Pheu Thai And Red Shirts Do Nothing To Help Their Own

[Moruya]

I haven't seen this on here anywhere but a Thai colleague assures me that Jatuporn had his red shirt ripped from him and burned and was accused of having switched allegiance to the PTP in one of the flood-stricken provinces.

[TAWP]

And before anyone accused me again of being a "Thaksin apologist" - i have no real problem with charges against Thaksin, as long as it is a free and fair trial, and as long as his collaborators, etc. are not spared - which is quite impossible.

So unless the coup-makers are charged Thaksin should not be charged for the crimes that lead up to the coup and that would never have reached the court system if he wasn't ousted?

Why should his charges depend on charges against others? Why can't we start somewhere and hope we down the line end up with all criminals in jail and out of power, even if it takes some time?

I don't think that i have said what you imply.

Again - i find it rather inconsistent by posters that cry for Thaksin to be brought to justice for his alleged crimes against democracy, and the same time ignore the 2006 military coup, which is also a crime against democracy.

As to who is supposed to be on trial or not, i personally would like to refrain from airing my views on this here right now.

I clearly wrote that I want all criminals to be jailed and out of power.

You don't want to same the same thing.

Speaks for itself.

[yoshiwara]

And before anyone accused me again of being a "Thaksin apologist" - i have no real problem with charges against Thaksin, as long as it is a free and fair trial, and as long as his collaborators, etc. are not spared - which is quite impossible.

So unless the coup-makers are charged Thaksin should not be charged for the crimes that lead up to the coup and that would never have reached the court system if he wasn't ousted?

Why should his charges depend on charges against others? Why can't we start somewhere and hope we down the line end up with all criminals in jail and out of power, even if it takes some time?

...because the objective is to manufacture a 'get out of jail free' card for Thaksin. Any argument will do. Why? because if for the Stalinist, sorry, erstwhile Social Democrats, support for Thaksin is the means to their illusary liberation objectives, then unconditional support is in order as it has been all the way down the line whatever the protestations of independence. For those with an appreciation of arcane left-wing disputes of the past, our forum red cheerleaders are guilty of the lovely term 'liquidationism' ie complete organisational and political subordination to the supposedly allied force namely Thaksin org . The reds were prattling on last year about 'class war' but none of them knew anything what this meant in practice. Maybe in this game one of them will 'ask a friend'. But don't hold your breath for the answer. All pieces on their chess board are moved to defend Thaksin from checkmate. Know that and you know everything about the forum cheerleaders. Its a very loud quack.

Edited November 1, 2011 by yoshiwara

[Buchholz]

For the foreseeable future Thaksin will stay a large part, or symbol, of this movement as a whole, even if there are minority groups under the Red Shirts that dislike Thaksin almost as much as the Democrats. For those groups mostly though their idea of changes are quite more... lets say... radical.

But regardless, people who do like Thaksin have the right to like him. They have voted for him, and their vote was taken away by the 2006 military coup. It does not really matter if us foreigners here like him or not - it is Thais that cast their vote, and have to decide over who will be their prime minister, and not us. The same way, people who dislike Thaksin, and will note vote for him (or whoever stands in his place) have a right to feel that way.

Sure they have the right to like him and every other criminal that suits their fancy. That doesn't mean the rest of the Thai people don't have the right to bring those criminals to justice. They really don't seem to have the least idea of what a democracy entails and their leadership works hard to keep it that way.

What complicates the matter is that there was a military coup in 2006 against Thaksin, who was the two time elected prime minister (5 times, actually, sort of, if you count the nullified 2006 elections, and the two post coup elections, and yes - i am aware of the fact that at the time of the coup he was caretaker PM, which still does not legitimize the coup), which in itself is a treasonable charge, and not exactly what democracy entails. There are many Thais that would like to see the coup makers brought to justice as well, regardless of the self-written amnesty in the constitution sponsored by the coup makers.

So many crimes, so many criminals...

To be consistent in your stand for democracy, and to be objective - please support also a charge against the coup makers as well, not just against Thaksin. Otherwise you could be accused of bias...

And before anyone accused me again of being a "Thaksin apologist" - i have no real problem with charges against Thaksin, as long as it is a free and fair trial, and as long as his collaborators, etc. are not spared - which is quite impossible.

Fair enough.

Ok, let's tackle these crimes in chronological order.

Thaksin to prison for 30 years is first up.

And then take it from there forward.

Coup makers

Red Shirts

Yellow Shirts

Red Shirts, again

Red Shirts, again

Now we're caught up.

.

[serenitynow]

And before anyone accused me again of being a "Thaksin apologist" - i have no real problem with charges against Thaksin, as long as it is a free and fair trial, and as long as his collaborators, etc. are not spared - which is quite impossible.

So unless the coup-makers are charged Thaksin should not be charged for the crimes that lead up to the coup and that would never have reached the court system if he wasn't ousted?

Why should his charges depend on charges against others? Why can't we start somewhere and hope we down the line end up with all criminals in jail and out of power, even if it takes some time?

I don't think that i have said what you imply.

Again - i find it rather inconsistent by posters that cry for Thaksin to be brought to justice for his alleged crimes against democracy, and the same time ignore the 2006 military coup, which is also a crime against democracy.

As to who is supposed to be on trial or not, i personally would like to refrain from airing my views on this here right now.

As far as I'm concerned they can line the road from Bangkok to Chiang Mai with posts bearing the heads of all of those people. Coup leaders, Thaksin, Yaowapa, Potjaman, Banharn, Robert Amsterdam, Nattawut, Jatuporn, Chalerm's family and literally thousands of others. Let no one not seek justice simply because some have escaped it. Doing otherwise is what makes one an apologist.

While I supported the coup that ousted Thaksin it wouldn't bother me in the slightest if the coupmakers were prosecuted. Taking the heat and bearing the risk of your actions is what being heroic is all about.

Edited November 1, 2011 by serenitynow

[metisdead]

A post has been removed as a poster had deleted quoted post headers as he had reached the maximum number of nested quotes allowed leading to misunderstanding of who posted what. When deleting quoted posts to meet the nested quotes criteria, be careful so as to delete individual posts while keeping the quote headers intact. When replying to certain parts of a post, learn how to use the Insert quotation feature, just copy the content you wish to respond to and paste the content in between the quote brackets.

[Buchholz]

I haven't seen this on here anywhere but a Thai colleague assures me that Jatuporn had his red shirt ripped from him and burned and was accused of having switched allegiance to the PTP in one of the flood-stricken provinces.

Thank you for sharing.

Could you please ask if he has any additional information?

[waza]

I haven't seen this on here anywhere but a Thai colleague assures me that Jatuporn had his red shirt ripped from him and burned and was accused of having switched allegiance to the PTP in one of the flood-stricken provinces.

At last something of interest amongst the plethra of verbal diarrhea

[TomnearCentral]

Just in case people are interested and want to check for themselves if the stickers that were discussed earlier are real, they can see them under the flyover at the Phahonyothin / Ratchadaphisek intersection in the direction of Rama 9 road. I know this was mentioned earlier already, but I just found it "interesting" that the boats are still standing there in the same state as apparently a few days ago without them seeing a lot of water until now. Slightly surprising as one would have thought that they could have very good use for them a few kilometer up the road.

I did not have the guts to take additional photos to prove that the stickers exist (therefore I just attach again the photo that was posted earlier here), as the people at the tend did not really look that friendly and the police uniform that was hanging in the tend did also not necessarily convince me to think that it was a good idea to take some photos. Noteworthy for me was also that there was a rather big amount of relief goods in the tends as well waiting to be delivered to ...??

I wish Nick could find some time to talk to the chaps there to find out more about them and their motives, but I am sure he has more important things to do.....

[whybother]

What complicates the matter is that there was a military coup in 2006 against Thaksin, who was the two time elected prime minister (5 times, actually, sort of, if you count the nullified 2006 elections, and the two post coup elections, and yes - i am aware of the fact that at the time of the coup he was caretaker PM, which still does not legitimize the coup), which in itself is a treasonable charge, and not exactly what democracy entails.

<snip>

Hate to be pedantic, but Thaksin wasn't elected PM in the 2006 election, even before it was nullified.

And if you're counting other PMs, then you need to include Somchai as well.

[Moruya]

And before anyone accused me again of being a "Thaksin apologist" - i have no real problem with charges against Thaksin, as long as it is a free and fair trial, and as long as his collaborators, etc. are not spared - which is quite impossible.

So unless the coup-makers are charged Thaksin should not be charged for the crimes that lead up to the coup and that would never have reached the court system if he wasn't ousted?

Why should his charges depend on charges against others? Why can't we start somewhere and hope we down the line end up with all criminals in jail and out of power, even if it takes some time?

I don't think that i have said what you imply.

Again - i find it rather inconsistent by posters that cry for Thaksin to be brought to justice for his alleged crimes against democracy, and the same time ignore the 2006 military coup, which is also a crime against democracy.

As to who is supposed to be on trial or not, i personally would like to refrain from airing my views on this here right now.

I find this very interesting and I'm having a real issue understanding why someone who wants to state as many times as you have that you are no pro-red figures in my mind with a bright crimson epidermis.

If memory serves me, back in the weeks before the bloodless coup, Thaksin had been appointed as "caretaker prime minister" following sham elections where he gave the opposition no time to prepare (against the Constitution) after the previous election had been declared null and void beacuse of his vote buying and paying "screaming lord sutch" parties to oppose him to make it look good. Normally a number of months would be allowed to organise an election but Thaksin had the hump and wandered into the wilderness leaving the country unmanaged. With 2 weeks to go before he was supposed to have organised elections (impossible now) the military stepped in and took control.

Who was to blame here? If they had waited 2 weeks then it would have been OK?

[Moruya]

I haven't seen this on here anywhere but a Thai colleague assures me that Jatuporn had his red shirt ripped from him and burned and was accused of having switched allegiance to the PTP in one of the flood-stricken provinces.

At last something of interest amongst the plethra of verbal diarrhea

It may well be written diarrhoea if it isn't substantiated but the thought of it appealed to me.

[Buchholz]

Just in case people are interested and want to check for themselves if the stickers that were discussed earlier are real, they can see them under the flyover at the Phahonyothin / Ratchadaphisek intersection in the direction of Rama 9 road. I know this was mentioned earlier already, but I just found it "interesting" that the boats are still standing there in the same state as apparently a few days ago without them seeing a lot of water until now. Slightly surprising as one would have thought that they could have very good use for them a few kilometer up the road.

I did not have the guts to take additional photos to prove that the stickers exist (therefore I just attach again the photo that was posted earlier here), as the people at the tend did not really look that friendly and the police uniform that was hanging in the tend did also not necessarily convince me to think that it was a good idea to take some photos. Noteworthy for me was also that there was a rather big amount of relief goods in the tends as well waiting to be delivered to ...??

I wish Nick could find some time to talk to the chaps there to find out more about them and their motives, but I am sure he has more important things to do.....

Thank your posting your on-the-ground experiences.

Always good to remain prudent (and safe) when considering interacting, especially if it involves photographing.

It wouldn't be the first time with this group for an outsider to be set upon.

Better to err on side of caution with these guys.

As you say, it is shame that these valuable resources are not being utilized apparently.

.

[Moruya]

I haven't seen this on here anywhere but a Thai colleague assures me that Jatuporn had his red shirt ripped from him and burned and was accused of having switched allegiance to the PTP in one of the flood-stricken provinces.

Thank you for sharing.

Could you please ask if he has any additional information?

It was a she and I shall ask in the morning

[metisdead]

A post in which the quoted posts had been trimmed to nothing have been removed.

[Buchholz]

I haven't seen this on here anywhere but a Thai colleague assures me that Jatuporn had his red shirt ripped from him and burned and was accused of having switched allegiance to the PTP in one of the flood-stricken provinces.

Thank you for sharing.

Could you please ask if he has any additional information?

It was a she and I shall ask in the morning

Oops... sorry about that,

and thank you.

[BNZ]

...because the objective is to manufacture a 'get out of jail free' card for Thaksin. Any argument will do. Why? because if for the Stalinist, sorry, erstwhile Social Democrats, support for Thaksin is the means to their illusary liberation objectives, then unconditional support is in order as it has been all the way down the line whatever the protestations of independence. For those with an appreciation of arcane left-wing disputes of the past, our forum red cheerleaders are guilty of the lovely term 'liquidationism' ie complete organisational and political subordination to the supposedly allied force namely Thaksin org . The reds were prattling on last year about 'class war' but none of them knew anything what this meant in practice. Maybe in this game one of them will 'ask a friend'. But don't hold your breath for the answer. All pieces on their chess board are moved to defend Thaksin from checkmate. Know that and you know everything about the forum cheerleaders. Its a very loud quack.

Haw haw excellent post as usual yoshiwara.

Thank you.

[waza]

I haven't seen this on here anywhere but a Thai colleague assures me that Jatuporn had his red shirt ripped from him and burned and was accused of having switched allegiance to the PTP in one of the flood-stricken provinces.

At last something of interest amongst the plethra of verbal diarrhea

It may well be written diarrhoea if it isn't substantiated but the thought of it appealed to me.

Atually I found you post interesting, it was the continual posts about Thaskin I disliked

[whybother]

Atually I found you post interesting, it was the continual posts about Thaskin I disliked

It's a thread about PTP and the red shirts. Why wouldn't there be posts about Thaksin?

[waza]

Atually I found you post interesting, it was the continual posts about Thaskin I disliked

It's a thread about PTP and the red shirts. Why wouldn't there be posts about Thaksin?

Its a thread about PTP and red shirts not helping their members. Considering that Thaskin has been heard from since the flooding began, except to lay claim to the donations, I wouldnt think there is a lot to say about him. Furthermore, endless debate about his criminal activities of the past are both unrelated to the thread and plain boring.

Edited November 1, 2011 by waza

[whybother]

Atually I found you post interesting, it was the continual posts about Thaskin I disliked

It's a thread about PTP and the red shirts. Why wouldn't there be posts about Thaksin?

Its a thread about PTP and red shirts not helping their members. Considering that Thaskin has been heard from since the flooding began, except to lay claim to the donations, I wouldnt think there is a lot to say about him.

That just adds to the "not helping their own" doesn't it?

[serenitynow]

Atually I found you post interesting, it was the continual posts about Thaskin I disliked

It's a thread about PTP and the red shirts. Why wouldn't there be posts about Thaksin?

Its a thread about PTP and red shirts not helping their members. Considering that Thaskin has been heard from since the flooding began, except to lay claim to the donations, I wouldnt think there is a lot to say about him. Furthermore, endless debate about his criminal activities of the past are both unrelated to the thread and plain boring.

RT @suthichai: Thaksin is back on Twitter: Urging Thais to turn crisis into opportunity.>talking to himself, i presume:-)/via@veen_NT

[Buchholz]

Atually I found you post interesting, it was the continual posts about Thaskin I disliked

It's a thread about PTP and the red shirts. Why wouldn't there be posts about Thaksin?

Its a thread about PTP and red shirts not helping their members. Considering that Thaskin has been heard from since the flooding began, except to lay claim to the donations, I wouldnt think there is a lot to say about him. Furthermore, endless debate about his criminal activities of the past are both unrelated to the thread and plain boring.

He has spoken out about his project to alleviate all future flooding in Thailand. Although he was not willing to reveal any of the specifics with the implication that he needed to be here to implement it.

He did talk of its price tag, however, of 400 Billion Baht.

A week later Yingluck has just recently announced her project to alleviate all future flooding in Thailand, again without much specifics, other than the price tag is now doubled to 800 Billion Baht.

Apparently for that added amount, we at least now have a new imaginative name for it:

The New Thailand Project.

.

Edited November 1, 2011 by Buchholz

[GentlemanJim]

Sounds like a mega dam is on the way. It wouldn't be built on any vast amounts of land the Shiniwatra's may own up North by any chance?

[longway]

I haven't seen this on here anywhere but a Thai colleague assures me that Jatuporn had his red shirt ripped from him and burned and was accused of having switched allegiance to the PTP in one of the flood-stricken provinces.

Thank you for sharing.

Could you please ask if he has any additional information?

I hope that is true

[Moruya]

I haven't seen this on here anywhere but a Thai colleague assures me that Jatuporn had his red shirt ripped from him and burned and was accused of having switched allegiance to the PTP in one of the flood-stricken provinces.

Thank you for sharing.

Could you please ask if he has any additional information?

I hope that is true

I have been sent 2 articles in Thai:

http://www.sritrangnews.com/ncontent/news.php?nid=1937

http://www.thaiday.com/Politics/ViewNews.aspx?NewsID=9540000138380

[Siripon]

I haven't seen this on here anywhere but a Thai colleague assures me that Jatuporn had his red shirt ripped from him and burned and was accused of having switched allegiance to the PTP in one of the flood-stricken provinces.

Thank you for sharing.

Could you please ask if he has any additional information?

I hope that is true

It was in Payao province, 300 to 400 red shirts booed Jatupon and Korkaeow for coming to speak in favour of a local politician who had switched from the red shirts to Pheua Thai.

[Siripon]

And before anyone accused me again of being a "Thaksin apologist" - i have no real problem with charges against Thaksin, as long as it is a free and fair trial, and as long as his collaborators, etc. are not spared - which is quite impossible.

So unless the coup-makers are charged Thaksin should not be charged for the crimes that lead up to the coup and that would never have reached the court system if he wasn't ousted?

Why should his charges depend on charges against others? Why can't we start somewhere and hope we down the line end up with all criminals in jail and out of power, even if it takes some time?

I don't think that i have said what you imply.

Again - i find it rather inconsistent by posters that cry for Thaksin to be brought to justice for his alleged crimes against democracy, and the same time ignore the 2006 military coup, which is also a crime against democracy.

As to who is supposed to be on trial or not, i personally would like to refrain from airing my views on this here right now.

There is no inconsistency if you see the necessity at that time for a coup. There was no other way at the time to bring Thaksin to trial, which is why many educated people at the time supported the coup, most of them were against General Sujinda in 1992, but they saw no other way in 2006 to let the checks and balances work.

The coup happened because of Thaksin's authoritarian rule, and no doubt he would love to reimpose that, as in the latest attempt to squash the freedom of the press.

[jayboy]

There is no inconsistency if you see the necessity at that time for a coup. There was no other way at the time to bring Thaksin to trial, which is why many educated people at the time supported the coup, most of them were against General Sujinda in 1992, but they saw no other way in 2006 to let the checks and balances work.

The coup happened because of Thaksin's authoritarian rule, and no doubt he would love to reimpose that, as in the latest attempt to squash the freedom of the press.

If you are right that many educated people supported the 2006 coup, and I think you are, I wonder whether that group with the benefit of hindsight now takes a different view.In other words in full knowledge of the difficulties do they now think it would have been better to proceeded down the democratic route given the disastrous events the coup set in motion.Few intelligent people now dispute the "cure" was more toxic than the disease itself.

Thaksin's authoritarian rule was only one of the reasons for the coup but no need to explain that in detail here.I would have though rather than fantasise about coups it would be better for the Democrats to reform themselves so they could actually win a democratic election.

Incidentally Suchinda - whose crimes were so much greater than Thaksin's - had a great deal of middle class support as well.

[Krungbin]

And before anyone accused me again of being a "Thaksin apologist" - i have no real problem with charges against Thaksin, as long as it is a free and fair trial, and as long as his collaborators, etc. are not spared - which is quite impossible.

So unless the coup-makers are charged Thaksin should not be charged for the crimes that lead up to the coup and that would never have reached the court system if he wasn't ousted?

Why should his charges depend on charges against others? Why can't we start somewhere and hope we down the line end up with all criminals in jail and out of power, even if it takes some time?

I don't think that i have said what you imply.

Again - i find it rather inconsistent by posters that cry for Thaksin to be brought to justice for his alleged crimes against democracy, and the same time ignore the 2006 military coup, which is also a crime against democracy.

As to who is supposed to be on trial or not, i personally would like to refrain from airing my views on this here right now.

You are right, it is inconsistent to cry for Taksin to be brought to justice and to ignore the leaders of the 2006 coup.

But perhaps, nobody - and Taksin to start with - wants to have the military leaders of the coup brought to justice as they would be forced to reveal the real truth and the real reasons that triggered their move.