The Loss Of Status

[Maigo6]

This thread can go on forever,

Pudgi, no disrespect from me mate, you have a good writing style and are obviously an intelligent well educated guy, and if you can find working 7 days a week 12 hours a day satisfying, then fair play to you. At least you are trying to intigrate into Thai society, instead of constantly bashing it like many other farangs.

That being said, I still think you are full of it!

[Pudgimelon]

That being said, I still think you are full of it! 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't think I've ever claimed I wasn't.

[Maigo6]

That being said, I still think you are full of it!  

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't think I've ever claimed I wasn't.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Haha.....nice one.

This thread attracted me cos it was like the threads we used to get a couple of years ago, when TV wasn't so heavily moderated, ( Doc PP had his hands full then ) , but it was good clean fun.

Alas most of the old timers are now banned or have lives.

Thanks anyway Pudgi for your thread, I guess you knew all along that you was gonna get flamed, you are by far one of the best educated and articulate trolls I have ever encountered.

[Pudgimelon]

I now think I understand Pugimelon's assertions better in the last few messages and see that the class topic is a tangent.  Rather, I disagree with his assertion because of a few more simple reasons...

First is that he essentially calls for farangs to form up into a white ethnicity for collective power. In my politics, the last thing I want to do is form up on racial lines and try lose my identity to some collective.  I demand to be treated as an individual

Second, ... it is a biased memory that creates these romantic heroes.

I think the short-term question of how we can be good citizens has already been beaten to death here, e.g. how to make a difference on a human scale in the short term.  In the longer term, I think the only viable approach is to try to erase (or at least weaken) the significance of race and culture by innoculation; continued exposure of farangs will eventually make our presence less alien to the Thai culture, and people will go back to evaluating each other on a more individual basis.

To think we can intentionally raise or lower the status of "all white people" seems as foolish as thinking we can control the weather 20 years hence.  Sure, our actions have consequences, but they are too complex to predict and harness.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

An excellent post. You raise some good objections and I have to concede you are correct on many counts. However, just a few points I'd like to respond to:

You're right about a long-term exposure to farang reducing our "alienness". Twenty years ago if I had walked into Nonthaburi or BangKapi people would have dropped what they were doing and openly stared. Now they only do that occassionally .

You're forgetting, though, that farang have been in this country for several hundred years. It's only since the Vietnam war and the resultant sex-tourism industry that regular Thai people have been exposed to regular farang. Before that, farang traders were on the same footing as princes and generals and so they were the exclusive province of high-society.

In that regard, the "esteem" of our ethnic group has suffered quite a bit since the Americans turned Pattaya into an R&R brothel during the Vietnam War.

Also, I didn't "call for farang to form up along white racial lines". I merely reported the fact that we ARE lumped into one racial group by Thais, like it or not, and that we need to acknowledge this fact and stop squabbling amongst ourselves. Old nationalistic differences may have been important to us back home, but here they are a hinderance to the collective prosperity of our group.

[Maigo6]

I merely reported the fact that we ARE lumped into one racial group by Thais

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You mean like the Thais are lumped into one racial group by farangs ?

Whatever next.

[Incalclickable]

I now think I understand Pugimelon's assertions better in the last few messages and see that the class topic is a tangent.  Rather, I disagree with his assertion because of a few more simple reasons...

First is that he essentially calls for farangs to form up into a white ethnicity for collective power. In my politics, the last thing I want to do is form up on racial lines and try lose my identity to some collective.  I demand to be treated as an individual, and I am not interested in trying to carry along others just because they happen to share my skin color or accent; I wouldn't feel right doing that in the US and I don't feel right doing that here either. On a more practical note, I don't think you can change the embarassing behavior of some farang anymore than you can change the embarassing behavior of some of my countrymen (or a respectable Thai can change the embarrasing behavior of some of his countrymen).  It's not that anyone is arguing that farang shouldn't try to be good people... we just acknowledge that there is more than one definition of good, and I think many of us are rejecting the notion that there is (or should be) a unified farang goal or movement.

Second, I think this notion of immigrants "siezing" or "squandering" an opportunity is distorted by a romantic view of the past.  Chinese immigrants to Thailand did not all become successful and welcomed Thai citizens in their own lifetimes.  The toil of generations is ignored, as is the likely racial tensions that occurred between those immigrants and the Thai populace. Time is the great equalizer in these cases of cultural mixing. Likewise, as I tried to point out before, the many waves of immigrants to the US did not universally enjoy success nor are they universally revered in later generations.  E.g. for every captain of the meat-packing industry in the US mid-west, there are countless nameless immigrant ancestors who left their descendents on equal footing with the rest of the workers just barely making a living... it is a biased memory that creates these romantic heroes.

I think the determinable future is that farangs will be outsiders in Thailand. Our offspring may or may not be treated as Thais, depending on how well they assimilate the Thai culture versus their farang cultural inheritence. hel_l, my wife who was born and raised a Thai is no longer completely integrated, because she has been "infected" with western thinking from her husband and her overseas schooling. People at work try to remind her to be patient with the Thai way, but they also depend on her to be bold where they would not dare. Unfortunately, our offspring will also be categorized much more by their appearance than they would in many western countries where racial mixing is more complex and people really are more "color blind."  I think this will be defused when the farang bloodlines are diluted to hide their "farangness" or when there are so many different mixtures present that people stop paying attention.

I think the short-term question of how we can be good citizens has already been beaten to death here, e.g. how to make a difference on a human scale in the short term.  In the longer term, I think the only viable approach is to try to erase (or at least weaken) the significance of race and culture by innoculation; continued exposure of farangs will eventually make our presence less alien to the Thai culture, and people will go back to evaluating each other on a more individual basis.

To think we can intentionally raise or lower the status of "all white people" seems as foolish as thinking we can control the weather 20 years hence.  Sure, our actions have consequences, but they are too complex to predict and harness.

By the way, at risk of being off topic, the comments above about Thai vs. US vs. UK and Western European culture seem a bit off to me.  The US definitely does not accept class distinctions more readily than the UK, from what little I know of it. The main "status" thing you can fault the US with is vulgar materialism and consumption.  People flaunt money, but class has little to do with it.    This, I think, is due to the frontier history where many (most?) of the wealthy are the "new rich".  The US is actually very much a place of individualism and meritocracy, though people can obviously argue over who defines merit, etc.  I remember hearing statistics that most millionaires in the US are fleeting one-generation affairs where a "blue collar" person makes good and then has kids who squander it all away, leaving their kids back where the grandparents started. Wealth is not so institutional there.This is the antithesis of class-based privelege, and this clash is what distracted me in my earlier post on the topic.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Could you expand on that a bit?

[Mighty Mouse]

ObladiOblada is Pudgimelons other nickname.   

Have you noted that there has been no response from him on this matter.

I wonder what the Thai Deputy Prime Minister would think if he knew how deceptive the OP really is, as well as all those other government officials whose children he teaches...not to mention the movie starlettes, right down to the children themselves.

I wonder what his socialite wife would say. Is she also being conned by him, the same why he is trying to con us?

Is this how he uses the "opportunities" that Thailand offers?

To support his own argument through the sneaky use of his own alias may well be a relatively minor matter, but it completely destroys any credibility he may once have had.

[meemiathai]

Personally, I like to give people the benefit of the doubt when I first meet them.  I'm not Thai and I don't buy into their way of thinking about people.  My comments about the "assumptions" that people make are not an endorsement of those assumptions, I'm merely reporting the fact that they do exist.

When are you going to see the forest, individual trees and everything else as part of a whole?  The Thais certainly look at us that way, and like it or not, THEY do make assumptions about us based on the actions of each individual in that whole.

I don't understand. Are you trying to say the Thais are just a bunch of stupid fools who aren't capable of understanding that each individual regardless of whatever race is different? Like every farang is the same farang Tom that they saw in Patpong? Is that a compliment to the Thais or what?

I'm afraid my experience is a bit different. Most Thais I've met were able to interact with me to find out what they think of me, whether good or bad, whether they like me or not. The remaining minority who refuse to do so are really none of my business.

When a large minority of that group spends most of its time "holiday making" (even when they are semi-permanent residents), then that reflects poorly on the whole.

I think that is almost regarded as "racism".

I'm not making a personal value judgment or assumption when I say that, rather I'm just report the FACT that it DOES happen to us.  Many Thais aren't going to look at a farang and say, "Oh, he's atypical or he's just a partying vacationer", they're just going to look at that farang and say, "He's a farang, and that's how THEY behave."

If this is true about the Thais' way of thinking, isn't it that THEY should be the one to be educated?

I agree that some farangs' behaviour should be frowned on. But to what extent should one be allowed to behave?

My opinion is as long as they are not hurting anyone. Everyone is entitled to do what they like.

Message ends.

[ObladiOblada]

not so sherlock. Shall we stay on topic now?

[ray23]

Even if he is a snob (which he may or may not be, I don't like making assumptions about people I've never met), I still agree with the statements made in the original post. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Miss Kitty it is refreshing to see a Thia womans point of view thank you.

In one post spoke of outragoues behavior of some farrnags, not doubt that what you say is true.

This is why I see it a a problem that has no cure unless the Thai government really stop all the Sex Tourist from coming here and I really doubt that they will or really want to, to much money involved. You see when these guys come here they do it to escape the real world. I doubt very seriously that they behave the same way at home. They could care less what Thai's think that is not thier peer groups. For those of us who live here in may cases they are our peer group.

Truth is these guys will never know Thailand as we do, thier loss.

All the bars set up for the farrang to spend his money here on vacation creates a lot of money for a very few. But money is power and power is respected here.

The real frustrating thing is Thai's do frequent sex places there are more here for Thai's then farrangs. speaking of Udon about 20 places with girls from Laos So I would say that what we see with this activities is not just a farrang thing. But the Thai's do live here full time and are amongst thier peers, so they don't flaunt it.

Some things are never spoken of here but accepted.

I understand your thoughts but do you think the bar girls don't want these guys to not come and spend huge amounts of money. My favorite Issan tale is the girl who goes to Bangkok comes back dripping gold and giving money to Momma Pappa money. Of course now she working in food stall and making a 100K month.

They know what is really going on, it is what it is, I doubt that aspect is going to change.

I feel for you and my wife and the assumptions of being seen with your husband, that is a prejudice that has nothing to do with what you do, or my wife does. As long as the other aspect exists, we can only influence the attitudes of those around us.

[Noel]

Let’s just cut to the chase here shall we Gents?

Pudgi’s opening post wasn’t talking about STATUS as anyone with half a brain could recognize. He was talking about Farang conduct, respect and overall image in Thailand as it reflects on us all. And about what we might do with the advantage of carte blanche respect initially given by our Thai hosts to everyone who gets off the plane.

He wasn’t including every Farang or anyone treating others and self with respect.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If the OP was not talking about 'STATUS', then what an unfortunate choice of title for the topic.

The very premise 'of carte blanche respect initially given by our Thai hosts to everyone who gets off the plane.' is a nonsense as emphasised by the totally conflicting statement: 'He wasn’t including every Farang or anyone treating others and self with respect.'

Selective 'carte blanche'?

[britmaveric]

Thai men are a bit more discreet in their activities. 

and a Thai man doesn't:

- give long, sloppy french-kisses while onlookers stare in shock

- running his hand up and down his lady's bum (which happens to be at eye level for seated passengers on the skytrain)

- stick his face in his woman's cleavage and shakes his head in it while making funny bubbly noises (true story!)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeah that is a bit much PDA. I don't see problem w/snogs in public - if its kept within reason. However fondling/groping is a bit much - prefer that sort of behaviour be restricted to private because its makes most people feel queasy or for some envious.

[britmaveric]

ObladiOblada is Pudgimelons other nickname.   

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

We can tell these things. Both IPs and cookies give it away. The choice for mods is how long to wait for the offender to admit to it and get off easy, or do you just ban both of them?

cv

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeah similar writing style gave it away ages ago - wondering when my thoughts would be realized out loud.

[ace]

Great topic Pudgi, totally disagree with you, but thanks for helping me pass 1 particularly boring hour at work!

Regarding the work you do:" but I still work 7 days a week, often up to 12 or 15 hours a day.", well from my brief time at ECC some years ago I think those are standard hours you need to do to make enough to eat

Cheers,

Ace

[solo siam]

I'm not sure a Thai girl with a Farang bloke is automatically seen as punter/puntee here in Thailand.

Surely its more that if there is a big difference in looks and/or age, then people might make that assumption.

[britmaveric]

Great topic Pudgi, totally disagree with you, but thanks for helping me pass 1 particularly boring hour at work!

Regarding the work you do:" but I still work 7 days a week, often up to 12 or 15 hours a day.", well from my brief time at ECC some years ago I think those are standard hours you need to do to make enough to eat 

Cheers,

Ace

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ace - I agree Pudgi is an entertaining yank - TV's version of Walter Mitty!

[apdare]

I'm not sure a Thai girl with a Farang bloke is automatically seen as punter/puntee here in Thailand.

Surely its more that if there is a big difference in looks and/or age, then people might make that assumption.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

From my experience, the automatic assumption is that of punter/puntee.

My experience may be clouded by the fact that most of this comes from time spent near Pattaya and Bangkok.

Not that I have really noticed this, but it is what my girlfriend has said to me.

Andrew

[wilko]

Great topic Pudgi, totally disagree with you, but thanks for helping me pass 1 particularly boring hour at work!

Regarding the work you do:" but I still work 7 days a week, often up to 12 or 15 hours a day.", well from my brief time at ECC some years ago I think those are standard hours you need to do to make enough to eat 

Cheers,

Ace

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ace - I agree Pudgi is an entertaining yank - TV's version of Walter Mitty!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

yeah...look forward to your next heap of wombats doos

[OxfordWill]

Because of your relatively narrow social circle and your snobbish attitudes to those of lesser wealth and opportunity than yourself, your wife and

[...]

in Dairy Queen or Soi Nana and came from a dusty village in Isaan). 

But don't you see how you are guilty of what you accuse him of? Your experiences have come down on the side of what you see to be 'normal' Thais (in your own words, those from a 'dusty village in Isaan') but of course, Isaan makes up only a percentage of 'normality' when it comes to Thai people. If his attitudes are snobbishly narrow then surely yours must be whatever-the-opposite-of-snobbish-is-ly narrow also!

I think you need to take the spirit of the OP rather than the letter - i.e. that we are given opportunities in this country based only on where we come from (i.e., try having such a great time if you are from Arabia and of the same relative financial situation) and that they should be respected/appreciated not squandered/put at risk for all by some.

[Pudgimelon]

Because of your relatively narrow social circle and your snobbish attitudes to those of lesser wealth and opportunity than yourself, your wife and

[...]

in Dairy Queen or Soi Nana and came from a dusty village in Isaan). 

But don't you see how you are guilty of what you accuse him of? Your experiences have come down on the side of what you see to be 'normal' Thais (in your own words, those from a 'dusty village in Isaan') but of course, Isaan makes up only a percentage of 'normality' when it comes to Thai people. If his attitudes are snobbishly narrow then surely yours must be whatever-the-opposite-of-snobbish-is-ly narrow also!

I think you need to take the spirit of the OP rather than the letter - i.e. that we are given opportunities in this country based only on where we come from (i.e., try having such a great time if you are from Arabia and of the same relative financial situation) and that they should be respected/appreciated not squandered/put at risk for all by some.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Bingo. I've been trying to point that out myself as well. Many of the criticisms hurled at me in this thread have been based on assumptions that are mirror images of the kinds of assumptions I'm accused of making.

I never meant to besmirch the "quality" of any girl working at Dairy Queen or even Soi Nana. They may be perfectly wonderful and kind young women. I would love it if the world was not judgmental based on things like job, income, race, choice of partner, or other factors.

However, that's not the case. And pissing and moaning about it isn't going to change the REALITY that we are judged on factors. You and I can agree that it's not right for Thais to lump us all into the same ethnic group (or vice versa), but that's exactly what IS happening right now.

We can work to change that reality, but right now we need to also acknowledge that RIGHT NOW things are not the way we'd like them to be.

So when I said, "aim a little higher when selecting a mate", I didn't mean you should pass over a girl SIMPLY because she works at Dairy Queen or Soi Nana, I mean that you shouldn't grab the first girl who comes along simply because SHE expresses an interest in you.

I will admit that when I was briefly single here, I rather enjoyed the attention, it was definitely a big boost to my ego, and so I can understand how a guy could get caught up in that. If I went out to a club in the States, I'd often get zero attention (mostly because I refused to wear black Armani suits and flash a Ferrari key chain as often as possible). But here, I can go to a rather "posh" club like Bed or Mystique or H'u, and get girls winking at me across the bar or pinching my ass on the way to the bathroom. It certainly is a nice change, don't you all agree?

However, what I quickly learned was that I couldn't date in a Western manner and expect the same kind of "acceptance" from friends here. Back in the States, it was perfectly acceptable to go out on single dates or even become intimate for a week or two and then break things off with no hard feelings. Also, in the States you might date someone a few times before you made the big step of introducing them to your friends or family.

But in Thailand, almost everything is the opposite. You don't date someone "one-on-one" until you are ALREADY boyfriend and girlfriend. Most "pre-dating" is done in groups, and there's a whole dance of social factors going on that eventually lead to two people becoming an "item".

So you can actually create a lot of confusion for a Thai girl if you ask her out on a date, one-on-one. By doing that, you're pretty much saying "I want you to be my girlfriend". So she's got to sit home and go through a whole thought process about whether or not she wants to "fall in love with you", BEFORE she even accepts the first date.

After my girlfriend went back to America, I made the mistake of dating like an American, and I actually lost some friends over it. Because at the same time, I had been going out to dinner with them, and unbeknownst to me, they had already selected one girl in the group to pair off with me (or perhaps she had expressed an interest to her friends and they were helping with the match-making).

I certainly was interested in her, but at the time, I had just broken up with my girlfriend, so I wanted to "play the field a bit", a natural thing for any American guy to do. So therefore, while I was always very friendly to her when we all went out to dinner or on short holiday trips, I never was overtly flirtatious or expressed any romantic interests. I figured I'd enjoy a month or two of the single life and then ask this girl out on a date and settle down into a nice relationship. I certainly wasn't going to make the mistake of asking her out on a date while I was still "single".

Unfortunately, what I didn't realize was that in the eyes of this girl and her friends, we WERE already dating. Going out in groups like that and ignoring the person you really like is EXACTLY how Thai people date. So apparently, not being flirtatious (in a Western sense) is exactly how you be flirtatious in a Thai sense.

Anyway, the point of that little story is that my friends got a little pissed off when they found out I was going to the movies with other girls. And that was the end of that group of friends for me.

The mistake I made was running around like a kid in a candy store dating any girl who gave me a nice smile. None of those girls matched up to the girl I had been friends with, and if I'd had an ounce of sense, I would have known that.

Some random girl with a great body and a nice smile may be really sweet and wonderful, or she may be a cold-hearted gold-digger, who knows? But do I really need to find out every time I meet one?

Also, as sweet and nice and sexy as a girl may be, if she doesn't share the same interests or converse at the same intellectual and emotional level, the relationship can go cold very quickly, especially if you're seeking a long-term mate and not a short-term shag.

So all I mean when I say, "Aim a little higher", is don't grab at something simply because it's thrown at you. You're the guy, you're supposed to be the hunter, not the gatherer. So take your time and be selective. Find the girl that is BEST for YOU, and not just some random girl who thinks you're best for HER.

Whatever criteria you use to make that selection is up to you. I wouldn't presume to judge. However, just don't make the same mistake I made. Don't take a pass on someone who is perfect, just because there might be someone MORE perfect out there. And don't "play the field" and expect your Thai friends to understand what you're doing in the same way a Westerner might. They won't.

Take the time to learn about how Thais date and then take a little more time and find a woman who's just right for you. Once you do that, put the blinders on and focus on her and her alone.

[ray23]

Because of your relatively narrow social circle and your snobbish attitudes to those of lesser wealth and opportunity than yourself, your wife and

[...]

in Dairy Queen or Soi Nana and came from a dusty village in Isaan). 

But don't you see how you are guilty of what you accuse him of? Your experiences have come down on the side of what you see to be 'normal' Thais (in your own words, those from a 'dusty village in Isaan') but of course, Isaan makes up only a percentage of 'normality' when it comes to Thai people. If his attitudes are snobbishly narrow then surely yours must be whatever-the-opposite-of-snobbish-is-ly narrow also!

I think you need to take the spirit of the OP rather than the letter - i.e. that we are given opportunities in this country based only on where we come from (i.e., try having such a great time if you are from Arabia and of the same relative financial situation) and that they should be respected/appreciated not squandered/put at risk for all by some.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Bingo. I've been trying to point that out myself as well. Many of the criticisms hurled at me in this thread have been based on assumptions that are mirror images of the kinds of assumptions I'm accused of making.

I never meant to besmirch the "quality" of any girl working at Dairy Queen or even Soi Nana. They may be perfectly wonderful and kind young women. I would love it if the world was not judgmental based on things like job, income, race, choice of partner, or other factors.

However, that's not the case. And pissing and moaning about it isn't going to change the REALITY that we are judged on factors. You and I can agree that it's not right for Thais to lump us all into the same ethnic group (or vice versa), but that's exactly what IS happening right now.

We can work to change that reality, but right now we need to also acknowledge that RIGHT NOW things are not the way we'd like them to be.

So when I said, "aim a little higher when selecting a mate", I didn't mean you should pass over a girl SIMPLY because she works at Dairy Queen or Soi Nana, I mean that you shouldn't grab the first girl who comes along simply because SHE expresses an interest in you.

I will admit that when I was briefly single here, I rather enjoyed the attention, it was definitely a big boost to my ego, and so I can understand how a guy could get caught up in that. If I went out to a club in the States, I'd often get zero attention (mostly because I refused to wear black Armani suits and flash a Ferrari key chain as often as possible). But here, I can go to a rather "posh" club like Bed or Mystique or H'u, and get girls winking at me across the bar or pinching my ass on the way to the bathroom. It certainly is a nice change, don't you all agree?

However, what I quickly learned was that I couldn't date in a Western manner and expect the same kind of "acceptance" from friends here. Back in the States, it was perfectly acceptable to go out on single dates or even become intimate for a week or two and then break things off with no hard feelings. Also, in the States you might date someone a few times before you made the big step of introducing them to your friends or family.

But in Thailand, almost everything is the opposite. You don't date someone "one-on-one" until you are ALREADY boyfriend and girlfriend. Most "pre-dating" is done in groups, and there's a whole dance of social factors going on that eventually lead to two people becoming an "item".

So you can actually create a lot of confusion for a Thai girl if you ask her out on a date, one-on-one. By doing that, you're pretty much saying "I want you to be my girlfriend". So she's got to sit home and go through a whole thought process about whether or not she wants to "fall in love with you", BEFORE she even accepts the first date.

After my girlfriend went back to America, I made the mistake of dating like an American, and I actually lost some friends over it. Because at the same time, I had been going out to dinner with them, and unbeknownst to me, they had already selected one girl in the group to pair off with me (or perhaps she had expressed an interest to her friends and they were helping with the match-making).

I certainly was interested in her, but at the time, I had just broken up with my girlfriend, so I wanted to "play the field a bit", a natural thing for any American guy to do. So therefore, while I was always very friendly to her when we all went out to dinner or on short holiday trips, I never was overtly flirtatious or expressed any romantic interests. I figured I'd enjoy a month or two of the single life and then ask this girl out on a date and settle down into a nice relationship. I certainly wasn't going to make the mistake of asking her out on a date while I was still "single".

Unfortunately, what I didn't realize was that in the eyes of this girl and her friends, we WERE already dating. Going out in groups like that and ignoring the person you really like is EXACTLY how Thai people date. So apparently, not being flirtatious (in a Western sense) is exactly how you be flirtatious in a Thai sense.

Anyway, the point of that little story is that my friends got a little pissed off when they found out I was going to the movies with other girls. And that was the end of that group of friends for me.

The mistake I made was running around like a kid in a candy store dating any girl who gave me a nice smile. None of those girls matched up to the girl I had been friends with, and if I'd had an ounce of sense, I would have known that.

Some random girl with a great body and a nice smile may be really sweet and wonderful, or she may be a cold-hearted gold-digger, who knows? But do I really need to find out every time I meet one?

Also, as sweet and nice and sexy as a girl may be, if she doesn't share the same interests or converse at the same intellectual and emotional level, the relationship can go cold very quickly, especially if you're seeking a long-term mate and not a short-term shag.

So all I mean when I say, "Aim a little higher", is don't grab at something simply because it's thrown at you. You're the guy, you're supposed to be the hunter, not the gatherer. So take your time and be selective. Find the girl that is BEST for YOU, and not just some random girl who thinks you're best for HER.

Whatever criteria you use to make that selection is up to you. I wouldn't presume to judge. However, just don't make the same mistake I made. Don't take a pass on someone who is perfect, just because there might be someone MORE perfect out there. And don't "play the field" and expect your Thai friends to understand what you're doing in the same way a Westerner might. They won't.

Take the time to learn about how Thais date and then take a little more time and find a woman who's just right for you. Once you do that, put the blinders on and focus on her and her alone.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You know everything you said is true, but do you think your suggesting the same standards to us that Thai's use for themselves. Or do Thai men go to brothels for relief during this mating dance?

I have seen a lot of Posts, about drunken farrangs mentioned again all very true. But, you see I live in Issan and when I went out in my single days I went to the Thai watering holes, since I came to learn about Thailand and not farrang land. I saw lots of druken Thai's, many of which were put in thie cars or on thier motorcylces by thier friends. So are we to hold our foriegn brethern to a higher standard then the Thia equivelant?

Not being judgemental, just food for thought.

[Pudgimelon]

You know everything you said is true, but do you think your suggesting the same standards to us that Thai's use for themselves. Or do Thai men go to brothels for relief during this mating dance?

I have seen a lot of Posts, about drunken farrangs mentioned again all very true. But, you see I live in Issan and when I went out in my single days I went to the Thai watering holes, since I came to learn about Thailand and not farrang land. I saw lots of druken Thai's, many of which were put in thie cars or on thier motorcylces by thier friends. So are we to hold our foriegn brethern to a higher standard then the Thia equivelant?

Not being judgemental, just food for thought.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Right, but what I'm pointing out to you is that even living in Isaan, you'd still have to behave as a MEMBER of the community, rather than some exception to the rule, if you truly wanted to be a part of it.

If you dated half a dozen girls in a month's time, don't you'd think that would "get around"? After all, the Thai word for "breathing" is "gossip".

So, yes, I am saying that we should hold ourselves to a higher standard than the Thai guys who booze and carouse. For two reasons: One, because we stick out like a sore thumb and therefore we essentially have no private life (especially up-country), and Two, because we are an "unknown" quantity at first, so how we behave initially will have a great impact on how we are treated later on.

You may eventually settle down and get married, and in the West if you had a playboy past it wouldn't be held against you. But here, it is. How you behave when you first enter their community will have an impact on where you get pigeon-holed. Act like a playboy and people won't take you seriously or trust you in business deals as easily. Act like a gentleman and you'll find a lot of things get "smoothed out" for you.

[britmaveric]

Pudgi - again you are worrying about what others think. If you lose mates over their shallowness than their loss - they really weren't your mates in the first place. I suppose if you care what others think and it makes you happy then so be it, but most of us could give fk all what anyone thinks.

I agree with you on dating aspects least from the thai perspective - things are taken way serious. The matchmaking can be downright annoying and to be honest causes more grief than its worth IMHO.

[bkkmadness]

Act like a playboy and people won't take you seriously or trust you in business deals as easily.

I can't agree with that. In fact if you go out and date numerous beautiful girls you gain some face with the business men in Thailand wouldn't you think? They certainly do it. Many a business meeting is held with a few mia nois in tow.

I'm not talking about coming home roaring drunk and shagging a girl in the front garden you understand, but dating a number of women when your single will not effect any business dealings with Thai people.

[Pudgimelon]

They certainly do it.  Many a business meeting is held with a few mia nois in tow.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Are you sure we're living in the same country?

I've never seen or heard of this kind of thing, so either you're just wildly speculating based on tired stereotypes of Thai men, or the types of "business dealings" you've been involved in are on a radically different level than the ones I've seen.

I find it very hard to believe that a Thai business leader meeting with the CFO of Tesco or Siam Cement is going to bring along a mia noi to a multi-billion baht business meeting.

[wilko]

[Take the time to learn about how Thais date and then take a little more time and find a woman who's just right for you.  Once you do that, put the blinders on and focus on her and her alone.

Why not wait to find a woman who thinks you're right for her/ or doesn't that enter the ocassion.....wombats doo came sooner than expected!

[wilko]

They certainly do it.  Many a business meeting is held with a few mia nois in tow.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Are you sure we're living in the same country?

I've never seen or heard of this kind of thing, so either you're just wildly speculating based on tired stereotypes of Thai men, or the types of "business dealings" you've been involved in are on a radically different level than the ones I've seen.

I find it very hard to believe that a Thai business leader meeting with the CFO of Tesco or Siam Cement is going to bring along a mia noi to a multi-billion baht business meeting.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Wake up and smell the coffee!

[bkkmadness]

They certainly do it.  Many a business meeting is held with a few mia nois in tow.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Are you sure we're living in the same country?

I've never seen or heard of this kind of thing, so either you're just wildly speculating based on tired stereotypes of Thai men, or the types of "business dealings" you've been involved in are on a radically different level than the ones I've seen.

I find it very hard to believe that a Thai business leader meeting with the CFO of Tesco or Siam Cement is going to bring along a mia noi to a multi-billion baht business meeting.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Business is done at many levels in this country, you should have stated that you was talking about business meetings of that level.

You seem to have ignored the rest of my post?

I find it very hard to believe that a Thai business leader meeting with the CFO of Tesco or Siam Cement is going to bring along a mia noi to a multi-billion baht business meeting.

I also find it hard to believe that business at that level would not be conducted because one of the people involved had a few girls in the past. That would be totally unimportant to real businessmen since it would be very unproductive to the companies involved in said meetings.

[bkkmadness]

I've never seen or heard of this kind of thing, so either you're just wildly speculating based on tired stereotypes of Thai men, or the types of "business dealings" you've been involved in are on a radically different level than the ones I've seen.

In fact have you ever seen one of these business meetings fall apart or one party not agree to do business with the other because of the amount of notches on that party's bed post?

[Siripon]

They certainly do it.  Many a business meeting is held with a few mia nois in tow.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Are you sure we're living in the same country?

I've never seen or heard of this kind of thing, so either you're just wildly speculating based on tired stereotypes of Thai men, or the types of "business dealings" you've been involved in are on a radically different level than the ones I've seen.

I find it very hard to believe that a Thai business leader meeting with the CFO of Tesco or Siam Cement is going to bring along a mia noi to a multi-billion baht business meeting.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

How long has this boy been in Thailand? You know nothing about Thai businessmen, it's the norm to have at least one mia noi in the background. What business dealings have you witnessed?

Your references to:' one of the cleaning girls..... those girls are in a certain 'class' and if you start dating them you insert yourself right into that class'---What sort of elitist nonsense is this? What do you know about working class Thai women? Is your Thai fluent enough to understand their conversation?

I thought Americans prided themselves on being 'class blind', equal.