Vocalising The Thai Vowel อือ

[fire69water]

I would like to understand the experience of westerners when first learning Thai, whether they have problems with this vowel (อือ as in ชื่อ), as English and perhaps most European languages do not have this. I am a Chinese and the Chinese language has this vowel, so it is quite natural to me. I am asking this because I plan to teach Thai and Chinese in the near future and I would like a Westerner's perspective.

Thank you.

[rijb]

I don't have a problem with vowels. I do need help with tones.

[Peppy]

Yes, it doesn't exist in English, but it isn't difficult to teach someone how to say it. Just tell them to say "oo" as in moon, but DON'T round the lips like you're going to kiss somebody. Instead, clench your teeth and keep your lips wide, like a snarling dog, and the sound'll come out as "อือ".

[melvinmelvin]

easy sound, for me at least

[kriswillems]

For me this was a difficult vowel, because it's very similar (but not exactly the same) to a vowel we've in Dutch. So, in the beginning I used the Dutch vowel and people didn't always understand me.

[lumdam]

For me this was a difficult vowel, because it's very similar (but not exactly the same) to a vowel we've in Dutch. So, in the beginning I used the Dutch vowel and people didn't always understand me.

I had exactly this problem, except I don't speak Dutch. I was told that the Thai vowel is [y].

For some reason I couldn't get the right sound when trying to follow the "say /u/ and smile" advice, maybe because my /u/ isn't exactly standard. I'm still not sure I say it correctly, but I'll have a native helping me with pronunciation soon.

I also used to pronounce จ and ฉ incorrectly, because many websites, books, and Thai people insist that they have equivalents in English. IPA to the rescue!

[bkksteviejai]

I imagined that this vowel is what I'd say if I just trod in some ขี้หมา, with teeth clenched..........horses for courses I guess!.

[kokesaat]

clenching the teeth was the key to me finally learning the proper way to pronounce the sound.

[RickBradford]

Say the word 'booooo' and gradually widen your mouth from the rounded position to full width extension; then you will have the correct sound.

[Richard W]

I was told that the Thai vowel is [y].

I get really annoyed when I see that error, which of course is reinforced by the transcription 'ue'. (The IPA uses an 'm' rotated 180°, i.e. 'ɯ'.)

[ChristianPFC]

In German we have Umlaute (ä, ö, ü), of which ü is pretty close to อือ. In Russian there is ы (in case this is displayed incorrectly: the last letter of Russian for "you" (singular or plural) and "we") which is pretty close as well.

I like IPA. When I read the romanizations of Thai words, which are done for English-speaking people, I initially pronounce it like I would do in German (because I don't recognize these words as English!), then I notice my mistake and pronounce them English.

Edited November 19, 2011 by ChristianPFC

[dominique355]

English is not very well suited for Thai transliterations, because there are many vowels in Thai, which simply don't exist in English. And that's not only the อึอ .

Also short and long vowels are difficult to be properly transliterated into English.

Sometimes there are strange if not hilarious transliterations like "porn" for พอร , when "pawn" would be much better and no connotation problems.

In my experience, German would be a much better language for Thai transliterations, as German has Umlaute (as said before) and easy ways to make a vowel short or long.

So do we German speaking folks have an advantage in learning Thai? Yes, I think so, at least for the proper pronunciation of vowels.

Actually, I would say, Thai language does not really distinguish between consonants and vowels. There are just letters and accents. Look for instance at the letter ย or "yo yak". It is considered to be a consonant in the Thai language, but clearly it isn't a consonant in the true meaning of the word (con - sonant), since it has its own sound. But sometimes it is used like a vowel too, and then it needs the empty letter อ to proceed it, just like any other vowel.

Still confused? Yes, but at a higher level.

[lumdam]

Note that most Thai romanizations are not transliterations, because they discard information.

In my experience, German would be a much better language for Thai transliterations, as German has Umlaute (as said before) and easy ways to make a vowel short or long.

It's not necessary to follow the rules of any language. A scheme for Thai romanization could use its own rules designed to make it unambiguous and as simple as possible.

The advantage in using "phonetic English" is that English speakers can try to read it without learning anything new, and get somewhat close to correct. Or that's how it's supposed to work. As a non-English-speaker I'm clearly biased, but I think most romanization system for Thai do more harm than good and I'd prefer to see more IPA.

So do we German speaking folks have an advantage in learning Thai? Yes, I think so, at least for the proper pronunciation of vowels.

German still doesn't have equivalents for อือ and เออ, though.

[fire69water]

In German we have Umlaute (ä, ö, ü), of which ü is pretty close to อือ.

If I am not wrong, ü is the equivalent of the u in French of say, tu or the vowel in English "she". If so, then ü is not อือ and there is no ü equivalent in Thai. It does exist in Chinese, though.

Edited November 21, 2011 by fire69water

[fire69water]

Actually, I would say, Thai language does not really distinguish between consonants and vowels. There are just letters and accents. Look for instance at the letter ย or "yo yak". It is considered to be a consonant in the Thai language, but clearly it isn't a consonant in the true meaning of the word (con - sonant), since it has its own sound. But sometimes it is used like a vowel too, and then it needs the empty letter อ to proceed it, just like any other vowel.

Thai language does distinguish between consonants and vowels. Very much, I might add. It's not the case of Thai consonants having a built-in vowel. It's just that "yor" is the reference name, just as each English consonant has its own reference name, e.g., B is called Bee, J is called Jay. Also, you cannot use อ to precede ย to produce a vowel of อี. If you are talking about ออย, ย is used as a final consonant, making the ออ from a simple vowel sound of "ore" to a mixed vowel sound of "oy".

[Mole]

Actually, I would say that the German ü sounds more closely to the mandarin sound like in 魚.

In Norwegian the letter y is pronounced with the same sound as German ü, while u is pronounced the same as the Thai อือ while o is pronounced as Thai อู.

ø is used for เออ which is the same as German ö

[lumdam]

ø is used for เออ which is the same as German ö

In IPA, เออ is [ɤ] and German ö is [ø]. They sound similar but are quite different; the Thai vowel is back and unrounded while the German vowel is front and rounded.

I am no linguist, but my source is Handbook of the International Phonetic Association which should be good enough. ^^

And according to Wikipedia, Norwegian doesn't have อือ [ɯ].

[Mole]

Well, wikipedia can write what it wants.

I am a native speaker of Norwegian and also Thai so I can tell that the Norwegian ø and u is the same as เออ and อือ.

The only difference is the usage of tones when saying them and I think it's probably this which makes them sound as if they are slightly different but they are not.

This is a problem with IPA also because this system doesn't cover the usage of tones and I've always wondered over all the different symbols it uses for the so called different sounds and now it make me realize that some of them may actually be the same and just sound different perhaps because of tones.

Just try to say อือ อื่อ

อือ is pronounced more at the front of the lips while อื่อ is more at the back at the throat and sound as if it's more deeper than อือ

อื้อ sound softer than อือ and อื่อ

อื๋อ actually sound as it it's a diphthong between two slightly different sounds.

[lumdam]

Well, wikipedia can write what it wants.

The article on Norwegian phonology does give a source: The Phonology of Norwegian by Oxford University Press. You're of course free to think you are more authoritative than that.

This is a problem with IPA also because this system doesn't cover the usage of tones

Huh?? IPA does have symbols for indicating tones.

and I've always wondered over all the different symbols it uses for the so called different sounds and now it make me realize that some of them may actually be the same and just sound different perhaps because of tones.

Some sounds, vowels in particular, have very small differences that are difficult to hear for most people. But the different symbols do not represent identical sounds.

Just try to say อือ อื่อ

อือ is pronounced more at the front of the lips while อื่อ is more at the back at the throat and sound as if it's more deeper than อือ

อื้อ sound softer than อือ and อื่อ

อื๋อ actually sound as it it's a diphthong between two slightly different sounds.

That's very interesting, does anyone know where I could read more about this?

[Mole]

Hmm.. OK, now that I've been sitting here and saying out loud u to myself like a madman, I realized it is slightly different.

The Norwegian u is pronounced more with the lips while Thai is in the throat only.

And yes, I looked up info about IPA and they do cover tones.

I wasn't really aware of this because the times that I've been in contact with IPA is with non tonal languages.

[poanoi]

IMO those german letters ö and ü is a necessity for decent karaoke thai.

Indeed the americans i know are downright incapable of producing those sounds

[fire69water]

IMO those german letters ö and ü is a necessity for decent karaoke thai.

Indeed the americans i know are downright incapable of producing those sounds

I don't know about ö but ü is the vowel for "she", I think.

Edited November 22, 2011 by fire69water