Two Palestinian Civilians Killed During Raid On West Bank Refugee Camp

[Ulysses G.]

As I said, the Stern Gang and Irgun were made illegal by the governmet of Israel and as far as retaliations for rocket attacks goes, do not fire them if you do not want to get fired on in return.

Edited August 5, 2011 by Ulysses G.

[Steely Dan]

Apart from all that, these folks are going to have a very difficult time viably existing as an independent state.

But that's the whole point, they are ethnic arabs, identical to those in Syria or Jordan, except for the mythical Palestinian identity constructed in 1967. Their raison d'etre, and the only reason they were not absorbed into Countries neighbouring Israel, is to stop Israel existing as an independent Jewish state, not to form a viable state in their own right.

[uptheos]

Of couse, the Israelis retaliated with F16 strikes.

But they only destroyed two Gaza city training facilities, operated by the armed wing of Hamas.......I really don't understand why Israel keeps letting them off so lightly?

[snarky66]

As much as I support Israel & you can class that as "ardent" I have always thought shooting stone throwers as way over the top.

Even rubber bullets kill.

I am cool with shooting them with bean bag shotguns, tasers etc. Non lethal stuff. Maybe whatever form of pepper spray is the most noxious. Israeli's can be as brutal as Russians sometimes.

[snarky66]

Of couse (sic), the Israelis retaliated with F16 strikes.

Cobra gunships are so much more effective. Some hellfire missiles. Bam. Problem over.

[Pakboong]

Apart from all that, these folks are going to have a very difficult time viably existing as an independent state.

But that's the whole point, they are ethnic arabs, identical to those in Syria or Jordan, except for the mythical Palestinian identity constructed in 1967. Their raison d'etre, and the only reason they were not absorbed into Countries neighbouring Israel, is to stop Israel existing as an independent Jewish state, not to form a viable state in their own right.

We agree that these characters will likely make a mess of things. In fact, I don't think I have ever said otherwise.

[snarky66]

Here's another theory. They are incapable of self rule.

[Pakboong]

Here's another theory. They are incapable of self rule.

Unfortunate, but likely. I guess the question is, do they have a right to fail? I don't have an answer for that one.

My main point was to watch for provocation and rockets landing in the desert. It has come to pass. Nothing more to really be considered. If these people are so stupid that that they simply cannot resist firing rockets at this point in their history, they deserve whatever happens to them.

There are internal interest outside of the governing bodies whose purpose benefits from the struggle. It is unlikely that Hamas is sponsoring rocket attacks at this point. My curiosity is how that escapes many. Not a conspiracy theory, simply interesting.

[Steely Dan]

I suspect that other extremists are operating from Gaza, such as Salafist extremists or Al Qaeda, these are sometimes useful to Hamas who would like others to attack the Israelis by proxy. Remember that Hamas have never recognized Israel's right to exist and so they would be happy to use any means to stop Israel negotiating with Abbas and putting them on the spot for their refusal to do the one thing which would make peace possible. Blowing their chances for peace talks is only illogical if viewed from the premise they actually desire their own state existing alongside Israel.

It is a game without end and was never designed to end whilst Israel still exists.

[uptheos]

It is a game without end and was never designed to end whilst Israel still exists.

Yep!

Nothing short of the total annihilation of Israel will satisfy them.

But we all know that isn't going to happen don't we?

Edited August 5, 2011 by uptheos

[Pakboong]

I suspect that other extremists are operating from Gaza, such as Salafist extremists or Al Qaeda, these are sometimes useful to Hamas who would like others to attack the Israelis by proxy. Remember that Hamas have never recognized Israel's right to exist and so they would be happy to use any means to stop Israel negotiating with Abbas and putting them on the spot for their refusal to do the one thing which would make peace possible. Blowing their chances for peace talks is only illogical if viewed from the premise they actually desire their own state existing alongside Israel.

It is a game without end and was never designed to end whilst Israel still exists.

Certainly plausible.

[coma]

Another case of poorly trained IDF personnel pissing their pants when they get a few rocks thrown at them. These clowns need to learn how to apprehend individual using non lethal force like most 'civil' military / law enforcement agencies around the modern world do everyday.

When I was a young wipper snapper on operations with the military , if I shot and killed all the people who threw rocks at us, the body count would be huge. And I would be in jail for murder. Maybe the IDF training tool is simply watching a few movies such as Wyatt Earp, Tombstone and other such cowboy movies.

[Credo]

I don't know about the training of the IDF, but I doubt it has much to do with spaghetti Westerns from the 50's and 60's. I think being in the middle of the refugee camp at 2:00 a.m. conducting a raid would make them a little apprehensive.

[Ulysses G.]

Another case of poorly trained IDF personnel

So poorly trained that they are considered to be one of the best armies in the world. Policeman have been killed by thrown rocks, so the criminals who do it have to know that the response will be very serious and that they need to protest peacefully.

[Steely Dan]

It's a good job when it comes to crowd control the Israeli army don't employ similar strategies to what the Syrian army uses on it's own citizens.

[Scott]

I believe there are other threads that discuss Syria.

Stay on topic, please.

[geriatrickid]

Another case of poorly trained IDF personnel pissing their pants when they get a few rocks thrown at them. These clowns need to learn how to apprehend individual using non lethal force like most 'civil' military / law enforcement agencies around the modern world do everyday.

When I was a young wipper snapper on operations with the military , if I shot and killed all the people who threw rocks at us, the body count would be huge. And I would be in jail for murder. Maybe the IDF training tool is simply watching a few movies such as Wyatt Earp, Tombstone and other such cowboy movies.

I disagree with your comment because it does not reflect reality. Put aside politics and step back. A day doesn't go by in the west when a police force somewhere is not accused of the inappropriate use of force. A quick scan of the news last week shows an allegation of French gendarmes beating a thief senseless because he menaced one of the gendarmes, a man armed with a knife was shot dead by Canadian police officers, and in Germany the polizei were accused of over zealousness in the take-down of a suspected thief. In the dark, one doesn't know if the the object someone is throwing is a rock or a grenade, one doesn't know if the object in someone's hand is a gun or a rock. The situation in this topic took place in the dark and in close quarters. Of course it is a waste that two people die when it could have been avoided. What training do you you think could have changed the situation? If someone comes at them in a hostile manner, in a hostile situation, of course that person will be met with measures that will reduce the threat. On the contrary, the agents showed restraint by only targeting the threat and not opening up in a volley that swept the area. It is unreasonable to expect a person to allow a hostile third party to attack them with an object that can maim or kill, and yes those rocks can kill. It is easy to tut tut now that it is established that the objects were rocks, but in the dark and under the circumstances, how does one know it was a rock? A similar predicament confronts NATO forces in Afghanistan. When vehicles get too close to NATO vehicles, the NATO personnel will either fire warning shots if there is time or will fire at the vehicle resulting in death. The reason they do this is that past events have had those vehicles being suicide bombers or filled with hostile elements that will attack.

Edited August 6, 2011 by geriatrickid

[uptheos]

Another case of poorly trained IDF personnel

So poorly trained that they are considered to be one of the best armies in the world. Policeman have been killed by thrown rocks, so the criminals who do it have to know that the response will be very serious and that they need to protest peacefully.

They throw rocks to maim and kill and the Israeli's will respond accordingly........quite rightly.

[uptheos]

Families of suicide bombers given £5m in British aid cash

By MATTHEW KALMAN

Last updated at 1:54 AM on 8th August 2011

British aid cash is being given to the families of suicide bombers, it was claimed last night.

The Palestinian Authority, which gets £86million of British aid a year, has authorised payments of almost £5million to the families of 'martyrs'.

Another £3million has been given to 5,500 Palestinian prisoners held in Israeli jails.

The payments, using taxpayers' cash donated from Britain and the European Union, have been described as 'ludicrous' by one Tory MP.

How much is the USA and others giving them I wonder?

Edited August 8, 2011 by uptheos