EM (Effective Micro-Organism) Mudballs To Help Disinfect Contaminated Flood Waters

[animatic]

Interesting to see that the EM balls are now being debated in the press and their use is being stopped according to the other paper. Aside from the low likelihood that they will make anything better even in perfect conditions, the great likelihood that they make things worse, surely means they shouldn't be used, or at least under very strict guidelines about where and how to apply them.

However, very interesting that on the TV channels this morning the manufacturers are running around defending it. If only every other solution got so much press. What they desperately need is to boost the dissolved oxygen, although, I haven't seen too many aerators that can effectively aerate 500sq km of water 1m deep.

Maybe give every flooded Thai a plastic tube and have them all 'blow air under that water' 1/2 hour a day....

[harryfrompattaya]

Interesting to see that the EM balls are now being debated in the press and their use is being stopped according to the other paper. Aside from the low likelihood that they will make anything better even in perfect conditions, the great likelihood that they make things worse, surely means they shouldn't be used, or at least under very strict guidelines about where and how to apply them.

However, very interesting that on the TV channels this morning the manufacturers are running around defending it. If only every other solution got so much press. What they desperately need is to boost the dissolved oxygen, although, I haven't seen too many aerators that can effectively aerate 500sq km of water 1m deep.

Maybe give every flooded Thai a plastic tube and have them all 'blow air under that water' 1/2 hour a day....

This probably a great idea as this will give them something to do and it cost to much.

[sparebox2]

EM ball does not work. In fact, it make the matter worst.

Like the GT-200, it is a fake technology to fool people.

[Thai at Heart]

Interesting to see that the EM balls are now being debated in the press and their use is being stopped according to the other paper. Aside from the low likelihood that they will make anything better even in perfect conditions, the great likelihood that they make things worse, surely means they shouldn't be used, or at least under very strict guidelines about where and how to apply them.

However, very interesting that on the TV channels this morning the manufacturers are running around defending it. If only every other solution got so much press. What they desperately need is to boost the dissolved oxygen, although, I haven't seen too many aerators that can effectively aerate 500sq km of water 1m deep.

Maybe give every flooded Thai a plastic tube and have them all 'blow air under that water' 1/2 hour a day....

Well, maybe Plodprasop can find something useful to do with his 1000 boats. Just put a diffuser on the end of the prop shafts and away they go. I daren't think what this water is going to do to the ecology of the gulf, but it isn't going to be good, once it gets out there. I think it read somewhere that the DO in the river itself was very low, and that is relatively fast moving.

Just imagine what it is at the bottom of the soi sitting in the sun a meter deep for a month. This is why, how much to apply and how to apply it is very very important, because the result of overdosing this water with nutrients (mollases) and poor quality bacteria in a solid or powdered form may be to make the water quality even worse.

The bacteria in the system already don't care where the food comes from, so if the population of the bacteria that you add (good bacteria) cannot overwhelm the bad bacteria (anaerobic, e-coli etc)they will simply become food for the bad guys and cause the already large "bad bacteria" population to increase even more. EM supposedly works by relying on having an existing population of good bacteria in the water. You can only grow what is there, or add a large population of "good" bacteria in the right form to break down the waste (food, fertilisers, human waste), and proliferate so that they effectively starve the bad bacteria of nutrients. To do that without enough DO is difficult but can be done.

Tossing a ball of yeast, molasses and some lactobacillus into the water isn't they way forward no matter how much any one wants it to be.

Edited November 7, 2011 by Thai at Heart

[cowslip]

oh PLEASE! - why not get a shaman to do a dance and the whole thing will go away.

However I should think the manufacturers of EM Balls are thinking Xmas has come early!

to me tit looks like they are exactly what it says on the box......a load of "em balls......

Edited November 8, 2011 by cowslip

[cowslip]

They are also written by academics who's primary purpose is to disprove a hypothesis. That's what scientists do, and it's not always a bad thing.

Only a bad scientist would ignore results that don't favor his hypothesis.

If they worked, there would be scientific literature to support it. I'm not a bio-chemist, but I haven't been able to find a single article stating EM balls can clean waste water. Anyone find any?

EM can be added to septic tanks to help digest the cr@p.

perhaps the authorities should consume a few then?

[animatic]

They are also written by academics who's primary purpose is to disprove a hypothesis. That's what scientists do, and it's not always a bad thing.

Only a bad scientist would ignore results that don't favor his hypothesis.

If they worked, there would be scientific literature to support it. I'm not a bio-chemist, but I haven't been able to find a single article stating EM balls can clean waste water. Anyone find any?

EM can be added to septic tanks to help digest the cr@p.

perhaps the authorities should consume a few then?

Wicked Witch of the West affect?

[Thai at Heart]

Got a call from an office (at the very top of government) about a product we have, asking us believe it or not, if we could re-brand it to make it sound Thai. This is what it is coming to people. Can't even have foreign products to clean the water.

Seems they just can't find a way to admit that EM is as someone said, a load of balls.

[DickFarang]

They will largely achieve nothing because there isn't enough bacterial population within them to have any significant impact on the waste etc.

If the water has been stagnant for a very long time, the existing bacteria will have removed most of the dissolved oxygen, so anaerobic bacteria activity takes over, hence the smell. If you add more vegetable material to the water with insufficient oxygen, you will simply remove more oxygen and promote more anaerobic activity in the water and make it even more putrid.

There are other far far more effective products and techniques being used to clean up the mess, it is just they don't get any press. I know, because I am supplying one of them.

The first comment that makes sense.

[harryfrompattaya]

They will largely achieve nothing because there isn't enough bacterial population within them to have any significant impact on the waste etc.

If the water has been stagnant for a very long time, the existing bacteria will have removed most of the dissolved oxygen, so anaerobic bacteria activity takes over, hence the smell. If you add more vegetable material to the water with insufficient oxygen, you will simply remove more oxygen and promote more anaerobic activity in the water and make it even more putrid.

There are other far far more effective products and techniques being used to clean up the mess, it is just they don't get any press. I know, because I am supplying one of them.

You are just a salesman that is making money selling something else

Us educated persons know that they work

[harryfrompattaya]

Got a call from an office (at the very top of government) about a product we have, asking us believe it or not, if we could re-brand it to make it sound Thai. This is what it is coming to people. Can't even have foreign products to clean the water.

Seems they just can't find a way to admit that EM is as someone said, a load of balls.

After you re brand do you give back hands?

Please tell us the name of the top government official, as it maybe my Wife's very important father.

Thank you as I seek the truth

Edited November 9, 2011 by harryfrompattaya

[cowslip]

They will largely achieve nothing because there isn't enough bacterial population within them to have any significant impact on the waste etc.

If the water has been stagnant for a very long time, the existing bacteria will have removed most of the dissolved oxygen, so anaerobic bacteria activity takes over, hence the smell. If you add more vegetable material to the water with insufficient oxygen, you will simply remove more oxygen and promote more anaerobic activity in the water and make it even more putrid.

There are other far far more effective products and techniques being used to clean up the mess, it is just they don't get any press. I know, because I am supplying one of them.

You are just a salesman that is making money selling something else

Us educated persons know that they work

I think that the way this poster has posed this shows that he/she really doesn't know how to formulate or put forward an argument or make a rational judgement.

Whereas this is a possibility it doesn't warrant an unequivocal assertion.

The other side of the coin is that it was a person who actually has knowledge and experience in this field and is capable of making a professional assessment.

furthermore the information this statement is based on is supplied by the person he is criticising.

[webfact]

EM balls effective: academics

The Nation

Photo : Sukul Kerdnaimongkol

EM balls can control pollution in flood water, experts at Srinakharinwirot University said yesterday.

"They are effective," Assoc Prof Sumalee Leungsakul said. She is the dean of the university's Faculty of Culture, Environment and Eco-tourism.

Sumalee said her university was now handing out the effective micro-organism balls to flood victims. The Tamaka sugar factory in Kanchanaburi has donated molasses for their production.

Many Bangkok residents have sought EM balls to tackle the filthy, smelly flood water around their homes, but their effectiveness has been questioned in recent days.

Dr Sanong Thongpan, who has had eight years of experience in treating polluted water for Srinakharin-wirot University, agrees that the EM balls are effective.

"It's just that the micro-organisms used for them must have the ability to dispose of starch, fat and protein in flood water. Their micro-organisms must be from the bacillus subtilis and nitro-factor groups," he said.

Sanong said users should break up the EM balls into small bits before throwing them into the flood water.

"For every 10 cubic metres of water, you should use just two EM balls," he said, "If you use them correctly, water quality should improve within one week".

-- The Nation 2011-11-09

[beano2274]

Excuse my dumbness, but how is this a Royal Project?

Also check out Wikipedia, seems they are used for a lot more than people think, but the creator is not so sure of its effectiveness.

Copied from Wikipedia:

The Effective Microorganisms concept may be considered controversial in some quarters and there may not be scientific evidence to support all of its proponents' claims. This is acknowledged by Higa in a 1994 paper co-authored by Higa and soil microbiologist James F Parr, a USDA Research, they conclude in that, "the main limitation...is the problem of reproducibility and lack of consistent results."

Main page - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effective_microorganism

Edited November 9, 2011 by beano2274

[BuffaloRescue]

Why not just pour thousands of gallons of chlorine or iodine into the street. Chlorine pollution is surely better than an outbreak of diptheria, cholera, typhoid, legionairres disease, not to mention ecoli and bacteria etc

Edited November 9, 2011 by BuffaloRescue

[cowslip]

It seems that so often the Thai solution to any problem is a load of balls.....and ghosts can be a real problem now that their spirit houses have been flooded....have they got the balls to deal with that?

[cowslip]

EM balls effective: academics

The Nation

Photo : Sukul Kerdnaimongkol

EM balls can control pollution in flood water, experts at Srinakharinwirot University said yesterday.

"They are effective," Assoc Prof Sumalee Leungsakul said. She is the dean of the university's Faculty of Culture, Environment and Eco-tourism.

Sumalee said her university was now handing out the effective micro-organism balls to flood victims. The Tamaka sugar factory in Kanchanaburi has donated molasses for their production.

Many Bangkok residents have sought EM balls to tackle the filthy, smelly flood water around their homes, but their effectiveness has been questioned in recent days.

Dr Sanong Thongpan, who has had eight years of experience in treating polluted water for Srinakharin-wirot University, agrees that the EM balls are effective.

"It's just that the micro-organisms used for them must have the ability to dispose of starch, fat and protein in flood water. Their micro-organisms must be from the bacillus subtilis and nitro-factor groups," he said.

Sanong said users should break up the EM balls into small bits before throwing them into the flood water.

"For every 10 cubic metres of water, you should use just two EM balls," he said, "If you use them correctly, water quality should improve within one week".

-- The Nation 2011-11-09

Thai academics who seem suddenly well informed on this and miraculously and without any encouragement or notion of profit spout on about how effective they are......which actually flies in the face of the wider scientific community who seems to think that at best the jury is still out on these things.

THis is on a par with magic rain making etc etc.....

[farangnahrak]

I looked up this associate professor and sent her an email. Claims are fine, but I'd like to see the scientific paper.

[cowslip]

I looked up this associate professor and sent her an email. Claims are fine, but I'd like to see the scientific paper.

" Claims are fine" - if you do a little looking round (not just one person's opinion) you'll find there are a lot of conflicting claims and that is the main problem - there have been a few tests but as yet it has not been possible to reliably REPEAT any positive claims - the results seem to vary wildly and are inconsistet.

[animatic]

They will largely achieve nothing because there isn't enough bacterial population within them to have any significant impact on the waste etc.

If the water has been stagnant for a very long time, the existing bacteria will have removed most of the dissolved oxygen, so anaerobic bacteria activity takes over, hence the smell. If you add more vegetable material to the water with insufficient oxygen, you will simply remove more oxygen and promote more anaerobic activity in the water and make it even more putrid.

There are other far far more effective products and techniques being used to clean up the mess, it is just they don't get any press. I know, because I am supplying one of them.

You are just a salesman that is making money selling something else

Us educated persons know that they work

I think that the way this poster has posed this shows that he/she really doesn't know how to formulate or put forward an argument or make a rational judgement.

Whereas this is a possibility it doesn't warrant an unequivocal assertion.

The other side of the coin is that it was a person who actually has knowledge and experience in this field and is capable of making a professional assessment.

furthermore the information this statement is based on is supplied by the person he is criticising.

Well I have spoken with you personally, and you seem to know what you are talking about, so I can't see why your product wouldn't be what you say.

I can EASILY see the nationalist rebranding trip thrown on it.

Pathetic at this state of the national affairs.

[farangnahrak]

The associate professor emailed me back. I had asked her for scientific papers backing up her claims. I apologize that it's in Thai:

ตามปกติ ธรรมชาติก็จะมีการฟอกตัวเองอยู่แล้ว นำ้เสียถ้าทิ้งไว้นานๆก็จะมีการตกตะกอน มีการย่อยสลายตามธรรมชาติ แต่จะใช้เวลานานมากๆ เพราะของเสียที่เข้าไปในนำ้มีมากกว่าที่เกิดขึ้นตามธรรมชาติ ดังนั้น จึงต้องเติมจุลินทรีย์ที่มีประสิทธิภาพในการย่อยสลายเพิ่มเข้าไปเพื่อทำงานในการย่อยสลายได้เร็วขึ้นกว่าการฟอกตนเองของระบบนิเวศตามธรรมชาติ. ตำราเกี่ยวกับระบบนิเวศของนำ้ มีค่ะ แต่ต้องหาก่อน

เราพูดตามหลักวิชาการ ตามผลการทดลองที่เคยทำ ตามประสบการณ์ที่สอนและวิจัยด้านจุลชีววิทยามาเกือบสี่สิบปี ใคไม่เชื่อก็ไม่ว่าอะไร เพราะไม่มีผลประโยชน์อันใด ไม่มีเชื้อที่จะขาย มีแต่ให้ฟรี ไม่สามารถบังคับให้ใครเชื่อได้

I'm too lazy to translate it word for word, but for those who can't read it basically says:

"EM technology is the natural way to clean up bacterial scum. I don't have any research papers to back up the claims, only 40 years of personal experience with environmental science. If people do not want to believe me, that is ok, I am not selling my reputation. There is no benefit in convincing people who do not want to believe in it."

(emphasis on it's my lazy translation, in that my summary doesn't quite capture what she said - but it's good enough)

So . . . why doesn't she have any papers backing up the claims after 40 years of experience? Should I email her back, explaining that the scientific community needs to see experimental data to believe in it? I'm debating if she even realizes this and is worth further probing . . .

[farangnahrak]

" Claims are fine" - if you do a little looking round (not just one person's opinion) you'll find there are a lot of conflicting claims and that is the main problem - there have been a few tests but as yet it has not been possible to reliably REPEAT any positive claims - the results seem to vary wildly and are inconsistet.

Agreed. I've seen claims that a single EM ball is enough to treat water ranging from '1 meter squared' to '5 cubic meters'. Some claim the ball needs to be perfectly packed and not fall apart so it has a timed release, and others claim the ball must be broken up into a fine powder before being thrown onto the water . . .

[cowslip]

The associate professor emailed me back. I had asked her for scientific papers backing up her claims. I apologize that it's in Thai:

ตามปกติ ธรรมชาติก็จะมีการฟอกตัวเองอยู่แล้ว นำ้เสียถ้าทิ้งไว้นานๆก็จะมีการตกตะกอน มีการย่อยสลายตามธรรมชาติ แต่จะใช้เวลานานมากๆ เพราะของเสียที่เข้าไปในนำ้มีมากกว่าที่เกิดขึ้นตามธรรมชาติ ดังนั้น จึงต้องเติมจุลินทรีย์ที่มีประสิทธิภาพในการย่อยสลายเพิ่มเข้าไปเพื่อทำงานในการย่อยสลายได้เร็วขึ้นกว่าการฟอกตนเองของระบบนิเวศตามธรรมชาติ. ตำราเกี่ยวกับระบบนิเวศของนำ้ มีค่ะ แต่ต้องหาก่อน

เราพูดตามหลักวิชาการ ตามผลการทดลองที่เคยทำ ตามประสบการณ์ที่สอนและวิจัยด้านจุลชีววิทยามาเกือบสี่สิบปี ใคไม่เชื่อก็ไม่ว่าอะไร เพราะไม่มีผลประโยชน์อันใด ไม่มีเชื้อที่จะขาย มีแต่ให้ฟรี ไม่สามารถบังคับให้ใครเชื่อได้

I'm too lazy to translate it word for word, but for those who can't read it basically says:

"EM technology is the natural way to clean up bacterial scum. I don't have any research papers to back up the claims, only 40 years of personal experience with environmental science. If people do not want to believe me, that is ok, I am not selling my reputation. There is no benefit in convincing people who do not want to believe in it."

(emphasis on it's my lazy translation, in that my summary doesn't quite capture what she said - but it's good enough)

So . . . why doesn't she have any papers backing up the claims after 40 years of experience? Should I email her back, explaining that the scientific community needs to see experimental data to believe in it? I'm debating if she even realizes this and is worth further probing . . .

Unfortunately that is without a shadow of a doubt THE WRONG ANSWER.......

If the product had any merit there would be papers backing it up....one persons "experience" is in these circumstances worthless - doubly so as they are putting themselves forward as a "scientist".....in a most unscientific way.

[sparebox2]

The associate professor emailed me back. I had asked her for scientific papers backing up her claims. I apologize that it's in Thai:

ตามปกติ ธรรมชาติก็จะมีการฟอกตัวเองอยู่แล้ว นำ้เสียถ้าทิ้งไว้นานๆก็จะมีการตกตะกอน มีการย่อยสลายตามธรรมชาติ แต่จะใช้เวลานานมากๆ เพราะของเสียที่เข้าไปในนำ้มีมากกว่าที่เกิดขึ้นตามธรรมชาติ ดังนั้น จึงต้องเติมจุลินทรีย์ที่มีประสิทธิภาพในการย่อยสลายเพิ่มเข้าไปเพื่อทำงานในการย่อยสลายได้เร็วขึ้นกว่าการฟอกตนเองของระบบนิเวศตามธรรมชาติ. ตำราเกี่ยวกับระบบนิเวศของนำ้ มีค่ะ แต่ต้องหาก่อน

เราพูดตามหลักวิชาการ ตามผลการทดลองที่เคยทำ ตามประสบการณ์ที่สอนและวิจัยด้านจุลชีววิทยามาเกือบสี่สิบปี ใคไม่เชื่อก็ไม่ว่าอะไร เพราะไม่มีผลประโยชน์อันใด ไม่มีเชื้อที่จะขาย มีแต่ให้ฟรี ไม่สามารถบังคับให้ใครเชื่อได้

I'm too lazy to translate it word for word, but for those who can't read it basically says:

"EM technology is the natural way to clean up bacterial scum. I don't have any research papers to back up the claims, only 40 years of personal experience with environmental science. If people do not want to believe me, that is ok, I am not selling my reputation. There is no benefit in convincing people who do not want to believe in it."

(emphasis on it's my lazy translation, in that my summary doesn't quite capture what she said - but it's good enough)

So . . . why doesn't she have any papers backing up the claims after 40 years of experience? Should I email her back, explaining that the scientific community needs to see experimental data to believe in it? I'm debating if she even realizes this and is worth further probing . . .

Unfortunately that is without a shadow of a doubt THE WRONG ANSWER.......

If the product had any merit there would be papers backing it up....one persons "experience" is in these circumstances worthless - doubly so as they are putting themselves forward as a "scientist".....in a most unscientific way.

Remember GT-200?

No backup paper is needed.

Yet Thai people pays millions for it. Yes millions.

[Payboy]

I looked up this associate professor and sent her an email. Claims are fine, but I'd like to see the scientific paper.

" Claims are fine" - if you do a little looking round (not just one person's opinion) you'll find there are a lot of conflicting claims and that is the main problem - there have been a few tests but as yet it has not been possible to reliably REPEAT any positive claims - the results seem to vary wildly and are inconsistet.

Here is the inventors website. Lot of information, but hardly any evidence supporting that EM really works on a large-scale scenario.

[farangnahrak]

Here is the inventors website. Lot of information, but hardly any evidence supporting that EM really works on a large-scale scenario.

Actually, the company website claims EM can clean up oceans (despite the entirely different water chemistry). Although it may take several seasons 'until results are seen'.

• Use one EM™Mudball for each square meter of surface area.
• Use EM™ Mudballs once each season until results are seen.
• Cleaning up oceans,

[cough cough bs cough]

[Payboy]

Actually, the company website claims EM can clean up oceans....

Didn't say how big those balls are.

You're right - [cough cough bs cough]

[farangnahrak]

I decided to research this so called Dr Teruo Higa. He has plenty of self-promotion papers where he talks about how great EM is:

http://scholar.google.co.th/scholar?start=20&q=%22teruo+higa%22+microorganism&hl=en&as_sdt=1,5

However, I failed to find a single paper documenting a single scientific experiment or single quantifiable result wrt cleaning water.

I found this interesting quote from him, too:

"Thus a health drink EMx, which contains a

high proportion of natural antioxidants, extracted from ingredients such as sea weed

fermented with EM is sold in many regions. The benefits of EMx are being tested with

HIV positive patients to improve their health conditions, in pilot studies conducted by

qualified doctors in many parts of the world."

reference: http://www.infrc.or.jp/english/KNF_Data_Base_Web/PDF%20KNF%20Conf%20Data/C7-KP-304.pdf

[sparebox2]

Please read the heading carefully.

EM (Effective Micro-Organism) Mudballs To Help Disinfect Contaminated Flood Waters royal project

Still want to criticise? Not afraid of 15 years in jail?

Rather you than me. Good luck, your IP have been logged.

[Payboy]

Please read the heading carefully.

EM (Effective Micro-Organism) Mudballs To Help Disinfect Contaminated Flood Waters royal project

Still want to criticise? Not afraid of 15 years in jail?

Rather you than me. Good luck, your IP have been logged.

Gee, hope no one's criticized the royal Thai government yet.