Male Family Commitment, Becoming A Monk.

[Mosha]

This past week end a monk's body was pulled from the La-Un Canal in Khao Fa Chi. He had been a monk for about 1 week. I jokingly said to my wife, perhaps he didn't want to be a monk. She said he didn't, but his father made him go. Just wondering what folks think of it.

[GuestHouse]

Given the sacrifices so many Thai women are required to make for their families a few weeks spent at a temple seems to be an easy ride.

Maybe he was missing having his mother and sisters running around doing all his chores.

[McGarty]

There is a lot of 'Face' in having a son become a monk even if it is short term. Big party, huge kudos. More power. Better business dealings. Even financial betterment? (not sure on this last one).

A powerful parent can ometimes persuade a son to do his bidding. There is also the point that becoming a monk even if for a short time only can wipe out some past misdemeanours committed.

With regard to being forced to do it. I do not like that idea. Yet this is a different culture. Many do not have the freedoms we are used to. It is possible the son needed the father's influence or money and the father could use this as a way to make him become a monk.

[rgs2001uk]

There is a lot of 'Face' in having a son become a monk even if it is short term. Big party, huge kudos. More power. Better business dealings. Even financial betterment? (not sure on this last one).

A powerful parent can ometimes persuade a son to do his bidding. There is also the point that becoming a monk even if for a short time only can wipe out some past misdemeanours committed.

With regard to being forced to do it. I do not like that idea. Yet this is a different culture. Many do not have the freedoms we are used to. It is possible the son needed the father's influence or money and the father could use this as a way to make him become a monk.

"With regard to being forced to do it. I do not like that idea."

Quote copied from above post.

I know more than one tearaway/punk/yob or whatever label you care to use who has basically been dragged kicking and screaming to the local temple by the parents, hoping the way of life and the monks can install some form of discipline.

There is a temple north of Bkk that is used by parents having trouble with their delinquent kids, sorry dont recall its name, its quite famous, the Thais will know its name.

[Mosha]

I was told some more info. The young man was taking Yaba, his parents put him in the Wat, hoping it would straighten him out. So the lad was obviously having problems.

[lazygourmet]

I was told some more info. The young man was taking Yaba, his parents put him in the Wat, hoping it would straighten him out. So the lad was obviously having problems.

In that case, Wat Tamkrabok would have been a more auspicious choice.

[Gers1873]

Young men 'encouraged' to become monks so the parents can benefit - Big party, huge kudos. More power. Better business dealings.

Young girls sent to work in bars to provide financial benefit to the parents.

And so it continues across the generations - will this cycle of child abuse ever be broken??

[afarang]

Young men ,becoming a monk, generally during the rainy season ,brings Great Merit to the Parents. All young men are expected to do so .My son went in when he was still in Primary School. About 10 of them did it at the same time ,It is a Very Important Rite of Passage,extremely important for the parents. It is not easy ,especially if you are a young kid. They sleep on mats and are woken up at 03.00 ,and do 3 hours of chanting. Then all the villagers bring food. After the Monks have done their rounds ,collecting Alms.The Senior monks are fed first , then the Novices, Whatever is left over , is then consumed by the villagers, who brought the food.It is a very important part of village life. When entering the monkhood, the first step is you get dressed in white robes, ,then every father has to cut a lock of hair off each boy, .After which ,senior monks shave the rest of the hair and the eyebrows. Then they are driven around the village for about 2 hours (in very hot sun) , while the villagers dance "The RamWong" At some point ,they don the Saffron robes. And then inside ,they go .Not allowed to have any physical contact with any female, even their own mothers. No food can be consumed after Midday, although water is allowed to be drunk. Sadly, nowa days , many drug addicts are forced in ,to try and straighten them out. This is NOT the proper reason to become a monk. This brings NO merit to the parents, but is becoming a major reason a lot of young boys are forced to join the monkhood. It is often this or Gaol. That is ,now the parents choice. Some choice !!!!

[kokesaat]

I wanted to be a priest when I was a young boy. I entered a seminary at age 13, class of 67. I'd say more than half that class didn't want to be there....but were pressured by family to enter the seminary.....and within a few weeks, many dropped out and returned home. Lots of tears in the dormitory at night as well.....probably homesick. I graduated 4 years later, second in my class. I was the only original from my freshman class of 67. My graduating class consisted of 2 students. My senior class mate entered the seminary in his junior year. He went on to become a priest. So of the original 67, none became priests.

[travelmann]

I wanted to be a priest when I was a young boy. I entered a seminary at age 13, class of 67. I'd say more than half that class didn't want to be there....but were pressured by family to enter the seminary.....and within a few weeks, many dropped out and returned home. Lots of tears in the dormitory at night as well.....probably homesick. I graduated 4 years later, second in my class. I was the only original from my freshman class of 67. My graduating class consisted of 2 students. My senior class mate entered the seminary in his junior year. He went on to become a priest. So of the original 67, none became priests.

And what did you learn from this?

[travelmann]

Young men ,becoming a monk, generally during the rainy season ,brings Great Merit to the Parents. All young men are expected to do so .My son went in when he was still in Primary School. About 10 of them did it at the same time ,It is a Very Important Rite of Passage,extremely important for the parents. It is not easy ,especially if you are a young kid. They sleep on mats and are woken up at 03.00 ,and do 3 hours of chanting. Then all the villagers bring food. After the Monks have done their rounds ,collecting Alms.The Senior monks are fed first , then the Novices, Whatever is left over , is then consumed by the villagers, who brought the food.It is a very important part of village life. When entering the monkhood, the first step is you get dressed in white robes, ,then every father has to cut a lock of hair off each boy, .After which ,senior monks shave the rest of the hair and the eyebrows. Then they are driven around the village for about 2 hours (in very hot sun) , while the villagers dance "The RamWong" At some point ,they don the Saffron robes. And then inside ,they go .Not allowed to have any physical contact with any female, even their own mothers. No food can be consumed after Midday, although water is allowed to be drunk. Sadly, nowa days , many drug addicts are forced in ,to try and straighten them out. This is NOT the proper reason to become a monk. This brings NO merit to the parents, but is becoming a major reason a lot of young boys are forced to join the monkhood. It is often this or Gaol. That is ,now the parents choice. Some choice !!!!

Ill mkae sure none of my Children ever go thru this ridicule so another shiny Palace to idiocy can be built.

[rgs2001uk]

Young men ,becoming a monk, generally during the rainy season ,brings Great Merit to the Parents. All young men are expected to do so .My son went in when he was still in Primary School. About 10 of them did it at the same time ,It is a Very Important Rite of Passage,extremely important for the parents. It is not easy ,especially if you are a young kid. They sleep on mats and are woken up at 03.00 ,and do 3 hours of chanting. Then all the villagers bring food. After the Monks have done their rounds ,collecting Alms.The Senior monks are fed first , then the Novices, Whatever is left over , is then consumed by the villagers, who brought the food.It is a very important part of village life. When entering the monkhood, the first step is you get dressed in white robes, ,then every father has to cut a lock of hair off each boy, .After which ,senior monks shave the rest of the hair and the eyebrows. Then they are driven around the village for about 2 hours (in very hot sun) , while the villagers dance "The RamWong" At some point ,they don the Saffron robes. And then inside ,they go .Not allowed to have any physical contact with any female, even their own mothers. No food can be consumed after Midday, although water is allowed to be drunk. Sadly, nowa days , many drug addicts are forced in ,to try and straighten them out. This is NOT the proper reason to become a monk. This brings NO merit to the parents, but is becoming a major reason a lot of young boys are forced to join the monkhood. It is often this or Gaol. That is ,now the parents choice. Some choice !!!!

Ill mkae sure none of my Children ever go thru this ridicule so another shiny Palace to idiocy can be built.

Indeed, agree 100%.

It never ceases to amaze me the amount of money some (are forced to) spend on these occasions.

When you take into consideration the pre piss up costs and the actual going to the wat itself, figures of 100k and over are easily achieved.

Borrowing money they dont have, then blowing lets say a years wages, to be paid back at who knows what rate of interest to a local loan shark.

I am sure it gives big face.

[wintermute]

How difficult could it be to be a Thai monk anyhow? I see them shopping at places like Pantip and eating at food stalls all the time. I thought they were supposed to only eat from received alms? Just the other day I saw a young monk bebopping along with his ipod without a care in the world while toting around a laptop.

Plus you hear all those stories about prostitution rings, drug/guns trafficking, etc.. that goes on behind the sacred walls and it all makes you wonder if Buddhism really has anything to do with Thailand at all.

[bina]

moved so maybe some more professional answers could be given

bina

[travelmann]

moved so maybe some more professional answers could be given

bina

Obviously not though?

[IMA_FARANG]

moved so maybe some more professional answers could be given

bina

Obviously not though?

------------------------------

Not sure what the question is or what needs to be "answered".

But, yes, in Thailand becoming a monk for a short period is more for show...to demonstrate the family's status and standing...rather than for any religious reasons.

It has some of the same function as the debutante "coming out" ball for young women in a "society" family that is often given by wealthy families in the U.S. or Europe for their young daughters.

It is mostly a demonstration of status and that the family "knows the rules" of status and propriety.

Obviously, I'm not Thai and and therefore don't understand all of the rules or play by those rules.

That's why the idea of a young man becoming a monk for a few days then disrobing and going back to "real life" seems silly to me.

Not to mention the expense for the family.

Now if it were the choice of the young man...that would be different. But from what I understand most of the time the whole thing is merely as a show of status for the family.

And not my tradition or type of Buddhisim. But like I said before...I am not Thai.

[Xangsamhua]

Sometimes it has the unintended effect of leading to a lifelong commitment.

There are cases of young men entering for the rainy season retreat and finding themselves unexpectedly with a commitment to the monastic vocation. This puts the family in an awkward position. Though they would have preferred their son to do the right thing and disrobe and marry and take up an honorable career, they have to look as though they're happy that the young man has chosen the "homeless" life of the bhikkhu. You can imagine mum and dad smiling through gritted teeth.

The famous Luang Por Jaran, of Wat Amphawan in Singburi, entered as a temporary monk many years ago and is now a highly revered meditation master. If I remember rightly (Fabian Fred can correct me) that wasn't the script though. Luang Por's dad pulled strings through his friendship with Field Marshall Luang Piboonsongkram to get his son into the Police College, a place he could take up after his three months in the wat, but Luang Por never disrobed.

It would be interesting to know how many lifelong monks entered with a view to staying only for the retreat season.

[bina]

my husband actually went in and would have preferred to stay, once he was became a monk. he was in forest areas not city, and flet 'free' from daily pressures, had some rather spritual experiences, and looks back to that time (almost a year of being am onk) with a sort of homesickness. his parents requested that he leave, to go to work in bangkok, to help the family.... from there he followed the usual route of migrant work in thailand, working at home, and eventually, migrant work here in israel, where he met me. howver, prior to that, he had had a girlfriend (non consumated btw) and felt that he would work inisrael and then go back and marry her (like some mike song of thai guy working in city to marry girl, only to find that she has married a rich farang)... but received a dear john letter while here... he took it so hard he had already sworn that he would return to thailand once he finished paying loans back, and go back to being a monk (he has a first cousin who is still a monk, and an other who was a monk for 8 years after a divorce. now happily married again...)

he often states that if something were to happen to me, then he would go back, and become a monk a gain. it is the only time he says that he has peace of mind. at the moment, howver, he is not some spritiual personality, nor is he 'religious'. but when he was a monk, he was. many thai seem to have an ability to switch between two types of behavior as 'monk' and 'non monk'... and i dont think it is silly to become a monk even for a week.

why do jewish boys do bar mizva nowadays when a boy at age thirteen is no longer expected to be an 'adult'? most boys do the whole process for the end result: $$$ and disco. ive met very few boys that do the religious part because they really want the spritiuality of 'becomeing an adult'... however, later in life they DO remember the special prayers/sermon that was read, and do remember feeling 'different'/rite of passage... and those that didnt do it, regret not doing so... especially in a society like mine where doing so is the norm.

for thais, it must be similar. maybe, taking confirmation rites in church for lyoung children is a similar experience... yes the hoohaahaa of the party situation is OTT but nowadays even birthdays for one lyear olds are OTT.

rites of passage are important not always for the person him/herself, but for the community, for later in life as a 'marking point' (before bar mitzva, after i was a monk,etc), as 'joining the community'... nowadays, when community life is very weak in most places, this is still one link to community evenif it is only for a week.

i live in a society where ritual is very important, even w/o belief in a god ... thais seem to ahve very few communal 'ritual' activities as far as 'religioun' goes compared to , say, judaism, so the few that there are, are important... ( even if it is mostly 'show' , it is, still, a community ritual that ties people to their past, and provides some sort of connection. something that may be missing in more progressive non community oriented societies...

people growing up in large cities most likely dont belong to any real community and the wat/church/ whatever and the various rites, even if superficially done, are the only link to a 'group', and this 'group' will remember u as 'one of theirs' when and if needed.... a way of becoming also, a 'member of the tribe'/club whatever.

bina

israel

[Xangsamhua]

my husband actually went in and would have preferred to stay, once he was became a monk. he was in forest areas not city, and flet 'free' from daily pressures, had some rather spritual experiences, and looks back to that time (almost a year of being am onk) with a sort of homesickness. his parents requested that he leave, to go to work in bangkok, to help the family.... from there he followed the usual route of migrant work in thailand, working at home, and eventually, migrant work here in israel, where he met me. howver, prior to that, he had had a girlfriend (non consumated btw) and felt that he would work inisrael and then go back and marry her (like some mike song of thai guy working in city to marry girl, only to find that she has married a rich farang)... but received a dear john letter while here... he took it so hard he had already sworn that he would return to thailand once he finished paying loans back, and go back to being a monk (he has a first cousin who is still a monk, and an other who was a monk for 8 years after a divorce. now happily married again...)

he often states that if something were to happen to me, then he would go back, and become a monk a gain. it is the only time he says that he has peace of mind. at the moment, howver, he is not some spritiual personality, nor is he 'religious'. but when he was a monk, he was. many thai seem to have an ability to switch between two types of behavior as 'monk' and 'non monk'... and i dont think it is silly to become a monk even for a week.

why do jewish boys do bar mizva nowadays when a boy at age thirteen is no longer expected to be an 'adult'? most boys do the whole process for the end result: $$$ and disco. ive met very few boys that do the religious part because they really want the spritiuality of 'becomeing an adult'... however, later in life they DO remember the special prayers/sermon that was read, and do remember feeling 'different'/rite of passage... and those that didnt do it, regret not doing so... especially in a society like mine where doing so is the norm.

for thais, it must be similar. maybe, taking confirmation rites in church for lyoung children is a similar experience... yes the hoohaahaa of the party situation is OTT but nowadays even birthdays for one lyear olds are OTT.

rites of passage are important not always for the person him/herself, but for the community, for later in life as a 'marking point' (before bar mitzva, after i was a monk,etc), as 'joining the community'... nowadays, when community life is very weak in most places, this is still one link to community evenif it is only for a week.

i live in a society where ritual is very important, even w/o belief in a god ... thais seem to ahve very few communal 'ritual' activities as far as 'religioun' goes compared to , say, judaism, so the few that there are, are important... ( even if it is mostly 'show' , it is, still, a community ritual that ties people to their past, and provides some sort of connection. something that may be missing in more progressive non community oriented societies...

people growing up in large cities most likely dont belong to any real community and the wat/church/ whatever and the various rites, even if superficially done, are the only link to a 'group', and this 'group' will remember u as 'one of theirs' when and if needed.... a way of becoming also, a 'member of the tribe'/club whatever.

bina

israel

A very interesting perspective, Bina. Thank you. :jap:

[Gers1873]

Bina I wont copy your whole email again but you certainly provided an interesting perspective - thanks