Hard Of Hearing – Any Suggestions, Re. Hearing Aids Etc?

[Mobi]

When I was about 50, I saw a hearing specialist in Harley Street as I was concerned about my hearing. The specialist told me that my hearing in both ears was impaired and was broadly equivalent to that of a man in his mid 60’s. In his opinion it wasn’t yet bad enough to justify any further treatment at that time.

I am now 65 and there is no doubt that my hearing has become a lot worse than it was 15 years ago. I have trouble hearing what people are saying to me, especially if here is any noise in the background and, in particular, when watching the TV I have to have the sound volume extremely loud in order to understand what people are saying. Even with very loud volume, I often cannot hear all the dialogue and have to replay, several times before I can catch what they are saying. If the dialogue is in strong accents or dialects, or mumbled American English, it is often impossible to follow.

I recently realised that I must be partly lip reading to understand the speech as sometimes when the speech is not quite in sync with the video, I really struggle to understand what they are saying.

The final straw was during a recent bout of fever, when I could not even hear the ‘beep beep’ signal on the thermometer, (to tell me the temperature was ready to read), when I was taking my temperature.

(And no, it is not wax – I have that removed regularly).

So there is no doubt that my hearing is getting quite bad. The question is, what can I do about it?

It’s really only a big problem when watching my videos and movies, so does anyone have any experience with simple hearing aids, and if I could get a reasonably priced one that would do the job for me? I am not rolling in money these days, but don’t mind spending a bit if it will make one of my main leisure activities more enjoyable.

Any information on a suitable hearing 'clinic' to go and the approximate cost would be appreciated. I am in Pattaya, so obviously would prefer not to go to Bangkok.

Thanks.

[Shurup]

You've just described my symptoms (lip reading, volume up, replying multiple times before getting it, termometer beeping, etc) but I am only half of your age.... I would then guess that you have similar hearing loss pattern: loss starting at middle frequency and up in the high pitch. You can hear the speach, but you are missing the clarity of the speach even when it's loud, because the human voice is in the range where you have loss.

Regardless of the reason for your loss, you need an aid that will amplify the frequencies where you have losses and the best job can do the digital hearing aid that can be programmed for your personal loss patern. My experience with "simple" aids isn't pretty. I first tried some cheap analog devices. The problem with them was, they amplified everything equally, including the frequencies where i had no losses. They let me hear a bit better, but they just annoyed the hell out of me and I wanted to rip my ears off when wearing them. Problem with them were, I had no customer service with them, it wasn't possible to adjust them. I ended up swallowing the cost of high end digital aids ($3000 a piece) and I have no regrets.

I can't advise you on any clinic in Pattaya or anywhere else in Thailand as I got mine in Canada just for the reason that I have a customer service and warranty. Just buying aids is not enough, I was coming back 100s of times to the clinic to make adjustments before they made them just about right. I can give you some advice though that I hope will be useful.

1. Don't buy the CIC (completely in canal) style. They may look small and unnociceble, but they would almost block your natural hearing therefore they would not be just aids, they would almost be replacements for your ears. I tried them and didn't like them one bit. They also don't stay inside all that well (they need to be custom made for your ear chanals) and they are just not comfortable to wear for a long time, my ears were getting sore. Get BTE (behind the ear) style. They don't block your natural hearing, you won't feel them, you may not even see them (depend on your heairstyle). When I say you won't feel them, I mean it, you will forget you wear them. I once went swimming wearing my aids (noticed only when the sound volume went down (oops. ) and took a shower a number of times wearing them. Got one replaced on a warranty as a result.

2. Whatever you decide to go with, make sure there is an option to make the adjustments. They won't work great right out of the box. You will have to come back to the clinic to do that so it's better to find one somewhere near your residence place.

[Mobi]

Thanks Shurup, for your obviously informed and detailed response - just what I was hoping for - someone with some practical experience of this problem.

It sounds to me that I will have to wait for the floods to abate and then find a decent hearing specialist in Bangkok, as I really doubt I will find anything here in Pattaya.

Just from your observations, I assume that when they do the hearing tests, they can identify which sound fequencies are impaired and can 'programme' the hearing aid accordingly. Is this how it is done?

Can you give me the names of any well known makes, or any that you can recommend so that i can look out for them and see if they are available here, and at what price.

Thanks

Mobi

[Shurup]

Yes that is how it's done. When they test you, they will make an audiograph which shows the severity of your loss at different frequencies. Based of the audiograph, they can choose aids that will suite your loss patern. Some really small devices may not work if the loss is really bad as they may not amplify loud anough. Like I said, there will be a few devices to choose from based on your particular pattern and from there you can pick the one that suites you price wise and feature wise. Some high end models have even Blue Tooth built in, you could connect them to your phone and other BT devices.

I have Oticon brand, my aids are mid level models, have some nice features. I have tried Siemens (CIC) and I think I liked them better (better quality sound and noise control) but I completely disliked the style. They were also cheaper than Oticon and had more features including Blue Tooth and up to 5 different programs for different life situations like noisy environment, outdoor, etc... Programs were switching with a push of a single button. AFAIK, Siemens has different styles of aids including the BTE style. I should have tried more aids and should have tried BTE from Siemens, but I was in love with Oticon by then so I picked them (that particular clinic was pushing that brand but was able to get any brand available on a market).

Check this site for Siemens products: http://hearing.sieme...ts/products.jsp

I once was looking for batteries in BKK and I found one hearing aid clinic where I bought batteries. While waiting, I looked at their products and they only had Bernafone products. Bertafone was the brand of analog devices that I tried, they left a sour taste in my mouth but I think Bernafone may also have some digital aids now. Try to google them and see is anything good comes up. I honestly don't know anything about their products.

And one last thing is, if you have loss on both ears, get 2 devices, one just doesn't do a good job.

Good luck with your search, I think to find a good clinic with good customer service is just as important in this case as choosing good aids.

Edited November 7, 2011 by Shurup

[flemmie]

Thanks for all this info, I have similar issues (I am 61).

I recently downloaded an ap on iPhone called uHear, it does some interesting hearing tests and gives reasonably accurate results. It seems an app called ACEHearing is in the make that you would use with iPhone and Bluetooth, I wonder what that will be like.

Thanks again!

[Shurup]

Thanks for all this info, I have similar issues (I am 61).

I recently downloaded an ap on iPhone called uHear, it does some interesting hearing tests and gives reasonably accurate results. It seems an app called ACEHearing is in the make that you would use with iPhone and Bluetooth, I wonder what that will be like.

Thanks again!

Well, I am personally not a fan of iProducts so can't comment on that app. If it's any good then to get reasonably accurate results, you would have to be in a sound-proof room and have to good quality headphones and not those cheap-o earbugs that iProducts come with.

The way the test hearing tests are done is you go inside the small sound-proof room, but on the headphones, take a feedback button in your hand. The technician then start with one ear and test your hearing at different frequencies, starting with very quiet and rising the volume up until you hear and push a button. Once one of the ears in completed, the same procedure is done with the other ear. They also may test to see what kind of hearing loss you have (like inner/outer ear, etc.) there is quite a few tests actually like resonance fork (I think that how it's called), air conductivity vs bone conductivity, etc.

I would just for once go and get it done professionaly to see what type of hearing loss you have and have the proper audiograph. Also you may get some useful info as why you are losing it, will it get worse or not, any way to prevent it, any way to reverse it (not all losses are permanent), you may also discover that you are a candidate for the cochlear implant - some patients may benefit more from it than from the hearing aids (however I personally think the implant is the last resort as the process of implantation removes the last bits of your hearing and if you don't like the way it is, there is no turning back).

I think that iphone app may be useful to keep track of your hearing loss ans see if there any changes, but I recomment to have the initial test(s) done professionaly.

P.S. Any Thai hospital would have the equipment to do the test, however I was getting different results over the years from different hospitals here and even from the same hospital but from different nurces using the equipment. My tests done in canada don't change years after years so I'm 100% certain the changes are due to the people here who do the tests. Hospitals probably won't sell the aids so better go to a specialty clinic or hearing center.

[Shurup]

Thanks for all this info, I have similar issues (I am 61).

I recently downloaded an ap on iPhone called uHear, it does some interesting hearing tests and gives reasonably accurate results. It seems an app called ACEHearing is in the make that you would use with iPhone and Bluetooth, I wonder what that will be like.

Thanks again!

Well, I am personally not a fan of iProducts so can't comment on that app. If it's any good then to get reasonably accurate results, you would have to be in a sound-proof room and have to good quality headphones and not those cheap-o earbugs that iProducts come with.

The way the test hearing tests are done is you go inside the small sound-proof room, but on the headphones, take a feedback button in your hand. The technician then start with one ear and test your hearing at different frequencies, starting with very quiet and rising the volume up until you hear and push a button. Once one of the ears in completed, the same procedure is done with the other ear. They also may test to see what kind of hearing loss you have (like inner/outer ear, etc.) there is quite a few tests actually like resonance fork (I think that how it's called), air conductivity vs bone conductivity, etc.

I would just for once go and get it done professionaly to see what type of hearing loss you have and have the proper audiograph. Also you may get some useful info as why you are losing it, will it get worse or not, any way to prevent it, any way to reverse it (not all losses are permanent), you may also discover that you are a candidate for the cochlear implant - some patients may benefit more from it than from the hearing aids (however I personally think the implant is the last resort as the process of implantation removes the last bits of your hearing and if you don't like the way it is, there is no turning back).

I think that iphone app may be useful to keep track of your hearing loss ans see if there any changes, but I recomment to have the initial test(s) done professionaly.

P.S. Any Thai hospital would have the equipment to do the test, however I was getting different results over the years from different hospitals here and even from the same hospital but from different nurces using the equipment. My tests done in canada don't change years after years so I'm 100% certain the changes are due to the people here who do the tests. Hospitals probably won't sell the aids so better go to a specialty clinic or hearing center.

[Mike45]

I don't have your problem. You did say that it bothered you the most when watching TV. It reminded me of a friend that had a similar problem. He told me that he noticed that when he bought a 5.1 surround sound system for his home that he was able to turn down the channels that had back ground noise and turn up the center speaker that had only voices. He said he could hear everything much better during the movie.

Maybe a place near you has one of those systems setup and you can experiment with it.

Mike

[sprq]

I have mild to severe hearing loss in both ears, first identified two years ago, and have been investigating hearing aid remedies for a year now.

Having done some research amongst leading hospitals in Bangkok and their hearing clinics in order to find out who was most competent to do diagnosis, I can authoritatively say that Bangkok Hospital (near RCA) has the most focused and comprehensive facilities, with the veteran specialist, Dr Apinan, overseeing matters. Besides the usual audiology services, they also have hearing aid company reps coming each weekday afternoon to demonstrate their goods (it's hit and miss, depending on the competence of the demonstrator, but a useful introduction to hearing aids before you go to the actual company premises).

Edited January 23, 2013 by spr&q

[CaptHaddock]

I have mild to severe hearing loss in both ears, first identified two years ago, and have been investigating hearing aid remedies for a year now.

Having done some research amongst leading hospitals in Bangkok and their hearing clinics in order to find out who was most competent to do diagnosis, I can authoritatively say that Bangkok Hospital (near RCA) has the most focused and comprehensive facilities, with the veteran specialist, Dr Apinan, overseeing matters. Besides the usual audiology services, they also have hearing aid company reps coming each weekday afternoon to demonstrate their goods (it's hit and miss, depending on the competence of the demonstrator, but a useful introduction to hearing aids before you go to the actual company premises).

You leave out the most important information: do they have a licensed audiologist? Also, on what basis, other than your unsubstantiated opinion, do you "authoritatively say" that Bangkok Hospital is the best?

Edited January 23, 2013 by CaptHaddock

[CaptHaddock]

In the US the prices of hearing aids have increased in recent years. Since HA devices use digital signal processors, which are also used in mobile phones and many other applications, how is it that the prices of HAs have gone up while the prices of all other electronic devices have gone down? What's different about HAs? The answer is that HAs are among the very few electronic devices sold by a doctor or someone trying to act like one. The sellers get commissions, usually a much higher percentage of their income than that derived from providing services like testing. So, sellers with a commission motive and the advantage of expertise are selling to unknowing buyers. The result is that many purchasers are oversold.

Consumer Reports in the US did a study and found that 40% of hearing aids were not correctly fitted, but that 75% of the buyers liked them anyway. There have also been studies that show, that for 95% of buyers, HAs with more than four channels over no improvement over cheaper, four channel versions.

The steps to getting a hearing aid are:

1. Go to an Ear, nose and throat doctor to check to see if you have any health problem, eg. perforated eardrum, infection, etc.

2. If you have no medical problem, go to a licensed audiologist to get an audiogram that will measure your hearing loss in each frequency range. The results will determine both what type of HA you need, e.g. in the ear, behind the ear, etc. and what adjustment it will need to compensate for the specifics of your hearing loss.

3. Select hearing aids. Don't be oversold. In the US purchasers have a right to return the HAs with 30 or more days for a refund. I expect buyers in Thailand won't have any such a right. Trying the HAs out briefly in the seller's office doesn't help much particularly if they are the first HAs you have ever owned. It took me a month to get used to mine. The longer you have lived with hearing loss the longer it will take you to get used to them.

By the way most users will need two HAs, not one.

The good news is that hearing aids make a huge difference. You will not recover the hearing ability you had as a 20 year old, but the difference is night and day. Before I got mine I was always asking people to repeat what they said. Since getting them the rate of such correction dialogues has dropped to what is normal for a younger person, at least in most situations.

I haven't bought HAs in Bangkok, but I understand that Chulalongkorn Hospital has a section that provides the necessary services. Maybe they sell them. I don't know. I would certainly investigate Chulalongkorn first since they have an excellent reputation in other specialties and they are likely to be cheaper than alternatives.

It is also possible to buy HAs online from the US. You need to have an audiogram first and some online companies will refuse to sell overseas. There are pluses and minuses, but it has worked well for me.

Edited January 23, 2013 by CaptHaddock

[JohnC]

http://www.dmedhearing.com/contact.php?typeof=contact〈=en

[cheeryble]

May I recommend for watching TV a pair of cordless earphones?

The Phillips ones I use are great and it doesn't annoy the neighbors as the sound only goes through the phones when they (the transmitter) is plugged in. Only less than 1000 baht.

Edited January 26, 2013 by cheeryble

[Shurup]

In the US the prices of hearing aids have increased in recent years. Since HA devices use digital signal processors, which are also used in mobile phones and many other applications, how is it that the prices of HAs have gone up while the prices of all other electronic devices have gone down? What's different about HAs? The answer is that HAs are among the very few electronic devices sold by a doctor or someone trying to act like one. The sellers get commissions, usually a much higher percentage of their income than that derived from providing services like testing. So, sellers with a commission motive and the advantage of expertise are selling to unknowing buyers. The result is that many purchasers are oversold.

Consumer Reports in the US did a study and found that 40% of hearing aids were not correctly fitted, but that 75% of the buyers liked them anyway. There have also been studies that show, that for 95% of buyers, HAs with more than four channels over no improvement over cheaper, four channel versions.

The steps to getting a hearing aid are:

1. Go to an Ear, nose and throat doctor to check to see if you have any health problem, eg. perforated eardrum, infection, etc.

2. If you have no medical problem, go to a licensed audiologist to get an audiogram that will measure your hearing loss in each frequency range. The results will determine both what type of HA you need, e.g. in the ear, behind the ear, etc. and what adjustment it will need to compensate for the specifics of your hearing loss.

3. Select hearing aids. Don't be oversold. In the US purchasers have a right to return the HAs with 30 or more days for a refund. I expect buyers in Thailand won't have any such a right. Trying the HAs out briefly in the seller's office doesn't help much particularly if they are the first HAs you have ever owned. It took me a month to get used to mine. The longer you have lived with hearing loss the longer it will take you to get used to them.

By the way most users will need two HAs, not one.

The good news is that hearing aids make a huge difference. You will not recover the hearing ability you had as a 20 year old, but the difference is night and day. Before I got mine I was always asking people to repeat what they said. Since getting them the rate of such correction dialogues has dropped to what is normal for a younger person, at least in most situations.

I haven't bought HAs in Bangkok, but I understand that Chulalongkorn Hospital has a section that provides the necessary services. Maybe they sell them. I don't know. I would certainly investigate Chulalongkorn first since they have an excellent reputation in other specialties and they are likely to be cheaper than alternatives.

It is also possible to buy HAs online from the US. You need to have an audiogram first and some online companies will refuse to sell overseas. There are pluses and minuses, but it has worked well for me.

Very good post, would like to correct/add a few things.

The mark up on hearing aids at the audiologists or hearing aid dispensers is at around 100%. HA are "medical device" and such, manufacturers aren't allowed to sell to the end user so we have no choice but to buy them from the middle man with that enormous mark up in exchange for the one year of "free" services, programming and support. In the recent years however the prices were going down, not up.

There will be no real improvement in the sound quality with more than a handful of channels (4 in your example), but improvements in noise management are proportional to the number of channels, I've got 48 channels aids. If you ever owned the older or lower end aids, you would know that they are useless in noisy environments. In fact in noise I could hear better without my older aids than with them, but in relatively quiet environment they were great.

The audiogram, results of a hearing test will NOT determine the style of hearing aids. Behind the ear, in the ear, in the ear canal - the style of aids is totally your decision, they all do the same job and have the same features with few little exceptions. If someone wants their aids not visible they can go with a CIC (completely in canal) for the expense of some features (bluetooth) and a battery life which would have to be smaller. Usually it's first time users who're ashamed of showing their disability. The best by far is the BTE-RIC (behind the ear receiver in canal) style which could be even more invisible (if you got hair, that it :-D ) which offer best battery life and performance. Also for those with severe hearing loss BTE is the only option as other styles don't have enough punch for severe losses. I would recommend the BTE RIC aids, it didn't take me long to stop caring about what people might think of my disability, so many more wear eye glasses and somehow its acceptable but not hearing aids in some peoples' opinions.

That is true that 2 aids better than one even if the loss in other ear is very mild or no loss at all, and that's because modern aids communicate with each other enabling features like noise management, speech in noise, etc.

My first 2 sets of aids were purchased at the dispencers, the last set I got on internet. There are some inconviniences of doing that but never again will I pay to any despencer.

For more info I suggest you join this community: hearingaidforums

Edited February 27, 2013 by lopburi3
remove link per forum rules

[CaptHaddock]

In the US the prices of hearing aids have increased in recent years. Since HA devices use digital signal processors, which are also used in mobile phones and many other applications, how is it that the prices of HAs have gone up while the prices of all other electronic devices have gone down? What's different about HAs? The answer is that HAs are among the very few electronic devices sold by a doctor or someone trying to act like one. The sellers get commissions, usually a much higher percentage of their income than that derived from providing services like testing. So, sellers with a commission motive and the advantage of expertise are selling to unknowing buyers. The result is that many purchasers are oversold.

Consumer Reports in the US did a study and found that 40% of hearing aids were not correctly fitted, but that 75% of the buyers liked them anyway. There have also been studies that show, that for 95% of buyers, HAs with more than four channels over no improvement over cheaper, four channel versions.

The steps to getting a hearing aid are:

1. Go to an Ear, nose and throat doctor to check to see if you have any health problem, eg. perforated eardrum, infection, etc.

2. If you have no medical problem, go to a licensed audiologist to get an audiogram that will measure your hearing loss in each frequency range. The results will determine both what type of HA you need, e.g. in the ear, behind the ear, etc. and what adjustment it will need to compensate for the specifics of your hearing loss.

3. Select hearing aids. Don't be oversold. In the US purchasers have a right to return the HAs with 30 or more days for a refund. I expect buyers in Thailand won't have any such a right. Trying the HAs out briefly in the seller's office doesn't help much particularly if they are the first HAs you have ever owned. It took me a month to get used to mine. The longer you have lived with hearing loss the longer it will take you to get used to them.

By the way most users will need two HAs, not one.

The good news is that hearing aids make a huge difference. You will not recover the hearing ability you had as a 20 year old, but the difference is night and day. Before I got mine I was always asking people to repeat what they said. Since getting them the rate of such correction dialogues has dropped to what is normal for a younger person, at least in most situations.

I haven't bought HAs in Bangkok, but I understand that Chulalongkorn Hospital has a section that provides the necessary services. Maybe they sell them. I don't know. I would certainly investigate Chulalongkorn first since they have an excellent reputation in other specialties and they are likely to be cheaper than alternatives.

It is also possible to buy HAs online from the US. You need to have an audiogram first and some online companies will refuse to sell overseas. There are pluses and minuses, but it has worked well for me.

Very good post, would like to correct/add a few things.

The mark up on hearing aids at the audiologists or hearing aid dispensers is at around 100%. HA are "medical device" and such, manufacturers aren't allowed to sell to the end user so we have no choice but to buy them from the middle man with that enormous mark up in exchange for the one year of "free" services, programming and support. In the recent years however the prices were going down, not up.

There will be no real improvement in the sound quality with more than a handful of channels (4 in your example), but improvements in noise management are proportional to the number of channels, I've got 48 channels aids. If you ever owned the older or lower end aids, you would know that they are useless in noisy environments. In fact in noise I could hear better without my older aids than with them, but in relatively quiet environment they were great.

The audiogram, results of a hearing test will NOT determine the style of hearing aids. Behind the ear, in the ear, in the ear canal - the style of aids is totally your decision, they all do the same job and have the same features with few little exceptions. If someone wants their aids not visible they can go with a CIC (completely in canal) for the expense of some features (bluetooth) and a battery life which would have to be smaller. Usually it's first time users who're ashamed of showing their disability. The best by far is the BTE-RIC (behind the ear receiver in canal) style which could be even more invisible (if you got hair, that it :-D ) which offer best battery life and performance. Also for those with severe hearing loss BTE is the only option as other styles don't have enough punch for severe losses. I would recommend the BTE RIC aids, it didn't take me long to stop caring about what people might think of my disability, so many more wear eye glasses and somehow its acceptable but not hearing aids in some peoples' opinions.

That is true that 2 aids better than one even if the loss in other ear is very mild or no loss at all, and that's because modern aids communicate with each other enabling features like noise management, speech in noise, etc.

My first 2 sets of aids were purchased at the dispencers, the last set I got on internet. There are some inconviniences of doing that but never again will I pay to any despencer.

For more info I suggest you join this community: hearingaidforums

I don't know where manufacturers are prohibited from selling directly to the public. Not in the US, where I bought my aids over the internet directly from a manufacturer.

It's my understanding that people with hearing loss in the lower frequency range have to have an in the ear canal type of HA. Those of us who have loss in the upper frequency range can use behind the ear aids that allow us to hear lower frequencies directly since the HA is not boosting those ranges.

[Shurup]

You can't buy directly from manufacturer, not in any civilized country and especially in US! You could have bought from someone claiming they are selling direct from manufacturer but it's not the same thing.

It doesn't matter what someone's hearing loss is, its totally up to a user to choose a style. All of the CIC or ITE aids are vented allowing the sound to pass through and even some folks with BTE choosing the earmolds for comfort or whatever other reason.

Some of the folks with severe loss with audiogram being a flat line at -100 dbl all the way through the low range to the high pitch are wearing BTE with earmolds. Again, the HA style is up to a user. Please go to the forum I mentioned earlier and read...

[CaptHaddock]

You can't buy directly from manufacturer, not in any civilized country and especially in US! You could have bought from someone claiming they are selling direct from manufacturer but it's not the same thing.

It doesn't matter what someone's hearing loss is, its totally up to a user to choose a style. All of the CIC or ITE aids are vented allowing the sound to pass through and even some folks with BTE choosing the earmolds for comfort or whatever other reason.

Some of the folks with severe loss with audiogram being a flat line at -100 dbl all the way through the low range to the high pitch are wearing BTE with earmolds. Again, the HA style is up to a user. Please go to the forum I mentioned earlier and read...

You can't buy directly from manufacturer, not in any civilized country and especially in US! You could have bought from someone claiming they are selling direct from manufacturer but it's not the same thing.

It doesn't matter what someone's hearing loss is, its totally up to a user to choose a style. All of the CIC or ITE aids are vented allowing the sound to pass through and even some folks with BTE choosing the earmolds for comfort or whatever other reason.

Some of the folks with severe loss with audiogram being a flat line at -100 dbl all the way through the low range to the high pitch are wearing BTE with earmolds. Again, the HA style is up to a user. Please go to the forum I mentioned earlier and read...

I bought my HA here:

http://www.americahears.com/

They advertise this: Buy Digital Hearing Aids

Direct From the Manufacturer

and Save Thousands

[Shurup]

OK, I heard about americahears but this is the only one manufacturer that does that and unfortunately their technology is ways behind the leading HA manufacturers like Siemens, Phonak, Oticon, Starkey, etc. None of the leading companies sells their aids to the public.

[CaptHaddock]

OK, I heard about americahears but this is the only one manufacturer that does that and unfortunately their technology is ways behind the leading HA manufacturers like Siemens, Phonak, Oticon, Starkey, etc. None of the leading companies sells their aids to the public.

HA from America Hears are certainly cheaper that those from the major manufacturers. But it is far from clear that they are inferior. I mentioned that research has shown that for 95% of those with hearing loss an HA with more than 4 channels does not provide any additional benefit. The major manufacturers sell through commissioned salespeople called audiologists. I was puzzled by the fact that prices for HA from my audiologist in NYC went up over a 5-year period despite the fact that they use signal processors which are widely used in other applications whose cost, like other electronics, is always going down, not up. But then it seems obvious that the difference between HA and, say, mobile phones, is that the HA are sold to an uninformed public by a health care provider who gets a commission and whose advice the uninformed patient is very likely to accept.

Consumer Reports published a report online that found that 66% of HA wear not correctly fitted by the audiologist. So much for the professional contribution. But 75% of HA wearers still liked them anyway. This tells me that the subjective reports of those who have overpaid for HA are not very valuable in evaluating the products, much like people who buy wine. Also, the subjective reports that you read on hearing aid forums always focus on how much the wearer liked or didn't like the sound quality. But HA are optimized for speech recognition only, not music or other functions. The subjective reports that I have found online never evaluate the brands or models based on how well the hearer can distinguish words, just how much he likes the sound quality. Pretty useless.

So, my guess is that the high priced brands are overpriced and offer little or no improvement over basic models such as those from America Hears or Costco.

[Shurup]

I'm not sure which reports you read and all those consumer reports don't always reflect what users really think of this or that product. In case of the HA if someone says they like the sound, they more than likely mean the words discrimination.

Regarding your saying that 4 channels is enough, that might just be the case if you're using your aids in quiet room with no background noise at all. Tell us how well you can hear in the busy restaurant or at some friends' party with loud music playing? I bet not very well. Do you know how the noise management works? With only 4 channels if the HA detects a noise at let's say 2100 Hz from a fan, a/c or whatever, HA will turn down the gain on that channel or even shut that channel off depending on the noise level, which will leave you pretty much without amplification in the human speech range. Add more noise at different range of frequencies and your HA are useless. Turn the noise management off and you will hear all those noises louder and clearer and any human speech will be drowned in them.

More channels will not necessarily make the speech clearer but is better to filter out those unwanted noises and make us hear better.

I take it you're on your first set of HA, I've been wearing them for 8 years, I'm on my 3rd set so believe me I know the difference. They're all great when you're at home watching TV or in a company of a few friends but anywhere else and you need something with a little more tech packed into them.

What's your audiogram is like, what's the losses at different frequencies?

[CaptHaddock]

I'm not sure which reports you read and all those consumer reports don't always reflect what users really think of this or that product. In case of the HA if someone says they like the sound, they more than likely mean the words discrimination.

Regarding your saying that 4 channels is enough, that might just be the case if you're using your aids in quiet room with no background noise at all. Tell us how well you can hear in the busy restaurant or at some friends' party with loud music playing? I bet not very well. Do you know how the noise management works? With only 4 channels if the HA detects a noise at let's say 2100 Hz from a fan, a/c or whatever, HA will turn down the gain on that channel or even shut that channel off depending on the noise level, which will leave you pretty much without amplification in the human speech range. Add more noise at different range of frequencies and your HA are useless. Turn the noise management off and you will hear all those noises louder and clearer and any human speech will be drowned in them.

More channels will not necessarily make the speech clearer but is better to filter out those unwanted noises and make us hear better.

I take it you're on your first set of HA, I've been wearing them for 8 years, I'm on my 3rd set so believe me I know the difference. They're all great when you're at home watching TV or in a company of a few friends but anywhere else and you need something with a little more tech packed into them.

What's your audiogram is like, what's the losses at different frequencies?

Sounds metaphysical to me. If people don't mention an improvement in speech discrimination when comparing one set of HA with another, I don't see any reason to suppose they do experience such an improvement.

You don't seem to me to understand the nature of the restaurant problem. The HA tries to filter out the background noise that is outside of the range of human speech. The problem of restaurant background noise is that it consists of human speech in the same frequency range as the conversation of your dinner companion. So, I wouldn't expect any of them to be very good at that.

The sufficiency of four channels is not my opinion, but the result of various research studies. Here is a quote from a summary at audiologyonline.com about one such study:

With these goals in mind, Rickert and colleagues at Starkey Laboratories designed a study to answer the question, "how many independent signal processing channels are required to maximize speech audibility and to match a non-linear fitting formula for a variety of audiograms?" They began with 1156 audiograms and from those they identified 15 representative audiometric configurations. The fifteen audiograms were computationally fit to maximize speech audibility [as quantified by the Articulation Index (AI), ANSI S3:5] and to match targets from the Cambridge non-linear fitting formula using a range of channels varying from 1 to 18. The results, shown in the figure below, demonstrate that moving from 1 to 2 channels provides a statistically significant improvement in Articulation Index (AI), as does moving from 2 to 3 channels and from 3 to 4 channels. Although there is an improvement as the number of channels is increased to 5 or 6, the improvement is not statistically significant. After 6 channels there is no further improvement in AI at all.

http://www.audiologyonline.com/ask-the-experts/what-optimum-number-hearing-aid-466

I am reminded of a study that showed that wine drinkers report more enjoyment from a bottle of wine the more expensive it is, even though they can't tell the difference in a blind taste test. My expectation of HA users would be similar.

[Shurup]

Sounds metaphysical to me. If people don't mention an improvement in speech discrimination when comparing one set of HA with another, I don't see any reason to suppose they do experience such an improvement.

You don't seem to me to understand the nature of the restaurant problem. The HA tries to filter out the background noise that is outside of the range of human speech. The problem of restaurant background noise is that it consists of human speech in the same frequency range as the conversation of your dinner companion. So, I wouldn't expect any of them to be very good at that.

The sufficiency of four channels is not my opinion, but the result of various research studies. Here is a quote from a summary at audiologyonline.com about one such study:

With these goals in mind, Rickert and colleagues at Starkey Laboratories designed a study to answer the question, "how many independent signal processing channels are required to maximize speech audibility and to match a non-linear fitting formula for a variety of audiograms?" They began with 1156 audiograms and from those they identified 15 representative audiometric configurations. The fifteen audiograms were computationally fit to maximize speech audibility [as quantified by the Articulation Index (AI), ANSI S3:5] and to match targets from the Cambridge non-linear fitting formula using a range of channels varying from 1 to 18. The results, shown in the figure below, demonstrate that moving from 1 to 2 channels provides a statistically significant improvement in Articulation Index (AI), as does moving from 2 to 3 channels and from 3 to 4 channels. Although there is an improvement as the number of channels is increased to 5 or 6, the improvement is not statistically significant. After 6 channels there is no further improvement in AI at all.

http://www.audiologyonline.com/ask-the-experts/what-optimum-number-hearing-aid-466

I am reminded of a study that showed that wine drinkers report more enjoyment from a bottle of wine the more expensive it is, even though they can't tell the difference in a blind taste test. My expectation of HA users would be similar.

You can keep throwing in more quotes from varying researches, but I'm telling you from my personal experience with more than one set of hearing aids and from other people's experiences from the hearingaidforums.com that I mentioned earlier. There is a difference, an improvement with higher number of channels. And yes today's advanced hearing aids can greatly improve speech understanding in restaurants and other noisy settings. I understand just fine what restaurant noise is but you refuse to enlighten yourself and accept the fact that there is tech in modern HA (not in any americahear aids, sorry) that can eliminate any unwanted noise including other people's voices you don't want to hear.

Go download a brochure on new Micon line of aids from Siemens and a brochure on Phonak HA, read them, go to the abovementioned forum and read testimonials from people who actually use these newer advanced HA. I'm sorry you let yourself stuck with the inferior product and you believe leading manuf HA are at the same performance level as your aids but x-times more expensive, you get what you paid for.

Edited February 27, 2013 by Shurup

[CaptHaddock]

Sounds metaphysical to me. If people don't mention an improvement in speech discrimination when comparing one set of HA with another, I don't see any reason to suppose they do experience such an improvement.

You don't seem to me to understand the nature of the restaurant problem. The HA tries to filter out the background noise that is outside of the range of human speech. The problem of restaurant background noise is that it consists of human speech in the same frequency range as the conversation of your dinner companion. So, I wouldn't expect any of them to be very good at that.

The sufficiency of four channels is not my opinion, but the result of various research studies. Here is a quote from a summary at audiologyonline.com about one such study:

With these goals in mind, Rickert and colleagues at Starkey Laboratories designed a study to answer the question, "how many independent signal processing channels are required to maximize speech audibility and to match a non-linear fitting formula for a variety of audiograms?" They began with 1156 audiograms and from those they identified 15 representative audiometric configurations. The fifteen audiograms were computationally fit to maximize speech audibility [as quantified by the Articulation Index (AI), ANSI S3:5] and to match targets from the Cambridge non-linear fitting formula using a range of channels varying from 1 to 18. The results, shown in the figure below, demonstrate that moving from 1 to 2 channels provides a statistically significant improvement in Articulation Index (AI), as does moving from 2 to 3 channels and from 3 to 4 channels. Although there is an improvement as the number of channels is increased to 5 or 6, the improvement is not statistically significant. After 6 channels there is no further improvement in AI at all.

http://www.audiologyonline.com/ask-the-experts/what-optimum-number-hearing-aid-466

I am reminded of a study that showed that wine drinkers report more enjoyment from a bottle of wine the more expensive it is, even though they can't tell the difference in a blind taste test. My expectation of HA users would be similar.

You can keep throwing in more quotes from varying researches, but I'm telling you from my personal experience with more than one set of hearing aids and from other people's experiences from the hearingaidforums.com that I mentioned earlier. There is a difference, an improvement with higher number of channels. And yes today's advanced hearing aids can greatly improve speech understanding in restaurants and other noisy settings. I understand just fine what restaurant noise is but you refuse to enlighten yourself and accept the fact that there is tech in modern HA (not in any americahear aids, sorry) that can eliminate any unwanted noise including other people's voices you don't want to hear.

Go download a brochure on new Micon line of aids from Siemens and a brochure on Phonak HA, read them, go to the abovementioned forum and read testimonials from people who actually use these newer advanced HA. I'm sorry you let yourself stuck with the inferior product and you believe leading manuf HA are at the same performance level as your aids but x-times more expensive, you get what you paid for.

You might enjoy reading up on that wine study. Here's a description:

In the blind taste test, 578 people commented on a variety of red and white wines ranging from a £3.49 bottle of Claret to a £29.99 bottle of champagne. The researchers categorised inexpensive wines as costing £5 and less, while expensive bottles were £10 and more.

The study found that people correctly distinguished between cheap and expensive white wines only 53% of the time, and only 47% of the time for red wines. The overall result suggests a 50:50 chance of identifying a wine as expensive or cheap based on taste alone – the same odds as flipping a coin.

Richard Wiseman, a psychologist at Hertfordshire University, conducted the survey at the Edinburgh International Science Festival.

"People just could not tell the difference between cheap and expensive wine," he said. "When you know the answer, you fool yourself into thinking you would be able to tell the difference, but most people simply can't."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2011/apr/14/expensive-wine-cheap-plonk-taste

[Shurup]

Not quite the same comparing wine tasting with hearing aids... With HA you either hear or you don't (as in a restaurant example), and I know that I do.

I'm out of this discussion.