Overstay And Thai Citizenship

[DonnieME]

Hi all,

I'm new to the forum so please bare with me.

The story is, I'm a dual citizenship (swedish/thai).

I received the Thai passport when I was 20 years old (I'm 24 y/o), and I have not reported in with the immigration or done anything with the swedish passport since then.

I'm going to China next month, so I learnt from the Swedish embassy that I have overstayed for 4 years.

Ok, I'm willing to pay the 20k fine.

I want to return to Thailand using the Thai passport in order to avoid any future mess with the immigration.

I read somewhere I could return using a Thai passport but my brain can't really process it.

So if I got it right. I apply for visa to China using my EU passport.

I go to the immigration and pay the fine.

Leave with my EU passport to China.

When I leave China to get back to Thailand, I stamp out using my EU passport, but when I arrive in Thailand, I stamp in using my Thai passport?

So did I get the above correct?

Thanks for all your help/advice.

-Donnie

[VisasPlus]

I would have thought that if you have Thai nationality you cannot be an overstayer. Logically, you don't need a visa to enter, or stay in, Thailand.

[InterestedObserver]

I would have thought that if you have Thai nationality you cannot be an overstayer. Logically, you don't need a visa to enter, or stay in, Thailand.

The OP apparently entered Thailand using his Swedish passport, immigration will therefore consider him Swedish and he needs to clear that entry stamp.

[VisasPlus]

I would have thought that if you have Thai nationality you cannot be an overstayer. Logically, you don't need a visa to enter, or stay in, Thailand.

The OP apparently entered Thailand using his Swedish passport, immigration will therefore consider him Swedish and he needs to clear that entry stamp.

Maybe you are right. It would be interesting to see how immigration could justify, legally, fining a Thai national for overstaying. Theoretically, are you saying that they could deport the Swedish national too ?

[InterestedObserver]

I go to the immigration and pay the fine.

People normally pay the overstay fine at the airport while on their way out.

[VisasPlus]

I go to the immigration and pay the fine.

People normally pay the overstay fine at the airport while on their way out.

Of course, I understand the overstay system. But, for the sake of argument, what if he refuses to pay ? Is he arrestable ? Can he, as a Thai national, be refused permission to exit Thailand ? If he commited any other other crime, could he be deported as he is still in Thailand as a Swedish national ? I doubt it. I am playing Devil's Advocate here, of course.

[Daffy D]

For heavens sake why doesn't someone answer the mans question?

So if I got it right. I apply for visa to China using my EU passport.

I go to the immigration and pay the fine.

Leave with my EU passport to China.

When I leave China to get back to Thailand, I stamp out using my EU passport, but when I arrive in Thailand, I stamp in using my Thai passport?

Yes that is how it works

On leavinng you could show them your Thai Passport and see if they let you off the overstay.

[VisasPlus]

For heavens sake why doesn't someone answer the mans question?

So if I got it right. I apply for visa to China using my EU passport.

I go to the immigration and pay the fine.

Leave with my EU passport to China.

When I leave China to get back to Thailand, I stamp out using my EU passport, but when I arrive in Thailand, I stamp in using my Thai passport?

Yes that is how it works

On leavinng you could show them your Thai Passport and see if they let you off the overstay.

The question was answered in Post 3, I think. We are just continuing the debate. Thank you for your contribution.

:jap:

[Eff1n2ret]

I would have thought that if you have Thai nationality you cannot be an overstayer. Logically, you don't need a visa to enter, or stay in, Thailand.

The OP apparently entered Thailand using his Swedish passport, immigration will therefore consider him Swedish and he needs to clear that entry stamp.

Indeed, it can be a problem.

My wife and I have a friend, dual UK/Thai national, who has lived in the UK for 30 years and in recent times just travelled on her UK passport. Up to 18 months ago she hadn't been to Thailand for many years. Having now bought a property near us in Thailand, and likely to spend a little more time here, she got a new Thai passport from the RTE in London. When she arrived a couple of weeks ago she presented her new Thai passport but the IO refused to endorse it because it had no UK endorsement, and insisted on giving her a 30-day visit stamp in her British passport. She wants to stay this time until the end of November.

The IO was totally incorrect - there is no UK endorsement which could be put in her passport. She couldn't have ILR, because as a British citizen she doesn't need 'Leave to Remain', indefinite or otherwise, and as she already holds a UK passport she couldn't have a Certificate of Right of Abode in her Thai passport. Also there since the mid-1990s there is no embarkation stamp given on departure from the UK.

I advised that probably the only way to resolve the matter is to go back to Bangkok airport and cast herself on the mercy of the Chief Immigration Officer there, to get the original endorsement annulled and an entry stamp put in her Thai passport. She could of course extend her stay with border runs, but that's not really the point. If she tries to leave on the Thai passport the place of issue may well be spotted and again she would get no stamp, and probably an overstay fine - and of course next time she comes back there's no guarantee she wouldn't have the same problem.

I took her along to our local immigration office today to see if they could pull a string or two, but unfortunately ran into a numpty as ignorant as her colleague at Suvarnaboom. The wretched woman's opening gambit was that if our friend wanted to sort it she'd have to relinquish one or other of her nationalities. Having backed down from that she became a little more helpful, and the final suggestion was that if she could present her Tabien Baan (which she hadn't brought with her), she could get a 1-year extension for 1900Baht.

So there you go - a Thai citizen is tonight preparing to apply and pay for an extension of stay in her own country. I believe she's just storing up trouble, but what do I know about it....

[VisasPlus]

I would have thought that if you have Thai nationality you cannot be an overstayer. Logically, you don't need a visa to enter, or stay in, Thailand.

The OP apparently entered Thailand using his Swedish passport, immigration will therefore consider him Swedish and he needs to clear that entry stamp.

Indeed, it can be a problem.

My wife and I have a friend, dual UK/Thai national, who has lived in the UK for 30 years and in recent times just travelled on her UK passport. Up to 18 months ago she hadn't been to Thailand for many years. Having now bought a property near us in Thailand, and likely to spend a little more time here, she got a new Thai passport from the RTE in London. When she arrived a couple of weeks ago she presented her new Thai passport but the IO refused to endorse it because it had no UK endorsement, and insisted on giving her a 30-day visit stamp in her British passport. She wants to stay this time until the end of November.

The IO was totally incorrect - there is no UK endorsement which could be put in her passport. She couldn't have ILR, because as a British citizen she doesn't need 'Leave to Remain', indefinite or otherwise, and as she already holds a UK passport she couldn't have a Certificate of Right of Abode in her Thai passport. Also there since the mid-1990s there is no embarkation stamp given on departure from the UK.

I advised that probably the only way to resolve the matter is to go back to Bangkok airport and cast herself on the mercy of the Chief Immigration Officer there, to get the original endorsement annulled and an entry stamp put in her Thai passport. She could of course extend her stay with border runs, but that's not really the point. If she tries to leave on the Thai passport the place of issue may well be spotted and again she would get no stamp, and probably an overstay fine - and of course next time she comes back there's no guarantee she wouldn't have the same problem.

I took her along to our local immigration office today to see if they could pull a string or two, but unfortunately ran into a numpty as ignorant as her colleague at Suvarnaboom. The wretched woman's opening gambit was that if our friend wanted to sort it she'd have to relinquish one or other of her nationalities. Having backed down from that she became a little more helpful, and the final suggestion was that if she could present her Tabien Baan (which she hadn't brought with her), she could get a 1-year extension for 1900Baht.

So there you go - a Thai citizen is tonight preparing to apply and pay for an extension of stay in her own country. I believe she's just storing up trouble, but what do I know about it....

John, I'm tempted to say " Only in Thailand", but I'm sure this anomaly is found elsewhere. Since dual nationality is, I believe, against the Thai consitution ( after a citizen reaches a certain age (?), I can see the arguments for both sides. That's why I said I was playing Devil's Advocate. I was hoping to stimulate some interesting points of view, and your post is exactly that. Hope all is well with you ?

[bangkockney]

I would have thought that if you have Thai nationality you cannot be an overstayer. Logically, you don't need a visa to enter, or stay in, Thailand.

The OP apparently entered Thailand using his Swedish passport, immigration will therefore consider him Swedish and he needs to clear that entry stamp.

Indeed, it can be a problem.

My wife and I have a friend, dual UK/Thai national, who has lived in the UK for 30 years and in recent times just travelled on her UK passport. Up to 18 months ago she hadn't been to Thailand for many years. Having now bought a property near us in Thailand, and likely to spend a little more time here, she got a new Thai passport from the RTE in London. When she arrived a couple of weeks ago she presented her new Thai passport but the IO refused to endorse it because it had no UK endorsement, and insisted on giving her a 30-day visit stamp in her British passport. She wants to stay this time until the end of November.

The IO was totally incorrect - there is no UK endorsement which could be put in her passport. She couldn't have ILR, because as a British citizen she doesn't need 'Leave to Remain', indefinite or otherwise, and as she already holds a UK passport she couldn't have a Certificate of Right of Abode in her Thai passport. Also there since the mid-1990s there is no embarkation stamp given on departure from the UK.

I advised that probably the only way to resolve the matter is to go back to Bangkok airport and cast herself on the mercy of the Chief Immigration Officer there, to get the original endorsement annulled and an entry stamp put in her Thai passport. She could of course extend her stay with border runs, but that's not really the point. If she tries to leave on the Thai passport the place of issue may well be spotted and again she would get no stamp, and probably an overstay fine - and of course next time she comes back there's no guarantee she wouldn't have the same problem.

I took her along to our local immigration office today to see if they could pull a string or two, but unfortunately ran into a numpty as ignorant as her colleague at Suvarnaboom. The wretched woman's opening gambit was that if our friend wanted to sort it she'd have to relinquish one or other of her nationalities. Having backed down from that she became a little more helpful, and the final suggestion was that if she could present her Tabien Baan (which she hadn't brought with her), she could get a 1-year extension for 1900Baht.

So there you go - a Thai citizen is tonight preparing to apply and pay for an extension of stay in her own country. I believe she's just storing up trouble, but what do I know about it....

John, I'm tempted to say " Only in Thailand", but I'm sure this anomaly is found elsewhere. Since dual nationality is, I believe, against the Thai consitution ( after a citizen reaches a certain age (?), I can see the arguments for both sides. That's why I said I was playing Devil's Advocate. I was hoping to stimulate some interesting points of view, and your post is exactly that. Hope all is well with you ?

The Thai Nationality Act gives dual nationals the option to choose a nationality at 20 or 21. It does not state a punishment for not doing so and therefore retaining both.

Dual nationality is no problem in Thailand.

[VisasPlus]

See.......... ..one lives and learns something new every day.

[Eff1n2ret]

John, I'm tempted to say " Only in Thailand", but I'm sure this anomaly is found elsewhere. Since dual nationality is, I believe, against the Thai consitution ( after a citizen reaches a certain age (?), I can see the arguments for both sides. That's why I said I was playing Devil's Advocate. I was hoping to stimulate some interesting points of view, and your post is exactly that. Hope all is well with you ?

The Thai Nationality Act gives dual nationals the option to choose a nationality at 20 or 21. It does not state a punishment for not doing so and therefore retaining both.

Dual nationality is no problem in Thailand.

Having just looked through this:- http://burmalibrary.org/docs3/THAILAND%27s_Nationality_Act.htm - I believe you are correct. Section 13 refers to a Thai woman acquiring her foreign husband's nationality by marriage, but only provides for the possibility for her to renounce Thai citizenship, not a requirement to do so. I doubt this provision of the 1965 Act has been amended, but I stand to be corrected.

[winone]

U can leave with yr foreign passport but when you come back with your thai passport, they will find that you do not have an exit stamp fm Thai and they wont let u use yr thai passport, I have try that and it didnt work. I am also looking for a solution for the kids.

[VisasPlus]

U can leave with yr foreign passport but when you come back with your thai passport, they will find that you do not have an exit stamp fm Thai and they wont let u use yr thai passport, I have try that and it didnt work. I am also looking for a solution for the kids.

I can't dispute what you say because I don't know. But, do you mean to say that if you left Thailand on a foreign passport, and returned to Thailand with only a Thai passport ( maybe you lost your foreign pasport, or renounced your foreign citizenship while overseas) , then Thai Immigration will refuse to let you enter your own country even though you have a Thai passport and Thai nationality ?

[bangkockney]

U can leave with yr foreign passport but when you come back with your thai passport, they will find that you do not have an exit stamp fm Thai and they wont let u use yr thai passport, I have try that and it didnt work. I am also looking for a solution for the kids.

Not sure though as my son entered Thailand on a completely clean Thai passport.

Having said that his passport was issued outside of Thailand which might have made the difference.

Most likely explanation I think is that you need to escalate it at immigration - to someone more senior - to be dealt with properly (no exit stamp in Thailand issued Thai passport).

The situation that VisasPlus outlines is an interesting example.

Edited October 21, 2011 by bangkockney

[p_brownstone]

U can leave with yr foreign passport but when you come back with your thai passport, they will find that you do not have an exit stamp fm Thai and they wont let u use yr thai passport, I have try that and it didnt work. I am also looking for a solution for the kids.

A Thai National cannot be refused entry to Thailand - even with an expired Thai passport Immigration cannot refuse entry.

If you encounter any problems with a low level Immigration Officer just politely ask to speak to a more senior Official.

Patrick

[samran]

U can leave with yr foreign passport but when you come back with your thai passport, they will find that you do not have an exit stamp fm Thai and they wont let u use yr thai passport, I have try that and it didnt work. I am also looking for a solution for the kids.

Not sure though as my son entered Thailand on a completely clean Thai passport.

Having said that his passport was issued outside of Thailand which might have made the difference.

Most likely explanation I think is that you need to escalate it at immigration - to someone more senior - to be dealt with properly (no exit stamp in Thailand issued Thai passport).

The situation that VisasPlus outlines is an interesting example.

The way to get around it is to escalate it to a more senior officer at the airport. Occasionally a junior officer will not know how to handle the situation and tell you that you need to be stamped in on your non-Thai passport.

Simply refuse, as of course, a Thai national can not be refused entry. Hold your ground and ask to speak to a senior officer who can over ride the system.

[bangkockney]

U can leave with yr foreign passport but when you come back with your thai passport, they will find that you do not have an exit stamp fm Thai and they wont let u use yr thai passport, I have try that and it didnt work. I am also looking for a solution for the kids.

Not sure though as my son entered Thailand on a completely clean Thai passport.

Having said that his passport was issued outside of Thailand which might have made the difference.

Most likely explanation I think is that you need to escalate it at immigration - to someone more senior - to be dealt with properly (no exit stamp in Thailand issued Thai passport).

The situation that VisasPlus outlines is an interesting example.

The way to get around it is to escalate it to a more senior officer at the airport. Occasionally a junior officer will not know how to handle the situation and tell you that you need to be stamped in on your non-Thai passport.

Simply refuse, as of course, a Thai national can not be refused entry. Hold your ground and ask to speak to a senior officer who can over ride the system.

Indeed, thanks for confirming what I said. I've always thought it sounds rather silly refusing entry to a Thai citizen!

[samran]

John, I'm tempted to say " Only in Thailand", but I'm sure this anomaly is found elsewhere. Since dual nationality is, I believe, against the Thai consitution ( after a citizen reaches a certain age (?), I can see the arguments for both sides. That's why I said I was playing Devil's Advocate. I was hoping to stimulate some interesting points of view, and your post is exactly that. Hope all is well with you ?

The Thai Nationality Act gives dual nationals the option to choose a nationality at 20 or 21. It does not state a punishment for not doing so and therefore retaining both.

Dual nationality is no problem in Thailand.

Having just looked through this:- http://burmalibrary.org/docs3/THAILAND%27s_Nationality_Act.htm - I believe you are correct. Section 13 refers to a Thai woman acquiring her foreign husband's nationality by marriage, but only provides for the possibility for her to renounce Thai citizenship, not a requirement to do so. I doubt this provision of the 1965 Act has been amended, but I stand to be corrected.

Arkady will probably be along shortly to outline the ins and outs, however the simple fact is that the third version of the Thai nationality act passed in 1992 has effectively made dual citizenship possible.Subsequent amendments in 2008 have only sought to widen the scope of who can access Thai nationality, and in the legislation at least, wipe out vestiges of law which effectively discriminated against dual national children born to foreign fathers/Thai mothers but not dual national children born to foreign mothers/Thai fathers.

For a child born to a foreign parent the law only states that between ages of 20 and 21 they have the option of renouncing citizenship. If that option isn't taken up, then there is no penalty. However many people do read this as 'you must choose' and then assume that dual citizenship isn't possible (which it wasn't in many cases before 1992).

For a Thai spouse, it is entirely possible to take up the nationality of their husband/wife.

The only grey are seems to be when a Thai independently moves overseas and independently takes up a new nationality under their own volition (ie didn't get married to a foreign spouse, didn't naturalise as a Thai and wasn't born with a second nationality). However it doesn't appear this clause is policed at all. This last bit was actually quite similar to how Australian citizenship law and Australia's position on dual citizenship ran for a long time.

Edited October 21, 2011 by samran

[AyG]

I'm probably missing something, but why not just forget about the Swedish passport completely and travel on the Thai one?

[samran]

I'm probably missing something, but why not just forget about the Swedish passport completely and travel on the Thai one?

been a fair few reports on Thai Visa of late where people have tried this (ie entered Thailand on foreign passport and tried to leave on the Thai one).

Problem was immigration computer picked it up, so they needed to be stamped out on their foreign one and pay the overstay which they were trying to avoid.

[samran]

I go to the immigration and pay the fine.

People normally pay the overstay fine at the airport while on their way out.

Of course, I understand the overstay system. But, for the sake of argument, what if he refuses to pay ? Is he arrestable ? Can he, as a Thai national, be refused permission to exit Thailand ? If he commited any other other crime, could he be deported as he is still in Thailand as a Swedish national ? I doubt it. I am playing Devil's Advocate here, of course.

Doesn't make sense for sure and opens up the absurd situations you are talking about.

Perhaps why places like Australia and the US make it virtually impossible for their citizens to enter 'home' on a foreign passport and will not grant a visa in their 'other passport' to enter 'home'....

[Mario2008]

Moved to visa section for Thailand, as the question is Thailand related.

[Mario2008]

The big question is how a Thai judge will rule on a case like this. Regarding overstay they are already more lenient than imigration and will give a lesser fine, indicating they do not agree with immigration on the severity of the offence.

The problem is of course that if you don't pay at the airport they will not allow you to leave and by the time you are brought before a judge you flight will be long gone.

[DonnieME]

The big question is how a Thai judge will rule on a case like this. Regarding overstay they are already more lenient than imigration and will give a lesser fine, indicating they do not agree with immigration on the severity of the offence.

The problem is of course that if you don't pay at the airport they will not allow you to leave and by the time you are brought before a judge you flight will be long gone.

I've booked a plane for China on 16-NOV, so I'm thinking I'm going to go to the immigration and pay the fine before I go to the airport to avoid being pulled to the side and sent to court or anything like that. Don't want to miss the plane.

So all I will need to do is to present my passport, report my overstay was due to negligence (?) and that I'm a Thai Citizen.

Pay the fine and then, do I need to do the whole 90 days report or do I tell them I'm leaving the country?

On the 2nd of November, I'm going to go make my Thai passport.

Is there anything I need to do with the Thai passport before I leave Thailand? or is it better to leave it blank?

Thank you for all of your help guys, it's been a lot better talking to you than these Visa companies.

[Mario2008]

No need to do anything with the Thai passport, just leave on the foreign passport.

[DonnieME]

No need to do anything with the Thai passport, just leave on the foreign passport.

Ok, thank you.

In May, I need to go to Germany.

So if I understand it right, when I stamp out of the country I use the thai passport.

When I arrive in Germany, I stamp in using EU passport.

When I leave Germany, I stamp out using EU passport.

When I arrive in Thailand, I stamp in using Thai passport?

This whole double citizenship is screwing with my head.. so appreciate all of your help guys.

-Donnie

[samran]

No need to do anything with the Thai passport, just leave on the foreign passport.

Ok, thank you.

In May, I need to go to Germany.

So if I understand it right, when I stamp out of the country I use the thai passport.

When I arrive in Germany, I stamp in using EU passport.

When I leave Germany, I stamp out using EU passport.

When I arrive in Thailand, I stamp in using Thai passport?

This whole double citizenship is screwing with my head.. so appreciate all of your help guys.

-Donnie

That is right. So long as you have come into Thailand on your Thai passport.

[Mario2008]

And when you check in at the airport you show the airline both passports, to confirm that you don't need a visa for Thailand. (presuming the tickets are bought under the EU passport).