Amnesty For Thaksin Not Wise : Sanan

[webfact]

ELECTION

Amnesty for Thaksin not wise : Sanan

By The Nation

Democrats say Yingluck has ulterior motive in 'reconciliation' stance

Chart Thai Pattana adviser Sanan Kachornprasart yesterday voiced reservations about raising the amnesty issue at this juncture, even though he believed the Thai people would eventually forgive former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra.

"If invited to join the Pheu Thai-led coalition, Chart Thai Pattana would respond after convening the party executive board to review the Pheu Thai stand on granting amnesty for Thaksin," he said.

Sanan said he was worried about opposition to expunge Thaksin's conviction and punishment. He hinted that an amnesty for Thaksin - and national reconciliation related to the war of political colours - were two separate issues.

Democrat spokesman Buranaj Smutharaks said Pheu Thai candidate Yingluck Shinawatra had an ulterior motive in linking the Thaksin amnesty as part of the reconciliation process.

"The people have been misled into believing the country could not be at peace without the Thaksin guilt being expunged," he said.

Buranaj said political turbulence stemmed from confusion as the Shinawatras linked their family interests to that of the country.

If Pheu Thai and Yingluck had honest intentions, they should clarify specific steps and individuals involved to bring about the reconciliation, he said, arguing Yingluck's ambiguous remarks on fence-mending were designed to rescue Thaksin.

Commenting on concern about outside interference in forming the next government, Democrat leader Abhisit Vejjajiva said Parliament would be the venue to elect the prime minister.

Abhisit dismissed speculation that the government would be formed inside the military barracks.

In regard to Sanan's offer to host reconciliation talks between the Democrats and Pheu Thai after the vote, he said he was uncertain what the talks would entail.

Should Sanan have a tangible idea on reconciliation, the talks could start at any time before the vote, he said.

He reaffirmed his stand that he would not condone a Thaksin amnesty. Turning to Yingluck's suggestion about conducting a referendum on Thaksin, he said the public should not be confused by mixing differing issues.

The amnesty, if granted, would mean absolving him of conviction and punishment, he said. The pardon, which at times was interpreted in layman's terms as forgiveness, could happen if the offender had acknowledged the conviction and served part of the penalty, he said, noting Thaksin had not served his two-year jail term.

Speaking on the sidelines of her campaigning in Chiang Rai, Yingluck said she did not want state officials to get involved in swaying votes.

She reaffirmed her stand that the winning party should have a first opportunity at forming the government. She also said she stood by her party's statement rejecting to team up with Bhum Jai Thai on the grounds of irreconcilable differences.

-- The Nation 2011-06-13

[Ricardo]

The Thai people will eventually forgive Thaksin, but don't mention the amnesty, just yet ?

Excellent piece of fence-sitting, there !

[lannarebirth]

The Thai people will eventually forgive Thaksin, but don't mention the amnesty, just yet ?

Excellent piece of fence-sitting, there !

I agree with that. Thais are a forgiving people and definitely would forgive him eventually. I think though, the requirement for that forgiveness may be that he disappear from the stage for awhile, maybe some contrition, maybe some atonement, maybe not involving himself in matters of state for awhile where he tends to destroy everything and everyone he comes in contact with.

[atyclb]

For an ipad 2 64 gig 3G add me to the list of the forgiving

Edited June 13, 2011 by atyclb

[hyperdimension]

I think though, the requirement for that forgiveness may be that he disappear from the stage for awhile, maybe some contrition, maybe some atonement, maybe not involving himself in matters of state for awhile where he tends to destroy everything and everyone he comes in contact with.

The fact that he does not retire and relax in peace with his billions is evidence of his megalomania.

Edited June 13, 2011 by hyperdimension

[steveromagnino]

The only logical way to reach reconciliation, is to keep the issues completely separate. However the entire Thaksin PR campaign is to link the issues completely.

I bet Sanan has rubbed the big man up the wrong way with this comment, and this may be a precusor to Chart Thai Pattana being able to play both sides of the field (which is completely in keeping with his own personal political stance and party choice) and importantly, to find a point of irreconciliable differences with which to either not join PT, or force a better deal. Along the lines of the BJT "we will go with PT" gambit. Said with complete mock sincerity.

It's pretty clear. If Thaksin feels that his court case was biased, then perhaps he should stand trial again with what is accepted by the main parties as a more impartial court for his further cases.

Of course, the main problem with this is being that he is obviously guilty of most of the charges he ran away from, he would lose.

Therefore, of course the approach with amnesty is linked directly to reconciliation by the PT party, because that is the ONLY way that he can avoid facing the charges he faces and also dismiss the charges he already was convicted for, by saying the way in which he was charged was illegal - nothing to do with whether he did it or not. Making a change to the constitution voted in by the majority of the people retrospectively would be quite odd to say the least, which is required to make the system under which he was charged defunct. Changing now to a new constitution isn't going to unwind the string that lead to his current conviction which cannot be appealed, so how it works to do it retrospectively is beyond my minimal brain power to understand.

So with that in mind, a more sensible man would say, ok, I will serve my time for what I was already convicted for, serve my 5 year ban, and then I will start afresh. And behind the scenes manouvere to have the other charges dismissed, as per the typical approach of overthrown non elected leaders in the past.

Imagine the statesman that would emerge in the media, from a self admitted willingness to spend 5 years (actually about 20 days) in jail surrounded by docile fan club officials and all the mod cons that money can buy. A further 4 years of goofing around sans wife and rampant behind the scenes political meddling as per the Newin/Banharn model, with a throng of Ubon and Udon local leaders chanting on cue at every possible occasion.

Only a completely arrogant moron would try for something more.

And given that's not what is going to happen, we can only welcome our very own Thai Berlusconi to go to jail. Go directly to jail. Do not pass go. Do not collect lucrative monopolies on GSM, pagers or satellites.

Edited June 13, 2011 by steveromagnino

[dave1212]

This amnesty sounds great! Can anyone serving time for fraud or corruption apply for it or do you have to have a family member in the Pheu Thai Party?

[tragickingdom]

Sanan knows better. Problem is that he is afraid of the military himself. Sanan has been visiting Thaksin on a monthly basis to work on an amnesty. But after the revelations from the Banharn family about how the DP was able to forma government after outright threats from Prayuth two years ago he is simply afraid. If amnesty for Thaksin is a bad deal he only means that it would mean that the cozy amnesty laws that the military prepared for themselves after the 2006 coup might hold up in the international courts and in Thai courts after a decade or two. after all as we see in Latin America in the end the likes of Prayuth eventually will end up in jail for raping democracy.

In a matter of fact it is a very good idea to give red and yellow and military except for those who ordered killings an amnesty. it is the only way forward.

[sirchai]

The Thai people will eventually forgive Thaksin, but don't mention the amnesty, just yet ?

Excellent piece of fence-sitting, there !

Time heels a lot. Thais' memory isn't that good. They all think about the promises they'd made. Almost in froint of my door a big poster saying: Tablet PC free...WIFI free for all childs......The 65 km from Sisaket to Ubon Ratchathani are almost all posters with Abhisit on destroyed. Yingkluck's posters every hundred meters. Can't see them any more.

ATM cards, all this bullshit...the problem is that the farmers and taxi drivers will buy the lies. :jap:

[whybother]

...

In a matter of fact it is a very good idea to give red and yellow and military except for those who ordered killings an amnesty. it is the only way forward.

Cool. That would mean no amnesty for Thaksin.

[hyperdimension]

But after the revelations from the Banharn family about how the DP was able to forma government after outright threats from Prayuth two years ago he is simply afraid.

Do you have your facts right? Prayuth was only appointed as Army chief in October 2010.

Where is there any evidence of "outright threats"?

Edited June 13, 2011 by hyperdimension

[virtualtraveller]

Eventually Historians will record that in Thailand, if you're rich enough to buy popularity you can get away with everything and the poor supported that thru the 2011 election. Thus we move towards a future entrenched with inequality and manipulated law enforcement.

[anterian]

The only logical way to reach reconciliation, is to keep the issues completely separate. However the entire Thaksin PR campaign is to link the issues completely.

I bet Sanan has rubbed the big man up the wrong way with this comment, and this may be a precusor to Chart Thai Pattana being able to play both sides of the field (which is completely in keeping with his own personal political stance and party choice) and importantly, to find a point of irreconciliable differences with which to either not join PT, or force a better deal. Along the lines of the BJT "we will go with PT" gambit. Said with complete mock sincerity.

It's pretty clear. If Thaksin feels that his court case was biased, then perhaps he should stand trial again with what is accepted by the main parties as a more impartial court for his further cases.

Of course, the main problem with this is being that he is obviously guilty of most of the charges he ran away from, he would lose.

Therefore, of course the approach with amnesty is linked directly to reconciliation by the PT party, because that is the ONLY way that he can avoid facing the charges he faces and also dismiss the charges he already was convicted for, by saying the way in which he was charged was illegal - nothing to do with whether he did it or not. Making a change to the constitution voted in by the majority of the people retrospectively would be quite odd to say the least, which is required to make the system under which he was charged defunct. Changing now to a new constitution isn't going to unwind the string that lead to his current conviction which cannot be appealed, so how it works to do it retrospectively is beyond my minimal brain power to understand.

So with that in mind, a more sensible man would say, ok, I will serve my time for what I was already convicted for, serve my 5 year ban, and then I will start afresh. And behind the scenes manouvere to have the other charges dismissed, as per the typical approach of overthrown non elected leaders in the past.

Imagine the statesman that would emerge in the media, from a self admitted willingness to spend 5 years (actually about 20 days) in jail surrounded by docile fan club officials and all the mod cons that money can buy. A further 4 years of goofing around sans wife and rampant behind the scenes political meddling as per the Newin/Banharn model, with a throng of Ubon and Udon local leaders chanting on cue at every possible occasion.

Only a completely arrogant moron would try for something more.

And given that's not what is going to happen, we can only welcome our very own Thai Berlusconi to go to jail. Go directly to jail. Do not pass go. Do not collect lucrative monopolies on GSM, pagers or satellites.

It's pretty clear. If Thaksin feels that his court case was biased, then perhaps he should stand trial again with what is accepted by the main parties as a more impartial court for his further cases.

This makes sense, I feel the court case was biased, the major factor in why I have some sympathy for his cause. The problem is how do you achieve an impartial court? In a country where the army can, and does, lean on anyone who does not think or act the way it wants, can an impartial court exist? Short of importing an international panel of judges, something Thailand would never accept, such a suggestion is a nice idea but it will never get off the ground.

[hyperdimension]

This makes sense, I feel the court case was biased

Thaksin would try to use his wealth to shift the bias towards him. He tried before but failed, possibly due to the amount being insufficient. But this time if there were another trial, he would have learned from his mistake and not be so stingy. Most people would accept a few billion, and Thaksin can afford to pay that if that is what is required.

Edited June 13, 2011 by hyperdimension

[Ricardo]

Bigger lunch-boxes all round, then ! Yummy !

[steveromagnino]

It's pretty clear. If Thaksin feels that his court case was biased, then perhaps he should stand trial again with what is accepted by the main parties as a more impartial court for his further cases.

This makes sense, I feel the court case was biased, the major factor in why I have some sympathy for his cause. The problem is how do you achieve an impartial court? In a country where the army can, and does, lean on anyone who does not think or act the way it wants, can an impartial court exist? Short of importing an international panel of judges, something Thailand would never accept, such a suggestion is a nice idea but it will never get off the ground.

Under a new constitution the supreme court could be relied on to be impartial.

Why not?

They were impartial when they charged him last time, but for the sake of appearances, why not give him another go. It's hard to get around the facts of blatant back dating documents, lying, deceipt etc...it's got the makings of a great channel 7 soapie.

However.....one questions whether Thaksin would believe any decision against him is ever impartial. It would be hard to find someone more sure everything he did was right unless we look at Italy, or perhaps at well known loud mouth Floyd Mayweather or the like.

Edited June 13, 2011 by steveromagnino

[anterian]

It's pretty clear. If Thaksin feels that his court case was biased, then perhaps he should stand trial again with what is accepted by the main parties as a more impartial court for his further cases.

This makes sense, I feel the court case was biased, the major factor in why I have some sympathy for his cause. The problem is how do you achieve an impartial court? In a country where the army can, and does, lean on anyone who does not think or act the way it wants, can an impartial court exist? Short of importing an international panel of judges, something Thailand would never accept, such a suggestion is a nice idea but it will never get off the ground.

Under a new constitution the supreme court could be relied on to be impartial.

Why not?

They were impartial when they charged him last time, but for the sake of appearances, why not give him another go. It's hard to get around the facts of blatant back dating documents, lying, deceipt etc...it's got the makings of a great channel 7 soapie.

However.....one questions whether Thaksin would believe any decision against him is ever impartial. It would be hard to find someone more sure everything he did was right unless we look at Italy, or perhaps at well known loud mouth Floyd Mayweather or the like.

This is the point, as I said I am sympathetic to Thaksin in this one instance, I feel the verdict was biased. Given a fresh trial with no back dated documents, and a truly impartial panel, then if if Thaksin did not accept the verdict this becomes irrelevant, it is how the public view the decision which counts.

However I'm not sure how a new constitution creates impartiality, external pressures still exist in thailand, the army being just one of them.

[MILT]

But after the revelations from the Banharn family about how the DP was able to forma government after outright threats from Prayuth two years ago he is simply afraid.

Do you have your facts right? Prayuth was only appointed as Army chief in October 2010.

Where is there any evidence of "outright threats"?

I believe you have been misinformed on this. True Prayuth has only been in that position from 2010? Show the evidence when you post rumors... Please.

[MILT]

The posers on TV just need to look at the scandal during his first go as PM. He barely made through the courts on corruption charges. It's all about patterns and how people do things. Nothing has change since the early days of Thaskin other than More greed and deception.

[jdinasia]

It's pretty clear. If Thaksin feels that his court case was biased, then perhaps he should stand trial again with what is accepted by the main parties as a more impartial court for his further cases.

This makes sense, I feel the court case was biased, the major factor in why I have some sympathy for his cause. The problem is how do you achieve an impartial court? In a country where the army can, and does, lean on anyone who does not think or act the way it wants, can an impartial court exist? Short of importing an international panel of judges, something Thailand would never accept, such a suggestion is a nice idea but it will never get off the ground.

Under a new constitution the supreme court could be relied on to be impartial.

Why not?

They were impartial when they charged him last time, but for the sake of appearances, why not give him another go. It's hard to get around the facts of blatant back dating documents, lying, deceipt etc...it's got the makings of a great channel 7 soapie.

However.....one questions whether Thaksin would believe any decision against him is ever impartial. It would be hard to find someone more sure everything he did was right unless we look at Italy, or perhaps at well known loud mouth Floyd Mayweather or the like.

This week, in a one-hour plenary meeting, 119 of 142 judges voted 103:4 in favour of rejecting an appeal of the February decision put forth by Thaksin’s legal representatives. The appeals panel stated that no new evidence, which would affect the prior decision, had been presented by Mr. Shinawatra’s legal council. Twelve judges present at the appeal abstained from voting.

http://www.pattayadailynews.com/en/2010/08/14/unanimous-rejection-of-thaksin-asset-seizure-appeal/

The land deal trial was cut and dried as well .... simple black-letter-law. Thaksin comes back without an amnesty in place first and all the other cases can move forward. One of the charges against him rates the death penalty if convicted.

[moe666]

Get over him coming back try him in absence.

[Ricardo]

Get over him coming back try him in absence.

I'm not an expert on Thai law, but I believe it would not be legal to try him in-absentia in the way you suggest, and any government should be working within the law, hence the need to change the law & make this blanket/selective-amnesty which PTP are working-on.

[Valentine]

The posers on TV just need to look at the scandal during his first go as PM. He barely made through the courts on corruption charges. It's all about patterns and how people do things. Nothing has change since the early days of Thaskin other than More greed and deception.

Yes, with an impartial panel of judges in the assets concealment case, just after he was first elected, Thailand would not be in the position it is now. No yellows, no reds, no killing of protesters & army personnel, no buildings torched.

[ianbaggie]

This amnesty sounds great! Can anyone serving time for fraud or corruption apply for it or do you have to have a family member in the Pheu Thai Party?

Only if you can prove that youve had $250 billion in your bank account for the last 4 years.

[wolfmanjack]

The posers on TV just need to look at the scandal during his first go as PM. He barely made through the courts on corruption charges. It's all about patterns and how people do things. Nothing has change since the early days of Thaskin other than More greed and deception.

I remember reading that at least one of the judges that voted in favor of thaksin said he took the will of the people into account when he made his decision. If it was strictly based on the law and the facts then it should have been a unanimous vote to convict.

[gemini81]

Eventually Historians will record that in Thailand, if you're rich enough to buy popularity you can get away with everything and the poor supported that thru the 2011 election. Thus we move towards a future entrenched with inequality and manipulated law enforcement.

it would go down as one of the first times too, where the poor were actually that ignorant and duped to support it as well.

[hellodolly]

The Thai people will eventually forgive Thaksin, but don't mention the amnesty, just yet ?

Excellent piece of fence-sitting, there !

I agree with that. Thais are a forgiving people and definitely would forgive him eventually. I think though, the requirement for that forgiveness may be that he disappear from the stage for awhile, maybe some contrition, maybe some atonement, maybe not involving himself in matters of state for awhile where he tends to destroy everything and everyone he comes in contact with.

How about he supports the families of all the red shirts who died doing his bidding. How about he pay every Baht spent cleaning up and reconstruction of the mess and deliberate destruction done at his bidding. How about he repay all the people who lost there means of making a living just because they were in the way of his downtown picnic.

I for one would be willing to consider forgiving him if he did the above. It would mean to overlook the damage he did to the reputation of Thailand and the money lost by a decrease in tourism. A good start would be a admittance that he should not have done all that and a sincere apology for doing it.

Any one thinks that is going to happen still believes in the tooth fairy. Does any one think he wants education for Thai's "NO" that would mean people can think and that is not a desirable thing for a man in his position.

[animatic]

The only logical way to reach reconciliation, is to keep the issues completely separate. However the entire Thaksin PR campaign is to link the issues completely.

I bet Sanan has rubbed the big man up the wrong way with this comment, and this may be a precusor to Chart Thai Pattana being able to play both sides of the field (which is completely in keeping with his own personal political stance and party choice) and importantly, to find a point of irreconciliable differences with which to either not join PT, or force a better deal. Along the lines of the BJT "we will go with PT" gambit. Said with complete mock sincerity.

It's pretty clear. If Thaksin feels that his court case was biased, then perhaps he should stand trial again with what is accepted by the main parties as a more impartial court for his further cases.

Of course, the main problem with this is being that he is obviously guilty of most of the charges he ran away from, he would lose.

Therefore, of course the approach with amnesty is linked directly to reconciliation by the PT party, because that is the ONLY way that he can avoid facing the charges he faces and also dismiss the charges he already was convicted for, by saying the way in which he was charged was illegal - nothing to do with whether he did it or not. Making a change to the constitution voted in by the majority of the people retrospectively would be quite odd to say the least, which is required to make the system under which he was charged defunct. Changing now to a new constitution isn't going to unwind the string that lead to his current conviction which cannot be appealed, so how it works to do it retrospectively is beyond my minimal brain power to understand.

So with that in mind, a more sensible man would say, ok, I will serve my time for what I was already convicted for, serve my 5 year ban, and then I will start afresh. And behind the scenes manouvere to have the other charges dismissed, as per the typical approach of overthrown non elected leaders in the past.

Imagine the statesman that would emerge in the media, from a self admitted willingness to spend 5 years (actually about 20 days) in jail surrounded by docile fan club officials and all the mod cons that money can buy. A further 4 years of goofing around sans wife and rampant behind the scenes political meddling as per the Newin/Banharn model, with a throng of Ubon and Udon local leaders chanting on cue at every possible occasion.

Only a completely arrogant moron would try for something more.

And given that's not what is going to happen, we can only welcome our very own Thai Berlusconi to go to jail. Go directly to jail. Do not pass go. Do not collect lucrative monopolies on GSM, pagers or satellites.

Yes, he has to make ALL charges against him appear political or he goes to jail a very long time, or never returns to Thailand for very long.

So it really is Make or Break for Thaksin... break sounds pretty good to me.

[hyperdimension]

But after the revelations from the Banharn family about how the DP was able to forma government after outright threats from Prayuth two years ago he is simply afraid.

Do you have your facts right? Prayuth was only appointed as Army chief in October 2010.

Where is there any evidence of "outright threats"?

I believe you have been misinformed on this. True Prayuth has only been in that position from 2010?

Prayuth set to take reins

By Avudh Panananda

The Nation

Published on August 4, 2010

Show the evidence when you post rumors... Please.

Your request should be directed to tragickingdom, in particular reference to his statement regarding "outright threats from Prayuth two years ago".

Edited June 14, 2011 by hyperdimension

[TAWP]

This is the point, as I said I am sympathetic to Thaksin in this one instance, I feel the verdict was biased. Given a fresh trial with no back dated documents, and a truly impartial panel, then if if Thaksin did not accept the verdict this becomes irrelevant, it is how the public view the decision which counts.

If there is no back-dated [faked] documents from the Thaksin-camp then they have no defense, hence he would still be judged as guilty...