.....Police should arrest and charge Khun Pairote Issaraseripong for threatening the soldier with a fire arm.

What would have happened if an "ordinary" Thai citizen had done the same thing ?......arrested and up on charges...simple

I am sure that the police will arrest and charge Pairote if there is evidence to prove the allegation. However, all we really have so far is a verbal confrontation together with the army sergeant's statement that Pairote "signalled" that he had a pistol. No one has actually said a firearm was seen.

How do you "signal" that you have a pistol ? Do you point under your jacket to indicate that there is a pistol there ? -- he could be indicating his wallet and offering money . Do you pretend to shoot with your pointed finger ? - as ib " bang, you're dead". Any "signal" is open to the sergeant's interpretation.

There was no allegation or evidence that Pairote said that he had a gun, or displayed a gun. .

Sorry but there seems to be no evidence of a threat with "a fire arm" -- only a senseless confrontation !

Prepare to be labelled a red terrorist/Thaksin sympathizer....

Nah, he should just be prepared to have it suggested that he read the other thread about the topic that said pistols were seen.

[kropotkin]

"However, she asked for relevant parties to "play by the rules".

Yes lets play by the rules.....Police should arrest and charge Khun Pairote Issaraseripong for threatening the soldier with a fire arm.

What would have happened if an "ordinary" Thai citizen had done the same thing ?......arrested and up on charges...simple

I am sure that the police will arrest and charge Pairote if there is evidence to prove the allegation. However, all we really have so far is a verbal confrontation together with the army sergeant's statement that Pairote "signalled" that he had a pistol. No one has actually said a firearm was seen.

How do you "signal" that you have a pistol ? Do you point under your jacket to indicate that there is a pistol there ? -- he could be indicating his wallet and offering money . Do you pretend to shoot with your pointed finger ? - as ib " bang, you're dead". Any "signal" is open to the sergeant's interpretation.

There was no allegation or evidence that Pairote said that he had a gun, or displayed a gun. .

Sorry but there seems to be no evidence of a threat with "a fire arm" -- only a senseless confrontation !

Perhaps Pairote was very happy to see the sergeant?

wink wink nodge nodge

[rixalex]

I am sure that the police will arrest and charge Pairote if there is evidence to prove the allegation. However, all we really have so far is a verbal confrontation together with the army sergeant's statement that Pairote "signalled" that he had a pistol. No one has actually said a firearm was seen.

How do you "signal" that you have a pistol ? Do you point under your jacket to indicate that there is a pistol there ? -- he could be indicating his wallet and offering money . Do you pretend to shoot with your pointed finger ? - as ib " bang, you're dead". Any "signal" is open to the sergeant's interpretation.

There was no allegation or evidence that Pairote said that he had a gun, or displayed a gun. .

Sorry but there seems to be no evidence of a threat with "a fire arm" -- only a senseless confrontation !

You could signal you have a pistol by showing it. Whether he did or not is unclear from articles i have read, so i wouldn't be so quick to conclude at this stage whether he did or whether he didn't. My guess is though that for there to have been the furore that there has, something more than mere verbal confrontation must have occured.

[jdinasia]

I am sure that the police will arrest and charge Pairote if there is evidence to prove the allegation. However, all we really have so far is a verbal confrontation together with the army sergeant's statement that Pairote "signalled" that he had a pistol. No one has actually said a firearm was seen.

How do you "signal" that you have a pistol ? Do you point under your jacket to indicate that there is a pistol there ? -- he could be indicating his wallet and offering money . Do you pretend to shoot with your pointed finger ? - as ib " bang, you're dead". Any "signal" is open to the sergeant's interpretation.

There was no allegation or evidence that Pairote said that he had a gun, or displayed a gun. .

Sorry but there seems to be no evidence of a threat with "a fire arm" -- only a senseless confrontation !

You could signal you have a pistol by showing it. Whether he did or not is unclear from articles i have read, so i wouldn't be so quick to conclude at this stage whether he did or whether he didn't. My guess is though that for there to have been the furore that there has, something more than mere verbal confrontation must have occured.

Col Sansern Kaewkamnerd, the Army spokesman, said the group displayed pistols, with Pairoj telling the soldiers: "If I blow a whistle, you **** will not be able to **** leave this area."

[jdinasia]

Both verbal threats ... and intimidation with weapons ... according to the other story ^^

[animatic]

Pairote has nothing to fear from the police, they are also red.

Except those that are not.

[anterian]

Another storm in a teacup. 5 years ago I watched a guy in Khaosan road walk down the road pointing a gun at people, he got ignored. In my village a neighbour every time he gets worked up stands in the road waving a gun around. Waving guns seems normal in Thailand, only pulling the trigger is seen as serious, even then it depends upon who's finger it is

[jdinasia]

Another storm in a teacup. 5 years ago I watched a guy in Khaosan road walk down the road pointing a gun at people, he got ignored. In my village a neighbour every time he gets worked up stands in the road waving a gun around. Waving guns seems normal in Thailand, only pulling the trigger is seen as serious, even then it depends upon who's finger it is

Threatening on-duty military personnel ---- far from a "storm in a teacup",

Getting caught with an illegal firearm leads to not only jail time/fine but each bullet is counted as well. "Waving guns" may seem "normal in Thailand" to you, it hasn't been my experience to see them waved around frequently.

[rixalex]

Another storm in a teacup. 5 years ago I watched a guy in Khaosan road walk down the road pointing a gun at people, he got ignored. In my village a neighbour every time he gets worked up stands in the road waving a gun around. Waving guns seems normal in Thailand, only pulling the trigger is seen as serious, even then it depends upon who's finger it is

It's hard to imagine, in this day and age, a person in public, brandishing a gun and looking like they might use it, being ignored by those in nearby vicinity. Screaming and running for cover seems a more likely and a more natural human reaction.

[jdinasia]

Another storm in a teacup. 5 years ago I watched a guy in Khaosan road walk down the road pointing a gun at people, he got ignored. In my village a neighbour every time he gets worked up stands in the road waving a gun around. Waving guns seems normal in Thailand, only pulling the trigger is seen as serious, even then it depends upon who's finger it is

It's hard to imagine, in this day and age, a person in public, brandishing a gun and looking like they might use it, being ignored by those in nearby vicinity. Screaming and running for cover seems a more likely and a more natural human reaction.

Agreed ... but it isn't hard to imagine someone with an agenda trying to downplay a PTP candidate in a redshirt village threatening officials doing their jobs.

[anterian]

Another storm in a teacup. 5 years ago I watched a guy in Khaosan road walk down the road pointing a gun at people, he got ignored. In my village a neighbour every time he gets worked up stands in the road waving a gun around. Waving guns seems normal in Thailand, only pulling the trigger is seen as serious, even then it depends upon who's finger it is

Threatening on-duty military personnel ---- far from a "storm in a teacup",

Getting caught with an illegal firearm leads to not only jail time/fine but each bullet is counted as well. "Waving guns" may seem "normal in Thailand" to you, it hasn't been my experience to see them waved around frequently.

I'm sorry, I thought you had lived here quite a while. Perhaps you stay in respectable areas where your experience of reality is limited.

Who said it was an illegal firearm, my district boss and many of his officials all carry handguns?

[whybother]

Another storm in a teacup. 5 years ago I watched a guy in Khaosan road walk down the road pointing a gun at people, he got ignored. In my village a neighbour every time he gets worked up stands in the road waving a gun around. Waving guns seems normal in Thailand, only pulling the trigger is seen as serious, even then it depends upon who's finger it is

I would have thought that anyone threatening army personnel with a hand gun, let alone an election candidate, would be more than a "storm in a teacup", and definitely stupid.

[anterian]

Another storm in a teacup. 5 years ago I watched a guy in Khaosan road walk down the road pointing a gun at people, he got ignored. In my village a neighbour every time he gets worked up stands in the road waving a gun around. Waving guns seems normal in Thailand, only pulling the trigger is seen as serious, even then it depends upon who's finger it is

It's hard to imagine, in this day and age, a person in public, brandishing a gun and looking like they might use it, being ignored by those in nearby vicinity. Screaming and running for cover seems a more likely and a more natural human reaction.

Agreed ... but it isn't hard to imagine someone with an agenda trying to downplay a PTP candidate in a redshirt village threatening officials doing their jobs.

Nice try

Re the incident in Khaosan road I was surprised at the lack of reaction myself, then I realise why, most of the crowd were farangs and it was the Israeli time of year

Do you know what that means?

[brianb1944]

Another storm in a teacup. 5 years ago I watched a guy in Khaosan road walk down the road pointing a gun at people, he got ignored. In my village a neighbour every time he gets worked up stands in the road waving a gun around. Waving guns seems normal in Thailand, only pulling the trigger is seen as serious, even then it depends upon who's finger it is

It's hard to imagine, in this day and age, a person in public, brandishing a gun and looking like they might use it, being ignored by those in nearby vicinity. Screaming and running for cover seems a more likely and a more natural human reaction.

Agreed ... but it isn't hard to imagine someone with an agenda trying to downplay a PTP candidate in a redshirt village threatening officials doing their jobs.

Nice try

Re the incident in Khaosan road I was surprised at the lack of reaction myself, then I realise why, most of the crowd were farangs and it was the Israeli time of year

Do you know what that means?

Nice try?? I thought he hit the nail pretty much on the head.

[anterian]

Nice try?? I thought he hit the nail pretty much on the head.

Hello Brian, come to join the anti anterian club, you are in great sporting company So you also think I have a redshirt agenda. I find this quite entertaining, two years ago I was kicked out of the Rainbow forum for being too sympathetic to the yellows, now I'm being accused of being a red sympathiser. Just goes to show that when you try to be neutral, just call things as you see them, you end up not pleasing anyone

Please don't all leap in and tell me I don't come across as neutral, you have made that quite clear already, of course if you are just upping your "posts" count go right ahead

[jdinasia]

Nice try?? I thought he hit the nail pretty much on the head.

Hello Brian, come to join the anti anterian club, you are in great sporting company So you also think I have a redshirt agenda. I find this quite entertaining, two years ago I was kicked out of the Rainbow forum for being too sympathetic to the yellows, now I'm being accused of being a red sympathiser. Just goes to show that when you try to be neutral, just call things as you see them, you end up not pleasing anyone

Please don't all leap in and tell me I don't come across as neutral, you have made that quite clear already, of course if you are just upping your "posts" count go right ahead

You have spent many posts trying to suggest that Thaksin has "mellowed" and that the yellows are as bad as the reds etc etc ---- all of which flies in the face of any realistic approach to looking at modern political history in Thailand (including real politik) --- yet you wish you were viewed as neutral ... well. It aint gonna happen.

Threatening officials doing their duty by a PTP candidate and henchmen armed with guns isn't a "storm in a teacup" -- to suggest so shows an obvious bias. To downplay it with (imho not very credible) anecdotes of gun toting fools (that apparently were not threatening anyone --- but I still doubt exist) shows how far that bias will reach.

[anterian]

Nice try?? I thought he hit the nail pretty much on the head.

Hello Brian, come to join the anti anterian club, you are in great sporting company So you also think I have a redshirt agenda. I find this quite entertaining, two years ago I was kicked out of the Rainbow forum for being too sympathetic to the yellows, now I'm being accused of being a red sympathiser. Just goes to show that when you try to be neutral, just call things as you see them, you end up not pleasing anyone

Please don't all leap in and tell me I don't come across as neutral, you have made that quite clear already, of course if you are just upping your "posts" count go right ahead

You have spent many posts trying to suggest that Thaksin has "mellowed" and that the yellows are as bad as the reds etc etc ---- all of which flies in the face of any realistic approach to looking at modern political history in Thailand (including real politik) --- yet you wish you were viewed as neutral ... well. It aint gonna happen.

Threatening officials doing their duty by a PTP candidate and henchmen armed with guns isn't a "storm in a teacup" -- to suggest so shows an obvious bias. To downplay it with (imho not very credible) anecdotes of gun toting fools (that apparently were not threatening anyone --- but I still doubt exist) shows how far that bias will reach.

Thank you for proving my point. Nice to know that you see yourself as a realistic person. How does it go, "He is not very realistic, he doesn't see it my way!"

[jdinasia]

"realistic approach" and "realistic person" are not one-in-the-same --- Then again .....

[lungmi]

Pairote has nothing to fear from the police, they are also red.

Tomato cops cannot stay quiet/

[Emptyset]

Threatening officials doing their duty by a PTP candidate and henchmen armed with guns isn't a "storm in a teacup" -- to suggest so shows an obvious bias. To downplay it with (imho not very credible) anecdotes of gun toting fools (that apparently were not threatening anyone --- but I still doubt exist) shows how far that bias will reach.

Isn't it biased to automatically believe Sansern's version of the story (given that he's not exactly the most credible guy around)? And to automatically assume that soldiers are merely doing their 'duty' - which is apparently educate people about drugs... couldn't this education - which I'm not sure should be anything to do with ISOC at all, particularly as it's in Bangkok and not some remote border village etc - wait until after the election? Especially given ISOC's track record of 'educating' voters about 'democracy' - i.e. trying to sway the vote?

'After the coup in September 2006, the junta set out to obliterate Thaksin's political leadership. A special taskforce of soldiers paid with public money was sent into the villages of the north and northeast on a hearts-and-minds mission against pro-Thaksin thinking. The tactics were based on the campaigns which mopped up the last traces of the communist movement in the 1980s. By brandishing their weapons, the soldiers would persuade people to transfer their allegiance.' http://www.robinlea....2/novictory.htm

'Gen Sonthi has also ordered the Internal Security Operations Command (Isoc), which has 700,000 staff nationwide under its command, to promote proper understanding of the constitution among rural people. Isoc spokesman Col Thanathip Sawangsaeng said provincial Isoc chiefs will use door-to-door tactics in their campaign to educate people so they will not be "tricked" into rejecting the draft charter. Focusing on two elements-people'sinvolvement in politics and medical welfare-they are expected to reach out to "millions" of voters, Col Thanathip said.' http://asiancorrespo...e-constitution/

'The role of the Internal Security Operations Command (ISOC), in particular, must be challenged, which PPP candidates claimed monitored their activities excessively compared to those of other parties. Human Rights Watch documented a case where three armed soldiers from ISOC were arrested by police while they were monitoring the house of Sa‐nguan Pongmanee, a PPP candidate in Lamphun. In provinces in the north, north‐east, and south,there was some resentment amongst voters of the military, either because of a perceived bias against the PPP or failure of the military government to deliver economic growth or security.'

'Regarding the role of the military, Mr. Magbual remarked "Though martial law has not been applied in a heavy handed way as in Pakistan, its presence is inconsistent with international norms. In Chiang Rai, our observers received credible information that the army coerced their own soldiers and intimidated PPP supporters."'

http://www.anfrel.or...ISSION_2007.pdf

Also see: http://www.hrw.org/e...oming-elections

Edited June 11, 2011 by Emptyset

[OzMick]

Threatening officials doing their duty by a PTP candidate and henchmen armed with guns isn't a "storm in a teacup" -- to suggest so shows an obvious bias. To downplay it with (imho not very credible) anecdotes of gun toting fools (that apparently were not threatening anyone --- but I still doubt exist) shows how far that bias will reach.

Isn't it biased to automatically believe Sansern's version of the story (given that he's not exactly the most credible guy around)? And to automatically assume that soldiers are merely doing their 'duty' - which is apparently educate people about drugs... couldn't this education - which I'm not sure should be anything to do with ISOC at all, particularly as it's in Bangkok and not some remote border village etc - wait until after the election? Especially given ISOC's track record of 'educating' voters about 'democracy' - i.e. trying to sway the vote?

'After the coup in September 2006, the junta set out to obliterate Thaksin's political leadership. A special taskforce of soldiers paid with public money was sent into the villages of the north and northeast on a hearts-and-minds mission against pro-Thaksin thinking. The tactics were based on the campaigns which mopped up the last traces of the communist movement in the 1980s. By brandishing their weapons, the soldiers would persuade people to transfer their allegiance.' http://www.robinlea....2/novictory.htm

'Gen Sonthi has also ordered the Internal Security Operations Command (Isoc), which has 700,000 staff nationwide under its command, to promote proper understanding of the constitution among rural people. Isoc spokesman Col Thanathip Sawangsaeng said provincial Isoc chiefs will use door-to-door tactics in their campaign to educate people so they will not be "tricked" into rejecting the draft charter. Focusing on two elements-people'sinvolvement in politics and medical welfare-they are expected to reach out to "millions" of voters, Col Thanathip said.' http://asiancorrespo...e-constitution/

'The role of the Internal Security Operations Command (ISOC), in particular, must be challenged, which PPP candidates claimed monitored their activities excessively compared to those of other parties. Human Rights Watch documented a case where three armed soldiers from ISOC were arrested by police while they were monitoring the house of Sa‐nguan Pongmanee, a PPP candidate in Lamphun. In provinces in the north, north‐east, and south,there was some resentment amongst voters of the military, either because of a perceived bias against the PPP or failure of the military government to deliver economic growth or security.'

'Regarding the role of the military, Mr. Magbual remarked "Though martial law has not been applied in a heavy handed way as in Pakistan, its presence is inconsistent with international norms. In Chiang Rai, our observers received credible information that the army coerced their own soldiers and intimidated PPP supporters."'

http://www.anfrel.or...ISSION_2007.pdf

Also see: http://www.hrw.org/e...oming-elections

Where did ISOC come into the picture?

Unit 315 is an anti-drugs unit which includes army, police and govt officials. It has 153 units, 115 of which operate in Bangkok, and this 2-man unit was handing out anti-drug questionnaires, not carrying out education. Apparently they consider this work important enough not to take a month or two off for the election.

The question is "Why does a political candidate feel the need to force this unit out of "his" area? "

[rubl]

Isn't it biased to automatically believe Sansern's version of the story (given that he's not exactly the most credible guy around)? And to automatically assume that soldiers are merely doing their 'duty' - which is apparently educate people about drugs... couldn't this education - which I'm not sure should be anything to do with ISOC at all, particularly as it's in Bangkok and not some remote border village etc - wait until after the election? Especially given ISOC's track record of 'educating' voters about 'democracy' - i.e. trying to sway the vote?

... rest removed

Isn't it biased to

- state as 'given' k. Sansern isn't exactly the most credible guy'

- link in ISOC whereas this is about the anti-narcotics unit

- suggest in a remote corner of Thailand drug suppression is ok, but not Bangkok where PTP asked to stop anti-narcotic actions for the moment

- give another link to ISOC which is not involved

The removed part is about the 2007 situation which has nothing to do with the incident discussed in the OP, that is assuming you want to try to be unbiased

Edited June 11, 2011 by rubl

[yellow1red1]

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/458074-thai-govt-wont-be-overthrown-no-coup-military-commanders/page__p__4337973__hl__prayuth__fromsearch__1#entry4337973

<<< Soldiers interfering with campaigning were going to get charged with treason. so much for that promise, and there will be no coup... hahahaha

handing anti crime literature CRAP. they don't interfefere with other parties...

[rubl]

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/458074-thai-govt-wont-be-overthrown-no-coup-military-commanders/page__p__4337973__hl__prayuth__fromsearch__1#entry4337973

<<< Soldiers interfering with campaigning were going to get charged with treason. so much for that promise, and there will be no coup... hahahaha

handing anti crime literature CRAP. they don't interfefere with other parties...

This requires an explanation. Do you mean to suggest that an anti-narcotics team going along it's legal business MUST be interfering with the PTP and that candidate who complained? How on earth did you get to the conclusion?

[samurai]

"However, she asked for relevant parties to "play by the rules".

Yes lets play by the rules.....Police should arrest and charge Khun Pairote Issaraseripong for threatening the soldier with a fire arm.

What would have happened if an "ordinary" Thai citizen had done the same thing ?......arrested and up on charges...simple

I am sure that the police will arrest and charge Pairote if there is evidence to prove the allegation. However, all we really have so far is a verbal confrontation together with the army sergeant's statement that Pairote "signalled" that he had a pistol. No one has actually said a firearm was seen.

How do you "signal" that you have a pistol ? Do you point under your jacket to indicate that there is a pistol there ? -- he could be indicating his wallet and offering money . Do you pretend to shoot with your pointed finger ? - as ib " bang, you're dead". Any "signal" is open to the sergeant's interpretation.

There was no allegation or evidence that Pairote said that he had a gun, or displayed a gun. .

Sorry but there seems to be no evidence of a threat with "a fire arm" -- only a senseless confrontation !

... eyewitnessed by someone who cannot count till 7.