Rural Business Idea For Thai Family

[jasonc]

My wife's uneducated father and brother need a job in rural Kanchanaburi. They have bounced between typical employers who pay them between 60 and 150b a day for picking potatoes but that labor is drying up and very hard to find. They moved to Surat Thani to drive trucks and cut lumber but the boss ended up not paying them so they returned home. It's nothing new, typical story.

I support the family and have no problem doing so. I look at it as my pleasure since they created such a amazing, low maintaince, beautiful girl who take great care of me. I have no intention of stopping the support for them but the father and brother are growing restless and can't stand sitting around waiting for me to to be generous with them. I think it's degrading to them. They want something to do and are fiercely wanting to be independent from "bothering me".

My business partner has a wife from the Philippines. He bought her family a fleet of jeepneys to drive. It rarely makes a profit but it employees most of her family. It keeps them busy and generates enough money and pride to support her extended family. It's worked well for 10 years so far. I want the same type of idea here.

I'm willing to get them started on something but their ideas don't seem so clever to me. It's not critical that the idea is profitable as much as it can support itself and manitain a sense of usefulness for the MEN of the house. They keep going back to the idea of raising 20 cows on their unused property. The cows are purchased locally for 10,000b raised for 3 months and sold locally for 12,000-13,000b. Not much of a return for a lot of work. They have experience with cows but never a herd. It's what the "rich" guys do in their village so I'm sure it's the only idea they can come up with. I assume if they had a truck they could purchase the cows for cheaper or sell them for more making a better return. I'd rather set them in a direction that earns at least 50% and is more stable. I've thought about a food cart, buying them a truck, tuk tuk but the demand in their little world is very low.

I've got a decent business mind and know if I find the right idea I can help them make it grow. I just don't know enough about their market to know what the demands are. I'm hoping some of you have tried and could share your good and negative experiences with me.

Thanks in advance.

P.S. - I haven't posted on here in years but I read it almost daily. I think I'll show up at the Christmas Party at Sin. That is my favorite bar in Bangkok.

[chownah]

You could start them off with two cows....see how it goes....tell them when they can turn the two cows into four cows and keep them alive and well for one year then you'll buy them two more cows so they'll have six (a hint here is that they should buy impregnable females)....or something like that. Have them start planting bamboo and whatever plant it is that you make thatch roofs from....this way they can make a shelter for the cows....and fences to corral them in and to keep them out of the fields that they will be planting with crops to be fed to the cows... If they can raise good quality feed themselves they will be able to bring the cows to market faster and at a higher weight and of a better quality beef.... This is probably the best way to develop a profitable cattle business in Thailand and a really good way to keep them really busy and...who knows...maybe they will actually turn into businessmen!! If left to their own devices they'll just let the cow out to pasture which is not all that profitable and will not take much effort on their part....its a really sabaii sabaii existence to keep cows this way but you'll not develop any business sense either...or stay very busy.

[Pudgimelon]

I've got a decent business mind and know if I find the right idea I can help them make it grow. I just don't know enough about their market to know what the demands are. I'm hoping some of you have tried and could share your good and negative experiences with me.

Thanks in advance.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

A note of caution, there are times when it seems to me that some people get an idea stuck in their head and if offer an alternative or raise concerns, you're cast as the "bad guy" who "isn't being helpful", even when you're footing the bill for practically everything.

Perhaps it comes down to the concept of "face", and that once an idea is proposed, it's impossible to go back on it because they'd lose face. So even if you present a perfectly well-reasoned argument as to why the venture may be folly, they won't appreciate you saving them from financial ruin, rather they'll just resent you for causing them to lose face.

For example, my wife's aunt (from upcountry) insisted on going to Australia by any means. She got it into her head that she could make a better life for herself there and plowed headlong through the visa process without a thought given to the consequences of overstaying that tourist visa.

I tried to talk some sense into her (via my wife), but my advice went unheeded (and I actually got in a bit of trouble with my wife for "not supporting" her aunt in her little adventure). So for the sake of marital bliss, I clammed up and the aunt went ahead and took a tourist visa over to Australia to stay with my wife's uncle (who is an Australia citizen).

Sure enough, not a few months later, Australian immigration is ringing up the woman who sponsored my wife's aunt's visa. My wife's aunt is complaining of homesickness and worried about getting arrested and deported and blacklisted. And my wife's uncle is totally abusing the situation, working her like a slave in his restaurant and not paying her any of the money he promised.

She's stuck in a bad spot now, but if she'd only listened to my advice, she could have gotten a proper visa and working papers. YES, it would have taken a few more months (or maybe even a year), but what's the rush? Another year in Thailand isn't going to kill her (it's not like her business was failing, she was doing just fine here), and it's far better than risking arrest, being taken advantage of, and not being able to stay or go.

Yet as reasonable as that argument may have seemed, it simply WASN'T going to be heard by anyone at the time. Any insistence on my part to pursue the slow, torturous bureaucratic process of getting a legitimate Australian work visa would have been deemed as "questioning" my elders, and causing them to lose face.

So just saying, sometimes you just gotta step aside and let the lemmings jump off the cliff anyway. Your efforts to stop them won't be appreciated, so just let them go figure it out for themselves (and remember to keep the "I told you so's" to yourself).

If your father-in-law and brother-in-law have it stuck in their heads that cow farming is the way to go, you might just have to sigh to yourself and say, "OK, let's make an initial investment in this that's not going to kill us if we lose it", and then just hope for the best.

If they succeed, well, hey, maybe they really did know what they were talking about. If they don't succeed, well, at least they'll be more open to suggestions next time (maybe).

But sometimes this Thai desire to "do what the 'rich people' do" is an irresistable force. There's a mentality here that if you want to be successful, then you need to do EXACTLY what other successful people did. Individual entrepreneurship is generally viewed as a form of madness. You'd have to be stark raving mad to try something NEW! (case in point: around where I live, they just keep opening more and more thai massage spas. the thinking must be: "hey, if the first twenty places made money, then certainly my 21st spa on this block will make SCADS of cash!")

So, if you find that you can't fight it, just try to steer it in the least harmful direction. And if you can't do that, just hold your breath and consider it money "spent" (not lost) on good relations with the in-laws. That can be worth its weight in gold sometimes, trust me.

Edited November 21, 2005 by Pudgimelon

[Spit the Dog]

I do agree with the point Pudgimelon made. If the father and brother in law have it in their head that they want to have a cow farm, then it's probably best to let them have it. If it isn't a big financial risk for you, then why not. In the process the inlaws would be grateful to you for helping them to fulfill their ambition.

I'm sure that if you started a business for them that diddn't impress the locals back in the village, they would make some half-arsed attempt at running it.

[Buff-horns]

i know a chap who bought his family a whole load of pigs and cows, but every time he goes back there is less of them. they just keep on eating them . soon there wont be any left .

[jasonc]

Pudgimelon... Great advice. I think you are right on the mark.

They keep bringing it up again and again. They don't take to my suggestions of alternatives.

I'll take your advice and let them go with it. I'll also listen to Chowna and start them a slightly smaller group. They've already got 6 cows so maybe I'll get them 10 more and guide them to grow their own food and bamboo. I can check on them often and give some carefully delivered suggestions but I'll have to learn to keep my objections to myself.

Open to more suggestions.

Thanks for the feedback!

[chownah]

Pudgimelon... Great advice. I think you are right on the mark.

They keep bringing it up again and again. They don't take to my suggestions of alternatives.

I'll take your advice and let them go with it. I'll also listen to Chowna and start them a slightly smaller group. They've already got 6 cows so maybe I'll get them 10 more and guide them to grow their own food and bamboo. I can check on them often and give some carefully delivered suggestions but I'll have to learn to keep my objections to myself.

Open to more suggestions.

Thanks for the feedback!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If they've got 6 cows already and you buy them 10 more then the operation will be so big that growing bamboo to make fencing might not be feasible. My idea was sort of on the lines of if they start with two cows and it takes them a few years to get the herd up to size then if they plant bamboo now they would have a supply ready when needed...but....with six cows already and 10 more on the way then there is not enough lead time since it takes bamboo an absolute minimum of 2 years under ideal conditions to produce useable culms and realistically it take 3 years. Planting the bamboo is still worth doing for the future...but you'll probably get alot of resistence from them on this since it won't solve their immediate problems and long range planning is sometimes lacking in these types of endeavors.

[too true]

Have got a similar kind of situation brewing up north here. Husband's best friend rings us last night from the village and says he's bought a truck and he's been on the "how to take care of cattle" course at some college in town, he's got the pens made and the mosquito nets big enough, and he's buying himself some cows. And of course, do we want in on his brilliant plan.... we don't even have to be there. he'll take care of them for us.

This wouldn't be for us to make money to live - we've got jobs. Just a little something on the side. Is it possible to lose money on cows, assuming they don't die?

I've done a search here, but it's hard to know which forum to search in.

Some of you guys have got farms, right? Is there a right and wrong way to raise cattle?

Thai people are always looking for the get rich quick scheme. I'm quite sure it's not in farming, but how to convince them...

[chownah]

Have got a similar kind of situation brewing up north here.  Husband's best friend rings us last night from the village and says he's bought a truck and he's been on the "how to take care of cattle" course at some college in town, he's got the pens made and the mosquito nets big enough, and he's buying himself some cows.  And of course, do we want in on his brilliant plan....  we don't even have to be there. he'll take care of them for us. 

This wouldn't be for us to make money to live - we've got jobs.  Just a little something on the side.  Is it possible to lose money on cows, assuming they don't die?

I've done a search here, but it's hard to know which forum to search in. 

Some of you guys have got farms, right?  Is there a right and wrong way to raise cattle? 

Thai people are always looking for the get rich quick scheme.  I'm quite sure it's not in farming, but how to convince them...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

There is a lot of information about raising cows in the Isaan forum. Not too long ago a member named Random Chances posted a short financial run down on raising cows as a business. He has a successful dairy operation so raising milk is his business but as you can tell this means that he knows alot about cows in general. Go search there and see if it answers your questions.

About the possibility of loosing money....it is possible to loose money in any business. Aside from legitimate business expenses which can make a venture a looser there is also the possibility that one of the partners will have an urgent need for money and liquidate some assets without asking the other partners first...it is also possible that the people doing the work might get tired of doing it and show up at your doorstep some evening with your share of the cows staked out in your front yard....oooops....what next. I'm not trying to dissuade you from this project...just bringing up some possible outcomes.

[Slim Chance]

I've helped a couple families $tart businesses, though not cattle or livestock.

Two suggestions: try and keep in touch as a 'partner' and diplomatically ask questions and show interest in the project, since it sounds like you have about as much experience as they do, and, make sure they have a vet to periodically inspect the herd; that ounce of prevention and all that. My understanding is that diet is important, also.

But by all means, help them. It's only (not that much) money. And it could mean a world of difference for them on several levels.

[astral]

Several of my wife's family make a living selling clothes at the various

markets in the area.

It can be done from the back of a pickup truck,or with a small stall to set up

at each site, evening by evening.

Not a great money maker but it keeps the families fed and clothed and

over the years both have managed to save to buy houses.

[think_too_mut]

I've helped a couple families $tart businesses, though not cattle or livestock.

Two suggestions: try and keep in touch as a 'partner' and diplomatically ask questions and show interest in the project, since it sounds like you have about as much experience as they do, and, make sure they have a vet to periodically inspect the herd; that ounce of prevention and all that. My understanding is that diet is important, also.

But by all means, help them. It's only (not that much) money. And it could mean a world of difference for them on several levels.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Heard of that many times. To start from the beginning, they have to understand what the word "project" stands for.

Somehow, it's always 100K baht to get them in and another 100K baht to get them out.

There is a member here who has ventured into the farming, if he comes along he may tell you more. I know nothing about farming, they know even less.

I have stayed out of all their ideas and nothing happened. Appears, their attempt to suck up some money was not successffull.

[RamdomChances]

Here's a copy of something I've posted before and the post link if you want to read the whole thing.

As chownah said on an earlier post, cattle here are usually reared one of two ways.

1. "Free Range" or what most of us would call free range, these are the people that actually raise cows, they will have mainly female cows and calfs, which are taken out and grazed on anything really but not usually fed much if any consentrate. A couple of times a year they will get their "surplus cows" take them to market and sell them to the "feed lot" operators.

2. "feed lot" they dont usually raise cattle, but buy in slightly immature cattle from the free range people, these are then kept pened, and feed either rice straw or hand cut grass along with concentrate food, the better the "forrage" you feed them the lower your concentrate costs will be. They will probably be injected with anti parasite drugs (the free range usually are'nt) and then fattened up for 3-4 months and sold on for meat, you cant sell for meat until 45 days after the anti parasite injections, depending on which ones you use, as far as I am aware there are no growth hormones currently used here, mabye some of the really big farms use them, but I've never come across it and I have links and cataloges of most of the big vetenary suppliers here in Thailand.

Consentrate food is made from a mix of localy avalible products and as far as I know does not contain the remains of other animals (well excluding fish meal). The "protien" part is usually provided with soya, fish meal or some other high protien nut type product along with a variety of other things (corn, casava, sohgram). These are the things that provide the protien and carb part of the food but are expensive to buy, the "bulk" of the food is then provided from a variety of by-products form various sources (ground corn husks, rice husks, brewers grains) which are cheap to buy but contain little actual food value. The result is either a powder or pellets that have a protien content of around 18% and cost about 5-6 bhat/kg. We actaully used to make our own and I have a few recipies for differet mixes for different protien contents, making you own drops the price down to around 3-4 bhat/kg (we dont do it now as the quantities would just be to difficult to handle).

The "free range" people make their money from actally raising the cows and the feed lot by adding the weight allthough some farms combine the two. Free range you need some land for grazing, and someone who has the time to take the cows out looking for grass and to look after them while they are eating it, they are usually just fed rice straw in the hot/cold seasons when there is nothing growing, they will try to sell their bull cows at around 12-16 months and look to buy in female cows preferably pregnant.

The "feed lot " people look to buy in 12-16 month bulls and then keep them for 3-4 months of fattening up, usually penned and all the food is brought to them, as a general rule of thumb for "thai" cattle you woud be paying around 1000 bhat per month of age (i.e a 12 month 12,000 bhat ect). The dificulty of making money from feed lot comes from knowing the market and knowing how to feed them for maximum weight gain against cost, the margins are pretty tight so if you end up paying even a 1000 bhat over the odds you would be making a large cut into your profits (I've been told about 2000-3000 bhat profit a cow over a 3 month period).

There are local beef cattle markets virtually everywhere and a lot of trading goes on farm to farm, the bigger markets you need to get there early, even the night before in some cases, until you know the market well you will need someone with LOT's of experiance with you or you will end up buying at a price that will leave you litttle profit.

There are more and more farms doing Charolaise/Brahmin crosses its not someting I've gone into in a lot of detail, but they seem to mainly deal with agents rather than buying and selling on the markets.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=47761

It sound's to me as they want to do the "feed lot" type farm, just buying and selling. Infrastructure is pretty cheap, you can make the pens out of wood, bamboo is excelent for fencing.

Obviously its possible to lose money and there is always the temptation to use the money invested in the cows, rather than just the profits. For example..you buy 10 cows for 150,000 bhat and sell for 180,000 bhat, if there are'nt any suitable cows to buy then that 180,000 bhat starts burning a hole in the pocket so instead of having 30,000 bhat and buying an other 10 cows they might use some of the money and then have only enough to buy say 8 cows....it's a downward spiral and I've seen it happen a few times.

Other than that you should'nt really lose money....you may not make any or lose a little bit, depending on how mush you buy and sell for but baring any major disasters the only way you will lose much is by bad managment.

Just as a bit of a guide bagged food is about 6 bhat/kg and at the moment hay (rice straw) is 20 bhat a bail. You will have to feed on the low end 2 kg of bagged food and half a bail of hay a day, so thats around 2000 bhat in feed costs for 3 months. Beef cattle at the moment are going for about 40 bhat/kg so to make 2000 bhat in 3 months they will have to gain at least 100kg in body weight, thats not including you transport costs, medicen (not expensive) labour ect. Those are pretty tight margins IMO.

RC

[Johpa]

Some of you guys have got farms, right?  Is there a right and wrong way to raise cattle? 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The right way is be raised on a farm and learn everything from childhood. The alternative is to attend one of the provincial agricultural schools, then spend a year on someone else's farm learning what they did not teach at the agricultural school. Every other way is usually the wrong way.

My brother in-law grew up learning how to care for chickens, cows, water buffalos, pigs, pigeons (raised for famine times) and elephants. He can raise any of the above with sucess. Then once upon a time he had this notion placed into his head that he could raise frogs for profit. What do you do with empty concrete frog pens?

[too true]

The right way is be raised on a farm and learn everything from childhood. The alternative is to attend one of the provincial agricultural schools, then spend a year on someone else's farm learning what they did not teach at the agricultural school. Every other way is usually the wrong way.

My brother in-law grew up learning how to care for chickens, cows, water buffalos, pigs, pigeons (raised for famine times) and elephants. He can raise any of the above with sucess. Then once upon a time he had this notion placed into his head that he could raise frogs for profit. What do you do with empty concrete frog pens?

These guys have also grown up with cows and buffalo and chickens and pigs. I don't doubt that they can take care of cows - it's the making a profit part I doubt. If it were so easy, there'd be a lot more rich farmers around, and that just isn't the case. A concrete house with an indoor toilet does not a rich man make.

So the frog thing wasn't a success??? We also did frogs at our house. The tadpoles came to us for free as unused fishing bait. We only had about 40 of them, but my husband was convinced he could sell them. Then we went to Canada for a holiday, friends agreed to take care of them, and somehow they "escaped". Yeah, right, and they just happened to jump right from their frog pen to a boiling pot of tom yum soup??? I'd bet my firstborn son that they were all eaten. Oh well. Nothing gained, nothing lost.

[Heng]

For folks who have never done business, the first lesson (and these should last years at a time... not just an hour long lecture) should involve pennies (satangs), not hundreds of thousands of Baht. I'm surrounded by folks who deal with millions month to month, but not one would have gotten there if they didn't value every single last Baht.

Thus, let them start with a business where the inventory isn't so easy to drink, eat, steal, or pawn ... and when it is, the loss is minor, not make or break to the business. Perhaps service businesses would be more ideal.

[sakaew]

As always ,Heng is spot on. He's a winner.

His advice is invariably short, sharp...and to the point.

And unlike all the rest of we armchair experts...he KNOW how the average thai thinks.

His advice--maybe a small restaurant or similar--would admirably fill the bill...with little downside.

I started my sister-in-law in a restaurant in the village.

She had no experience at all...but I was impressed by two things.

a... She is still with the same husband, after 20 years. No small feat, since 6 of her brothers and sisters have split from the original partners.

b....Her and her husband , by working their guts out working on sugar cane, cassava, corn etc etc...have managed to build a modest concrete block house.

It struck me that there is a stability PLUS a capability to avoid wasting money...which boded well for the future.

In 18 months, she has steadily built up her business, and has sent her son to Technical High School....the first kid in the family not to bust his back growing rice.

Some CAN succeed....It's tempting to "help" someone get started in business.

Farmers, admirable though they may be, are usually FAR from being businessmen...or having the slightest idae of what business is really all about.

Helping someone to succeed is a good feeling. Helping them to fail..........

[astral]

Before you put money in any project, ask how much the other side will

contribute.

A 50/50 split is a good idea.

If they cannot raise their share, then neither should you.

[bannork]

The cattle idea can succeed, perhaps your relatives have previous experience of it, if not they should check out a few things first, ie the local market, what type of cows are fetching what prices, in Udon the brahmin are a good bet. What land do they have? Could they build a small house and a bamboo cowshed on it and plant lucerne or pangola grass, how about a water supply?

Start off with say 5 pregnant brahmin cows, until next rainy season they will be easy to take care of as the herder can tether them on any paddies where's there's grass, moving them every few hours. Beef cattle cost little to keep if they're out to pasture, occasional food supplements and once in a while vets' bills, but these are cheap. It sounds like your relatives want to make a go for it, give them a chance.

[MikeRay]

We just spent 2200 Dollars on 13 Rai Land with kor sor 5 title.But it is just behind our house and has a lake with fish about 1 Rai large,3 Rai fruits and vegetables and the rest is for rice farming.That is definitely enough for living as I was told.What they do not eat they sell.Last year we have bought 3 baby pigs at the price 1500 Baht\each.A year later sold at 4500 Baht per hundred kilo.A young bull is available at 4500 Baht and a young cow will cost about 6000 Baht.Remeber that 2500 Dollars reasonably spent can be a fortune to them

[Heng]

His advice--maybe a small restaurant or similar--would admirably fill the bill...with little downside.

I started my sister-in-law in a restaurant in the village.

She had no experience at all...but I was impressed by two things.

a... She is still with the same husband, after 20 years. No small feat, since 6 of her brothers and sisters have split from the original partners.

b....Her and her husband , by working their guts out working on sugar cane, cassava, corn etc etc...have managed to build a modest concrete block house.

It struck me that there is a stability PLUS a capability to avoid wasting money...which boded well for the future.

That's great that you were able to help them build that... and it's great that they were able to stay on top of their business. IMO though, restaurants are businesses that are full of potential leaks. It's also a business where the inventory depreciates (and rots) with each passing minute. The 'country road side restaurant' is just another cousin of the 'falang bar.' It can work, but most don't make it.

[RamdomChances]

The cattle idea can succeed, perhaps your relatives have previous experience of it, if not they should check out a few things first, ie the local market, what type of cows are fetching what prices, in Udon the brahmin are a good bet. What land do they have? Could they build a small house and a bamboo cowshed on it and plant lucerne or pangola grass, how about a water supply?

Start off with say 5 pregnant brahmin cows, until next rainy season they will be easy to take care of as the herder can tether them on any paddies where's there's grass, moving them every few hours. Beef cattle cost little to keep if they're out to pasture, occasional food supplements and once in a while vets' bills, but these are cheap. It sounds like your relatives want to make a go for it, give them a chance.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Personely I'd go more for the "feed lot" type beef, buy in 12-16 month old bulls and fatten them up. The breeding of beef cattle can give you good returns but IMHO you just have to wait sooo long for your return.

Say you buy in 5 pregnant Brahmins...a few months for them to give birth and then 12-16 months before you sell any, Ok say that 3 calfs are bulls the others are cows, you sell the 3 bulls about a year and a half later for around 15,000 bhat each, giving you 45,000 bhat and keep the two female ones. Ok your herd grows, but you have to wait probably about 3 years before those 2 extra female calfs give birth.

I used to keep all our female calfs and at one point I had around 50 of various ages. The growth potential is great but that 3 year wait is a killer as they are just eating your profits all the time. I ended up getting rid of most of them (kept the older ones). I worked out it would cost me about 20,000 bhat to raise a decent milker to the point where it would actually produce (about 3 years old), but the price of milk cattle had droped a fair bit in the last year and I can buy in 6-7 month pregnant cows(first baby) for around 25,000 a head and not have all my money tied up for 3 years. Once you put in the mortality rate for raising your own at about 5% and the added staff burden of looking after them all there is not much differance in the cost really.

We still keep a few but only form my best cows, but as there are less of them we can look after them better and get much better groth rates.

RC

Edited November 24, 2005 by RamdomChances

[steveromagnino]

You cannot ask someone with no experience and limited knowledge of the world to come up with the plan for say a worldwide free internet service subsidized by selling life insurance or the like.

Look at the stats for business ventures in the west; what average of like 80% failure rate in the first 5 years or something? All I can suggest is that people get some experience and additional skills in something. Otherwise you have to do a business that is easy to learn. Such as selling clothes, mobile phones...all the things everyone else does.

And there is not much money in that unless you get in early and even then there may not be much money.

Made even worse when you are saying to someone with no business knowledge or experience - have all this money, and see how you get on with something you know little about. Would you give $100k to a 10 year old who came up with some idea to copy someone else's business model?

Probably not.

So possibly not best to do this here.

At least not until you manage to educate a bit. THe labour department have various courses on raising cattle for instance; send them on one of those, then see what they think.

They also have all these books and courses about other jobs and crops. There may just be a knowledge gap here.

But if you are paying for it, you BETTER make sure they are enthusiastic about whatever you want them to do, otherwise it is a no loss sitation for them; they didn't front up with the money, so silent investor did, and who cares if you lose their money>?

Tons of books available on just about all these topics.

Interestingly, lots of studies show that owning I think it is less than 20 rai of land, makes many people poorer than the people who own no land at all....the lack of scale vs. effort involved.

I'd say the returns generated by foreigner contributed cash would also be substandard, because so much of it is invested in the idea without scant regard to the people involved. Management is about getting something done through others; take a good look at the people involved and you may decide they would be better off continuing to work picknig potatoes or whatever or working for someone else - they may simply not have the skills to make money out of whatever you give them.

[bannork]

The cattle idea can succeed, perhaps your relatives have previous experience of it, if not they should check out a few things first, ie the local market, what type of cows are fetching what prices, in Udon the brahmin are a good bet. What land do they have? Could they build a small house and a bamboo cowshed on it and plant lucerne or pangola grass, how about a water supply?

Start off with say 5 pregnant brahmin cows, until next rainy season they will be easy to take care of as the herder can tether them on any paddies where's there's grass, moving them every few hours. Beef cattle cost little to keep if they're out to pasture, occasional food supplements and once in a while vets' bills, but these are cheap. It sounds like your relatives want to make a go for it, give them a chance.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Personely I'd go more for the "feed lot" type beef, buy in 12-16 month old bulls and fatten them up. The breeding of beef cattle can give you good returns but IMHO you just have to wait sooo long for your return.

Say you buy in 5 pregnant Brahmins...a few months for them to give birth and then 12-16 months before you sell any, Ok say that 3 calfs are bulls the others are cows, you sell the 3 bulls about a year and a half later for around 15,000 bhat each, giving you 45,000 bhat and keep the two female ones. Ok your herd grows, but you have to wait probably about 3 years before those 2 extra female calfs give birth.

I used to keep all our female calfs and at one point I had around 50 of various ages. The growth potential is great but that 3 year wait is a killer as they are just eating your profits all the time. I ended up getting rid of most of them (kept the older ones). I worked out it would cost me about 20,000 bhat to raise a decent milker to the point where it would actually produce (about 3 years old), but the price of milk cattle had droped a fair bit in the last year and I can buy in 6-7 month pregnant cows(first baby) for around 25,000 a head and not have all my money tied up for 3 years. Once you put in the mortality rate for raising your own at about 5% and the added staff burden of looking after them all there is not much differance in the cost really.

We still keep a few but only form my best cows, but as there are less of them we can look after them better and get much better groth rates.

RC

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Going back to the original poster RC I see the relatives are talking about 20 cows and making an average of 2,500 baht a head profit after 3 months. Personally I think that's optimistic, but based on those figures he's talking about 45,000 baht for 3 months work. The poster thinks that's little money but I beg to differ, for Thai labourers that works out at 7,000 baht a month each which is not to be sniffed at when you've been a hired hand for less than that and sometimes not been paid. As you know upcountry people can live on 50 baht a day or less if they have their own rice.

The poster is a businessman, I think he should buy them the 20 cows, give them 150 baht a day living expenses and see how things lie after the 3 months they mention.

[aughie]

How many rai of pasture do they need to fatten up 20 head of cattle? Do they have a sufficient amount of land? Can the amount of land they have continuously sustain grazing? Do they have enough land that a portion can be set aside to rest and grow new grass while another section is grazed?

Edited November 24, 2005 by aughie

[RamdomChances]

Bannork

Going back to the original poster RC I see the relatives are talking about 20 cows and making an average of 2,500 baht a head profit after 3 months. Personally I think that's optimistic, but based on those figures he's talking about 45,000 baht for 3 months work. The poster thinks that's little money but I beg to differ, for Thai labourers that works out at 7,000 baht a month each which is not to be sniffed at when you've been a hired hand for less than that and sometimes not been paid. As you know upcountry people can live on 50 baht a day or less if they have their own rice.

The poster is a businessman, I think he should buy them the 20 cows, give them 150 baht a day living expenses and see how things lie after the 3 months they mention.

I agree with you, up country 15,000 bhat a month is a fair income. Probably about 3x the average here. I actually looked into doing this in some depth and I was working on 2000 bhat/head for 3 months, but buying 30 over a 3 month period. The idea being that you would try and buy/sell 10 cows a month so trun the stock over and give a fairly regular income also its much easier at the smaller local markets to pick up 10 cows or sell 10 rather than 30 at one go. In reality I'd of probably ended up going every week and buying and selling a few. In the end I did'nt go for it for a number of reasons.

1. I did'nt think after taking into account all the costs I'd actually make the 2000. I've been told by lots of people that 3000 is possible, but I have a strong feeling that they were not taking all their costs into account (if any).

2. I can make more money by buying more dairy cows, I was really looking for a sideline not having all your eggs in one basket and all that.

3. The margins are so small that unless you are really experianced (this goes for Thais as well) a small mistake on the buying or selling price will leave you with very little, bearing in mind there are people that have been doing this for most of their lives at the markets and they will always try to haggle you up or down depending on wether they are buying or selling.

4. I did'nt want to be trapsing to the market every week.

Saying all that the OP is in a different situation from me as I'd probably end up doing it myself (the buying and selling anyway) and he has people who apparently have some experiance of beef cattle, so at the end of the day if he's got the money spare, why not fork out for 20 cows (about 300,000) and see what happens in 3 months time, Get them to keep a good check on what they have actuall spent rather just the differance between the buying and selling prices. If the worst comes to the worst and you dont make a profit when they sell the cows, at least they would not have lost much and if they keep a check on what they actually spend you could show them that it does'nt work. Of course it might just all go well.

aughie.

I dont know for fattening up beef (you'd still need to feed them some consentrate anyway) but I recon that for mine, that if I wanted to be self sufficent in grass (i.e not buy in any hay) I'd need about 1 rai/1 head of cattle and then you would only be able to feed them for about half the year as cold and hot season nothing grows (well not much anyway). Mine go through about a ton of treated hay (rice straw) a day, we used to buy in bailed fresh grass and they would go through about a ton and a half of that. The best way to do it is to use electric wire and "fence" off segments of land then move the cows to a new segment while the previous ones grow back.

RC

Edited November 24, 2005 by RamdomChances