Research Before You Use Alternative "Medicine"

[Deeral]

Before you waste your money on homeopathy chiropractic etc - why not look into the "theory" behind these?

Try this place for a start.....

Professor Ernst’s verdicts

Homeopathy No good evidence that it is effective as anything more than a placebo

Acupuncture Good evidence for some benefits, such as for nausea and vomiting and pain from osteoarthritis and pain from osteoarthritis. Little evidence that it is effective against other conditions

St John’s wort Good evidence for treatment of mild to moderate depression

Chiropractic Poor evidence for effectiveness, and potential for harm means it should not be recommended

Iridology Evidence suggests that examining the iris for diagnosing disease is ineffective

Source: Centre for Complementary Medicine, Exeter - UK

[moe666]

I just went to the Chiropractor today and his treatment worked wonders on my sore back.

I would suggest that before you placed all of your eggs in one basket you do plenty of reserch that includes conventional medicine as well.

From my own experience, conventional medicine isn't of much help unless they can cut it out or prescribe a pill for it and when the first pill doesn't work another and another. The only problem with this approach is they generally donot have you stop taking the other pills they prescribed.

Good luck on your health if all you see is a traditionally trained MD.

[Sheryl]

Actually from my reading the evidence on chiropracty is more mixed. A great deal depends on what the underlying problem is and also of course on the skill of the practioner. I would say though that anyone with significant back pain should have at minimum an Xray evaluated by an orthopedic specialist first and ask the doctor if there is any contraindication to chirpractic manipulation or massage..and if so, get the specifics of types of manuevers that need to be avoided.

Back pain due to muscle spams in my experience often responds well to various types of physical manipulation e.g. massage, chirpracty. Where it gets risky is where there is significant underlying structural abnormalities. Also need to be very very careful if osteoporosis is present.

[Tolley]

Interesting topic.

The established medical industry has sought for many years to discredit alternative health practioners. Of course they have very good reason to do so and that is because it threatens their income stream.

No doubt amongst the alternative medical practioners there are frauds, charlatans and incompetent practioners.

But there are millions of people out there who have benefitted from alternative practioners be they chiropractors, naturopaths, herbalist, acupuncturist or other sorts of alternative treatments.

The established medical community for the most part would have you believe that any perceived benefits can be explained by the so called 'placebo effect'. Interestingly enough many people only went to alternative treatments when traditional treatments failed. Why then was there no placebo effect when traditional treatments were undertaken?

We are lucky we have access to both traditional and alternative medicine. They both have their role to play.

I think alternative medicine is ahead leaps and bounds on traditional medicine when it comes to preventative medicine. Diet is poorly understood by the majority of tradional practioners. Further there are many herbal supplements that work for certain conditions that stop people having to depend on dangerous medications that in many cases can have nasty side effects.

If you need to get patched up quickly or you need surgery then tradtional medicine is really the only option and it works pretty well. And of course traditional medicine also caters for those individuals who want a quick fix and refuse to take control of their own health by making diet or lifestyle changes so in many cases it is the patients demanding quick fixes that is driving the traditional medicine approach.

[james24]

Homeopathy got completely blitzed by Richard Dawkins in one of his programs, worth a watch.

Its also worth remembering that drug companies have alot to spend on bribes-false information. I try everything and see what works,

[Nienke]

Research, right? That is exactly what I've done and am still doing.

http://nationalcenterforhomeopathy.org/files/Research-in-Homoeopathy.pdf

http://rustumroy.com/Roy_Structure%20of%20Water.pdf

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19371568

And how much can we trust the research done by Big Pharma and his followers? Just look what is hot news now with Mr. Murdoch, which isn't only limited to the UK, but has its claws worldwide: http://coto2.wordpress.com/2011/07/17/murdoch-and-vaccines-exposure-of-murdochs-crimes-expose-a-much-larger-story/

And this is only one example of many.

Not to mention the enormous amount of research (and prove) of the sharp increase of side-effects (sometimes fatal), chronic and auto-immune diseases, as a direct result of traditional medicines.

Am I against traditional medicines? No, I'm not. But I'm strongly against the lies, cheats, and deceivements that goes along with it, where primarily money rules and human true health is last place. As not much money can be earned on real healthy people, right?!

[moe666]

I have put up with reaccuring cellulitu in one or both of my legs for years. The infection started to manifest its self on a 3 month cycle. I would of course make the trip to Dr. for anti-biotics and it would clear up for a short time. A few years ago I started visiting a naturepath/ acuputurest who treated me with a combination of chinese herbal medicine and pharmacudical dosages of vitamins, no return of cellulitus for more than 4 years. This january a flare up while staying at a forest monastary. This required a 10 day hospital stay and more than a month on anti-biotics I finally just quick taking them as the infection wouldn't totally clear up. I finall started taking a chinese mushroom treatment after a week the infection finally cleared up.

there is a place for both alternative and traditional treatment but the politics on both sides are not much different than the current republican( tea party) democrat stand off going on in Congress. Also the lack of understanding from traditional grounded professionals on the benefits of alternative medicine poses a barrier. Yes there are websites pointing out the failure of alternative medicine, but the graveyards are filled with the failure of traditional medicine

[fullwhenempty]

Curious to see Modern medicine being called 'Traditional'.

I certainly research 'Alternative' therapies but tend to seek recommendations from others first, when it comes to action. I also think they need to be approached with realistic expectations. If the reasons why you got sick in the first place don't change, then how can anyone really help? If you have a herb in one hand and a cigarette, or Big Mac, in the other, you are undermining yourself from the start. The restaurant analogy also applies to Orthodox vs Alternative. If I walk into a Chinese restaurant, I'm not going to see Mexican Tortillas on the menu. Likewise, if I walk into my Doctors office, I'm not going to see Reiki or any other alternative option. It's simply not on the menu.

The Spa industry has many bogus treatments IMO. They are fashionable, expensive and pleasant. However, if you have a chronic or degenerative disorder, they are unlikely to help you. These are profit-driven businesses. Success with alternatives really depends on what condition you are trying to resolve. Taking one narrow aspect of a total healing system, like Acupuncture, from within Traditional Chinese Medicine and expecting it to heal you completely is unrealistic. Acupuncture may help for some conditions but for many it takes far deeper work.

Take herbs, for instance. The herbalist believes in his craft. He knows every herb, every action and can whip up a tincture for every ailment. He gives something to the patient, who may or may not respond but due to other factors, like poor lifestyle, he's not cured. So he trots off for a colonic. This makes him feel good for a week but he relapses and a few weeks later it's Head massage. The session is nice and he feels good for a day or two but his ailments are stubbornly refusing to heal. He's read urine therapy is magic and starts guzzling his morning output. He spends the next 15 years bouncing from therapy to therapy. A massage here, a supplement there. a weekend retreat and so on. His vocabulary is constantly expanding and there is nothing this person doesn't know about Alternative medicine. Except, he or she is still sick and possibly getting sicker. I've met people like this. I'm one of them. What he fails to understand is he needs not any one technique but ALL of them. At the same time, in large doses and for a sustained period. Addressing body, soul, mind, emotions and the 'energetic body'. It's no good exercising more if your problem is emotional. And it's no good meditating if the issue lies within your body. This is why I'm a fan of holistic methods. They cover all bases.

With a health-creating diet, juicing, exercise, sunshine, pure water, breathing, stress reduction, the belief in a higher power, hydrotherapy, herbs, cleansing, massage, flooding the body with nutrients. Don't you think your chances of recovering your health are far greater, than with an hour of Thai massage and a Tai Chi Class? Of course they are.

I regard alternative practitioners very positively. They've always been decent people and some are excellent at what they do.

If Homeopathy only works by placebo, what's wrong with that? Orthodox Medicine uses the Placebo effect. Homeopathy is fully supported by the Indian Government and exceedingly cheap for the people. They clearly believe in it. I've seen lengthy queues in India to see the best homeopaths.

My experience with an American Chiro (not in Thailand) was mixed. Whacked in the back by blocks of wood on a specially designed bed, my vertebra were certainly separated. Fair enough. The alarm sounded when the practitioner kept talking about 'subluxation' and recommended I return monthly. What is this, if not an effort to generate a revenue stream with no real justification? I never went back.

My session with an Osteopath was much better. He sorted a back problem. Only suggested I come back once to check the first session worked.

A Thai lady friend recovered from Bell's Palsy on one side of her face, after seeing an Acupuncturist. So I don't believe it has no merit.

You can research alternatives but what research do you do for Modern medicine? It's hidden behind a fog of jargon and impenetrable pseudo-Science.

[CobraSnakeNecktie]

Research everything or risk the consequences.

if you blindly trust your doctor or anybody then you just asking for it.

So many harmful drugs out there. Look at the numbers for NSAID complications. Huge numbers of serious side effects like irreversible liver damage and death.

Really organized medicine shakes a finger at alternative therapies that might be dangerous. Compared to what?

Alternative medicine is no different. The same human problems of greed, overconfidence and incompetence as every other industry.

Insurance companies are paying out quite a bit for Chiropractic, Acupuncture and Massage so they must see some cost benefit to those therapies.

Not sure Insurance company policies are all that confidence inspiring however.

[Latindancer]

Research is certainly the best thing to do. Not many people know that if you take St John's Wort for depression, it can make your eyes photosensitive, so if you don't wear sunglesses, you run a risk of developing cataracts.

[Deeral]

Interesting topic.

The established medical industry has sought for many years to discredit alternative health practioners. Of course they have very good reason to do so and that is because it threatens their income stream.

No doubt amongst the alternative medical practioners there are frauds, charlatans and incompetent practioners.

But there are millions of people out there who have benefitted from alternative practioners be they chiropractors, naturopaths, herbalist, acupuncturist or other sorts of alternative treatments.

The established medical community for the most part would have you believe that any perceived benefits can be explained by the so called 'placebo effect'. Interestingly enough many people only went to alternative treatments when traditional treatments failed. Why then was there no placebo effect when traditional treatments were undertaken?

We are lucky we have access to both traditional and alternative medicine. They both have their role to play.

I think alternative medicine is ahead leaps and bounds on traditional medicine when it comes to preventative medicine. Diet is poorly understood by the majority of tradional practioners. Further there are many herbal supplements that work for certain conditions that stop people having to depend on dangerous medications that in many cases can have nasty side effects.

If you need to get patched up quickly or you need surgery then tradtional medicine is really the only option and it works pretty well. And of course traditional medicine also caters for those individuals who want a quick fix and refuse to take control of their own health by making diet or lifestyle changes so in many cases it is the patients demanding quick fixes that is driving the traditional medicine approach.

Sadly a very weak and flawed argument. THe medical establishment is not actually involved. It is put science that tests the efficacy of any proposed treatment. ......and repeatedly the claims of both "mainstream" and "alternative" medicine fail to come true after lineal trials - the difference being that alternative medicine is not always regulated by governments so is allowed to continue.

(Diet is not "poorly understood" at all it is deliberately misinterpreted by some schools of alternative medicine to dangerous degrees)Chiropractic is based on a purely fallacious theory of energy flowing from "god" trough your body. By coincidence it includes certain physical massage techniques that coincide with perfectly normal physical massage practices - so your aches and pain will respond - not due to chiropractic but because thy occasionally use methods already used by the establishment - BTW - mainstream physiotherapy is not only much cheaper than chiropractic but SAFER - there is a lot of evidence to suggest that chiropractic can seriously damage spinal cord and result in stroke or paralysis.

Never let anyone near your back without X-rays first - and even then they need to be highly qualified.

[outofoz]

Never let anyone near your back without X-rays first - and even then they need to be highly qualified.

Wise words indeed...

Why people will let someone manipulate their back is beyond me. I have been to Chiropractors and osteopaths in my younger years following a bike accident...i was recommended by friends to try them out...I was then young and stupid....now i am older and only slightly stupid..

The treatments i received had short term placebo effect...I got the same benefit with massage I found out....Stretching and relaxation helped me the most...very simple and cheap.

get a good Thai massage...its basically the same as chiropractor work and a lot safer and cheaper!

[DanR]

It's important to keep in mind that there are two types of alternative medicine.

i) Treatments based on intervention. If you do something to the body, it's quite possible that it has a physical effect. At the most reasonable end of the spectrum you have things like herbal remedies (St John's Wort, traditional Chinese, etc) down to the woo-end, for example acupuncture, which is based on a ridiculous theory but there is at least physical intervention so something might happen. It might be worth investigating treatments in this are but even given the endemic corruption and mis-reporting of results in the pharmaceutical industry, in addition to the ineradicable problems arising from profit-driven medicine, there is not a great deal to recommend most of it.

ii) Treatments based on non-intervention. This would include things like homoeopathy, reiki or other such rubbish. It's quite conceivable that these have a placebo effect (and that can be quite significant) but unless you're prepared to throw about several centuries of knowledge about how the world works and embrace instead a profoundly ridiculous world-view, there is no reason to pay the slightest attention to any of these.

Edited July 31, 2011 by DanR

[Deeral]

It's important to keep in mind that there are two types of alternative medicine.

i) Treatments based on intervention. If you do something to the body, it's quite possible that it has a physical effect. At the most reasonable end of the spectrum you have things like herbal remedies (St John's Wort, traditional Chinese, etc) down to the woo-end, for example acupuncture, which is based on a ridiculous theory but there is at least physical intervention so something might happen. It might be worth investigating treatments in this are but even given the endemic corruption and mis-reporting of results in the pharmaceutical industry, in addition to the ineradicable problems arising from profit-driven medicine, there is not a great deal to recommend most of it.

ii) Treatments based on non-intervention. This would include things like homoeopathy, reiki or other such rubbish. It's quite conceivable that these have a placebo effect (and that can be quite significant) but unless you're prepared to throw about several centuries of knowledge about how the world works and embrace instead a profoundly ridiculous world-view, there is no reason to pay the slightest attention to any of these.

There is really only one kind of "medicine" and it is the type that is PROVEN to work - if it doesn't work it isn't medicine.

The placebo effet is well documented and established....for instance it has been shown that "capsule" shaped placebos are more effect than "tablet" shaped?

THe unfortunate thing about many alternative medicines is that they rely on the placebo to give some credence to their claims.....but the results of continued usage are usually nil or even harmful.

Most of the drug companies have been successfully prosecuted in the US for fraudulent behaviour - they are virtually crooks themselves and are experts at manipulating clinical trials to hide any poor results concerning their latest products.

But in the end it is the scientists at large who repeat the trials and study "the Big Pharma" trials that often show up these tricks.

All medical claims whether "big Pharma" or "Uncle Nobby's patented hair restorer" are all subject to the same sort of trial and it is usually the repetition of such trials that establishes or contradicts a particular claim; time and again Chiropractic, homeopathy and other "alternative medicines have been shown to have little or no benefit.

As for doctors themselves....well it is amazing how people do actually have blind faith in anyone in a white coat with a clipboard. Especially here in Thailand where an unregulated and unethical medical industry does anything it likes - even including "alternative" medicines within their own premises - so long as they can get a few extra bucks out of unsuspecting expats etc.

Edited July 31, 2011 by Deeral

[Sheryl]

Reminder: Health forum rule

"aggressive attempts to persuade other members to either adapt or abandon alternative vs. modern forms of treatment will not be permitted. Experience has shown that this invariably leads to arguments and flame fests that serve no useful purpose."

[Deeral]

Reminder: Health forum rule

"aggressive attempts to persuade other members to either adapt or abandon alternative vs. modern forms of treatment will not be permitted. Experience has shown that this invariably leads to arguments and flame fests that serve no useful purpose."

" alternative vs. modern forms of treatment" - this is a particularly inaccurate statement - As I suggested in the title - "Research" before taking the plunge - many "alternative" medicines - chiropractic and homeopathy for example are actually newer than mainstream medicine which has it's roots dating back 500 years.

To suggest that these medicines are "old" and have been about for centuries is seldom true - they are usually based on false science or the mass production of a plant that may or may not have been used in "traditional" medicine, but the main thing is it is easy to produce and avoids national medical regulatory laws.

The evidence about all medicines is available to all - the term "alternative" is euphemistic.

Basically anyone purporting to have a treatment has that treatment analyzed in clinical trials - these are not tied to any particular type of medicine - they are only concerned with proving the efficacy of a treatment or product.

Treatments that simply don't work and have failed to show otherwise in clinical trials then try to avoid the obvious by claiming "alternative" stays - this is simply a new name for quackery.

It does however allow unscrupulous people to continue to make money out of others' distress.

Often short-term relief or remission from another source is misinterpreted by the sufferer as evidence that his/her "alternative" treatment has worked - sadly not the case.

"Alternative" medicine does not exist - there is only medicine - by whatever method - the acid test is can it be shown to work - if not it should be exposed as the charlatanry it is.

People are being conned out of their money and worse still health by those who propose that alternative medicines "work" despite the scientific evidence against them.

Edited August 2, 2011 by Deeral

[fullwhenempty]

Reminder: Health forum rule

"aggressive attempts to persuade other members to either adapt or abandon alternative vs. modern forms of treatment will not be permitted. Experience has shown that this invariably leads to arguments and flame fests that serve no useful purpose."

" alternative vs. modern forms of treatment" - this is a particularly inaccurate statement - As I suggested in the title - "Research" before taking the plunge - many "alternative" medicines - chiropractic and homeopathy for example are actually newer than mainstream medicine which has it's roots dating back 500 years.

To suggest that these medicines are "old" and have been about for centuries is seldom true - they are usually based on false science or the mass production of a plant that may or may not have been used in "traditional" medicine, but the main thing is it is easy to produce and avoids national medical regulatory laws.

The evidence about all medicines is available to all - the term "alternative" is euphemistic.

Basically anyone purporting to have a treatment has that treatment analyzed in clinical trials - these are not tied to any particular type of medicine - they are only concerned with proving the efficacy of a treatment or product.

Treatments that simply don't work and have failed to show otherwise in clinical trials then try to avoid the obvious by claiming "alternative" stays - this is simply a new name for quackery.

It does however allow unscrupulous people to continue to make money out of others' distress.

Often short-term relief or remission from another source is misinterpreted by the sufferer as evidence that his/her "alternative" treatment has worked - sadly not the case.

"Alternative" medicine does not exist - there is only medicine - by whatever method - the acid test is can it be shown to work - if not it should be exposed as the charlatanry it is.

People are being conned out of their money and worse still health by those who propose that alternative medicines "work" despite the scientific evidence against them.

You have had it pointed you to you that most studies are flawed. You have had it pointed out to you that it's impossible to test many 'alternative' approaches, due to the fact that there are too many variables. You've been given examples from members who have had positive experiences, yet you can't stop your yapping. You've been asked to stop attacking 'alternative' medicine on several occasions yet you blatantly ignore this.

You are entitled to your opinion but it's highly insulting for you to dismiss the rational choices of millions and put it down to ignorance and superstition. Who do you think you are?

Half the planet cannot afford 'modern medicine' because it's too expensive. They get by in the same way they have been doing for thousands of years. Using healers who have perfected their craft over centuries and using methods which are endorsed by the WHO. It's pretty obvious that the only thing you know about them is the propaganda you have been fed.

The problem isn't others' ignorance.

It's yours.

[FBN]

Take it easy chaps...

We have had to close several previous threads on "alternative medicine" because of flaming and egos getting a bit out of hand. There is a very good discussion to be had here if we can keep it civil.

Just search for "psychosomatic illness" and you can clearly see where the need for different approaches to dealing with a particular "medical" problem arises from and why they are successful in many, but not ALL cases. Perhaps this is the underlying factor?

[cowslip]

Here's yet another unsupportable claim by homeopaths being challenged in court.

http://www.casewatch.org/civil/boiron/oscillococcinum/complaint.shtml

I quote "The complaint charges that the product (a) is nothing more than a sugar pill, ( has no impact on the flu or any symptoms that

accompany it, and © contains no molecules of its allegedly active

ingredient. "

" If a single molecule of the original

substance could survive the dilution, its concentration would be 1 in

100200-a number vastly greater than the estimated number of molecules

in the universe."

This is the problem with ALL homeopathic dilutions - they are physically impossible.

[fullwhenempty]

Here's yet another unsupportable claim by homeopaths being challenged in court.

http://www.casewatch...complaint.shtml

Be careful of anything you read from Stephen Barratt, he of 'Quackwatch' fame. He's an industry 'attack dog' whose sole purpose seems to be to dissuade you from trying anything except orthodox treatments and he does this by using several deceits.

1. He lumps obviously suspect treatments, with methods which are useful. To lead you to 'toss the baby out with the bathwater'.

2. He relies on negative publicity while dismissing anything positive.

3. He uses misleading statements, such as.. 'there has been no scientific proof'. What he doesn't say is that proof isn't possible due to testing requirements that don't fit the natural/alternative model. Nor does he inform you that absence of 'scientific' proof is often down to the fact that the industry won't conduct expensive trials on non-patentable products.

Much of psychiatry has no 'scientific' evidence. Where is the test for 'chemical imbalances' in the brain?

4. For some methods he fails to provide any evidence that they don't work. He falls back on nonsense such as... "A lot of things don't need to be tested [because] they simply don't make any sense." So much for scientific rigor.

5. His zeal for persecuting alternatives is not matched by any effort at all to expose the failings within conventional medicine, which he declares is 'beyond his scope'. Of course it is.

I read he's lost every court case he's attended.

Having see him interviewed and had several email exchanges with him, I would be very careful to verify any claims he makes. I found him a decidedly deceitful man. But do your own research.

[cowslip]

Here's yet another unsupportable claim by homeopaths being challenged in court.

http://www.casewatch...complaint.shtml

Be careful of anything you read from Stephen Barratt, he of 'Quackwatch' fame. He's an industry 'attack dog' whose sole purpose seems to be to dissuade you from trying anything except orthodox treatments and he does this by using several deceits.

1. He lumps obviously suspect treatments, with methods which are useful. To lead you to 'toss the baby out with the bathwater'.

2. He relies on negative publicity while dismissing anything positive.

3. He uses misleading statements, such as.. 'there has been no scientific proof'. What he doesn't say is that proof isn't possible due to testing requirements that don't fit the natural/alternative model. Nor does he inform you that absence of 'scientific' proof is often down to the fact that the industry won't conduct expensive trials on non-patentable products.

Much of psychiatry has no 'scientific' evidence. Where is the test for 'chemical imbalances' in the brain?

4. For some methods he fails to provide any evidence that they don't work. He falls back on nonsense such as... "A lot of things don't need to be tested [because] they simply don't make any sense." So much for scientific rigor.

5. His zeal for persecuting alternatives is not matched by any effort at all to expose the failings within conventional medicine, which he declares is 'beyond his scope'. Of course it is.

I read he's lost every court case he's attended.

Having see him interviewed and had several email exchanges with him, I would be very careful to verify any claims he makes. I found him a decidedly deceitful man. But do your own research.

I'm afraid you are not putting forward any evidence in support of homeopathy.

It seems you are you are misquoting and fabricating too.

As with all people without an argument, they tend to attack the messenger rather than the message.

it is the courts not "quack watch" who are taking the action.

Edited August 26, 2011 by cowslip

[Gary A]

I only have a short story about my bad back. I had been to a medical doctor and he recommended rest and mild exercise.

I listened to a friend of mine who recommended a chiropractor who supposedly works miracles on bad backs.

After a couple visits to this miracle worker, I had a difficult time even walking. I went back to the medical doctor. He proceeded to tell me how stupid I was and how I was about one visit to the chiropractor away from having to have surgery.

I did listen to him that time and followed his recommendations carefully. It did take quite some time but I eventually got better.

I would NEVER recommend back treatment from anyone other than a medical doctor who takes X rays and knows how to read them. I learned the hard way and believe me, it was a painful lesson.

[fullwhenempty]

I'm afraid you are not putting forward any evidence in support of homeopathy.

You are not posting any evidence against. Merely a link to a complaint, which has yet to be heard.

It seems you are you are misquoting and fabricating too.

"Seems' is a bit weak. Either I am or I'm not. You like 'evidence'. Where is it?

As with all people without an argument, they tend to attack the messenger rather than the message.

it is the courts not "quack watch" who are taking the action.

ALL people? I doubt that very much. I didn't say 'Quackwatch' were taking action in this case. Stop 'fabricating'.

Why are you fussed about homeopathy? Of all the issues to take a stance on, Homeopathy has to be one of the least harmful. The Indian government fully support Homeopathy. I've seen lengthy queues to see the best practitioners. Homeopathy is remarkably cheap in India. It helps millions and obviously meets a need otherwise it would wither on the vine.

If there has been illegality then, by all means, take action but if not, here's a novel idea. If it does no harm, leave it alone and allow people health freedom. The market will decide whether it survives or not. If you are going to take some kind of ethical position and want Homeopathy shut down, then take a good look at the orthodox system and ask why much of it hasn't been shut down long ago for the harm it causes? What kind of 'medicine' is so toxic it causes your hair to fall out? It's medieval.

Homeopathy is a soft target and I would question the motives of those who attack it. Panhandling lawyers, on prospecting trips, aren't the best guide.

There are far greater ills in this world to focus on.

[cowslip]

I'm afraid you are not putting forward any evidence in support of homeopathy.

You are not posting any evidence against. Merely a link to a complaint, which has yet to be heard.

It seems you are you are misquoting and fabricating too.

"Seems' is a bit weak. Either I am or I'm not. You like 'evidence'. Where is it?

As with all people without an argument, they tend to attack the messenger rather than the message.

it is the courts not "quack watch" who are taking the action.

ALL people? I doubt that very much. I didn't say 'Quackwatch' were taking action in this case. Stop 'fabricating'.

Why are you fussed about homeopathy? Of all the issues to take a stance on, Homeopathy has to be one of the least harmful. The Indian government fully support Homeopathy. I've seen lengthy queues to see the best practitioners. Homeopathy is remarkably cheap in India. It helps millions and obviously meets a need otherwise it would wither on the vine.

If there has been illegality then, by all means, take action but if not, here's a novel idea. If it does no harm, leave it alone and allow people health freedom. The market will decide whether it survives or not. If you are going to take some kind of ethical position and want Homeopathy shut down, then take a good look at the orthodox system and ask why much of it hasn't been shut down long ago for the harm it causes? What kind of 'medicine' is so toxic it causes your hair to fall out? It's medieval.

Homeopathy is a soft target and I would question the motives of those who attack it. Panhandling lawyers, on prospecting trips, aren't the best guide.

There are far greater ills in this world to focus on.

FHP - you seem a little confused - are you trying to say that Homeopathy is not being challenged in the courts?

OR

are you saying that Homeopathy and Chiropractic are proven valid medications?

[cowslip]

BTW - for those who think that "Alternative" medicine is the victim of "Big Pharm"

2 points

One it is not the pharmaceutical industry that is checking on them - they are checked on too by the same independant bodies.

Two - "alternative" medicine is HUGE - it makes MASSIVE amounts of money using unproven pseudo-science to persuade punters to buy their products.

Edited September 1, 2011 by cowslip

[robblok]

I'm afraid you are not putting forward any evidence in support of homeopathy.

You are not posting any evidence against. Merely a link to a complaint, which has yet to be heard.

It seems you are you are misquoting and fabricating too.

"Seems' is a bit weak. Either I am or I'm not. You like 'evidence'. Where is it?

As with all people without an argument, they tend to attack the messenger rather than the message.

it is the courts not "quack watch" who are taking the action.

ALL people? I doubt that very much. I didn't say 'Quackwatch' were taking action in this case. Stop 'fabricating'.

Why are you fussed about homeopathy? Of all the issues to take a stance on, Homeopathy has to be one of the least harmful. The Indian government fully support Homeopathy. I've seen lengthy queues to see the best practitioners. Homeopathy is remarkably cheap in India. It helps millions and obviously meets a need otherwise it would wither on the vine.

If there has been illegality then, by all means, take action but if not, here's a novel idea. If it does no harm, leave it alone and allow people health freedom. The market will decide whether it survives or not. If you are going to take some kind of ethical position and want Homeopathy shut down, then take a good look at the orthodox system and ask why much of it hasn't been shut down long ago for the harm it causes? What kind of 'medicine' is so toxic it causes your hair to fall out? It's medieval.

Homeopathy is a soft target and I would question the motives of those who attack it. Panhandling lawyers, on prospecting trips, aren't the best guide.

There are far greater ills in this world to focus on.

What a crazy statement, if it does no harm leave it be.

Cancer patient takes Homeopathy medicine, the medicine itself does no harm but delaying real treatment does. It is fraud and normally we prosecute fraud why not in this case. Selling something that does not work.

Also if big pharma's medicine dont work they should be banned too. I think its crazy how many children are diagnosed with ADH. Taking medicine at young age. crazy.

[Wavefloater]

Interesting topic.

The established medical industry has sought for many years to discredit alternative health practioners. Of course they have very good reason to do so and that is because it threatens their income stream.

No doubt amongst the alternative medical practioners there are frauds, charlatans and incompetent practioners.

But there are millions of people out there who have benefitted from alternative practioners be they chiropractors, naturopaths, herbalist, acupuncturist or other sorts of alternative treatments.

The established medical community for the most part would have you believe that any perceived benefits can be explained by the so called 'placebo effect'. Interestingly enough many people only went to alternative treatments when traditional treatments failed. Why then was there no placebo effect when traditional treatments were undertaken?

We are lucky we have access to both traditional and alternative medicine. They both have their role to play.

I think alternative medicine is ahead leaps and bounds on traditional medicine when it comes to preventative medicine. Diet is poorly understood by the majority of tradional practioners. Further there are many herbal supplements that work for certain conditions that stop people having to depend on dangerous medications that in many cases can have nasty side effects.

If you need to get patched up quickly or you need surgery then tradtional medicine is really the only option and it works pretty well. And of course traditional medicine also caters for those individuals who want a quick fix and refuse to take control of their own health by making diet or lifestyle changes so in many cases it is the patients demanding quick fixes that is driving the traditional medicine approach.

Nice to see that people are on to the large amount of misinformation that is generated from organizations like the AMA. The big pharmaceutical companies are downright dangerous and without the AMA firmly in their pocket, they would have to actually account for the claims they make and the inhumane prices they charge for their (mostly) snake oil.

[cowslip]

Interesting topic.

The established medical industry has sought for many years to discredit alternative health practioners. Of course they have very good reason to do so and that is because it threatens their income stream.

No doubt amongst the alternative medical practioners there are frauds, charlatans and incompetent practioners.

But there are millions of people out there who have benefitted from alternative practioners be they chiropractors, naturopaths, herbalist, acupuncturist or other sorts of alternative treatments.

The established medical community for the most part would have you believe that any perceived benefits can be explained by the so called 'placebo effect'. Interestingly enough many people only went to alternative treatments when traditional treatments failed. Why then was there no placebo effect when traditional treatments were undertaken?

We are lucky we have access to both traditional and alternative medicine. They both have their role to play.

I think alternative medicine is ahead leaps and bounds on traditional medicine when it comes to preventative medicine. Diet is poorly understood by the majority of tradional practioners. Further there are many herbal supplements that work for certain conditions that stop people having to depend on dangerous medications that in many cases can have nasty side effects.

If you need to get patched up quickly or you need surgery then tradtional medicine is really the only option and it works pretty well. And of course traditional medicine also caters for those individuals who want a quick fix and refuse to take control of their own health by making diet or lifestyle changes so in many cases it is the patients demanding quick fixes that is driving the traditional medicine approach.

Nice to see that people are on to the large amount of misinformation that is generated from organizations like the AMA. The big pharmaceutical companies are downright dangerous and without the AMA firmly in their pocket, they would have to actually account for the claims they make and the inhumane prices they charge for their (mostly) snake oil.

Virtually every Big Pharma company in has been convicted of illegal or criminal activities by the authorities in the States. THey are usually exposed by exactly the same type of bodies that expose the "alternative" industry. This is because they aren't interested in WHO or WHAt they are only interested in one thing - does the claim stand up to scientific testing.

BTW - tas for Homeopathy being harmless - take a look at their advice of vaccines and other proven medicines - many will suggest that Homeopathy is equally effective. - THere is no EVIDENCE to support this and of course it is HIGHLY DANGEROUS - not just to the poor buggers who don't take the vaccines, but when large numbers of people miss out on vaccination it actually increases the chances of a major outbreak.

It may also help to look at the "sets of beliefs" behind both Homeopathy and Chiropractic - they are not based on any scientific principles - in fact chiropractic is based on a theory of energy from God.....

[Sheryl]

This thread is slipping into the type of useless acrimony that gave rise to the Health Foprum rule it keeps breaking:

"aggressive attempts to persuade other members to either adapt or abandon alternative vs. modern forms of treatment will not be permitted. "

Closed accordingly..