Marriage Non-O With "Temporary" Teacher'S License / Waiver?

[LecheHombre]

Been a long-time lurker here, but this is the first time I've made an account and had a question to post. I've tried to search for answers to my particular issue here, but haven't had luck -- sorry if I missed it. And sorry in advance for a very long post (TL;DR?).

Anyway, here's my info and question:

I am an American citizen (male), 30 years old. I have been living and teaching in Thailand since May 2007, so coming up on 5 years. I spent the first 3 years at a school teaching Anuban level but then changed jobs to a government Matayom (big change), where I have been working happily for nearly 2 years now. I have a Bachelor's Degree in Computer Science, no TEFL, and am currently here on a work-based Non-B visa granted via a temporary Teacher's License (waiver, whatever you want to call the 2 year thing). The immigration office for my area is Nan, I suppose that factors into things since there is never a universal hard and fast rule for anything here!

I got married to a Thai citizen 2 years ago. She is working on her Master's degree (nearly finished), and otherwise unemployed for the time being -- I mention that to inform that she can't contribute to combined monthly income.

The situation I have is this:

I was talking with the paperwork expert at my school recently, and she informed me that my temporary Teacher's Licence will be expiring at the end of my current contract (in May, so I do have some time). They want me continue teaching there (at least, they say they do), but she said that I could not get an additional temporary Teacher's License unless I were to change schools (which again, they say they don't want me to do, and I would prefer to stay with my current school). She said that the workaround is to change my visa to a Marriage Non-O instead of my current Work Non-B, which wouldn't require me to have a Teacher's License.

I tend to think there are problems with several parts of that. The school that I am in doesn't have a large number of foreign teachers, and they have a pretty high turnover rate among those they do have (not unusually high for a Thai government school or anything, just standard high turnover) so they don't have much experience with handling this sort of issue -- they mean well but I don't think they really understand the process (fair enough, nobody really does!). Next, from what I can tell changing schools wouldn't result in a "magic bullet" guaranteed fresh new 2-year temporary TL -- is that correct? Finally, I expect that if I were to change to a Marriage Non-O visa, it is true that the "required" paperwork at the immigration office wouldn't necessarily include a Teacher's License, but given that I would need to show 40,000 baht per month income, which would probably involve showing a school contract, which would require work permit, etc. etc. they would put 2 and 2 together and ask for the license. True?

Some additional complications:

I am on my second temporary Teacher's License. I had worked in Thailand for 2 years before that became an issue, so the first license applied only to my last year of employment at the first school I taught in. When I moved to my current school, I understand that they had to get me a new one even though it hadn't actually expired since I changed schools. I have read that there are frequent issues with getting a third "temporary" TL, or I'd just think that I could keep that rolling every two years. Is that accurate, or at least reasonably accurate since this might be a 10-people-10-answers kind of thing?

My salary at the school is 31,000 baht, which doesn't fulfill the 40,000 baht per month income requirement for a marriage visa. However, I do additional tutoring on evenings and weekends so that my monthly income *is* reliably above 40,000 baht. "Proving" that via paperwork/bank statements might be problematic though, depending on how rigorously you define 'proving'. I have two bank accounts and could fairly easily deposit my income from various sources into account A, and then transfer a consistent amount of >=40,000 baht from A to B every month and show my ledger for account B at immigration if that would be suitable/kosher.

I don't have >400,000 baht in a Thai bank account, so I don't qualify for that alternate route (if that is even still valid?). I do have funds in the US that could cover that if I were to sell/transfer some things, but I would prefer to keep that money gaining real interest there rather than sitting in a bank account here doing nothing.

I did the Thai Culture Course roughly 3 years ago when all of this was starting to crop up, and have my certificate for that. I have not taken any TCT full-on Teacher's License tests in the meantime, and have no desire to do so whatsoever but I guess if that was the only option I'd at least consider it. I have certificates from conventional dog and pony show type stuff, conferences, competitions, etc. if that holds any sway in showing "forward progress" towards a License (doubtful).

I do take this teaching stuff fairly seriously (not in the negative Thai connotation of serious=upset, though) and try to do a good job, but I have no formal background or training in education. I've got my ~5 years of experience here (pales in comparison to many) and an honest desire to do the job to the best of my ability. I figure that should be enough -- if Thailand requires more than that, so be it, but I fear they will have a major shortage of qualified (even relatively speaking) foreign teachers with that agenda...

OK, I think that covers any relevant info that I can think of. Am I up a creek without a paddle? I think that the Marriage visa is my best option, but I see potential for a lot of pitfalls there. Any advice as to my best general course of action or specifics? Sorry for the very longwinded post, I just didn't want to leave out anything that might have an impact. Any advice or suggestions is much appreciated!

[TerryLH]

"I mention that to inform that she can't contribute to combined monthly income."

That’s irrelevant. Immigration hasn’t accepted combined income for several years.

The way the income qualification works is through showing that you’ve filed taxes for the amount you say you earned. Not through deposits.

Along with the tax forms they will also want to see a WP.

I think it will be the Labor Office who might want to see a TL when you apply for a WP.

No skating on WP because of an O based on marriage.

You might need to get a multiple entry visa from Laos or Malaysia. With that you’d get 90 days at a time, for up to 15 months if you work the border runs right.

You won’t be able to extend for marriage until you meet the financial requirement of money in the bank or income.

[Mario2008]

An extesnion based on marriage requires an income of 40,000 a month OR 400,000 in the bank for at least two month. It must be your income and income from within Thailand is shown with tax-papers. Income from abroad with a l;etter from your embassy.

As has been said, with an exytension of stay based on marriage, you migth still need a TL to get a work permit from labour.

Did you do the cultural course? If you did, it migth be enough base to give you a third waiver. But that question is better asked in the teaching section:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/forum/46-teaching-in-thailand-forum/

[LecheHombre]

The way the income qualification works is through showing that you’ve filed taxes for the amount you say you earned. Not through deposits.

Along with the tax forms they will also want to see a WP.

OK, that is good info, thanks. My income via the school is 31,000 baht and would show up on tax documentation, but as you might imagine a lot of the private tutoring that I do, etc. doesn't leave that sort of paper trail. I have asked before if I need to "report" that income to the tax office and been told no, but I imagine that if there were some mechanism for doing so it would help here. Also, I have heard that for Americans, we can go to the US Consulate and get some sort of paperwork that says states that we are earning >=40,000 baht per month, based primarily on solemnly swearing that is true. That would be of assistance to Americans who have their income outside Thailand or through a mixture, or in cases like mine. Is that correct?

I think it will be the Labor Office who might want to see a TL when you apply for a WP.

No skating on WP because of an O based on marriage.

Showing a WP is no problem at all, I have always had that done properly while working here. My local Labor Office is in general much easier to get along with than Immigration (first Chiang Mai and now Nan for me) in my experience. The Labor Office has told me that they don't need to see a Teacher's License to issue a WP. I don't know if that is technically correct by the book or not, but it has been consistently applied so it is at least de-facto correct for my Labor Office.

You won’t be able to extend for marriage until you meet the financial requirement of money in the bank or income.

Or apply for one period, correct? I am currently on a Non-B (work). If changing to a Marriage Non-O really does remove a Teacher's License from the list of required paperwork at Nan Immigration, then I am pretty confident that I can get the Marriage Visa handled through either 40,000 baht income OR 400,000 baht bank balance if it comes down to that being necessary. I am just concerned that I'll go through the hoops of changing from a Non-B to a Non-O, and then run into the same problem of being asked for a Teacher's License at Nan. Maybe there isn't a definite sure answer there? If that is the case what's my best bet?

[LecheHombre]

An extesnion based on marriage requires an income of 40,000 a month OR 400,000 in the bank for at least two month. It must be your income and income from within Thailand is shown with tax-papers. Income from abroad with a l;etter from your embassy.

As has been said, with an exytension of stay based on marriage, you migth still need a TL to get a work permit from labour.

Did you do the cultural course? If you did, it migth be enough base to give you a third waiver. But that question is better asked in the teaching section:

http://www.thaivisa....thailand-forum/

I did do the culture course, but that was 3 years ago (before my current temporary T.L.) so maybe bringing it up again doesn't do anything to show "forward progress"? Is that considered by the TCT?

I am relatively confident that I can continue to get a Work Permit from my local office without a Teacher's License. Perhaps my confidence that that will work trumps the "maybe" that the TCT would grant a 3rd TTL based on culture course?

What does getting a letter from the US Embassy / Consulate entail? I've heard that at the Consulate, Americans don't need to show paperwork at all, just swear that our income is above that threshold, and we get the document? I realize that that sounds very shifty -- I believe that I honestly do qualify based on the 40,000 baht per month income requirement, but I don't know how much evidence to *prove* that I might be asked to provide.

Thanks much for the replies!

[CharlieH]

The Non O has nothing to do with your job, they need income or capital proof and couldnt careless what work you do or whether you have a work permit, it has nothing to do with the application.You are confusing and blurring the lines between two totally different issues. Your Non O is one and the work permit/licence is another.

As for the Embassy letter,because of the method of swearing an no evidence it has recently been reported that some immigration offices may ask you to support your letter with statements from the bank.

[Mario2008]

A US citizen makes a sworn statement in fron of a consular officer. Making a false statement is a federal crime and you only make a statement about your income outside Thailand. So stating that you earn more than 40,000 a month based on illegally working in Thailand is not going to cut it. You would need a work permit and tax documents for your private tutoring.

[LecheHombre]

A US citizen makes a sworn statement in fron of a consular officer. Making a false statement is a federal crime and you only make a statement about your income outside Thailand. So stating that you earn more than 40,000 a month based on illegally working in Thailand is not going to cut it. You would need a work permit and tax documents for your private tutoring.

"Illegally working in Thailand" is a bit of a loaded statement perhaps? I do understand where you are coming from though. I have a work permit and always have had while working here, and I want and try to do things by the book -- there just doesn't seem to be a book in many cases, and when there is one there are about 20 contradictory versions of it. I don't mean to get defensive, I'm just saying that I am trying to do this the right way, or as close to right as possible!

Should I inquire at the Labor Office about getting a second Work Permit for the private tutoring? How would I go about reporting that income for tax purposes? I've asked about that even at the local tax office and they waved me off saying "mai pen lai".

Sorry to keep extending the questions, and I do appreciate your assistance and expertise. I know this is getting more into being about Teaching rather than Visas etc. - I can move / repost there if that would be best.

I suppose that I should touch briefly on why I don't want to take the tests for the full-on T.L. Three years ago or so when this became an issue, I had several friends and colleagues who quit teaching jobs and moved to Bangkok in order to take the M.Ed. type courses that were popping up and/or do other things in an effort to tow the line. They generally report back that whatever they were pursuing has been made irrelevant by the constantly shifting rules. I've also read a lot of horror stories about the TCT's tests for the Teacher's License being poorly written, full of questions that are impossible to answer correctly, etc. (just like a lot of the standardized tests I am sure we all see here) and have an incredibly high fail rate for those that sit the tests, even among pretty qualified people. I must admit that I have basically considered those tests to be a scam to get a load of people to plunk down their fees, and then arbitrarily doling out licenses based more on luck than actually proving that one is qualified. Perhaps I need to reconsider that and face that if I want to go by the book, I need to take those tests?

[digitalchromakey]

If you are applying for an extension of Permission to Stay based on Marriage to a Thai using income from Thai employment, then Immigration will want to see a copy of your WP, various company papers from the school along with your annual PND 91 Tax return and last month's PND 1 (monthly salary withholding tax statement).

There is nothing to stop you from going to your local tax department and offering to pay the extra tax on income to make your annual salary up to 480,000 i.e 40,000 pcm. It's that time of year to file your annual tax return, so at least you can set up a valid PND 91 for the coming year.

In the perect world you would also have PND 1 forms filled out for the private tuition fees you have received.

One potential problem I can see though is if you are asked as to the source of your extra income, as I don't know if your WP covers the extra private tuition work you do.

[LecheHombre]

The Non O has nothing to do with your job, they need income or capital proof and couldnt careless what work you do or whether you have a work permit, it has nothing to do with the application.You are confusing and blurring the lines between two totally different issues. Your Non O is one and the work permit/licence is another.

As for the Embassy letter,because of the method of swearing an no evidence it has recently been reported that some immigration offices may ask you to support your letter with statements from the bank.

I have been sort of blurring the two together, because I had heard the anecdotes of people having immigration ask them for bank statements etc. I am starting to think that perhaps my best course of action is to transfer funds here so that I qualify for the Non-O based on bank balance, which removes any necessity/justification for immigration to ask for financial documentation other than the bank statement showing >=400,000 baht. Your advice to consider these two issues completely separately is quite helpful, thank you.

If you are applying for an extension of Permission to Stay based on Marriage to a Thai using income from Thai employment, then Immigration will want to see a copy of your WP, various company papers from the school along with your annual PND 91 Tax return and last month's PND 1 (monthly salary withholding tax statement).

There is nothing to stop you from going to your local tax department and offering to pay the extra tax on income to make your annual salary up to 480,000 i.e 40,000 pcm. It's that time of year to file your annual tax return, so at least you can set up a valid PND 91 for the coming year.

In the perect world you would also have PND 1 forms filled out for the private tuition fees you have received.

One potential problem I can see though is if you are asked as to the source of your extra income, as I don't know if your WP covers the extra private tuition work you do.

This is also quite helpful, and further encourages me to just opt for the 400,000 baht bank balance rather than showing income (even though I believe I technically would qualify that way).

Thanks for all the replies, much appreciated to everyone.

[NanLaew]

Athough not in the teaching business, my employer advised me last year that they could not obtain a WP for me whilst on a pre-existing Non-O 'marriage' visa due to some bureaucratic changes. I had to obtain a new Non-B 'work' visa before they could proceed. Not sure if that's a 'global' requirement but apparently up until then, either a Non-O or Non-B was adequate for getting a WP. Maybe it's because my Non-O was originally issued on the grounds of having a Thai spouse that it could not be used for work whereas a new Non-O acquired purely for work will have no WP issues.

[digitalchromakey]

Athough not in the teaching business, my employer advised me last year that they could not obtain a WP for me whilst on a pre-existing Non-O 'marriage' visa due to some bureaucratic changes. I had to obtain a new Non-B 'work' visa before they could proceed. Not sure if that's a 'global' requirement but apparently up until then, either a Non-O or Non-B was adequate for getting a WP. Maybe it's because my Non-O was originally issued on the grounds of having a Thai spouse that it could not be used for work whereas a new Non-O acquired purely for work will have no WP issues.

Teminology can be confusing, when you talk about a 'new Non O' acquired purely for work are you talking about a current visa obtained outside of Thailand/entry stamp, or are you referring to an 'Extension of Permission to Stay' based on marriage to a Thai obtained at Immigration within Thailand?

Certainly in my area (Phuket) you can extend permission to stay for one year at a time based on Marriage to a Thai showing income or 400k in the bank (Thai Poilice Order 777/2.18) based on an orginal non B entry to Thailand; this certainly does not cause problems with subsequent extensions or renewing Work Permits per se.

[NanLaew]

Athough not in the teaching business, my employer advised me last year that they could not obtain a WP for me whilst on a pre-existing Non-O 'marriage' visa due to some bureaucratic changes. I had to obtain a new Non-B 'work' visa before they could proceed. Not sure if that's a 'global' requirement but apparently up until then, either a Non-O or Non-B was adequate for getting a WP. Maybe it's because my Non-O was originally issued on the grounds of having a Thai spouse that it could not be used for work whereas a new Non-O acquired purely for work will have no WP issues.

Teminology can be confusing, when you talk about a 'new Non O' acquired purely for work are you talking about a current visa obtained outside of Thailand/entry stamp, or are you referring to an 'Extension of Permission to Stay' based on marriage to a Thai obtained at Immigration within Thailand?

Certainly in my area (Phuket) you can extend permission to stay for one year at a time based on Marriage to a Thai showing income or 400k in the bank (Thai Poilice Order 777/2.18) based on an orginal non B entry to Thailand; this certainly does not cause problems with subsequent extensions or renewing Work Permits per se.

No confused terminology; I never mentioned extension as I am talking about a 1-year multi-entry Non-O that was acquired less than 6 months earlier in KL based on the requirements of having a Thai spouse. My Bangkok employer said that this could not be used in support of a WP. I subsequently sent my other passport to the UK for a 1-year multi-entry Non-B and they used that.

As far as I am aware, a Non-O and a Non-B enable the issuing of a WP. However, it may be the case that once a Non-O has been issued categorically as a 'spouse' visa, then it may be precluded from supporting a WP. Certainly was in my case, with one employer in Bangkok in June 2011.

BTW, I have just filed for the 1-year extension on the Non-O mentioned above based on having a Thai spouse in Udon without any issues apart from the tome of paperwork involved. I see why they are always trying to push the 'retirement extension' option instead!