Ban On Non-Eu Foreign Spouses Under The Age Of 21 Entering The Uk Is Unlawful

[mark131v]

sorry I don't know what I have done with the quotes, could a mod sort it out for me please vmt

[MAJIC]

MAJIC

did you read the title? do you know what we are talking about? or are you just a bit defensive maybe?

My point is that a kid of 18-20 is vulnerable, you take them out of their culture away from their family to the other side of the world with some older bloke who they have nothing in common with and you think this is OK because you have an agreement? well sorry I dont think that is right and you know what, that will never change no matter how old and desperate I get

No need for me to look at my subconscios mate and I certainy aint jealous, if it is wrong it is wrong. I have absolutely no issue with old blokes having younger wives but I will always have an issue with old blokes taking advantage of 18-20 year old kids and using money as a weapon for sexual kicks and it is always interesting to hear someone like you try to justify this and talk like everyone is the same as you and because your older it is suddenly alright

You want to live in LOS with a 20 year old no issues, when it goes wrong she can go home and take you to the cleaners, not really an option on the other side of the world especially if you dont understand the language or the culture

ps MAJIC I dont know if you have kids but if you do would you think it was OK for yours? I wouldnt but maybe its because I am not as old as you, then again maybe not

Yes Mark! I did read the Topic Title,and did you read ? in the Thread, that age discrimination with the relationships that has been discussed here,has now been overturned by the European Courts as illegal Discrimination.

To be perfectly honest my wife's age is nowhere remotely near the age group under dicussion and what you consider vulnerable,and still there is the narrow minded Bigots,with their Moralistic viewpoint ,that everbody should adhere to what they decide is acceptable in Society,and their Judgemental outdated views. i.e the Male ideally should be only 2 or 3 years older than the Female,that idea is just as ridiculous as expecting people to get Married and stay together into a ripe old age,in often a loveless Marriage.

From my observations,the Young women are in general treated very well by the Older men,as the old adage goes "Better to be an old mans Darling than a Young mans Slave" (of course there are exceptions to that)

some people are very strait-laced, and can't accept that within the law,people should be allowed to make their own personal choices,without being Pilloried,by ancient rules of an outdated Society.

As for my Daughter i'm sure she will make her own choice when the times comes,whether I like it or not? which is usually the case! with Youth.

I take your point that a Young woman may be out of her depth on the other side of the World,but that also applies to immature older women.

My view on this is very clear, I am neither narrow minded nor bigoted, I accept every thing that I see in Thailand some things I don't agree with but live and let live, I have no problems with old guys having young wives but it becomes a different issue when it involves potential for abuse

I mentioned my repulsion at seeing old men with young girls, open your eyes you sound like you have been here long enough, take a trip down walking street where you will see some repulsive old perv with a teenager and I do not mean 20s and able to make their own decisions, for me it is wrong pure and simple but in LOS this happens and in the worst case the kid can get out so I have no issue with this

The point of somebody especially an old male saying that it is OK for an 18-20 year old kid probably from the most vulnerable group in society with very little education to be taken half way around the world to a totally alien culture by some older male, essentially for his own self gratification is not right no matter which way you dice it. Its all about money and peer pressure and scum bag families and at 18-20 many, not all, are not equipped to deal with these decisions, so as far as I am concerned its wrong and the powers that be have got it wrong

As for our daughters, well I think we are both probably lucky enough that this will not be an issue but not everyone's children are so well looked after or lucky......I think we will have to agree to disagree on this subject

just thought of another thing, this is probably the first time I have ever heard anybody on Thai Visa arguing that the Human Rights laws are good for modern society, stranger and stranger?

Its only strange to your blinkered way of thinking,

I said or implied nothing of the sort,

Human rights issues are a collection of seperate issues on their own,and would require a new Topic for discussing them individually,blanket coverage on any subject,does not make one totally on the side of so called Human Rights,as you seem to assume.

Please try and stick to the facts!

but as you say:best to "agree to disagree".........

MAJIC,

I am at a loss with this one I am struggling to see how that comment has got you to spit your dummy?

Are we or are we not arguing about a ruling that has been overturned by the UK High Court because it may breach human rights law? I will give you a clue I am not agreeing with it as it stands right now and you are saying it is a good thing...you know what this really is the first time I have heard arguments about this subject where lots of posters are saying it is a good thing it is usually the opposite about immigrants ruining the UK sort of stuff... <deleted> never mind

It is plain to see you and me have a whole different set of values, that's OK, I can live with that

By the way I haven't been keeping a track of what you have called me but I do recall being blinkered, narrow minded, bigoted, jealous, moralistic and judgemental..fair one I must have hit a nerve or something.. you have also said that I should examine my darkest thoughts and subconscious as all the pretty young girls should be looking at me..I cant see how thinking that 18-20 year old girls or boys, I am not sexist before you pin that one on me!!, should be protected from a small minority of older predatory males got that response

never mind have a good one

MAJIC

On the contrary I have not "spit my dummy" and I am not in the least angry or wound up, the thrust of my debate with you,was not about human rights,as you claim,it was/and is, about personal choices,the choice of who you choose to be with.Not your choice and Not mine either.

The age difference should not come into the equasion,so it was a ridiculous ledgislation by the UK Government to bring in a stupid law,of which the UKBA followed the law,and banned Young women up to the age of 21 being admitted to the UK with the older man of their choice.a Law that was sure to be overturned,in the European Courts.

It was such a ridiculous law,that it was wrong when the Young women was 20 years and 364 days old,but miraculously they suddenly became mature,worldly, and knew what they were doing' and wisdom came the very next day,on their 21st Birthday.

How I wished the World was as Black and White as the one you seem to live in,from my view if people must judge others and lay down their preconcieved ideas and notions on them,at least,judge every case on it's own merits i.e it's what they want,and Sod all to do with any one else.

And Age Discrimination is just as objectional as any other form of Descrimination.

Whilst I would say, if the Older mans objective is not honourable or obusive,then we are talking about a different subject, i.e certainly Black and White!

Have you ever considered the difference of future prospects some of these young women have in Thailand,compared with the Western World ?

Well I think they would be mature enough to make the right decision on that score,given the choice,and as I have previously stated,it was also a bad law for the young as well as the old. e.g a young man of 29 could not bring his 20 year old GF or Wife back to his Country either,or is he also too old ???

I also think that you probably have not much experience of UK Visa Spouse Applications,it is a fallacy that many believe that you can have a months holiday in Thailand and come back with the woman of their choice.

This is far from the truth,there is a strict Visa vetting process in the UK and indeed,most Western Countries,in which the applicant and Sponsor,have to prove a genuine long term relationship,and many other stipulations,at this stage the Sponsors with ulterior motives will I suspect get unofficially weeded out/..........Visa refused.

There may be a tiny amount that slip through the net,but that should not mean that every male should be judged,as having evil intensions,or being perverted,predators.

I know quite a lot of Thai females in the UK (there is 30,000 living there) ,and they all talk to each other and explain the system there,and they all know:any problems in the UK,just walk into a Police Station,and the full weight of the law,will sort it all out!

Oh by the way? are your views also the same for women, with young men? because I have seen quite a lot of older women with young men in Thailand too?

Or doe's it have to be Male Age Discrimination only thing?

Sorry Mark? I can't agree with your rigid rules. I'm a Free Thinker,not a Black and White one.

Take care!

Edited October 16, 2011 by MAJIC

[7by7]

This is a topic on UK immigration law, not the 'rights' or 'wrongs' of any age difference between partners who are consenting adults.

Any more posts on those lines will be deleted.

[7by7]

One post removed, trying to make the continuation of an off topic argument look like an on topic comment wont work.

Flaming, even mild flaming, wont be tolerated, either.

[bangkockney]

The point is that age is an arbitrary tool. It's useless in achieving the end result. You've alluded to it in previous posts but the key clearly is the genuineness of the relationship. It is the relationship that should be scrutinised, not the ages of those involved or their nationalities.

Besides, the age ban was so full of loopholes, such as not applying to those who entered the UK as points-based applicants, that it was laughable really.

And again, there was no evidence that members of HM Forces were more or less likely than the general population to be involved in forced marriages, yet they benefited from an exemption. Nothing to do with the Commonwealth or providing family support to front line troops, as it applied equally to a Baby Para knee deep in Afghan or an AGC clerk back home.

Really it was a rushed, ill-thought out piece of legislation that was not evidence based, albeit with good intentions.

[mark131v]

bkk_mike, bangkokney,

I agree with 99% of what you both say, In a perfect world I agree all cases should be taken on their own merits irrespective of all other factors but truth is most UK depts are so scared of being seen as out of step that common sense sometimes gets forgotten, this is far from a perfect world and if it was we would not be having this chat

I think the rule was meant with good intention but as you say heavy handed and badly thought out and hence why it was overturned, that said I still believe that this and all other rules should be there to protect the vulnerable even if it can also be inconvenient to other people and is not perfect but that is just my opinion

MAJIC I dont really understand you but no worries life would be dull if we were all the same

have a good one Mark

[jojo90]

Interesting reading here, however how will anyone know which way this goes in the end? Just keep checking the news? UKBA site?

[7by7]

All of the above, plus this site.

We will try and post the information when and if a final decision is made.

[ludditeman]

You want to live in LOS with a 20 year old no issues, when it goes wrong she can go home and take you to the cleaners, not really an option on the other side of the world especially if you dont understand the language or the culture

Actually in Thailand divorce will get her nothing, in the UK she would get lots (wife with child situation)

Your opinion is in fact exactly wrong.

[bobrussell]

This seems to have been accepted by the British government and new guidelines have been issued:

http://www.ind.homeoffice.gov.uk/sitecontent/newsarticles/2011/november/10-marriage-visa-age

[Richard W]

Then there's the one the OP talks about - where effectively you're only married in the eyes of immigration if you're both 21.

In the eyes of UK law, if the marriage is legal in the country where it took place then it is legal in the UK (Foreign Marriages Act 1892). The immigration rules were changed, though, so that in spouse, fiance and partner applications, both partners, applicant and sponsor, had to be 21 or over.

Even before that, a girl under 16 couldn't get a visa on the basis of her husband. I think the argument here was that a legitimate marriage did not trump the law on the age of consent.

[monekyface]

"You are all disgustingly mean-spirited. You simply look at it from the point of view of conceivable "abuse", without stopping to think about the other side of the coin: what about the far more plausible and ordinary situation where two people of disparate ages wish to be together because they love each other and make each other happy despite your prejudices, but those prejudices and the consequent legal consequences make their happiness together practically impossible?"

+1

My wife was 22 when we married but when we met she was 19, and could very easily have been caught up in this mess. Thank God that we chose to live in Asia together for a while before we could marry in my home country. There are arguments on both sides of the coin, but some posters seem eerily obsessed with relationships between an older man and younger woman and are sure that this should be prevented at all costs. A little jealous, are we? Got an "age appropriate" white female at home for yourself and feel threatened by people who don't play by your rigid social rules?

Some people need government to spell out every little detail of their lives, while others do not. The nanny state is alive and well.

[bobrussell]

This thread seems to get side-tracked on the rights and wrongs of marrying when one partner is under 21 years old. In the UK a person is legally adult at 18yrs and the age of consent is 16yrs.

Immigration law is nothing to do with this. Why should immigration law decide that marriage is only OK when the parties are 21? It was always a sledge-hammer to crack a nut.

Vulnerable individuals should be protected IMO but this was never the way to do it! It was never relevant to me or my wife as we both left our teens a lot of years ago but it always struck me as an odd piece of legislation!

[Kadafi]

I am so happy the government has knocked some common sense into the UKBA with regards to this stupidly thought out law. Me and my wife have been apart now for 5 months and its been hell, they even sent her away from her child who has been living with me in the UK ever since. We have submitted a new application yesterday for access to her child, would have maybe gone for a settlement if i knew the law was about to change.

Lets hope they dont try knocking her back again because shes under 21 and do it just before it comes into effect on 28th november...nothing would surprise me.

[seekingfriends]

the law was brought in to stop arranged marrages . cousins marrying cousins the bbc channel 4 . have covered this subject.

[7by7]

I am so happy the government has knocked some common sense into the UKBA with regards to this stupidly thought out law.

Pedantry moment

It was the (last?) government which increased the age from 18 to 21; not the UKBA!

UKBA staff had no choice but to refuse settlement applications as a spouse, fiance or partner where the applicant, sponsor or both were under 21. It was the law and they had absolutely no discretion in the matter.

It was the Supreme Court which ruled that this is unlawful and this ruling caused the current government to change the law.

Direct your, justifiable, ire at those responsible.

[bobrussell]

There a a number of these oddities within the immigration system and as 7x7 has stated it is the government that tells the UKBA what to do (although recent problems suggest they may not be listening!). It is the courts that are having to knock some sense into the legislation. It can be argued that this is what courts are for but it is sad that some poor s*d has to go through the traumas and expense of a court case up to the Supreme Court!

[alfieconn]

if it is genuine a couple of years is not the end of the world is it?

I met my girlfriend when she was 17, me 25 (now she is 20 and im 28)

So how old are ya, your profile ses this

Age:31 years old Birthday:August 7, 1980

Edited November 9, 2011 by alfieconn