Thai Citizenship For Men Married To Thais

[lopburi3]

There is a tax treaty for Americans. You should be able to find with Google. US government pensions are tax exempt in Thailand but obviously not in US.

[obi1970]

yes for some country,s its possible to get thai nationality is that country have agrement with thailand , (i know belgium have a one) you still need need to do a long list of other thing before they issue your citizinship

[Arkady]

The key to understanding this is: 1) read the 1965 Nationality Act with amendments up to and including the amendments from the 2008 Nationality Act; 2) read the Interior Ministry's guidelines for applying for naturalisation which can be downloaded in Thai from Special Branch's website; 3) go to Building 24 at National Police HQ to ask officers of Special Branch's Naturalisation Section for clarification of any points still unclear.

Now some FAQ.

1. Is it possible for males without PR but married to a Thai citizen to apply?

Yes, if you have been legally married for at least three years, or one year if you have a child together. This is because the 2008 Nationality Act provided an exemption from the requirement for males with Thai wives to have 5 years' residence in Thailand and the ministry's interpretation of "residence" equals permanent residence.

2. Is Thai tax paid on investment income arising in Thailand or income remitted from overseas acceptable for the requirement of 3 years' audited tax receipts?

No. The Nationality Act requires applicants to have a profession. Evidence of this is required in the form of a work permit and a letter confirming employment from a Thai employer.

3. Is it true that applicants married to Thais don't need to be able to speak Thai?

The 2008 Nationality Act exempted male applicants married to Thais from the requirement to speak and understand Thai. The interpretation of this exemption is currently that you no longer need to sing the National and Royal Anthems. However, you will still be interviewed in Thai at all stages. You will also be rated by Special Branch on your Thai ability as part of your points assessment (a minimum score of 50 out of 100 is requirement for Special Branch to be able proceed with your application). Points for Thai language were increased from 10 to 15 in 2010 when reading and writing tests were also added, along with a new General Knowledge of Thailand multiple choice test (10 points) which is written in (you've guessed it) Thai. Of the 15 Thai language points, 3 are for singing the two songs which you don't have to sing but you lose the points, if you don't. The points for having PR were also increase in 2010 to, I think, a maximum of 25 for those who have had PR for 10 years and the points for having a Thai wife and kid were eliminated completely. So you may be scrabbling around to get the required 50 points, if you don't have PR and your Thai is no good.

With all respect to Samran, women apply to adopt the nationality of their Thai husbands under a different article of the Nationality Act and a different set of ministerial regulations apply to them. In particular they don't need to be assessed for points and there has never been any requirement for them to speak and understand Thai in the Nationality Act. So it is not surprising, if they can get through interviews with hopeless Thai with help from their husbands. Although Thai wives now have to interviewed along with male applicants, even those with PR, I am not sure if male applicants can get through the process with negligible Thai, using their wives as interpreters, even if they manage to scrape together 50 points. I doubt it and anyway a marginal pass on the points assessment would probably earmark you as a marginal candidate which might not help those without high level connections.

4. Is it necessary to renounce existing nationality in order to obtain Thai nationality?

There is nothing in current Nationality Act that specifies this, although pre-1965 versions of the law clearly required those naturalising as Thais to renounce existing nationality and Thais naturalilsing as aliens to renounce or have their Thai nationality revoked. The wording surrounding all of this was softened in the 1965 Act to make it ambiguous and revocation of Thai nationality which can happen in certain cases is at the discretion of the Interior Ministry, rather than mandatory as it is countries like Singapore and Malaysis. However, new ministerial guidelines issued in 2009 require those naturalising as Thais to provide a declaration attested by their embassies of their intent to renounce their existing nationality on being approved for Thai nationality. Once Thai nationality has been approved, the Interior Ministry will inform the applicant's embassy, under the latest regulation.

5. Has there been an instruction to government agencies to track down Thais with dual nationality?

There was a recent directive to Immigration officers dealing with Thais using another passport to enter or leave Thailand but it seemed to deal solely with that specific type of case, rather than aimed at singling out dual national Thais who always use their Thai passports to enter and leave Thailand. Having said that, Immigration officers tend somewhat irrationally to be hostile to the concept of dual nationality (envious perhaps) and have often been known to tell people that dual nationality is illegal for Thais, even if they would be unable to cite any basis in the Nationality Act for their views, if challenged. An enquiry to Immigration about the legal basis for its directive through its web board elicited as a reply a ancient letter of the early 70s from the Interior Ministry to the Foreign Ministry requesting cooperation from Thai embassies abroad in tracking down Thais who have naturalised as aliens, so that the Interior Ministry could process them for revocation of Thai nationality. However, there is no evidence that the Foreign Ministry cooperated with this request and no announcements of such revocations have ever been announced in the Royal Gazette. In fact the Foreign Ministry openly declares dual nationality to be lawful for Thais on its website and gives advice on juggling passports while travelling to Thais with dual nationality. Perhaps the Interior Ministry was pushing in the early 70s to interpret the 1965 Act in the same way as its predecessors. However, the ambiguous wording of the 1965 Act must have proved insufficient for its purpose.

6. Could the law be changed in future to make dual nationality specifically illegal.

Of course it could and there is always an undercurrent of Luddite opinion from government officials against dual nationality, darkly mumbling about national security. On the other hand there are a lot of extremely powerful Thais who either openly or covertly enjoy dual (or multiple) nationality or their children or other family members do, e.g. Thaksin Shinawatra, Abhisit Vejjajiva and many others. Amendments made to the Nationality Act in 1992 that made it a requirement for "look krueng" to chose only one nationality at the age of 20 were rapidly amended again three weeks later through a seciond 1992 Nationality Act, deleting the offensive wording and leaving it only optional to renounce their Thai nationality, if they chose to maintain their other nationality. There was no note in the second 1992 Act to explain the sudden volte face which was the sole purpose of the second Act. So we may assume that the lawmakers had inadvertently trodden on important toes.

Hopefully the Luddite lobby against dual nationality will always be kept at bay by elite dual nationals and clearly the Shinawatra family has no interest in legislating for revocation of Thai nationality for those who have been naturalised as aliens! The global trend is towards more liberalisation in this area and, even Vietnam has recently amended its laws to permit dual nationality in both directions, i.e. for those born Vietnamese and those naturalising as Vietnamese. Kenya has done so too which interestingly makes Obama now eligible for a Kenyan passport, if he ever needs a bolthole (I am not sure about Libyan nationality law).

But anything is possible in Thailand and you never can tell.

Edited September 11, 2011 by Arkady

[Mario2008]

yes for some country,s its possible to get thai nationality is that country have agrement with thailand , (i know belgium have a one) you still need need to do a long list of other thing before they issue your citizinship

It has nothing to do with if a country has an agreement with Thailand or not. This is not covert by a treaty, but by the nationality laws of the countries involved.

[lounger]

Actually from my reading of Thai tax law many years ago Thailand does indeed tax worldwide income (as the USA) but in practice only requires payment of tax for money brought into the country in the year earned (but that could change at any time without law change). But for many countries there are tax treaties in place that may specify how payments may (and/or must) be handled. Do not believe paying tax and not having a record of employment/work permits is going to be much of a positive (except perhaps to indicate you are desperate to obtain citizenship for some reason; which could be taken as good or bad).

I spoke to the UK tax people several years ago about this but they said that as my income was earned through UK based companies (plus the UK military and the state pension) that I could not transfer the payment of tax to another country (specifically Thailand) where I live.

I also vaguely remember from a few years ago that Thailand and the UK have a no double taxation agreement which means that you are only taxed on your income in one country but YOU personally don't get to choose which one.

If you have a UK sourced income....you are scr*wed, they will tax you in the UK, you dont have a choice and even if you did, HMRS will want to see proof that approriate tax has been paid in Thailand and if the amount was less than what you would be paying in the UK, The UK tax man will want the difference between the two amounts.

Its not a question of being scr*wed. In the UK HMRC will assess the income for tax and take into account tax paid in a country with a double taxation agreement with the UK ( Thailand has and so qualifies) Put simply Thailand and UK have different rates of tax, your final tax paid will end up being calculated at the higher rate, whichever that is.

[lounger]

Actually from my reading of Thai tax law many years ago Thailand does indeed tax worldwide income (as the USA) but in practice only requires payment of tax for money brought into the country in the year earned (but that could change at any time without law change). But for many countries there are tax treaties in place that may specify how payments may (and/or must) be handled. Do not believe paying tax and not having a record of employment/work permits is going to be much of a positive (except perhaps to indicate you are desperate to obtain citizenship for some reason; which could be taken as good or bad).

I spoke to the UK tax people several years ago about this but they said that as my income was earned through UK based companies (plus the UK military and the state pension) that I could not transfer the payment of tax to another country (specifically Thailand) where I live.

I also vaguely remember from a few years ago that Thailand and the UK have a no double taxation agreement which means that you are only taxed on your income in one country but YOU personally don't get to choose which one.

If you have a UK sourced income....you are scr*wed, they will tax you in the UK, you dont have a choice and even if you did, HMRS will want to see proof that approriate tax has been paid in Thailand and if the amount was less than what you would be paying in the UK, The UK tax man will want the difference between the two amounts.

Its not a question of being scr*wed. In the UK HMRC will assess the income for tax and take into account tax paid in a country with a double taxation agreement with the UK ( Thailand has and so qualifies) Put simply Thailand and UK have different rates of tax, your final tax paid will end up being calculated at the higher rate, whichever that is.

The Thai authorities tax income remitted to Thailand. Income is defined as money earned within the previous three months. So pension income sent to a Thai bank is taxable in Thailand but a transfer from a UK bank is not. It seems to me wise to have a balance in a UK bank of at least three months income topping it up from income and making withdrawals as required. In practice no one is checking but if you get into the Thai nationality syndrome with tax returns etc who knows what will happen....

[dighambara]

Take a stroll down to the police special branch office in Bangkok, across from Central World, and have a chat to the folk there. They are pretty helpful and will set you straight on the requirements.

Do they speak English there or do they expect you to be fluent in Thai?

I've only ever spoken Thai to them, but I seem to recall their English is reasonable.

As for the requirements to be able to speak Thai...if married to a Thai, that isn't formally tested. My wife, who we are applying for, doesn't speak Thai particularly well but it looks like she'll eventually make it through. But in the circumstances of a foregin wife of a Thai citizen applying, it isn't the wife's bonafides who the authorities care about, it is the Thai husbands (ie mine).

Even though it was an application for my wife, just about all the requirements related to me. MY income, MY profession, MY exception from military service, MY history of tax payments etc etc etc

Under Thai law when it comes to spousal related immigration matters, it is always about the man. Always.

HMMM...

I have met 3 Thai men with foreign wives. Each wife; Philipina, Lao, Brit, had a permanent resident ID Card and each said they received them within only a few weeks... I did not inquire beyond that...

So, my question - Why would your wife want Thai citizenship, if she already has a permanent Resident card..??

Plus, there is a consistent rumor that men married to Thai women will have that same opportunity - marriage as the sole requirement for a permanent resident ID...

By The Way, for a Thai, your English is excellent. Most "English Speakers" here are third generation - Thais teaching English to Thais, who teach English to Thais...

I would love to volunteer to teach English (or assist), but as a retiree, Thai law forbids it...

[skippybangkok]

5. Has there been an instruction to government agencies to track down Thais with dual nationality?

There was a recent directive to Immigration officers dealing with Thais using another passport to enter or leave Thailand but it seemed to deal solely with that specific type of case, rather than aimed at singling out dual national Thais who always use their Thai passports to enter and leave Thailand. Having said that, Immigration officers tend somewhat irrationally to be hostile to the concept of dual nationality (envious perhaps) and have often been known to tell people that dual nationality is illegal for Thais, even if they would be unable to cite any basis in the Nationality Act for their views, if challenged. An enquiry to Immigration about the legal basis for its directive through its web board elicited as a reply a ancient letter of the early 70s from the Interior Ministry to the Foreign Ministry requesting cooperation from Thai embassies abroad in tracking down Thais who have naturalised as aliens, so that the Interior Ministry could process them for revocation of Thai nationality. However, there is no evidence that the Foreign Ministry cooperated with this request and no announcements of such revocations have ever been announced in the Royal Gazette. In fact the Foreign Ministry openly declares dual nationality to be lawful for Thais on its website and gives advice on juggling passports while travelling to Thais with dual nationality. Perhaps the Interior Ministry was pushing in the early 70s to interpret the 1965 Act in the same way as its predecessors. However, the ambiguous wording of the 1965 Act must have proved insufficient for its purpose.

Great post.

As a large majority of dual citizen thais are the rich and famous, i doubt it will ever be seriously put to the test. Its also handy for fugitives who are but who are not but who are which gives them an ability to still pretend to be one

[tombkk]

What with Thailand being like this, and the hoops you need to jump through to get UK citizenship it is a pisser that you a couple who have been married for years can't live together easily despite having plenty of money. It makes my blood boil.

I don't know anything about UK citizenship requirements, but this thread is about Thai citizenship. You can live together alright over here. That's not the question. The question is about acquiring Thai citizenship.

[nwlivewire]

The key to understanding this is: 1) read the 1965 Nationality Act with amendments up to and including the amendments from the 2008 Nationality Act; 2) read the Interior Ministry's guidelines for applying for naturalisation which can be downloaded in Thai from Special Branch's website; 3) go to Building 24 at National Police HQ to ask officers of Special Branch's Naturalisation Section for clarification of any points still unclear.

Now some FAQ.

1. Is it possible for males without PR but married to a Thai citizen to apply?

Yes, if you have been legally married for at least three years, or one year if you have a child together. This is because the 2008 Nationality Act provided an exemption from the requirement for males with Thai wives to have 5 years' residence in Thailand and the ministry's interpretation of "residence" equals permanent residence.

2. Is Thai tax paid on investment income arising in Thailand or income remitted from overseas acceptable for the requirement of 3 years' audited tax receipts?

No. The Nationality Act requires applicants to have a profession. Evidence of this is required in the form of a work permit and a letter confirming employment from a Thai employer.

3. Is it true that applicants married to Thais don't need to be able to speak Thai?

The 2008 Nationality Act exempted male applicants married to Thais from the requirement to speak and understand Thai. The interpretation of this exemption is currently that you no longer need to sing the National and Royal Anthems. However, you will still be interviewed in Thai at all stages. You will also be rated by Special Branch on your Thai ability as part of your points assessment (a minimum score of 50 out of 100 is requirement for Special Branch to be able proceed with your application). Points for Thai language were increased from 10 to 15 in 2010 when reading and writing tests were also added, along with a new General Knowledge of Thailand multiple choice test (10 points) which is written in (you've guessed it) Thai. Of the 15 Thai language points, 3 are for singing the two songs which you don't have to sing but you lose the points, if you don't. The points for having PR were also increase in 2010 to, I think, a maximum of 25 for those who have had PR for 10 years and the points for having a Thai wife and kid were eliminated completely. So you may be scrabbling around to get the required 50 points, if you don't have PR and your Thai is no good.

With all respect to Samran, women apply to adopt the nationality of their Thai husbands under a different article of the Nationality Act and a different set of ministerial regulations apply to them. In particular they don't need to be assessed for points and there has never been any requirement for them to speak and understand Thai in the Nationality Act. So it is not surprising, if they can get through interviews with hopeless Thai with help from their husbands. Although Thai wives now have to interviewed along with male applicants, even those with PR, I am not sure if male applicants can get through the process with negligible Thai, using their wives as interpreters, even if they manage to scrape together 50 points. I doubt it and anyway a marginal pass on the points assessment would probably earmark you as a marginal candidate which might not help those without high level connections.

4. Is it necessary to renounce existing nationality in order to obtain Thai nationality?

There is nothing in current Nationality Act that specifies this, although pre-1965 versions of the law clearly required those naturalising as Thais to renounce existing nationality and Thais naturalilsing as aliens to renounce or have their Thai nationality revoked. The wording surrounding all of this was softened in the 1965 Act to make it ambiguous and revocation of Thai nationality which can happen in certain cases is at the discretion of the Interior Ministry, rather than mandatory as it is countries like Singapore and Malaysis. However, new ministerial guidelines issued in 2009 require those naturalising as Thais to provide a declaration attested by their embassies of their intent to renounce their existing nationality on being approved for Thai nationality. Once Thai nationality has been approved, the Interior Ministry will inform the applicant's embassy, under the latest regulation.

5. Has there been an instruction to government agencies to track down Thais with dual nationality?

There was a recent directive to Immigration officers dealing with Thais using another passport to enter or leave Thailand but it seemed to deal solely with that specific type of case, rather than aimed at singling out dual national Thais who always use their Thai passports to enter and leave Thailand. Having said that, Immigration officers tend somewhat irrationally to be hostile to the concept of dual nationality (envious perhaps) and have often been known to tell people that dual nationality is illegal for Thais, even if they would be unable to cite any basis in the Nationality Act for their views, if challenged. An enquiry to Immigration about the legal basis for its directive through its web board elicited as a reply a ancient letter of the early 70s from the Interior Ministry to the Foreign Ministry requesting cooperation from Thai embassies abroad in tracking down Thais who have naturalised as aliens, so that the Interior Ministry could process them for revocation of Thai nationality. However, there is no evidence that the Foreign Ministry cooperated with this request and no announcements of such revocations have ever been announced in the Royal Gazette. In fact the Foreign Ministry openly declares dual nationality to be lawful for Thais on its website and gives advice on juggling passports while travelling to Thais with dual nationality. Perhaps the Interior Ministry was pushing in the early 70s to interpret the 1965 Act in the same way as its predecessors. However, the ambiguous wording of the 1965 Act must have proved insufficient for its purpose.

6. Could the law be changed in future to make dual nationality specifically illegal.

Of course it could and there is always an undercurrent of Luddite opinion from government officials against dual nationality, darkly mumbling about national security. On the other hand there are a lot of extremely powerful Thais who either openly or covertly enjoy dual (or multiple) nationality or their children or other family members do, e.g. Thaksin Shinawatra, Abhisit Vejjajiva and many others. Amendments made to the Nationality Act in 1992 that made it a requirement for "look krueng" to chose only one nationality at the age of 20 were rapidly amended again three weeks later through a seciond 1992 Nationality Act, deleting the offensive wording and leaving it only optional to renounce their Thai nationality, if they chose to maintain their other nationality. There was no note in the second 1992 Act to explain the sudden volte face which was the sole purpose of the second Act. So we may assume that the lawmakers had inadvertently trodden on important toes.

Hopefully the Luddite lobby against dual nationality will always be kept at bay by elite dual nationals and clearly the Shinawatra family has no interest in legislating for revocation of Thai nationality for those who have been naturalised as aliens! The global trend is towards more liberalisation in this area and, even Vietnam has recently amended its laws to permit dual nationality in both directions, i.e. for those born Vietnamese and those naturalising as Vietnamese. Kenya has done so too which interestingly makes Obama now eligible for a Kenyan passport, if he ever needs a bolthole (I am not sure about Libyan nationality law).

But anything is possible in Thailand and you never can tell.

**********************************

I just got this off the USA State Department website.

Please pay careful attention to the "intention" or "intent" rules of Thailand citizenship and how that may impact your ability to maintain US citizenship as intrepreted by the US Sate Department.

This may be of particular interest to those US citizens who have US government pensions, or US military pensions, or Veteran Administration compensation payments.

I'm not wanting to scare anyone, but I get lost in the weeds reading all this stuff.

But adding in what the US State Department has to say on this matter may be important information to consider.

The Department of State is responsible for determining the citizenship status of a person located outside the United States or in connection with the application for a U.S. passport while in the United States.

POTENTIALLY EXPATRIATING ACTS

Section 349 of the Immigration and Nationality Act (8 U.S.C. 1481), as amended, states that U.S. citizens are subject to loss of citizenship if they perform certain specified acts voluntarily and with the intention to relinquish U.S. citizenship. Briefly stated, these acts include:

1. obtaining naturalization in a foreign state (Sec. 349 (a) (1) INA);
2. taking an oath, affirmation or other formal declaration to a foreign state or its political subdivisions (Sec. 349 (a) (2) INA);
3. entering or serving in the armed forces of a foreign state engaged in hostilities against the U.S. or serving as a commissioned or non-commissioned officer in the armed forces of a foreign state (Sec. 349 (a) (3) INA);
4. accepting employment with a foreign government if (a) one has the nationality of that foreign state or ( an oath or declaration of allegiance is required in accepting the position (Sec. 349 (a) (4) INA);
5. formally renouncing U.S. citizenship before a U.S. diplomatic or consular officer outside the United States (sec. 349 (a) (5) INA);
6. formally renouncing U.S. citizenship within the U.S. (but only under strict, narrow statutory conditions) (Sec. 349 (a) (6) INA);
7. conviction for an act of treason (Sec. 349 (a) (7) INA).

ADMINISTRATIVE STANDARD OF EVIDENCE

As already noted, the actions listed above can cause loss of U.S. citizenship only if performed voluntarily and with the intention of relinquishing U.S. citizenship. The Department has a uniform administrative standard of evidence based on the premise that U.S. citizens intend to retain United States citizenship when they obtain naturalization in a foreign state, subscribe to a declaration of allegiance to a foreign state, serve in the armed forces of a foreign state not engaged in hostilities with the United States, or accept non-policy level employment with a foreign government.

DISPOSITION OF CASES WHEN ADMINISTRATIVE PREMISE IS APPLICABLE

In light of the administrative premise discussed above, a person who:

1. is naturalized in a foreign country;
2. takes a routine oath of allegiance to a foreign state;
3. serves in the armed forces of a foreign state not engaged in hostilities with the United States, or
4. accepts non-policy level employment with a foreign government,

and in so doing wishes to retain U.S. citizenship need not submit prior to the commission of a potentially expatriating act a statement or evidence of his or her intent to retain U.S. citizenship since such an intent will be presumed.

When, as the result of an individual's inquiry or an individual's application for registration or a passport it comes to the attention of a U.S. consular officer that a U.S. citizen has performed an act made potentially expatriating by Sections 349(a)(1), 349(a)(2), 349(a)(3) or 349(a)(4) as described above, the consular officer will simply ask the applicant if there was intent to relinquish U.S. citizenship when performing the act. If the answer is no, the consular officer will certify that it was not the person's intent to relinquish U.S. citizenship and, consequently, find that the person has retained U.S. citizenship.

PERSONS WHO WISH TO RELINQUISH U.S. CITIZENSHIP

If the answer to the question regarding intent to relinquish citizenship is yes , the person concerned will be asked to complete a questionnaire to ascertain his or her intent toward U.S. citizenship. When the questionnaire is completed and the voluntary relinquishment statement is signed by the expatriate, the consular officer will proceed to prepare a certificate of loss of nationality. The certificate will be forwarded to the Department of State for consideration and, if appropriate, approval.

An individual who has performed any of the acts made potentially expatriating by statute who wishes to lose U.S. citizenship may do so by affirming in writing to a U.S. consular officer that the act was performed with an intent to relinquish U.S. citizenship. Of course, a person always has the option of seeking to formally renounce U.S. citizenship abroad in accordance with Section 349 (a) (5) INA.

DISPOSITION OF CASES WHEN ADMINISTRATIVE PREMISE IS INAPPLICABLE

The premise that a person intends to retain U.S. citizenship is not applicable when the individual:

1. formally renounces U.S. citizenship before a consular officer;
2. serves in the armed forces of a foreign state engaged in hostilities with the United States;
3. takes a policy level position in a foreign state;
4. is convicted of treason; or
5. performs an act made potentially expatriating by statute accompanied by conduct which is so inconsistent with retention of U.S. citizenship that it compels a conclusion that the individual intended to relinquish U.S. citizenship. (Such cases are very rare.)

Cases in categories 2, 3, 4 and 5 will be developed carefully by U.S. consular officers to ascertain the individual's intent toward U.S. citizenship.

APPLICABILITY OF ADMINISTRATIVE PREMISE TO PAST CASES

The premise established by the administrative standard of evidence is applicable to cases adjudicated previously. Persons who previously lost U.S. citizenship may wish to have their cases reconsidered in light of this policy.

A person may initiate such a reconsideration by submitting a request to the nearest U.S. consular office or by writing directly to:

Express Mail:

Director

Office of Policy Review and Inter-Agency Liaison (CA/OCS/PRI)

Overseas Citizens Services

Bureau of Consular Affairs

U.S. Department of State

4th Floor

2100 Pennsylvania Avenue, N.W.

Washington, D.C. 20037

Phone: 202-736-9110

Fax: 202-736-9111

Email: [email protected]

Regular Mail

Director

Office of Policy Review and Inter-Agency Liaison (CA/OCS/PRI)

Overseas Citizens Services

Bureau of Consular Affairs

U.S. Department of State

SA-29, 4th Floor

Washington, D.C. 20520

Each case will be reviewed on its own merits taking into consideration, for example, statements made by the person at the time of the potentially expatriating act.

[lopburi3]

As already noted, the actions listed above can cause loss of U.S. citizenship only if performed voluntarily and with the intention of relinquishing U.S. citizenship.

That is the key provision - they do not result in loss of citizenship unless you come back and say you have done it for that specific reason and request it - otherwise it is just considered a requirement of the other state and has no effect. Just as becoming a US citizen appears to require renouncing other citizenship (by our oath) but in fact does not.

[lopburi3]

So, my question - Why would your wife want Thai citizenship, if she already has a permanent Resident card..??

Perhaps because there are real everyday advantages to citizenship (work/travel/no reporting) but very few for PR.

[stefandotasia]

There are many requirements to fulfill prior getting naturalized as Thai National.

Marriage is one of the ingredients to the mix of things that include many many others.

I am happily passed all the requirements received my Thai Pass 4 years ago.

[samran]

I've only ever spoken Thai to them, but I seem to recall their English is reasonable.

As for the requirements to be able to speak Thai...if married to a Thai, that isn't formally tested. My wife, who we are applying for, doesn't speak Thai particularly well but it looks like she'll eventually make it through. But in the circumstances of a foregin wife of a Thai citizen applying, it isn't the wife's bonafides who the authorities care about, it is the Thai husbands (ie mine).

Even though it was an application for my wife, just about all the requirements related to me. MY income, MY profession, MY exception from military service, MY history of tax payments etc etc etc

Under Thai law when it comes to spousal related immigration matters, it is always about the man. Always.

HMMM...

I have met 3 Thai men with foreign wives. Each wife; Philipina, Lao, Brit, had a permanent resident ID Card and each said they received them within only a few weeks... I did not inquire beyond that...

So, my question - Why would your wife want Thai citizenship, if she already has a permanent Resident card..??

Plus, there is a consistent rumor that men married to Thai women will have that same opportunity - marriage as the sole requirement for a permanent resident ID...

By The Way, for a Thai, your English is excellent. Most "English Speakers" here are third generation - Thais teaching English to Thais, who teach English to Thais...

I would love to volunteer to teach English (or assist), but as a retiree, Thai law forbids it...

Hi there - My wife doesn't have Thai PR...never had. She was on annual extensions of stay on a non-immigrant 'O' visa, the extensions based on marriage to a Thai citizen.

As for my English, it helps I guess that I was born and raised in Australia.... But thanks for the compliment anyway.

[samran]

With all respect to Samran, women apply to adopt the nationality of their Thai husbands under a different article of the Nationality Act and a different set of ministerial regulations apply to them. In particular they don't need to be assessed for points and there has never been any requirement for them to speak and understand Thai in the Nationality Act. So it is not surprising, if they can get through interviews with hopeless Thai with help from their husbands. Although Thai wives now have to interviewed along with male applicants, even those with PR, I am not sure if male applicants can get through the process with negligible Thai, using their wives as interpreters, even if they manage to scrape together 50 points. I doubt it and anyway a marginal pass on the points assessment would probably earmark you as a marginal candidate which might not help those without high level connections.

No problems being corrected on this one, Arkady. Many thanks for the clarification, as my understanding was that the effect of the 2008 amendments was to make the game the same for everyone.

I guess not.

[Arkady]

As already noted, the actions listed above can cause loss of U.S. citizenship only if performed voluntarily and with the intention of relinquishing U.S. citizenship.

That is the key provision - they do not result in loss of citizenship unless you come back and say you have done it for that specific reason and request it - otherwise it is just considered a requirement of the other state and has no effect. Just as becoming a US citizen appears to require renouncing other citizenship (by our oath) but in fact does not.

At least, if you renounce US citizenship, you can give up filing for US tax on your global income, once Uncle Sam has agreed to let you off the hook.

[Arkady]

With all respect to Samran, women apply to adopt the nationality of their Thai husbands under a different article of the Nationality Act and a different set of ministerial regulations apply to them. In particular they don't need to be assessed for points and there has never been any requirement for them to speak and understand Thai in the Nationality Act. So it is not surprising, if they can get through interviews with hopeless Thai with help from their husbands. Although Thai wives now have to interviewed along with male applicants, even those with PR, I am not sure if male applicants can get through the process with negligible Thai, using their wives as interpreters, even if they manage to scrape together 50 points. I doubt it and anyway a marginal pass on the points assessment would probably earmark you as a marginal candidate which might not help those without high level connections.

No problems being corrected on this one, Arkady. Many thanks for the clarification, as my understanding was that the effect of the 2008 amendments was to make the game the same for everyone.

I guess not.

Males still apply for naturalisation, rather than to adopt the Thai nationality of their Thai spouse. There are other important differences, e.g. women with Thai nationality via Thai husbands cannot have their nationality revoked for taking "an active interest" in their former nationality or for residing out of the Kingdom for 5 years, only for causing offence to public morals or being a threat to national security (and yes, this has actually happened). Thus, despite having lesser qualifications, the women actually get a higher level of Thai nationality. But hey! It is still a huge liberalisation and males applying under the exemption from PR now constitute the majority of applicants.

[Arkady]

HMMM...

I have met 3 Thai men with foreign wives. Each wife; Philipina, Lao, Brit, had a permanent resident ID Card and each said they received them within only a few weeks... I did not inquire beyond that...

So, my question - Why would your wife want Thai citizenship, if she already has a permanent Resident card..??

Plus, there is a consistent rumor that men married to Thai women will have that same opportunity - marriage as the sole requirement for a permanent resident ID...

By The Way, for a Thai, your English is excellent. Most "English Speakers" here are third generation - Thais teaching English to Thais, who teach English to Thais...

I would love to volunteer to teach English (or assist), but as a retiree, Thai law forbids it...

Sorry to inform you that the statement about the three Thai men with foreign wives who had all obtained permanent residence within a few weeks cannot be true. Issuance of permanent residence is governed by the Immigration Act and there is no provision in the Act for women to obtain permanent residence solely on the basis of being married to a Thai citizen. Foreign women may obtain PR either in their own right or through a foreign husband who is a permanent resident. Those married to Thais may obtain annual visa extensions based on marriage (no doubt what these three women have done), the same as males with Thai wives, and they may apply to adopt their husbands' Thai nationality, as Mrs Samran has done. I think it has always been assumed that women with Thai husbands would take Thai nationality and therefore no provision has ever been made for them to get PR.

Whatever rumours may be around to the effect that foreign men will soon be able to obtain PR on the sole basis of being married to Thai women must also be disregarded. PR requires a profession in Thailand according to the Immigration Act, as does obtaining Thai citizenship through naturalisation under the Nationality Act. There is little likelihood that this will change for foreign males in the forseeable future. There has been a veritable avalanche of foreign males married to Thais living on retirement or marriage visas without working, since the current law on PR was introduced in 1979. I would think far more likely that the authorities will eventually tighten up on this form of "back door" immigration, rather than allow conversion to permanent status through PR.

[TheChiefJustice]

4. Is it necessary to renounce existing nationality in order to obtain Thai nationality?

However, new ministerial guidelines issued in 2009 require those naturalising as Thais to provide a declaration attested by their embassies of their intent to renounce their existing nationality on being approved for Thai nationality. Once Thai nationality has been approved, the Interior Ministry will inform the applicant's embassy, under the latest regulation.

I guess I will soon find out if this is the case. I was informed by the Special Branch in mid-August that my citizenship application was approved by the previous Interior Minister.

Currently, I am awaiting His Majesty's approval before being formally published in the Gazette. To date nothing has ever been mentioned about any requirement to provide a declaration of my intention to renounce my existing nationality. I hope it stays that way. I will keep you updated.

Edited September 27, 2011 by TheChiefJustice

[TerryLH]

"I would love to volunteer to teach English (or assist), but as a retiree, Thai law forbids it.."

If you really want to teach, you could change your visa to one that allows you to stay here and to work. A work permit will still be required, even for volunteer work.