Pheu Thai And Red Shirts Do Nothing To Help Their Own

[rubl]

If the stickers are true then I would have to condemn it as I am a person who hates any kind of discrimination at all.

Now go to google and enter the search string below

red shirt buffalo site:www.thaivisa.com"

So how many hits you get! that's only TV and doesn't include Thai forums.

So answer this why do we highly educated Farang make such derogative, insulting, prejudice and discriminating comments about Thai people?

I mean what do we get from it? and do we really feel better for it?

I am just amazed.

I'm not sure if you intentionally use the google search query in a wrong way, or if it is just a mistake.

red shirt buffalo site:www.thaivisa.com"

--> this will find ANY results for the words "red" "shirt" and "buffalo" ANYWHERE on the site thaivisa.com. The words have no relation with each other & are not necessarily on the same page.

So, for example, if someone made a post somewhere about the landscape of Thailand, talking about a buffalo, it will show up in your results.

Only ONE of the 3 words is enough, so that i shows up in the results.

This is why you get the very high number of results, but it is not an argument that people used the term "red shirts buffalo" on the thaivisa website.

if you want to search for this, you have to google:

"red shirt buffalo" site:"www.thaivisa.com"

you will see that the results are 0

Now, this also doesn't proof, that there's no inflamatory language towards red shirts, it only proofes, tat this exact term ("red shirt buffalo") doesnt exist on the thaivisa website.

As I mentioned in #609, "if true" and obfuscation, no "sorry, I was wrong".

Anyway trying yahoo with "red shirt buffalo" I get about 40 results, as Yahoo also goes for embedded ",", ".", "/" and so. Included this gem

"Red Shirt. Buffalo Bill's Wild West Show"

http://www.worldcat.org/title/chief-red-shirt-of-the-ogalala-sioux/oclc/40074541

[yoshiwara]

I used to think that many Thailand expats of a "certain age" were ex-hippies and survivors of the sixties; apparently I was wrong. Doing something that you think is cool and affronts the older generation is a part of the transition from adolescence to adulthood. Were any of you guys who are appalled at the boat stickers never in any way rebellious? Was your hair too long? Did you listen to music that was a cacophony to your parents? Did you experiment with alcohol and soft drugs (perhaps you didn't inhale)? Did you lust after young women? I could go on but I don't expect to convince any of you that there was unlikely to be a malign intent in what these silly individuals did , merely the thoughtlessness of young adulthood

Nice perspective. I agree about the likeliness of mal-intent. I felt that way before there was a first-hand account, mostly because human nature is strongly aligned in the opposite direction, and in a time of crisis, people are almost always generous and helpful even toward complete strangers.

Trying to make a link between the Thai reds and 1960s hippies is no doubt an opportunity for an aspirant sociology postgrad somewhere but to others smacks of yet another limp effort to whitewash the unacceptable. Keep em coming chaps.

[Buchholz]

I used to think that many Thailand expats of a "certain age" were ex-hippies and survivors of the sixties; apparently I was wrong. Doing something that you think is cool and affronts the older generation is a part of the transition from adolescence to adulthood. Were any of you guys who are appalled at the boat stickers never in any way rebellious? Was your hair too long? Did you listen to music that was a cacophony to your parents? Did you experiment with alcohol and soft drugs (perhaps you didn't inhale)? Did you lust after young women? I could go on but I don't expect to convince any of you that there was unlikely to be a malign intent in what these silly individuals did , merely the thoughtlessness of young adulthood

Nice perspective. I agree about the likeliness of mal-intent. I felt that way before there was a first-hand account, mostly because human nature is strongly aligned in the opposite direction, and in a time of crisis, people are almost always generous and helpful even toward complete strangers.

Trying to make a link between the Thai reds and 1960s hippies is no doubt an opportunity for an aspirant sociology postgrad somewhere but to others smacks of yet another limp effort to whitewash the unacceptable. Keep em coming chaps.

A nice new spin variant.

Not content with with the non-nonsensical Anti-Red = Anti-Thai,

lets try and drop a blooper down the foul line with Anti-Red = Hypocrit Hippies

.

Edited November 5, 2011 by Buchholz

[Siam Simon]

The reason/excuse then supposedly given for said sticker (it looks cool) is then so weak one would have to be very gullible and/or biased to believe the excuse without further evidence.

Incredibly weak, and the fact that Nick simply accepted this reasoning - it looks cool - as being a plausible and reasonable explanation, and the fact that he didn't respond back with "come on guys, nobody is going to buy that crap - the sticker is highly offensive and completely undermines any good work you might be doing, and furthermore, you placed it on the boats not because it looks cool - stop insulting me with that BS - but because it reflects how strongly you feel about people who are not aligned with your political view - and whether or not you really would refuse to help someone who wasn't a red, it makes little difference when that is what you are so publicly advertising", speaks volumes about Nick's position, not that it wasn't already blatantly obvious of course.

As others have said though, i actually do respect the work Nick does and would be the first to acknowledge how well informed he is. I just wish he would be a little more candid about his agenda in all this - it is after all exposed in just about every thread in which he contributes.

My position is that i have been taught some manners, and will not attack people in such a rude way, especially when they give me satisfying, open and honest answers to all the questions i have asked, and were very friendly to me while i pestered them.

If you would ave read my posts i have stated to them, after the interview, that i find these stickers not a very smart idea, but in a more polite way as you suggested here.

And i was very clear about "my agenda" many posts back. Read the post, please.

And personally, i find the attitude of some posters here quite sickening (that is not you, right now). The almost professional moaning, whining and shitting on people, the incredible negativity that is going on here on Thaivisa is beyond believe.

I honestly hope that i will never meet some of these posters in real life.

Nick, they whine and shit on you because they are always utterly defeated by your evidence and facts. They have nowhere else to go than to attack you personally. If they don't get their hoped-for coup, I feel sorry for such countries as the Philippines.

[yoshiwara]

The reason/excuse then supposedly given for said sticker (it looks cool) is then so weak one would have to be very gullible and/or biased to believe the excuse without further evidence.

Incredibly weak, and the fact that Nick simply accepted this reasoning - it looks cool - as being a plausible and reasonable explanation, and the fact that he didn't respond back with "come on guys, nobody is going to buy that crap - the sticker is highly offensive and completely undermines any good work you might be doing, and furthermore, you placed it on the boats not because it looks cool - stop insulting me with that BS - but because it reflects how strongly you feel about people who are not aligned with your political view - and whether or not you really would refuse to help someone who wasn't a red, it makes little difference when that is what you are so publicly advertising", speaks volumes about Nick's position, not that it wasn't already blatantly obvious of course.

As others have said though, i actually do respect the work Nick does and would be the first to acknowledge how well informed he is. I just wish he would be a little more candid about his agenda in all this - it is after all exposed in just about every thread in which he contributes.

My position is that i have been taught some manners, and will not attack people in such a rude way, especially when they give me satisfying, open and honest answers to all the questions i have asked, and were very friendly to me while i pestered them.

If you would ave read my posts i have stated to them, after the interview, that i find these stickers not a very smart idea, but in a more polite way as you suggested here.

And i was very clear about "my agenda" many posts back. Read the post, please.

And personally, i find the attitude of some posters here quite sickening (that is not you, right now). The almost professional moaning, whining and shitting on people, the incredible negativity that is going on here on Thaivisa is beyond believe.

I honestly hope that i will never meet some of these posters in real life.

Nick, they whine and shit on you because they are always utterly defeated by your evidence and facts. They have nowhere else to go than to attack you personally. If they don't get their hoped-for coup, I feel sorry for such countries as the Philippines.

The 'uber-cool' nonsense is/was probably the best example of 'evidence' and 'fact' ever seen from that source and a triumph of its type. Pity that only someone pushing out the Jatuporn coup scare can fully appreciate.

Edited November 6, 2011 by yoshiwara

[jayboy]

The 'uber-cool' nonsense is/was probably the best example of 'evidence' and 'fact' ever seen from that source and a triumph of its type. Pity that only someone pushing out the Jatuporn coup scare can fully appreciate.

I have huge respect for Nick but like (shock horror) Yoshiwara have some difficulty in buying into his line on this one.I also have difficulty in accepting the matter's significance or importance.It's obviously been seized on by believers in a particular narrative in which Thaksin is Beelzebub himself and Yingluck his dim bulb clone, and the redshirts the compliant swarm of demons, and that between them are responsible for most of the flooding misery in which we find ourselves.On internet forums there will always be an anal retentive element:indeed it goes with the territory.No particular problem because obsessives soon become known and their preoccupations can be discounted as appropriate.Occasionally they come with something interesting so all grist to the mill.

For an interesting and intelligent overview please see the following article.I am afraid some won't like it because it deviates from the approved narrative by putting matters in a long term context.

http://ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=105714

Incidentally I have been reflecting on my past comments on Sukhumbhand's role and think I may have been too harsh.I do think he has been unnecessarily political but on reflection agree with Whybother and others that he has a primary duty to Bangkok and it is for the government itself to take the national view.

[ballpoint]

I have huge respect for Nick but like (shock horror) Yoshiwara have some difficulty in buying into his line on this one.I also have difficulty in accepting the matter's significance or importance.It's obviously been seized on by believers in a particular narrative in which Thaksin is Beelzebub himself and Yingluck his dim bulb clone, and the redshirts the compliant swarm of demons, and that between them are responsible for most of the flooding misery in which we find ourselves.On internet forums there will always be an anal retentive element:indeed it goes with the territory.No particular problem because obsessives soon become known and their preoccupations can be discounted as appropriate.Occasionally they come with something interesting so all grist to the mill.

For an interesting and intelligent overview please see the following article.I am afraid some won't like it because it deviates from the approved narrative by putting matters in a long term context.

http://ipsnews.net/n...p?idnews=105714

Incidentally I have been reflecting on my past comments on Sukhumbhand's role and think I may have been too harsh.I do think he has been unnecessarily political but on reflection agree with Whybother and others that he has a primary duty to Bangkok and it is for the government itself to take the national view.

The item was posted here as a thread topic, and is now to be found on the second page of Thailand News, along with 51 replies to it. My only comment would be that I have not seen anyone seriously blaming the current government for the floods - most people accept that the warnings coming down through the years have been ignored, either by greed, incompetence, or a mixture of both. What I have seen though is that a number of posters, many of whom have shown no propensity to comment on political matters on either side in the past, and so would appear to be as neutral as it is possible to be on TV, who have unfortunately been caught up in the floods, are giving us their experiences of the lack of support and clear information from FROC.

Edited November 6, 2011 by ballpoint

[jayboy]

The item was posted here as a thread topic, and is now to be found on the second page of Thailand News, along with 51 replies to it. My only comment would be that I have not seen anyone seriously blaming the current government for the floods - most people accept that the warnings coming down through the years have been ignored, either by greed, incompetence, or a mixture of both. What I have seen though is that a number of posters, many of whom have shown no propensity to comment on political matters on either side in the past, and so would appear to be as neutral as it is possible to be on TV, who have unfortunately been caught up in the floods, are giving us their experiences of the lack of support and clear information from FROC.

Sorry for reposting the article.Still it will be seen by some who like me hadn't noticed the original.

Your other comments are very sensible.I think most of us affected can agree regardless of political differences that the standard of communication by the authorities has been hopeless.Still most Thais I know never expected any different and have their own ways of obtaining information, basically pooling info with neighbours.

[pastitche]

I used to think that many Thailand expats of a "certain age" were ex-hippies and survivors of the sixties; apparently I was wrong. Doing something that you think is cool and affronts the older generation is a part of the transition from adolescence to adulthood. Were any of you guys who are appalled at the boat stickers never in any way rebellious? Was your hair too long? Did you listen to music that was a cacophony to your parents? Did you experiment with alcohol and soft drugs (perhaps you didn't inhale)? Did you lust after young women? I could go on but I don't expect to convince any of you that there was unlikely to be a malign intent in what these silly individuals did , merely the thoughtlessness of young adulthood

Nice perspective. I agree about the likeliness of mal-intent. I felt that way before there was a first-hand account, mostly because human nature is strongly aligned in the opposite direction, and in a time of crisis, people are almost always generous and helpful even toward complete strangers.

Trying to make a link between the Thai reds and 1960s hippies is no doubt an opportunity for an aspirant sociology postgrad somewhere but to others smacks of yet another limp effort to whitewash the unacceptable. Keep em coming chaps.

You completely misunderstand, which given your assumed omniscience is understandable. I was trying to suggest that there was a likelihood that this was no more than simple thoughtlessness by a group of (I assume) young men - the hippie analogy was merely a reminder that we were all young once and most of us did things which did not meet with universal aaproval from pompous old farts

[Buchholz]

I used to think that many Thailand expats of a "certain age" were ex-hippies and survivors of the sixties; apparently I was wrong. Doing something that you think is cool and affronts the older generation is a part of the transition from adolescence to adulthood. Were any of you guys who are appalled at the boat stickers never in any way rebellious? Was your hair too long? Did you listen to music that was a cacophony to your parents? Did you experiment with alcohol and soft drugs (perhaps you didn't inhale)? Did you lust after young women? I could go on but I don't expect to convince any of you that there was unlikely to be a malign intent in what these silly individuals did , merely the thoughtlessness of young adulthood

Nice perspective. I agree about the likeliness of mal-intent. I felt that way before there was a first-hand account, mostly because human nature is strongly aligned in the opposite direction, and in a time of crisis, people are almost always generous and helpful even toward complete strangers.

Trying to make a link between the Thai reds and 1960s hippies is no doubt an opportunity for an aspirant sociology postgrad somewhere but to others smacks of yet another limp effort to whitewash the unacceptable. Keep em coming chaps.

You completely misunderstand, which given your assumed omniscience is understandable. I was trying to suggest that there was a likelihood that this was no more than simple thoughtlessness by a group of (I assume) young men - the hippie analogy was merely a reminder that we were all young once and most of us did things which did not meet with universal aaproval from pompous old farts

Your whole premise is predicated on the notion that rebellious teens are responsible for the stickers.

From where do you get this notion?

Certainly not from the available photos.

.

[pastitche]

]

Your whole premise is predicated on the notion that rebellious teens are responsible for the stickers.

From where do you get this notion?

Certainly not from the available photos.

.

At no time did I mention "teens". I said that I assumed that they were young men and I see nothing in the above photograph (which is not the one that caused the furore) to contradict that assumption. My point was and remains that it is more likely that this was thoughtlessness than malice; however you are entitled to disagree, having no more evidence than I and ignoring the interview that Nick N reported.

[Buchholz]

Your whole premise is predicated on the notion that rebellious teens are responsible for the stickers.

From where do you get this notion?

Certainly not from the available photos.

.

At no time did I mention "teens". I said that I assumed that they were young men and I see nothing in the above photograph (which is not the one that caused the furore) to contradict that assumption. My point was and remains that it is more likely that this was thoughtlessness than malice; however you are entitled to disagree, having no more evidence than I and ignoring the interview that Nick N reported.

It's the photo of the group that Nostitz went and talked to and is apparently responsible for the stickers. Don't recall they ever being referred to as young men. I presumed you meant teenagers when you described the rebellious behavior earlier (which I personally left at my teenage years and not later).

The stickers themselves indicate malice rather than thoughtlessness or "coolness" that Nostitz cites. If you buy into them being "cool" and not abhorrent in their message... up to you.

.

[pastitche]

Your whole premise is predicated on the notion that rebellious teens are responsible for the stickers.

From where do you get this notion?

Certainly not from the available photos.

.

At no time did I mention "teens". I said that I assumed that they were young men and I see nothing in the above photograph (which is not the one that caused the furore) to contradict that assumption. My point was and remains that it is more likely that this was thoughtlessness than malice; however you are entitled to disagree, having no more evidence than I and ignoring the interview that Nick N reported.

It's the photo of the group that Nostitz went and talked to and is apparently responsible for the stickers. Don't recall they ever being referred to as young men. I presumed you meant teenagers when you described the rebellious behavior earlier (which I personally left at my teenage years and not later).

The stickers themselves indicate malice rather than thoughtlessness or "coolness" that Nostitz cites. If you buy into them being "cool" and not abhorrent in their message... up to you.

.

I genuinely cannot tell from this photograph how old the individuals might be. Can you?

I explained before that I assumed that they were young men and as such their intention was not malign. You may have matured early but I can recall my student days when many of us indulged in behaviour that could be deemed reprehensible after our teenage years. We have different life experiences; that does not mean that either one of us is right or wrong

I never said that I believed the stickers were cool and I don't "buy into" that idea; my only point is that I believe that they were injudicious but may well have been mischievous rather than malicious.

You and I have both benefitted from a western education; it is unlikely that the people who displayed these stickers had such an advantage in life so would they be likely to analyse their behaviour and appreciate that it might have a negative effect on their political opponents in the present crisis? And would their political opponents take seriously the message from the stickers if they needed assistance?

I'd like to point out to both you and Yoshiwara that I have never taken sides in the political mess that is Thailand. As far as I can judge all parties/factions are equally distasteful

[animatic]

Your whole premise is predicated on the notion that rebellious teens are responsible for the stickers.

From where do you get this notion?

Certainly not from the available photos.

.

At no time did I mention "teens". I said that I assumed that they were young men and I see nothing in the above photograph (which is not the one that caused the furore) to contradict that assumption. My point was and remains that it is more likely that this was thoughtlessness than malice; however you are entitled to disagree, having no more evidence than I and ignoring the interview that Nick N reported.

It's the photo of the group that Nostitz went and talked to and is apparently responsible for the stickers. Don't recall they ever being referred to as young men. I presumed you meant teenagers when you described the rebellious behavior earlier (which I personally left at my teenage years and not later).

The stickers themselves indicate malice rather than thoughtlessness or "coolness" that Nostitz cites. If you buy into them being "cool" and not abhorrent in their message... up to you.

.

I genuinely cannot tell from this photograph how old the individuals might be. Can you?

I explained before that I assumed that they were young men and as such their intention was not malign. You may have matured early but I can recall my student days when many of us indulged in behaviour that could be deemed reprehensible after our teenage years. We have different life experiences; that does not mean that either one of us is right or wrong

I never said that I believed the stickers were cool and I don't "buy into" that idea; my only point is that I believe that they were injudicious but may well have been mischievous rather than malicious.

You and I have both benefitted from a western education; it is unlikely that the people who displayed these stickers had such an advantage in life so would they be likely to analyse their behaviour and appreciate that it might have a negative effect on their political opponents in the present crisis? And would their political opponents take seriously the message from the stickers if they needed assistance?

I'd like to point out to both you and Yoshiwara that I have never taken sides in the political mess that is Thailand. As far as I can judge all parties/factions are equally distasteful

When talking of this crew, the word rebellion isn't solely meaning the teenagers.

[yoshiwara]

I genuinely cannot tell from this photograph how old the individuals might be. Can you?

I explained before that I assumed that they were young men and as such their intention was not malign. You may have matured early but I can recall my student days when many of us indulged in behaviour that could be deemed reprehensible after our teenage years. We have different life experiences; that does not mean that either one of us is right or wrong

I never said that I believed the stickers were cool and I don't "buy into" that idea; my only point is that I believe that they were injudicious but may well have been mischievous rather than malicious.

You and I have both benefitted from a western education; it is unlikely that the people who displayed these stickers had such an advantage in life so would they be likely to analyse their behaviour and appreciate that it might have a negative effect on their political opponents in the present crisis? And would their political opponents take seriously the message from the stickers if they needed assistance?

I'd like to point out to both you and Yoshiwara that I have never taken sides in the political mess that is Thailand. As far as I can judge all parties/factions are equally distasteful

When talking of this crew, the word rebellion isn't solely meaning the teenagers.

...and dressing something unpleasant up as a young and thoughtless rebellion is yet another lame effort to manufacture a get out of jail card for the reds. Social Workers 'R Us.

Edited November 7, 2011 by yoshiwara

[pastitche]

I genuinely cannot tell from this photograph how old the individuals might be. Can you?

I explained before that I assumed that they were young men and as such their intention was not malign. You may have matured early but I can recall my student days when many of us indulged in behaviour that could be deemed reprehensible after our teenage years. We have different life experiences; that does not mean that either one of us is right or wrong

I never said that I believed the stickers were cool and I don't "buy into" that idea; my only point is that I believe that they were injudicious but may well have been mischievous rather than malicious.

You and I have both benefitted from a western education; it is unlikely that the people who displayed these stickers had such an advantage in life so would they be likely to analyse their behaviour and appreciate that it might have a negative effect on their political opponents in the present crisis? And would their political opponents take seriously the message from the stickers if they needed assistance?

I'd like to point out to both you and Yoshiwara that I have never taken sides in the political mess that is Thailand. As far as I can judge all parties/factions are equally distasteful

When talking of this crew, the word rebellion isn't solely meaning the teenagers.

...and dressing something unpleasant up as a young and thoughtless rebellion is yet another lame effort to manufacture a get out of jail card for the reds. Social Workers 'R Us.

I see that you have a distaste for sociologists and social workers; I am neither.

I get the impression that you are, however, a forensic psychologist since you consider yourself capable of assigning to me the role of attempting to "manufacture a get out of jail card for the reds". I was completely unaware that was my motivation. Thank you for your invaluable insight; I'm sure that it will change my life

To help you with your psychological profiling you might want to know that I long ago became disillusioned by politics and politicians in the country I left and I find politicians and politics in Thailand an affront to democracy. I am also and intend to remain firmly in the "A plague on both your houses" camp.

And I will continue to be a neutral observer of The Internecine War of The Farangs on TV

[hanuman1]

If we can agree that the stickers were actually removed, I wonder how my fellow speculators would interprate that?

Is it more likely the action of a group who feel the 'red shirts only' sticker portrays a self-defining, central tenet to their beliefs system? One to be jealously guarded, displayed without fear, and be proud of?

Or does it rather suggest that someone thought it was a good idea at one point, and then a bit further down the line thought it wasn't such a good idea? A show of bravado on one narrow level, an out and out mistake when viewed in another, broader context perchance?

I know what the Jatuporn-esque anti gov/red propagandists will say - doubtless we are witnessing the rise of a new Red Faction: the Lily-Livered (or should that be Yellow-Bellied?) Reds!!!