Urban Chinese In Thailand

[buadhai]

I wonder if anyone can recommend a book that discusses the culture of the urban Chinese in Thailand?

I've been in a relationship with one for a couple of years now and this has piqued my interest to the point where I feel the need for a outside point of view.

[steppenfaerie]

I wonder if anyone can recommend a book that discusses the culture of the urban Chinese in Thailand?

I've been in a relationship with one for a couple of years now and this has piqued my interest to the point where I feel the need for a outside point of view.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

i can't think of any books at the moment, but there is a phd thesis written by a woman named Juree Vichit-Vadakan, called "Not Too High and Not Too Low: A Comparative Study of Thai and Chinese Middle-Class Life in Bangkok, Thailand," 1979.

It might be worth looking up....

You can obtain a pdf copy online if you want, for a fee...let me know if you're interested and I can let you know how.

[buadhai]

Yes, I'm interested. Please PM the link. But, it seems kind of old. I wonder how dated it is?

[steppenfaerie]

Yes, I'm interested. Please PM the link. But, it seems kind of old. I wonder how dated it is?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

it is old, but i'm sure it would still be relevant if you want an academic perspective on the Chinese in Bangkok.

i've just checked, the link won't work if u're not a university of sydney student, but personal message me and i can email u the pdf file.

[mittheimp]

'Letters from Thailand', written by 'Botan' is an account of a chinese immigrant arriving in Bangkok in the 1940's with nothing and eventually starting a family and developing businesses on Sampeng lane - the story finishes in the 1960's. Not that current but it is a really interesting and entertaining read (the author has said it is semi based on her family). It demonstrates the cultural divide between the chinese and Thai people - and how the differences eroded over time (it has also been banned in Thailand and China in the past for supposedly disrespecting both cultures - but apparently is now considered essential reading in any Thai social studies course).

I think in a lot of cases the chinese culture has disappeared and a lot of ethnically chinese people consider themselves completely thai, this is certainly true of my wife.

[thaibebop]

'Letters from Thailand', written by 'Botan' is an account of a chinese immigrant arriving in Bangkok in the 1940's with nothing and eventually starting a family and developing businesses on Sampeng lane - the story finishes in the 1960's.  Not that current but it is a really interesting and entertaining read (the author has said it is semi based on her family).  It demonstrates the cultural divide between the chinese and Thai people - and how the differences eroded over time (it has also been banned in Thailand and China in the past for supposedly disrespecting both cultures - but apparently is now considered essential reading in any Thai social studies course).

I think in a lot of cases the chinese culture has disappeared and a lot of ethnically chinese people consider themselves completely thai, this is certainly true of my wife.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes, very much so. My wife is the same.

[steppenfaerie]

All you guys that requested the pdf file of the thesis from me, I have tried sending it but it looks like the file is too large - 21 MB.

does anyone know how to make it smaller or any other alternative we could try?

[cdnvic]

You'd need to upload it to a webpage or ftp site and give others a link to download.

cv

[buadhai]

All you guys that requested the pdf file of the thesis from me, I have tried sending it but it looks like the file is too large - 21 MB.

does anyone know how to make it smaller or any other alternative we could try?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If you do a Google search on "compress pdf" you'll find some software that will reduce the size of a PDF file. But, I suspect it won't reduce it to e-mail size.

Can you upload it to an FTP server somewhere?

[Nordlys]

I think in a lot of cases the chinese culture has disappeared and a lot of ethnically chinese people consider themselves completely thai, this is certainly true of my wife.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That is true to my Thai wife too. Whereas in other countries in SEAsia such as Malaysia, a Chinese Malaysian would have a strong ethnic identity as being a Chinese descent and would often refer to themselves as "Malaysian Chinese" when I asked of their nationality. But for Thailand maybe it has more to do with the banning of teaching/studying Chinese language in the 50's - 70's than their culture disappearing. There still are many Chinese temples in Thailand not only in Bangkok but nationwide, and many Chinese customs/tradition still remain strong in Thailand today (eg. chinese new year celebration, Kin Jae the vegetarian week, etc.). I participated in the ancestor worshipping tea ceremony on the morning of my wedding, although the wedding itself was a church wedding at catholic church (and it's interesting to note somehow most Cathoics in Bangkok seems to be Chinese Thai).

I do have an English biography of Yi Guangyan, a story of poor immigrant -turned- prominent businessman, a natural community leader in Chinatown and a philanthropist who founded the famous rescue team and NGO Po Tek Tung, Hua Jiao hospital, Hua Jiao University, etc and his struggle for anti-Japanese resistance during the Japanese occupation of his homeland and Japanese presence in Thailand. I'm not so sure if his story speaks for all Chinese immigrants to Thailand, however. And the book is written by his son so it's full of praises about his father and maybe not all the account depicted in the book is to the best of its accuracy. A friend of mine who is one of the many grandsons of Yi Guangyan gave me this book but you can have it if you want.

Edited November 26, 2005 by Nordlys

[Heng]

I think in a lot of cases the chinese culture has disappeared and a lot of ethnically chinese people consider themselves completely thai, this is certainly true of my wife.

I do have an English biography of Yi Guangyan, a story of poor immigrant -turned- prominent businessman, a natural community leader in Chinatown and a philanthropist who founded the famous rescue team and NGO Po Tek Tung, Hua Jiao hospital, Hua Jiao University...

edit: nevermind, found what I was looking for on google

Edited November 26, 2005 by Heng

[steppenfaerie]

i think there might be copyright issues in distributing the thesis, which is a problem because i'm a student and could be expelled because of it, and also because i may have to work with the author in the near future.

i'm so sorry for being a thesis-tease!

i didn't realise so many of you would be interested! if you are a student/researcher affiliated with an academic institution then you may be able to access it through this site:

wwwlib.umi.com/dissertations/search

alternatively, chulalongkorn or thammasat university libraries may hold copies of it.

again, my apologies...

[ProfessorFart]

Skinner is the boy you want.

CHINESE SOCIETY IN THAILAND: AN ANALYTICAL HISTORY.

Skinner, G. William (George William), 1925- Ithaca, N.Y. : Cornell University Press, [1957].

Will cost you a few bob though but this is the ultimate.

[buadhai]

Skinner is the boy you want.

CHINESE SOCIETY IN THAILAND: AN ANALYTICAL HISTORY.

Skinner, G. William (George William), 1925- Ithaca, N.Y. : Cornell University Press, [1957].

  

Will cost you a few bob though but this is the ultimate.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Available at Amazon for $53

If you do a search on Amazon using "Chinese Thailand" you get quite a list of available titles.

Edited November 27, 2005 by buadhai

[Johpa]

Skinner is the boy you want.

CHINESE SOCIETY IN THAILAND: AN ANALYTICAL HISTORY.

Skinner, G. William (George William), 1925- Ithaca, N.Y. : Cornell University Press, [1957].

 

Will cost you a few bob though but this is the ultimate.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Skinner was a naive academic. He argued that the Sino-Thais assimilated towards Thai culture. He may have hoodwinked a generation of Cornell Thai anthropologists (apologists one and all) but I think he got it arse backwards.

[wamberal]

My wife's parents are both the product of a Thai/Chinese marriage, which must be fairly unusual. My wife insists that she is 100% Thai, but she does have noticeable Chinese characteristics, which I recognise from considerable time spent living and working in Hong Hong.

Some years ago I did an assignment with a large Thai government-owned corporation. I became fairly close to one of the Thai guys, who claimed that the Thais tried to discriminate against the ethnic Chinese wherever possible.

One of the Chinese guys told me that they (the Chinese) always encouraged one of their kids to marry into a well-connected Thai family, for reasons of security.

[Heng]

Skinner is the boy you want.

CHINESE SOCIETY IN THAILAND: AN ANALYTICAL HISTORY.

Skinner, G. William (George William), 1925- Ithaca, N.Y. : Cornell University Press, [1957].

  

Will cost you a few bob though but this is the ultimate.

Skinner was a naive academic. He argued that the Sino-Thais assimilated towards Thai culture. He may have hoodwinked a generation of Cornell Thai anthropologists (apologists one and all) but I think he got it arse backwards.

Yeah, one has to get up earlier than that to wink ol' Johpa (godmother?).

[Heng]

Some years ago I did an assignment with a large Thai government-owned corporation.  I became fairly close to one of the Thai guys, who claimed that the Thais tried to discriminate against the ethnic Chinese wherever possible.

True. You still run into this from time to time. It's not really a big deal because the Thai Chinese pretty much own the private sector so it typically balances out in our favor. Also, you know the old adage that everyone has their price? Time and again, ethnic Thais have proven that they have a low selling price, so it's usually paper tiger type discrimination.

"For this, I'll give you--"

"Sold!"

"Only Thais can own land."

"Okay, how much does it cost to be Thai?"

"Several hundred Baht."

"Easy enough."

One of the Chinese guys told me that they (the Chinese) always encouraged one of their kids to marry into a well-connected Thai family, for reasons of security.

True in the past, but pretty much irrelevant now as the old "pudee" Thai no longer run the show, at least none of the signicant ones anyway. Most (not all of course) Thai Chinese weddings nowdays are between Thai Chinese. That said though, there are millions of Thais of Thai Chinese descent that do not belong to Thai Chinese families. Other than looking Chinese, they can't speak any Chinese dialect, are content with being employed by others just like ethnic Thais, don't have any ancestors other than their parents to take as an example or pay their respects to, etc... and for all purposes are Thai.

Edited November 27, 2005 by Heng

[Ijustwannateach]

Unlike you, of course.

[Heng]

[GoodHeart]

Skinner is the boy you want.

CHINESE SOCIETY IN THAILAND: AN ANALYTICAL HISTORY.

Skinner, G. William (George William), 1925- Ithaca, N.Y. : Cornell University Press, [1957].

Will cost you a few bob though but this is the ultimate.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Skinner was a naive academic. He argued that the Sino-Thais assimilated towards Thai culture. He may have hoodwinked a generation of Cornell Thai anthropologists (apologists one and all) but I think he got it arse backwards.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Maybe naive he was, but whatever he was; he was published. You can postulate you own theories on the academics as you see fit, but until you publish [with a body of research backing you up] you aren't part of the conversation, really. And certainly not part of the conventional wisdoms' moving on from his slant.

[ProfessorFart]

Indeed Goodheart. Skinner has been criticised by many yet his work is still the only comprehensive work around on the Chinese in Thailand.

I'll also put in a shout for 'Letter from Thailand' although the translation is a little off and often unfairly criticised.

The novel, which takes the form of letters written to his mother by a Chinese immigrant to Bangkok at the end of the Second World War, is more of a collection of time capsules spanning a 20 year period than a fluid story. The letters highlight the cultural clashes between the Thais and the Chinese during this period as well as follow the life of the narrator and offer the reader a valuable insight into the life of a Chinese immigrant during this time.

[Johpa]

Maybe naive he was, but whatever he was; he was published. You can postulate you own theories on the academics as you see fit, but until you publish [with a body of research backing you up] you aren't part of the conversation, really. And certainly not part of the conventional wisdoms' moving on from his slant.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

For better or worse I am part of the conversation here, really I am. Although I am the first to admit that college students are not advised to quote anything in this or any other message board in their research papers. In fact I don't think college students should be allowed to quote anything off the Internet, but that is another subject.

I have read most of the published literature in English regarding Thai culture including tomes ranging from Coedes to Skinner to Geddes to Tambiah (yea, I actually read Tambiah from cover to cover) to Pasuk and just about everyone in between. I have spent far more time living in rural Thai villages than Hanks or Keyes. And over that time I have formed opinions. And sometimes those opinions jive with the mainstream academics and sometimes I disagree with their conclusions.

My experience in the vast rural areas is that the Chinese are not perceived to have assimilated towards Thai culture. My experience is that the locals see Sino-Thais as being distinct and are marked so as cek or cin. That is not to say that some Sino-Thais have not married into Thai families and moved into the wife's home, the traditional Thai cultural movement of matrilocality where the husband moves into the wife's family's compound. I would consider such moves to be assimilation. But the majority of Sino-Thais in Bangkok do not assimilate as Skinner describes and the ethnic Thais I know maintain a distinction between themselves and the Sino-Thais. I would argue that Bangkok culture has assimilated towards more of an East Asian culture. How else do you explain the prevalence of wearing dark sport coats and neck ties in a hot tropical Southeast Asian environment? I think that Skinner's fellow Cornellian, Keyes, once edited an anthology of works that argued that peoples tend to assimilate towards the culture of the elite and not the other way around. Skinner is well respected but no Saint.

Your mileage may vary. Perhaps you would care to argue that Bangkok is more Thai than it is Chinese. Heck, even published academics are allowed to disagree with infantile tirades published in the trade journals, but all opinions are welcome here apart from your opinion that would censure my opinion over trivialities.

[meom]

My experience in the vast rural areas is that the Chinese are not perceived to have assimilated towards Thai culture.

It is my understanding that they also have not assimilated to "Chinese" culture.

Maybe I'm wrong here but aren't the majority of thai-chinese Teochiu who were/are seen as renegades in mainland China?

[Johpa]

It is my understanding that they also have not assimilated to "Chinese" culture.

Maybe I'm wrong here but aren't the majority of thai-chinese Teochiu who were/are seen as renegades in mainland China?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Tei Chiu are very much Chinese. They do have a reputation as being tough as nails coming from a poor mountainous coastal (Swatao) area of China with little arable land hugging a narrow coastline. Overcrowding led to migrations overseas and dominating Chinese labor in Thailand. They were also known to control the opium trade in Shanghai.