Thaksin Pardon Petition Handed To Pracha

[jayboy]

^ Best estimates put the illiteracy (can't read/write) total for Thailand at around 7 million.

If one doesn't get out much and interact with a cross-section of Thais, I can imagine one has never met any of these 7 million Thais.

I have.

.

I'm not sure this rather peculiar post needs to be taken seriously.Nevetheless there's an important point to be made:

Thailand's literacy rate is remarkably high.Of course there are Thais , mainly of the older generation, who are illiterate just as there are many Americans and Englishmen who cannot read or write adequately (although one suspects the younger generation is represented rather more given the feral underclass in the West which thankfully doesn't exist in Thailand).However I do not make the mistake of confusing illiteracy with lack of intelligence or discernment as some do on this thread.If Thailand's educational resources had not been heavily skewed towards urban areas there's no doubt rural literacy rates would be even better.The improvement of rural education and a fairer share of resources would be an excellent policy for any government, and would be free of populist overtones.

Historically the defenders of privilege and the established order have looked to institute barriers to poorly educated people particularly in the operation of the franchise.The quasi fascist PAD movement was an example of this before its decline and abandonment by key elite players.In Thailand two factors are worthy of note.Firstly, the principle of universal franchise is now permanent and the majority lies with the North and the North East.The middle class parties will have to raise their game to persuade sufficient numbers to enable a government to be formed.I believe this can be done with better leadership.Secondly, it is a mistake to believe that poorly educated people do not have a very clear idea of where their political interests lie.There are some I agree who hold this view particularly among the Sino Thai urban middle class but they are mistaken as their equivalents have been mistaken in other countries and at other times.

[Derifo]

Still, besides the certification process, there's quite a few other criteria that the Red Shirts failed at with their petition, eg. the convicted has never spent any of his sentence behind bars, the convicted has never admitted guilt for his crimes, the convicted has never expressed remorse for his crimes.

In short, the pardon will never be approved.

True talk.

[Siripon]

Still, besides the certification process, there's quite a few other criteria that the Red Shirts failed at with their petition, eg. the convicted has never spent any of his sentence behind bars, the convicted has never admitted guilt for his crimes, the convicted has never expressed remorse for his crimes.

In short, the pardon will never be approved.

True talk.

Once Thaksin steps on Thai soil, the cases waiting for his return will start; so he has to reboot history via constitutional changes to make every legal action taken post coup null and void, due to stemming from an illegal action, ie the coup, regardless as to the truth of the charges.

[sillybilly]

Please excuse my ignorence but if the current government was able to pass laws or change the constition in order to suit one person can another government reverse those changes if they were to get into power??

[Snowdog]

if he does get the pardon,the rat escaped justice so very wrong.only because yingluck is in charge now

what a scam that will be if he gets pardoned total crooked government that would prove

[OzMick]

Why not? It is difficult to actually get a few million signatures though

Not so hard when you realise that the anti-Thaksinists are more likely to be able to write.

No comments about Thaksin, but living in the North for many years, I haven't actually met any that could not read and write (Thai that is) people and class bashing again?? That attitude goes a long way for reconciliation and a better Thailand

Why stereotype everyone because they are not like you? Good hearts are healthier than a crippled mind

Besides the 7,000,000 quoted as being illiterate, a much larger number a functionally illiterate. They may be able to sign their name (actually, about my level), but in practice do little else having lost most of the skill due to lack of use.

Class bashing - here in the south the percentages would probably be the same, but they are smart enough to see through the PTP farce.

BTW we were discussing a petition with very little value, and a counter-petition with even less. Try to lighten up a little, humour might help you to recuperate.

[ballpoint]

... If Thailand's educational resources had not been heavily skewed towards urban areas there's no doubt rural literacy rates would be even better.The improvement of rural education and a fairer share of resources would be an excellent policy for any government, and would be free of populist overtones...

Given that the North East have, generally, voted for the same power blocs and their proxies in every election since the restoration of democracy in 1989, I'd imagine those same power brokers are quite happy with the educational level of the majority of their voters. An opinion that is bourne out in the figures showing far less spending on that region, when compared to the others, by every government since then.

Historically the defenders of privilege and the established order have looked to institute barriers to poorly educated people particularly in the operation of the franchise.The quasi fascist PAD movement was an example of this before its decline and abandonment by key elite players.In Thailand two factors are worthy of note.Firstly, the principle of universal franchise is now permanent and the majority lies with the North and the North East.

True, but I don't know why you single out the PAD, given that they have never had a base in the North East and have never had any say in the educational policies for that region. Unlike the NAP / CTP / TRT / PPP / PTP who, combined, have regularly won the most seats there, yet have done nothing to improve the situation. Indeed, as per my first point, it is not in their interest to do so.

The middle class parties will have to raise their game to persuade sufficient numbers to enable a government to be formed.I believe this can be done with better leadership.Secondly, it is a mistake to believe that poorly educated people do not have a very clear idea of where their political interests lie.There are some I agree who hold this view particularly among the Sino Thai urban middle class but they are mistaken as their equivalents have been mistaken in other countries and at other times.

I believe the middle class parties will have a far greater chance of forming a government when (if) the education standard of all the Thai people is raised. Sadly, I don't see that happening anytime soon. Even when started it will take a generation or two before it makes a difference to the way the people see and vote for their politicians, and indeed anyone from a "higher" social class than they are. I see this very clearly in my rural based nieces and nephews, who are taught to know their place in society as soon as they start school.

I agree that the poor do have a clear idea of their political interests. However, for many, the perceived way to realise that idea comes from local propaganda and who shouts loudest over the village tannoy, which are the main ways many get to hear pro and anti government rhetoric. It is also not in the best interests of any country to play up to one grouping, no matter what their numbers are, to the detriment of any other. Especially when the grouping being down played, in this case the middle class, is the one that is essentially responsible for much of the country's economic growth in the past few decades. By all means raise the income of the poor, after all, that is where the middle class has come from and, contrary to those who would have us belive that the poor are stuck in a rut and will never rise in the world, continues to come from, but to demonise the middle classes as some dreary grouping of suburban middle management-a-trons who do their best to keep the poor down, and make them responsible for the plight of the country is both disengenious and, history has shown, an ultimately dangerous tactic for a government to use. Dangerous in the sense that either the government or the wellbeing / freedom of the country as a whole suffers. Time will tell which is to happen here.

Edited September 4, 2011 by ballpoint

[OzMick]

^ Best estimates put the illiteracy (can't read/write) total for Thailand at around 7 million.

If one doesn't get out much and interact with a cross-section of Thais, I can imagine one has never met any of these 7 million Thais.

I have.

.

I'm not sure this rather peculiar post needs to be taken seriously.Nevetheless there's an important point to be made:

Thailand's literacy rate is remarkably high.Of course there are Thais , mainly of the older generation, who are illiterate just as there are many Americans and Englishmen who cannot read or write adequately (although one suspects the younger generation is represented rather more given the feral underclass in the West which thankfully doesn't exist in Thailand).However I do not make the mistake of confusing illiteracy with lack of intelligence or discernment as some do on this thread.If Thailand's educational resources had not been heavily skewed towards urban areas there's no doubt rural literacy rates would be even better.The improvement of rural education and a fairer share of resources would be an excellent policy for any government, and would be free of populist overtones.

Historically the defenders of privilege and the established order have looked to institute barriers to poorly educated people particularly in the operation of the franchise.The quasi fascist PAD movement was an example of this before its decline and abandonment by key elite players.In Thailand two factors are worthy of note.Firstly, the principle of universal franchise is now permanent and the majority lies with the North and the North East.The middle class parties will have to raise their game to persuade sufficient numbers to enable a government to be formed.I believe this can be done with better leadership.Secondly, it is a mistake to believe that poorly educated people do not have a very clear idea of where their political interests lie.There are some I agree who hold this view particularly among the Sino Thai urban middle class but they are mistaken as their equivalents have been mistaken in other countries and at other times.

Concentrating limited resources in urban areas is simply more efficient, more students can access them. And there are a lot of other factors to rural illiteracy; forced to work due to poverty, very early pregnancies, cost of travel to larger centres for higher schools amongst them. It might be crass to point it out, but urban areas are where the tax to pay for schools come from.

One of the best policies was the Dems subsidising school uniforms and texts, removing much of the cost for parents - a policy now to be robbed of funds to pay for tablets. It will not surprise me if the tablets fail to arrive, and the funding still evaporates.

Your faith in the political savvy of uneducated people is your own mistake The biggest supporters of this govt (see poll thread) are farmers and those most likely to benefit from the minimum wage increase, a degree of self-interest that is disappointing if expected. And that may well evaporate as their expected benefits fail to materialise.

[Buchholz]

^ Best estimates put the illiteracy (can't read/write) total for Thailand at around 7 million.

If one doesn't get out much and interact with a cross-section of Thais, I can imagine one has never met any of these 7 million Thais.

I have.

.

I'm not sure this rather peculiar post needs to be taken seriously.Nevetheless there's an important point to be made:

Thailand's literacy rate is remarkably high.Of course there are Thais , mainly of the older generation, who are illiterate just as there are many Americans and Englishmen who cannot read or write adequately (although one suspects the younger generation is represented rather more given the feral underclass in the West which thankfully doesn't exist in Thailand).However I do not make the mistake of confusing illiteracy with lack of intelligence or discernment as some do on this thread.If Thailand's educational resources had not been heavily skewed towards urban areas there's no doubt rural literacy rates would be even better.The improvement of rural education and a fairer share of resources would be an excellent policy for any government, and would be free of populist overtones.

Historically the defenders of privilege and the established order have looked to institute barriers to poorly educated people particularly in the operation of the franchise.The quasi fascist PAD movement was an example of this before its decline and abandonment by key elite players.In Thailand two factors are worthy of note.Firstly, the principle of universal franchise is now permanent and the majority lies with the North and the North East.The middle class parties will have to raise their game to persuade sufficient numbers to enable a government to be formed.I believe this can be done with better leadership.Secondly, it is a mistake to believe that poorly educated people do not have a very clear idea of where their political interests lie.There are some I agree who hold this view particularly among the Sino Thai urban middle class but they are mistaken as their equivalents have been mistaken in other countries and at other times.

A rather peculiar rambling reply to a simple, straight-forward factual statement.

[Siam Simon]

^ Best estimates put the illiteracy (can't read/write) total for Thailand at around 7 million.

If one doesn't get out much and interact with a cross-section of Thais, I can imagine one has never met any of these 7 million Thais.

I have.

.

I'm not sure this rather peculiar post needs to be taken seriously.Nevetheless there's an important point to be made:

Thailand's literacy rate is remarkably high.Of course there are Thais , mainly of the older generation, who are illiterate just as there are many Americans and Englishmen who cannot read or write adequately (although one suspects the younger generation is represented rather more given the feral underclass in the West which thankfully doesn't exist in Thailand).However I do not make the mistake of confusing illiteracy with lack of intelligence or discernment as some do on this thread.If Thailand's educational resources had not been heavily skewed towards urban areas there's no doubt rural literacy rates would be even better.The improvement of rural education and a fairer share of resources would be an excellent policy for any government, and would be free of populist overtones.

Historically the defenders of privilege and the established order have looked to institute barriers to poorly educated people particularly in the operation of the franchise.The quasi fascist PAD movement was an example of this before its decline and abandonment by key elite players.In Thailand two factors are worthy of note.Firstly, the principle of universal franchise is now permanent and the majority lies with the North and the North East.The middle class parties will have to raise their game to persuade sufficient numbers to enable a government to be formed.I believe this can be done with better leadership.Secondly, it is a mistake to believe that poorly educated people do not have a very clear idea of where their political interests lie.There are some I agree who hold this view particularly among the Sino Thai urban middle class but they are mistaken as their equivalents have been mistaken in other countries and at other times.

A rather peculiar rambling reply to a simple, straight-forward factual statement.

Your "factual statement" states "Best esimates". How have these estimates been collated? You're normally very good at providing sources. These "estimates" need closer analysis.

[Siam Simon]

No comments about Thaksin, but living in the North for many years, I haven’t actually met any that could not read and write (Thai that is) people and class bashing again?? That attitude goes a long way for reconciliation and a better Thailand

Why stereotype everyone because they are not like you? Good hearts are healthier than a crippled mind

What you have to remember is: The premise that the Thai masses are poorly-educated, from which follows the false logic that they are stupid and easily led. This premise is essential to certain posters on these threads because their whole political argument would fall away like a landslide if said premise is not adhered to. That's why you will frequently see such posters making derogatory sweeping generalisations about the masses in all sorts of threads. It's usually at best anecdote presented as fact, often not even that. It's also against the forum rules, but that doesn't deter these haters from posting their wishful thinking.

[Pi Sek]

No comments about Thaksin, but living in the North for many years, I haven’t actually met any that could not read and write (Thai that is) people and class bashing again?? That attitude goes a long way for reconciliation and a better Thailand

Why stereotype everyone because they are not like you? Good hearts are healthier than a crippled mind

What you have to remember is: The premise that the Thai masses are poorly-educated, from which follows the false logic that they are stupid and easily led. This premise is essential to certain posters on these threads because their whole political argument would fall away like a landslide if said premise is not adhered to. That's why you will frequently see such posters making derogatory sweeping generalisations about the masses in all sorts of threads. It's usually at best anecdote presented as fact, often not even that. It's also against the forum rules, but that doesn't deter these haters from posting their wishful thinking.

I have been talking with some southern Red Shirts about Thaksin in the last week. Their argument that he should be able to return with impunity is because he's the #2 most loved person in the country. I acknowledge this, although I suggested that he was also the #1 most hated person in the country, and that's the problem.

Of course, it doesn't matter, because Yinglak will fix all Thailand's problems, they opined: Yinglak can succeed because she is Thakin's clone and is directed by Thaksin; but is not actually Thaksin, so by that logic she's not as disliked as Thaksin. That's why she was such a good choice by PT and Thaksin, as her political savvy was of no consequence whatsoever.

However, this does highlight that the "masses" are politically uneducated, and therefore easily led. Why else would they elect someone to lead the country who hasn't had any experience on the job? (And, yes, I'm aware that some/many say it's a "protest" vote against the establishment - but then, to me, that again highlights that the masses are politically uneducated, as anyone who realises the importance of a competent prime minister cannot possibly support the election of a novice on the grounds of a "protest". It's like cutting off your nose to spite your face.)

This is all before any disagreement with Yinglak's ability to fix the country's problems (and there are many who disagree - possibly even a majority?), and before the cold hard fact that Thaksin is not legally eligible for a pardon as Buchholz highlighted in post #2.

I also think it's important to note that the masses are generally less educated and more politically unaware/naive in any country. It's democracy's biggest flaw.

[Siam Simon]

... If Thailand's educational resources had not been heavily skewed towards urban areas there's no doubt rural literacy rates would be even better.The improvement of rural education and a fairer share of resources would be an excellent policy for any government, and would be free of populist overtones...

Given that the North East have, generally, voted for the same power blocs and their proxies in every election since the restoration of democracy in 1989, I'd imagine those same power brokers are quite happy with the educational level of the majority of their voters. An opinion that is bourne out in the figures showing far less spending on that region, when compared to the others, by every government since then.

Historically the defenders of privilege and the established order have looked to institute barriers to poorly educated people particularly in the operation of the franchise.The quasi fascist PAD movement was an example of this before its decline and abandonment by key elite players.In Thailand two factors are worthy of note.Firstly, the principle of universal franchise is now permanent and the majority lies with the North and the North East.

True, but I don't know why you single out the PAD, given that they have never had a base in the North East and have never had any say in the educational policies for that region. Unlike the NAP / CTP / TRT / PPP / PTP who, combined, have regularly won the most seats there, yet have done nothing to improve the situation. Indeed, as per my first point, it is not in their interest to do so.

The middle class parties will have to raise their game to persuade sufficient numbers to enable a government to be formed.I believe this can be done with better leadership.Secondly, it is a mistake to believe that poorly educated people do not have a very clear idea of where their political interests lie.There are some I agree who hold this view particularly among the Sino Thai urban middle class but they are mistaken as their equivalents have been mistaken in other countries and at other times.

I believe the middle class parties will have a far greater chance of forming a government when (if) the education standard of all the Thai people is raised. Sadly, I don't see that happening anytime soon. Even when started it will take a generation or two before it makes a difference to the way the people see and vote for their politicians, and indeed anyone from a "higher" social class than they are. I see this very clearly in my rural based nieces and nephews, who are taught to know their place in society as soon as they start school.

I agree that the poor do have a clear idea of their political interests. However, for many, the perceived way to realise that idea comes from local propaganda and who shouts loudest over the village tannoy, which are the main ways many get to hear pro and anti government rhetoric. It is also not in the best interests of any country to play up to one grouping, no matter what their numbers are, to the detriment of any other. Especially when the grouping being down played, in this case the middle class, is the one that is essentially responsible for much of the country's economic growth in the past few decades. By all means raise the income of the poor, after all, that is where the middle class has come from and, contrary to those who would have us belive that the poor are stuck in a rut and will never rise in the world, continues to come from, but to demonise the middle classes as some dreary grouping of suburban middle management-a-trons who do their best to keep the poor down, and make them responsible for the plight of the country is both disengenious and, history has shown, an ultimately dangerous tactic for a government to use. Dangerous in the sense that either the government or the wellbeing / freedom of the country as a whole suffers. Time will tell which is to happen here.

Well, knock me down with a feather duster, Ballpoint. Posts such as this are the makings of bloody good (and civilised) debate, as opposed to the rant and propaganda that tends to spam and spoil the political discussions in these threads. Bravo!

[Siam Simon]

^^"I believe the middle class parties will have a far greater chance of forming a government when (if) the education standard of all the Thai people is raised. Sadly, I don't see that happening anytime soon. Even when started it will take a generation or two before it makes a difference to the way the people see and vote for their politicians, and indeed anyone from a "higher" social class than they are. I see this very clearly in my rural based nieces and nephews, who are taught to know their place in society as soon as they start school."

It never ceases to surprise me how quickly the young learn when given the opportunities. It's easy for those of us of middle age and older to think that the world moves at the pace that we grew up with. It doesn't. It moves on an exponential curve, and change occurs at an ever-quickening pace.

[Pi Sek]

In response to #45, Siam Simon... I think you have missed the point of my post and answered it with the same post that I was refuting... that doesn't work, especially with your obstinate smiley. I presume you think I'm one of these "haters" do you?

The point was that, as you put it, "The premise that the Thai masses are poorly-educated, from which follows the false logic that they are stupid and easily led" is a strawman argument. Noone's saying they are stupid (well, I'm not anyway) and it's not just applicable to the Thai masses. And even if it wasn't a strawman argument, it's not exactly a criticism.

[mic6ard]

The people have spoken<img class="bbc_emoticon" alt="" src="http://static.thaivisa.com/forum/public/style_emoticons/default/whistling.gif">. They want him back<img class="bbc_emoticon" alt="" src="http://static.thaivisa.com/forum/public/style_emoticons/default/bah.gif">, not directly but definitely there as the "hidden" agenda. This petition is not going anywhere except as a PR ploy. Diverting the public's eyes from the problem with campaign promises (300bht, 15000bht, etc.) <br>How can you pardon someone without admission of guilt from the party??? At least bring the guy back, put him in 'jail' (read house arrest) for a week (let off early for good behaviour), fine him the money (which he'll make back anyway, being the SMART business man that he is). Maybe ban him from politic for life (he can still control the gov't through his family and croonies anyway). <br>If the gov't want him back at least PLEASE PLEASE make a show out of itand punish the man. <br><br>The trick is for the gov't to stay in power long enough to push all the required paper work through and make them stick, i.e do it in such a way that the next gov't can't repeal it. <br>

[elgato]

I've got a feeling that little sister will do whatever it takes to expedite the return of big brother.

[jayboy]

I agree that the poor do have a clear idea of their political interests. However, for many, the perceived way to realise that idea comes from local propaganda and who shouts loudest over the village tannoy, which are the main ways many get to hear pro and anti government rhetoric. It is also not in the best interests of any country to play up to one grouping, no matter what their numbers are, to the detriment of any other. Especially when the grouping being down played, in this case the middle class, is the one that is essentially responsible for much of the country's economic growth in the past few decades. By all means raise the income of the poor, after all, that is where the middle class has come from and, contrary to those who would have us belive that the poor are stuck in a rut and will never rise in the world, continues to come from, but to demonise the middle classes as some dreary grouping of suburban middle management-a-trons who do their best to keep the poor down, and make them responsible for the plight of the country is both disengenious and, history has shown, an ultimately dangerous tactic for a government to use. Dangerous in the sense that either the government or the wellbeing / freedom of the country as a whole suffers. Time will tell which is to happen here.

Some well made points in your post and I agree with much of it.

As to the demonisation of the middle class, I don't really recognise this as a policy of the current government or even of the red shirts.I am quite critical of the Sino Thai middle class but don't think that is widely shared in the country at large.In fact one could argue that the current government reflects that constituency even more than the last one.

As to poverty and repression of the working class, I don't really believe this (whatever the nuttier redshirts say) is the source of the country's current divisions - or even a factor at all.I think it's much more about an awakened political consciousness, the decline of a krengjai society, the end of a system where small unelected elites can control Thailand's destiny (and kin muang themselves).Not so hard to understand and a process completed in countless countries which have transcended an agricultural economy.Key question is - how will this be managed given that the direction and destination is almost inevitable.

[Buchholz]

This one of course is not probably going anywwhere except it has PR value in being a hell of a lot of signatures and it reminds the opponents of Thaksin that there a lot of people who want him back

OR...

it can be reflective of the sort of available money that can be expended to fulfill this scenario.

At the time, many were saying they were offered cash to sign the pardon petition... not unlike being offered cash for election votes. It was also proclaimed at the time, they had 6 million signatures, which was constantly getting downgraded to end up with barely more than half that... and now, following verification, it's a third of that initial claim.

However, it is true it's not going anywhere, for any number of reasons such as posted earlier.

The PR value is diminished by the stupidity of getting "millions" of so-called signatures when actually only one is needed. Did any of the Shinawatra clan sign the petition?

News today in regard to my last question, the answer seems to be yes and no.

Thaksin's brother, Payup, put his name on the petition, but didn't actually sign it.

Even after being asked twice if he wanted to sign it retroactively, he didn't. His was but one of the 1.6 million petitioners whose entry on the petition was invalidated.

Payup's not the brightest of the clan and hence he's not PM, or even an MP.

.

[Buchholz]

On the red-shirt petition with three million names of people asking for royal pardon for Thaksin, Pracha said his ministry's officials are still in process of verifying the signatures, which he said should be completed soon.

-- Tan Network 2011-11-22

[udonguy]

I imagine a petition seeking the government to assasinate him and his 10 closest family members could get 2 million signatures as well. It means nothing.

what 'means something' is the democratically held election when PT won a landslide - its called 'democracy and the will of the people' farang may not like it but this is not our country

[ratcatcher]

I imagine a petition seeking the government to assasinate him and his 10 closest family members could get 2 million signatures as well. It means nothing.

what 'means something' is the democratically held election when PT won a landslide - its called 'democracy and the will of the people' farang may not like it but this is not our country

Probably closer to a mudslide. Obviously some farang, including yourself, do like it.

I think I would too if I lived in Udon, just as life insurance.

And since we are residents here, we have opinions pro and con.

[Buchholz]

I imagine a petition seeking the government to assasinate him and his 10 closest family members could get 2 million signatures as well. It means nothing.

what 'means something' is the democratically held election when PT won a landslide - its called 'democracy and the will of the people' farang may not like it but this is not our country

Probably closer to a mudslide. Obviously some farang, including yourself, do like it.

I think I would too if I lived in Udon, just as life insurance.

And since we are residents here, we have opinions pro and con.

mudslide with a bit of mudslinging.

Anyway, it's been an effort in futility for the Red Shirts.

Without one legitimate legal signature in accordnace with the law, all the other signatures might as well have been Micky Mouse signing.

Still curious about Thaksin's brother, Payup, and why he refused to sign a signature to absolve his brother.

Maybe he doesn't want him back here, either?

.