Uk Settlement Refusal

[geordiephil]

its a refusal.............. :crying: 1) the english test she sat is not recognised by the secretary of state but before she took this test with the BRITISH COUNCIL she enquired if this was the right test for settlement visa and was told yes

2) i did not supply enough information as to where i live ie that the place is habitable and there enough room for the 2 of us ie a surveyors report as i live in a council flat why do i need provide a surveyors report; the place is rented, i dont own it, also i never showed i paying the rent,, ie a rent book, as i pay by direct debit a rent book would show nothing as it is not stamped, they could see on my bank statements that i was paying rent to the council, i wrote how many rooms there was in the flat when filling the application in with her,,,,, so what are VFS global there for if they let the application go through like this , thought it there job to make sure everything is fine, now we have to through an appeal,, we are both devastated :crying: :crying:

sorry no good news

phil

[bobrussell]

its a refusal.............. :crying: 1) the english test she sat is not recognised by the secretary of state but before she took this test with the BRITISH COUNCIL she enquired if this was the right test for settlement visa and was told yes

2) i did not supply enough information as to where i live ie that the place is habitable and there enough room for the 2 of us ie a surveyors report as i live in a council flat why do i need provide a surveyors report; the place is rented, i dont own it, also i never showed i paying the rent,, ie a rent book, as i pay by direct debit a rent book would show nothing as it is not stamped, they could see on my bank statements that i was paying rent to the council, i wrote how many rooms there was in the flat when filling the application in with her,,,,, so what are VFS global there for if they let the application go through like this , thought it there job to make sure everything is fine, now we have to through an appeal,, we are both devastated :crying: :crying:

sorry no good news

phil

Sorry to hear the news!

Check the date the English test was taken. Check it was not suitable at the time it was taken. There have been a lot of changes in approved providers. It may be that the provider was suitable at the time the test was taken. This would be a point to argue.

There is no requirement to provide a surveyors report. This is ludicrous but take photographs, provide a floor plan. Highlighting the direct debit payments would be acceptable for anything but the most hard-core bureaucrat. Ask for a letter from the council ASAP confirming address, payments are up to date etc. It is possible to get the Embassy to review the decision prior to a full appeal or new submission.

If the English test was wrong you may be struggling to get them to review the refusal.

One of the experts should hopefully be alone soon to give their opinions.

[geordiephil]

its a refusal.............. :crying: 1) the english test she sat is not recognised by the secretary of state but before she took this test with the BRITISH COUNCIL she enquired if this was the right test for settlement visa and was told yes

2) i did not supply enough information as to where i live ie that the place is habitable and there enough room for the 2 of us ie a surveyors report as i live in a council flat why do i need provide a surveyors report; the place is rented, i dont own it, also i never showed i paying the rent,, ie a rent book, as i pay by direct debit a rent book would show nothing as it is not stamped, they could see on my bank statements that i was paying rent to the council, i wrote how many rooms there was in the flat when filling the application in with her,,,,, so what are VFS global there for if they let the application go through like this , thought it there job to make sure everything is fine, now we have to through an appeal,, we are both devastated :crying: :crying:

sorry no good news

phil

Sorry to hear the news!

Check the date the English test was taken. Check it was not suitable at the time it was taken. There have been a lot of changes in approved providers. It may be that the provider was suitable at the time the test was taken. This would be a point to argue.

There is no requirement to provide a surveyors report. This is ludicrous but take photographs, provide a floor plan. Highlighting the direct debit payments would be acceptable for anything but the most hard-core bureaucrat. Ask for a letter from the council ASAP confirming address, payments are up to date etc. It is possible to get the Embassy to review the decision prior to a full appeal or new submission.

If the English test was wrong you may be struggling to get them to review the refusal.

One of the experts should hopefully be alone soon to give their opinions.

* You have failed to provide an original english language test certificate in speaking and listening from an English language test provider approved by the secretary of state for these purposes. The evidence that you have submitted comprises a progress report from St.john's bell language centre in bangkok and

letter from the british council in thailand stating that you sat a placement test with them. St.John is not on the UK Border Agency's list of approved language providers and a british council placement test is not an approved test under the rules as it is not measured against the provide an original certificate showing that you have met ther requirements (A1 on the CEFR) of an approved test, Consequently , I'm not satisfied that u have provided an original English language test certificate in speaking and listening from an English language test provider approved by the Secretary of State for these purposes and as required by paragraph 281, sub paragraph (i) (a) (ii) of HC395

* You have not provided evidence to establish your sponsor's ownership or rental of the property in which it is proposed you will live, or any indication that mortgage / rental commitments and other running costs are being honoured, You have also not provided sufficient evidence that your sponsor occupies the address. Equally there is no evidence to establish that the property is suitable , as required in the Housing Act 1985. This could be demonstrated by way of an independent surveyor's report but you have not included such a report in your application. Consequently I am not satisfied that there will adequate accommodation for the parties and any dependants without recourse to public funds in accomodation which they own or occupy exclusively as required by paragrah 281, sub paragraph(iv) of HC395

I have therefore refuse your application because I'm not satisfied, on the balance of probabilities,that you meet all of the requirements of the relevant paragraph of the United Kingdom Immigration Rules

if any one knows of test centre for english test i be grateful , as reading list is not very clear??/

[bobrussell]

OK seems to be a screw up on the language certificate side of things. I wonder why this was not picked up by VFS Global. They are there (and being paid a fee) to ensure applications are complete.

The world has gone mad if an applicant has to provide a surveyors report on the property. Fairly recently they demanded a Land Registry report from an applicant!! Bonkers!

[toddmeister]

"if any one knows of test centre for english test i be grateful , as reading list is not very clear??/ "

Hi Phil,

Sorry to here about the refusal. There are now only three test centers in Thailand for the English test:- http://www.vfs-uk-th.com/images/A1_Testing.pdf

Cheers

[bobrussell]

I am not sure if you can submit the certificate (assuming your wife can take the test very soon) and supply the extra evidence regarding the housing and have the ECO re-examine the application.

An appeal seems to be a lengthy process so it may be quicker to re-apply (at a price of course). I would probably chance it and get your wife to do the A1 test ASAP. It will cost you nothing extra and just might work. The Embassy is not known for being particularly flexible in these matters.

May be worth starting a new thread to get more advice. It will be more visible to other members.

[englishinsiam]

Sorry to hear of your news

I can't advise on the English Test as a new one would not be allowed to be taken account on the Appeal. The Appeal will only take into account the information the ECO had on the date of the application.

You should put in the rental contract with the council the rest of the blurb is standard and I think if you have that then you'll be okay.

Here was our circumstance.

We are staying with my mum and dad and when we applied for our Visa we put in a copy of their Secured Tenancy Agreement plus an invitation to stay letter from my Mum and 2 Utility Bills to show she lives here. Sadly you have to spell everything out to them for them to see you have covered all the bases.

Maybe 7by7 or VisasPlus will be along here soon to advise from a professional standpoint.

7by7 usually says start a new thread with a copy of the refusal for it to be discussed on it's own thread so you could pre-empt that by doing that now.

Whatever course you take good luck.

[7by7]

Indeed, it would be better to start a new thread rather than have advice mixed up with other posts in the waiting times one.

I have, therefore, done so and moved the posts to here. Hope that is acceptable.

I see little hope of any appeal being successful. If it was just the accommodation issue, then you could supply the missing information and probably succeed; but there is also the matter of her not having the correct certificate of her English ability.

You say that she asked if it was the right test. Who did she ask? Does she have the answer in writing?

The English certificate she supplied was not correct; therefore on that alone I feel any refusal will be upheld at appeal. Taking the correct test now and submitting that with the appeal will not help. The appeals tribunal will decide if the refusal was correct based upon her circumstances at the time. That her circumstances have subsequently changed, i.e. she has since taken the correct test, will not be a factor considered by the tribunal.

On the accommodation front, the suggestion of a surveyors report in the refusal is just that; a suggestion of one way of showing that the property is suitable. As a tenant another, and more simple, way of doing this would be a letter from your landlord confirming that she can live there and that there is room for her.

What evidence of accommodation did you provide?

I think that the only option is for her to take the correct test and for you to obtain the required evidence of accommodation and then submit a new application.

However, both ThaiVisaExpress and VisaPlus have far more knowledge and experience in this area, so they may be able to offer alternative advice.

It is not the job of VFS staff to decide on the quality of any evidence submitted with an application. They will check that the evidence is there, but they are not qualified to judge whether or not that evidence shows the criteria for the visa are met. That is the ECO's job.

Edited July 20, 2011 by 7by7

[aland2012]

Oh Phil, so sorry to hear the news about your wifes visa. Makes me wonder now about the test place my wife went too.

Alan Day

Edited July 20, 2011 by aland2012

[FarrangKeeNok]

sorry to hear about this phil , i rent from the council and all i supplied was a copy of the lease and some pictures for them , no rent cards or proof of paying , not sure if its the same type of visa i applied for but it is a fiancee settlement visa

[bifftastic]

I reckon you should get the English certificate sorted out, and by 'sorted out' I don't mean let the place you're about to pay, tell you 'yes it's fine'

Get the list of approved places from the UK embassy.

As for your flat, showing them the money going out of your account to the council doesn't prove anything other than you're paying the council for something, could be anything, council tax you owed from before, whatever. What you'll need is a tenancy agreement, with your name on it, council tax bill as well won't hurt. Chuck in the leccy bills, also with your name on it, and they won't be able to say you haven't proved you live there.

As other have said, I think an appeal would be a waste of time as they won't judge that on new evidence that you didn't supply in the first place, only on if the decision was right based on what you did give them.

Do your homework, get everything right, then apply again.

Good luck,

Biff

[7by7]

As other have said, I think an appeal would be a waste of time as they won't judge that on new evidence that you didn't supply in the first place, only on if the decision was right based on what you did give them.

Not quite.

Appellants can submit new evidence, and the tribunal will consider it. But only if it pertains to the appellant's circumstances at the time of the original application and refusal.

I agree, though, that any appeal is unlikely to succeed. As I said before; the appeals tribunal will decide if the refusal was correct based upon her circumstances at the time. That her circumstances have subsequently changed, i.e. she has since taken the correct test, will not be a factor considered by the tribunal.

[kunash]

sorry to hear of the refusal, and good luck Phil and your wife for the appeal / re-application

[bifftastic]

As other have said, I think an appeal would be a waste of time as they won't judge that on new evidence that you didn't supply in the first place, only on if the decision was right based on what you did give them.

Not quite.

Appellants can submit new evidence, and the tribunal will consider it. But only if it pertains to the appellant's circumstances at the time of the original application and refusal.

I agree, though, that any appeal is unlikely to succeed. As I said before; the appeals tribunal will decide if the refusal was correct based upon her circumstances at the time. That her circumstances have subsequently changed, i.e. she has since taken the correct test, will not be a factor considered by the tribunal.

Thanks for the clarification

[VisasPlus]

I agree with all that has been said. I don't see how you can get around the fact that you did not provide a test pass certificate from an approved provider. The visa officer has not made any error in law, nor has he misused his judgment. The refusal was based on fact. Regarding the accommodation, that should be easy to get right for the next application. I also don't think any appeal will succeed, although you can submit the appeal and a new application at the same time. The appeal will take longer to resolve than the new application.

[geordiephil]

I agree with all that has been said. I don't see how you can get around the fact that you did not provide a test pass certificate from an approved provider. The visa officer has not made any error in law, nor has he misused his judgment. The refusal was based on fact. Regarding the accommodation, that should be easy to get right for the next application. I also don't think any appeal will succeed, although you can submit the appeal and a new application at the same time. The appeal will take longer to resolve than the new application.

the test centre was an approved provider and still is on the list ie British Council, i was with my wife when she enquired and she made it quite plain what test she required i went with her for the test she was there 2 hours in which she sat the 2 modules she was privided with the certificate and told that was the right one for ukba????

[bangkockney]

What test did she supposedly sit? What does it say on the certificate? Better still, scan and post it.

The BC is an official test centre for IELTS. They don't offer own branded tests as far as I know.

I agree with all that has been said. I don't see how you can get around the fact that you did not provide a test pass certificate from an approved provider. The visa officer has not made any error in law, nor has he misused his judgment. The refusal was based on fact. Regarding the accommodation, that should be easy to get right for the next application. I also don't think any appeal will succeed, although you can submit the appeal and a new application at the same time. The appeal will take longer to resolve than the new application.

the test centre was an approved provider and still is on the list ie British Council, i was with my wife when she enquired and she made it quite plain what test she required i went with her for the test she was there 2 hours in which she sat the 2 modules she was privided with the certificate and told that was the right one for ukba????

Edited July 21, 2011 by bangkockney

[beano2274]

In one post the OP states a placement test, this is used by language centers to determine a students ability before putting them in a class.

[bangkockney]

In one post the OP states a placement test, this is used by language centers to determine a students ability before putting them in a class.

I know what a placement test is, and BC Thailand does offer them (in order to provide recommendation as to which courses to study).

The BC placement test includes a 40 minute written test and a 5-10 minute speaking test, costs 600 Baht. The combined test should not take more than 1 hour.

The refusal notice references a BC placement test, but this has not yet been confirmed hence my question to the OP. It seems the details the OP has provided do not match the description of a BC placement test.

OP should confirm this was the test taken at BC Bangkok or provide details of what is on the "certificate" his partner was issued.

[7by7]

The British Council may be an approved provider, but it seems that she did not provide a certificate from them.

From the part of the refusal notice quoted

The evidence that you have submitted comprises a progress report from St.john's bell language centre in bangkok and

letter from the british council in thailand stating that you sat a placement test with them. St.John is not on the UK Border Agency's list of approved language providers and a british council placement test is not an approved test under the rules

Seems pretty clear to me.

Of course, the ECO could have completely misread the evidence, but, to be frank, I think it more likely that Geordiephil's wife misunderstood what she was told about the documents she was being given by the language centre and the British Council.

Geordiephil, if you do post copies of any certificates etc., please remove her name and any other identifying info first.

[bangkockney]

I agree, but there is a discrepancy. The OP refers to a "certificate", the refusal notice refers to a "letter". Something that the OP needs to clear up, hence my question back to him.

The British Council may be an approved provider, but it seems that she did not provide a certificate from them.

From the part of the refusal notice quoted

The evidence that you have submitted comprises a progress report from St.john's bell language centre in bangkok and

letter from the british council in thailand stating that you sat a placement test with them. St.John is not on the UK Border Agency's list of approved language providers and a british council placement test is not an approved test under the rules

Seems pretty clear to me.

Of course, the ECO could have completely misread the evidence, but, to be frank, I think it more likely that Geordiephil's wife misunderstood what she was told about the documents she was being given by the language centre and the British Council.

Geordiephil, if you do post copies of any certificates etc., please remove her name and any other identifying info first.

[aland2012]

Dear Phil, let us know how you get on buddy with sorting everything out. All the best

Alan Day

:jap: :jap: :jap:

[Stabbo-Lad]

All the best for you both on this one Phil. I really feel for you.

Hope you get it sorted asap.

SL.

[thaigold]

To many readers this language requirement for spouses of English citizens seems exclusionary and unfair. I would suggest the Foreign Office perform a due diligence inquiry on British war brides in the forties and fifties.

I had a British acquaintance in California whose wife (German) would weep and wax poetic when the subject of Hitler came up. MaybeThailand should require a certain level of proficiency in Thai prior to granting marriage licenses for Thai / British unions.

Shame on Britain.

Edited July 24, 2011 by thaigold

[VisasPlus]

To many readers this language requirement for spouses of English citizens seems exclusionary and unfair. I would suggest the Foreign Office perform a due diligence inquiry on British war brides in the forties and fifties.

I had a British acquaintance in California whose wife (German) would weep and wax poetic when the subject of Hitler came up. MaybeThailand should require a certain level of proficiency in Thai prior to granting marriage licenses for Thai / British unions.

Shame on Britain.

thaigold, I find your post confusing. What are you suggesting the Foreign Office do ? I understand the term "due diligence", but I don't understand the relevance to English testing.

The Thai government already requires a (high) level of proficiency in the Thai language for permanent residence in Thailand. Most spouses, however, are here on temporary ( one year) extensions of stay, not permament residence. The current UK English requirement is for spouses who wish to settle, ie permanent residence in the UK. The standard of English required to obtain a settlement visa for the UK is likely to be raised soon if the proposed family migration requirements are put into place. A link to an earlier post on those requirements is here:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/482816-uk-government-launches-consultation-on-family-migration/

I share your concerns about language testing. You should read the consulation document and make your feelings known by completing the questionnaire.

[bifftastic]

To many readers this language requirement for spouses of English citizens seems exclusionary and unfair. I would suggest the Foreign Office perform a due diligence inquiry on British war brides in the forties and fifties.

I had a British acquaintance in California whose wife (German) would weep and wax poetic when the subject of Hitler came up. MaybeThailand should require a certain level of proficiency in Thai prior to granting marriage licenses for Thai / British unions.

Shame on Britain.

As far as I'm aware, it's not a requirement that someone marrying a British citizen should be able to speak, read/write and understand basic English. It only becomes a requirement if a person, married or not, wants to live permanently in the UK. The fact that this didn't used to be a requirement doesn't really come into it, in my opinion.

In the UK we have had a lot of immigrants with no English skills whatsoever, this causes many problems within our society. Every document produced by my local council is printed in, at least, five different languages!

I often encounter adults who, in order to complete the simplest of tasks, need to have their UK educated children with them as translators, I think it's perfectly reasonable to expect anyone who wants to come and live here permanently to have a basic grasp of the language.

With regard to Thailand, I also believe that, as part of the permanent residence application, there are tests in the Thai language.

As for the OP, I hope he and his wife can get things sorted out as soon as possible.

Biff

[garrfeild]

its a refusal.............. :crying: 1) the english test she sat is not recognised by the secretary of state but before she took this test with the BRITISH COUNCIL she enquired if this was the right test for settlement visa and was told yes

2) i did not supply enough information as to where i live ie that the place is habitable and there enough room for the 2 of us ie a surveyors report as i live in a council flat why do i need provide a surveyors report; the place is rented, i dont own it, also i never showed i paying the rent,, ie a rent book, as i pay by direct debit a rent book would show nothing as it is not stamped, they could see on my bank statements that i was paying rent to the council, i wrote how many rooms there was in the flat when filling the application in with her,,,,, so what are VFS global there for if they let the application go through like this , thought it there job to make sure everything is fine, now we have to through an appeal,, we are both devastated :crying: :crying:

sorry no good news

phil

Sorry to hear the news!

Check the date the English test was taken. Check it was not suitable at the time it was taken. There have been a lot of changes in approved providers. It may be that the provider was suitable at the time the test was taken. This would be a point to argue.

There is no requirement to provide a surveyors report. This is ludicrous but take photographs, provide a floor plan. Highlighting the direct debit payments would be acceptable for anything but the most hard-core bureaucrat. Ask for a letter from the council ASAP confirming address, payments are up to date etc. It is possible to get the Embassy to review the decision prior to a full appeal or new submission.

If the English test was wrong you may be struggling to get them to review the refusal.

One of the experts should hopefully be alone soon to give their opinions.

* You have failed to provide an original english language test certificate in speaking and listening from an English language test provider approved by the secretary of state for these purposes. The evidence that you have submitted comprises a progress report from St.john's bell language centre in bangkok and

letter from the british council in thailand stating that you sat a placement test with them. St.John is not on the UK Border Agency's list of approved language providers and a british council placement test is not an approved test under the rules as it is not measured against the provide an original certificate showing that you have met ther requirements (A1 on the CEFR) of an approved test, Consequently , I'm not satisfied that u have provided an original English language test certificate in speaking and listening from an English language test provider approved by the Secretary of State for these purposes and as required by paragraph 281, sub paragraph (i) (a) (ii) of HC395

* You have not provided evidence to establish your sponsor's ownership or rental of the property in which it is proposed you will live, or any indication that mortgage / rental commitments and other running costs are being honoured, You have also not provided sufficient evidence that your sponsor occupies the address. Equally there is no evidence to establish that the property is suitable , as required in the Housing Act 1985. This could be demonstrated by way of an independent surveyor's report but you have not included such a report in your application. Consequently I am not satisfied that there will adequate accommodation for the parties and any dependants without recourse to public funds in accomodation which they own or occupy exclusively as required by paragrah 281, sub paragraph(iv) of HC395

I have therefore refuse your application because I'm not satisfied, on the balance of probabilities,that you meet all of the requirements of the relevant paragraph of the United Kingdom Immigration Rules

if any one knows of test centre for english test i be grateful , as reading list is not very clear??/

Sorry to hear about the refusal, But I noticed you said you don't own the council flat, but you are paying the rent, which you get from tenants who you have rented the flat out to! I just wondered about the legality of doing this, do your council allow you to sub-let the flat? Could that be the main reason of the refusal? Even though they have also refused on language skills. As you can see by the paragraph above, they also state that they don't want new arrivals to draw on public funds, ie social services.

Not that it's any of my business but you sure you can tick all the boxes other than the that which has been refused. After all they don't have to give a complete list of reasons, do they?

[bangkockney]

OP clearly states he is paying rent to the council for the flat he lives in, so the above is a bit much.

[7by7]

Indeed, the OP does not say anywhere that he is sub letting the flat.

The accommodation part of the refusal was due, according to the parts of the refusal notice quoted, to geordiephil not providing sufficient evidence that the accommodation was suitable; no mention of him sub letting!

The mention of public funds in the refusal is standard wording.

Garrfield, I think you owe geordiephil an apology.

[7by7]

To many readers this language requirement for spouses of English citizens seems exclusionary and unfair. I would suggest the Foreign Office perform a due diligence inquiry on British war brides in the forties and fifties.

As there was no requirement in the forties and fifties for those seeking settlement in the UK as a spouse to satisfy any language requirement; your comments on war brides are totally irrelevant.

As for the reasons for having a language requirement, bifftastic has explained them very well.

Note to all; stick to the topic; which is advice to geordiephil on his wife's situation. If you wish to discuss the English requirement there are plenty of topics already doing so.

All future off topic posts will be deleted.