The Loss Of Status

[britmaveric]

You seem to have ignored the rest of my post?

Bkk - Pudgi is good at ignoring valid criticism.

[Sir Burr]

I've followed this thread with interest. Like many people I'm sure, I thought the original post came over as a bit stuck up and condescending.

After reading Pudgi's explanations, clarifications and the down right earnestness with which they were written, I came to realise that this was not the OP's intent at all.

Also, I found that most everything he was saying was true. The logic is faultless. If we all behave well and don't offend the Thais, eventually we'll get more respect and maybe (don't hold your breath) accepted. I'm sure it would work if all farangs acted like this.

Trouble is, is that it rests on the premise that the individual cares what other individuals think.

Take that premise away and it all falls down like a fragile house of cards.

I remember a post of Pudgis on another thread; he was praised to high heaven over it by many people. It was very much like this one, but, the crux of it was, was that he was pissed off being lumped in with other types of farang and having Thais thinking the relationship with his wife was something that it wasn't.

I suspect that all his posts on this thread stem from the anguish he feels about this gross injustice.

I can sympathise with him, but, I can't empathise. Instead of trying to change the attitude of all farangs and then, eventually Thais, wouldn't a personal attitude change be easier?

After all, when it comes to love, other people's opinions shouldn't matter.

[MilkPlus]

I thought Americans prided themselves on being 'class blind', equal.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The left is out of control in America, they’ve even gone so far as to remove the awarding of Valedictorian from many High Schools out in California because they don’t want the "other" students to get their "feelings" hurt.

In grades K through 6 many schools don’t even keep score when playing games like soccer because they want everyone to "win".

What’s that quote from the INCREDIBLES, "if everybody’s special then nobody is".

Right now the Left is spending millions on battles to rename "Christmas Trees"...HOLIDAY TREES???? Because again they dont want to "offend" anyone.

[Cool Water Palace]

I thought Americans prided themselves on being 'class blind', equal.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The left is out of control in America, they’ve even gone so far as to remove the awarding of Valedictorian from many High Schools out in California because they don’t want the "other" students to get their "feelings" hurt.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Mm technical hitch in that last post, sorry about that. I do have problems with the system on this forum. It's very different and less intuitive, IMHO, than others I use.

What I meant to respond to, and thought I had, was:

"The left is out of control in America."

So - less than, as much as, or more than, the right, in its various manifestations (political, economic or religious), in that extraordinary, and IMHO peculiar, country. Hopefully I'll get there one day and meet those on the East coast, Ca, the deep south and the mid west and the rust belt. As well as seeing the sights. I'll need a few months!!

[MilkPlus]

I thought Americans prided themselves on being 'class blind', equal.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The left is out of control in America, they’ve even gone so far as to remove the awarding of Valedictorian from many High Schools out in California because they don’t want the "other" students to get their "feelings" hurt.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

"The left is out of control in America."

So - less than, as much as, or more than, the right??

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It really depends on the issue.

American elections are won in the center, most Americans are Center left leaning or Center right leaning.

Its the freaks to the left and the right that taint either party.

The problem is they are usually the loudest and most often heard.

But when shit goes down the center smacks them back into line, or at least thats the way it was.

Lately things have been topsy turvy, but its all cool, the center is starting to say enough is enough.

[ray23]

They certainly do it.  Many a business meeting is held with a few mia nois in tow.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Are you sure we're living in the same country?

I've never seen or heard of this kind of thing, so either you're just wildly speculating based on tired stereotypes of Thai men, or the types of "business dealings" you've been involved in are on a radically different level than the ones I've seen.

I find it very hard to believe that a Thai business leader meeting with the CFO of Tesco or Siam Cement is going to bring along a mia noi to a multi-billion baht business meeting.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

How long has this boy been in Thailand? You know nothing about Thai businessmen, it's the norm to have at least one mia noi in the background. What business dealings have you witnessed?

Your references to:' one of the cleaning girls..... those girls are in a certain 'class' and if you start dating them you insert yourself right into that class'---What sort of elitist nonsense is this? What do you know about working class Thai women? Is your Thai fluent enough to understand their conversation?

I thought Americans prided themselves on being 'class blind', equal.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Careful now not my fault Pudgy was born in America

Prejudice is alive and well in America.

Pudgy has definetly seen a different Thailand then I have seen. Or perhaps he is seeing it as he wished to be not a it is. You know five years ago I was sitting on the flight from Bangkok to Udon with a Thai lady, who spoke very good english. Her biggest fear of foriegners were tht they wanted to change Thailand. I dismissed it at the time. But, now I'm beginning to see what she meant. As for me if I wanted to live in a country like America I would live there.

The only thing I change is what happens in my house to fit my paticular needs, as for the rest of Thailand I do my best to adapt. I've learned that in most instances that the Thai way may be different them mine but in most cases it works just fine.

Of course I have no need to earn money here, so maybe that is why my thoughts differ to such a degree,

[MilkPlus]

Prejudice is alive and well in America.

Name one country where it isnt.

[cdnvic]

If this is what the topic has degenerated into, I'll just close it.

cv

[bkkmadness]

I think since Pudgie isn't here I should say this is going wildly which is a diservice to the OP.

Take your political thoughts elsewhere, its a good topic and one not to spoil.

[bkkmadness]

If this is what the topic has degenerated into, I'll just close it.

cv

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Beat me to it cdnvic, but dont think its worth closing yet just coz a few took it off topic.

The rest of us having a good lively discussion here.

[Jai Dee]

Beat me to it cdnvic, but dont think its worth closing yet just coz a few took it off topic. 

The rest of us having a good lively discussion here.

It is an excellent topic and a very worthy discussion.

Dear All: Please keep the political comments out of this thread, and remain on-topic.

[Pudgimelon]

How long has this boy been in Thailand? You know nothing about Thai businessmen, it's the norm to have at least one mia noi in the background. What business dealings have you witnessed?

Your references to:' one of the cleaning girls..... those girls are in a certain 'class' and if you start dating them you insert yourself right into that class'---What sort of elitist nonsense is this? What do you know about working class Thai women? Is your Thai fluent enough to understand their conversation?

I thought Americans prided themselves on being 'class blind', equal.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

A) I'm not a boy. I'm not naive, and I'm not "blind to the way Thailand 'really' is", as some of you seem to think.

I've witnessed plenty of business dealings. Never have I seen a "mia noi" in tow. Never. Ever.

C) My references to "cleaning girls, etc..." was, as I have said many, many, many, many, many, many, many times before: AN OBSERVATION, not a personal opinion. Do you understand the difference?

D) I am not an elitist. But neither am I a plebeian. Some people on this forum think that only the "lowest-class" has any redeeming value. Just take a look at their comments. They seem to think that anyone in the "hi-so" bracket is automatically selfish, greedy, aloof and snobbish. They attribute the worst motives to anyone who seeks to elevate themselves to a "higher status". Isn't that an inverse form of "elitism" and "class-ism"?

I've meet plenty of wonderful and kind people from all "classes". I don't limit the social circles I draw my friendships from as long as those people are of a "high quality" and are a positive addition to my life. A long time ago I gave up pursuing negative and destructive relationships and I don't see any reason to take that up again just to prove I'm not a snob.

It seems to me, though, that many people on this forum would actively snub an offer of friendship from someone in a higher social circle. Perhaps they would feel awkward and out of place in a setting were they were expected to mind their manners. Or perhaps they wouldn't want their barfly buddies to accuse them of "putting on airs". Whatever the reason, it seems to me that many farang come to this country and automatically seek out a fringe, bottom-rung segment of society without even giving the other segments of Thai society a try.

Such an attitude is just as dismissive as anything they are accusing me of having. And I can tell you guys, you're missing out on a lot.

Personally, I prefer a more rich and varied experience of Thai culture. I can remember one day a few years ago when I spent the morning swinging in a hammock and playing checkers with a group of homeless hill-tribe migrants living in Bang Kapi, the afternoon watching a movie with some university students, and the evening dining on lobster at a country club. Such experiences are open to all farang, but only if you open your mind a bit.

And not only do you have to open your mind to accept Thai culture and your role in it, but you also have to open your mind to new possibilities within yourself. Why seek out the worst in your nature when you come here? Why not use this as an opportunity to seek out the best in your nature and "re-invent" yourself as a better man?

Edited December 9, 2005 by Pudgimelon

[Neeranam]

Personally, I prefer a more rich and varied experience of Thai culture. I can remember one day a few years ago when I spent the morning swinging in a hammock and playing checkers with a group of homeless hill-tribe migrants living in Bang Kapi, the afternoon watching a movie with some university students, and the evening dining on lobster at a country club. Such experiences are open to all farang, but only if you open your mind a bit.

Man, you've got it made.

[RamdomChances]

Personally, I prefer a more rich and varied experience of Thai culture. I can remember one day a few years ago when I spent the morning swinging in a hammock and playing checkers with a group of homeless hill-tribe migrants living in Bang Kapi, the afternoon watching a movie with some university students, and the evening dining on lobster at a country club. Such experiences are open to all farang, but only if you open your mind a bit.

Man, you've got it made.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I probably could'nt streach to the "evening dining on lobster at a country club" nothing to do with "opening my mind" rather to do with "opening my wallet"

[Maigo6]

I probably could'nt streach to the "evening dining on lobster at a country club" nothing to do with "opening my mind" rather to do with "opening my wallet"

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

RC, maybe you should become a Bangkok English teacher, dining on lobster in the local country club is just another everyday event for these guys.

( Whilst waiting for the Ministers and Movie stars to come and buy you a few beers ).

Edited December 9, 2005 by Maigo6

[JRinger]

I probably could'nt streach to the "evening dining on lobster at a country club" nothing to do with "opening my mind" rather to do with "opening my wallet"

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

RC, maybe you should become a Bangkok English teacher, dining on lobster in the local country club is just another everyday event for these guys.

( Whilst waiting for the Ministers and Movie stars to come and buy you a few beers ).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

and going to the men's room and standing in front of the mirror repeating several times to yourself:

(quote:Pudji) I'm not a boy. I'm not naive, and I'm not "blind to the way Thailand 'really' is",

Edited December 9, 2005 by JRinger

[Pudgimelon]

I probably could'nt streach to the "evening dining on lobster at a country club" nothing to do with "opening my mind" rather to do with "opening my wallet"

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

RC, maybe you should become a Bangkok English teacher, dining on lobster in the local country club is just another everyday event for these guys.

( Whilst waiting for the Ministers and Movie stars to come and buy you a few beers ).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

and going to the men's room and standing in front of the mirror repeating several times to yourself:

(quote:Pudji) I'm not a boy. I'm not naive, and I'm not "blind to the way Thailand 'really' is",

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Typical. My post was completely a non-offensive, food-for-thought bit about using the opportunities present in Thailand to improve your circumstances and yourself. The response? A bunch of trite one-liners sniping at me while completely avoiding addressing the issues I raised or adding something productive to the discussion.

Well, I'm sorry if you guys are so bitter and disillusioned that you feel threatened by any suggestion that you "better yourselves". That sounds like a deep-seated emotional problem and I doubt even moving to Thailand has helped you escape your personal demons.

Be that as it may, while you guys are busy sucking on your sour grapes, I'll be enjoying the fruits of a positive and productive lifestyle.

[RamdomChances]

I probably could'nt streach to the "evening dining on lobster at a country club" nothing to do with "opening my mind" rather to do with "opening my wallet"

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

RC, maybe you should become a Bangkok English teacher, dining on lobster in the local country club is just another everyday event for these guys.

( Whilst waiting for the Ministers and Movie stars to come and buy you a few beers ).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

and going to the men's room and standing in front of the mirror repeating several times to yourself:

(quote:Pudji) I'm not a boy. I'm not naive, and I'm not "blind to the way Thailand 'really' is",

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Typical. My post was completely a non-offensive, food-for-thought bit about using the opportunities present in Thailand to improve your circumstances and yourself. The response? A bunch of trite one-liners sniping at me while completely avoiding addressing the issues I raised or adding something productive to the discussion.

Well, I'm sorry if you guys are so bitter and disillusioned that you feel threatened by any suggestion that you "better yourselves". That sounds like a deep-seated emotional problem and I doubt even moving to Thailand has helped you escape your personal demons.

Be that as it may, while you guys are busy sucking on your sour grapes, I'll be enjoying the fruits of a positive and productive lifestyle.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

My one liner was'nt "trite" I thougt it was rather good actually nothing in it even directed at you.....Although I do have "deep-seated emotional problems" my grapes are sweet, although I'm not flexible enough to actuall suck on them.

RC

[dr_Pat_Pong]

This topic has grossly deteriorated. It is now under threat of oblivion.

[Maigo6]

I'll be enjoying the fruits of a positive and productive lifestyle.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Working 12 - 15 hours per day is enjoying the fruits of a productive lifestyle?

Do you ever have time to sleep after working those hours, then dining on Lobster in the country club with the Leaders of Politics, commerce and entertainment?

Edited December 9, 2005 by Maigo6

[bkkmadness]

Well, I'm sorry if you guys are so bitter and disillusioned that you feel threatened by any suggestion that you "better yourselves". That sounds like a deep-seated emotional problem and I doubt even moving to Thailand has helped you escape your personal demons.

Be that as it may, while you guys are busy sucking on your sour grapes, I'll be enjoying the fruits of a positive and productive lifestyle.

One of the people you refer to, RC, has a family and a business running in Thailand, would you not consider that a positive and productive lifestyle?

[Pudgimelon]

I'll be enjoying the fruits of a positive and productive lifestyle.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Working 12 - 15 hours per day is enjoying the fruits of a productive lifestyle?

Do you ever have time to sleep after working those hours, then dining on Lobster in the country club with the Leaders of Politics, commerce and entertainment?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't know Maigo6, how about you? Do you ever have time to have a life after spending so many hours each day sniping at people on these forums?

[bkkmadness]

And I should ask again as you seem to have missed it the first time round:

In fact have you ever seen one of these business meetings fall apart or one party not agree to do business with the other because of the amount of notches on that party's bed post?

In fact, even if you have never witnesses them present at a business meeting, you could safely assume that many of the people involved in those meetings did have mia nois on the side and the other parties would have been aware of this. Is that not consider 'playboy'?

Edited December 9, 2005 by bkkmadness

[Pudgimelon]

I've followed this thread with interest. Like many people I'm sure, I thought the original post came over as a bit stuck up and condescending.

After reading Pudgi's explanations, clarifications and the down right earnestness with which they were written, I came to realise that this was not the OP's intent at all.

Also, I found that most everything he was saying was true. The logic is faultless. If we all behave well and don't offend  the Thais, eventually we'll get more respect and maybe (don't hold your breath) accepted. I'm sure it would work if all farangs acted like this.

Trouble is, is that it rests on the premise that the individual cares what other individuals think.

Take that premise away and it all falls down like a fragile house of cards.

I remember a post of Pudgis on another thread; he was praised to high heaven over it by many people. It was very much like this one, but, the crux of it was, was that he was pissed off being lumped in with other types of farang and having Thais thinking the relationship with his wife was something that it wasn't.

I suspect that all his posts on this thread stem from the anguish he feels about this gross injustice.

I can sympathise with him, but, I can't empathise. Instead of trying to change the attitude of all farangs and then, eventually Thais, wouldn't a personal attitude change be easier?

After all, when it comes to love, other people's opinions shouldn't matter.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks, Sir Burr. It is nice to know that some people appreciate this topic, can grasp the point, and still make criticial remarks that don't require a personal jab.

I'm not trying to "change the attitudes of farang (or Thais)", I'm only trying to demonstrate that there are valid alternatives to the "farang stereotype" out there.

I do indeed feel a bit of anquish on my wife's behalf because it is grossly unfair that we need to "prove ourselves" every time we meet someone new. I'm sure many of you can relate similar encounters where you go through this little series of introductory questions that dance around the stereotype. It's definitely a pass/fail test too. Pass the test, and you're accepted as "not one of those farang/Thai couples"; fail the test and you'll be treated pleasantly enough, but you certainly won't be accepted (though you may never know what you're missing out on).

[bkkmadness]

Pudgie, I know its a 'one man shoiw' on your side of the argument, but perhaps answering some questions would be a benefit to the discussion rather than just sniping at the people that snipe at you.

Its a bit of a waste of my time otherwise and I'm quite enjoying this discussion as evident when I see this thread was going to be closed..

[Pudgimelon]

And I should ask again as you seem to have missed it the first time round:

In fact have you ever seen one of these business meetings fall apart or one party not agree to do business with the other because of the amount of notches on that party's bed post?

In fact, even if you have never witnesses them present at a business meeting, you could safely assume that many of the people involved in those meetings did have mia nois on the side and the other parties would have been aware of this. Is that not consider 'playboy'?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Bkkmadness, I seriously think that you are speculating about a segment of society with which you have very little contact.

Your assumptions are based on stereotypes, not experience or fact.

There are a lot of people who bandy about the statement "all Thai guys have mistresses or go to massage parlours" as if it where some hard fact. But it is baseless speculation based on a stereotype (and a stereotype that probably makes people feel a lot more comfortable about their lifestyle choices. after all, it's a lot easier to feel like you "fit in" if you THINK you have something in common with the locals").

Perhaps the kinds of guys you hang out with are like that. I certainly know many like that too. But I would never presume to make such a broad and sweeping statements about Thai behavior based on few "misbehaving" gentlemen. One thing I will say about those guys is that they do everything in their power to keep their second life a secret. So I HIGHLY doubt that they would bring a mia noi to a business meeting, which you originally claimed. That's just outrageous and simply wouldn't be tolerated openly in Thai culture.

Making such a statement only shows that you are perfectly willing to accept stereotypes as facts as long as they support your pre-existing world view.

I personally know many Thai men who are loving husbands and good fathers. You may fling all the stereotypical crap you want at them, but as a Thai would put it, that only makes YOU look like the poop-throwing monkey.

If your circle of friends does not include people of a high moral, social and ethical fiber then I pity you. You really should reconsider the criteria you use to decide whether or not someone should be your friend. There are a lot of good people out there who DON'T cheat on their wives. If you don't know any, that's kinda sad.

[bkkmadness]

Pudgie, no need to pity me, or be condescending towards me. You seem to be the one stereotyping, I'm offering examples where there are individuals that break your stereotypes hopefully showing that there is a large grey area and its all not as black and white as you may think, or have been led to think.

Many politicians and businessmen have mia nois, if you don't know that its because you are not close enough in that circle to be told. I assume by many of these people whos business meetings you have witnessed consider you just another farang teacher, or as your wifes farang husband and are perhaps not privvy to more personal information.

And I suppose once again, for the third time I have to ask the question:

In fact have you ever seen one of these business meetings fall apart or one party not agree to do business with the other because of the amount of notches on that party's bed post?

Please if you do answer, treat me with the politeness and respect I have shown you thoughout this topic. Not once have I sniped at you. If not I consider this discussion on my part closed, as I cannot deal with discussing subjects with insulting people.

[rio666uk]

Wow - this is still going is it.... well ill chuck my 2baht in before it gets closed then.

Pudgimelon - Ive followed this from the beginning, wanting to bite back as soon as the topic was posted... but thought no, let it run its course and see what becomes of an obvious potential flaming match....

i think you have some valid points and youve obviously made some true observations, however, i think the reason that people are coming out of the woodwork to take a pop at you may have something to do with your writing style and persistence.

Now dont think that Im having a dig at you personally but on first reading of some of your replies, although you may not mean it, but you sound so full of self-importance, someone who, at some point arrived in thailand - as did everyone else and thought wow - the weather, the culture, the beauty of the country and its women.... but has since climbed up into an ivory tower to contemplate yours and every other farrangs position in this new land.

I would imagine a lot of what you see, behaviour wise of may forreigners, are guys on their first, second or third holiday... and theyre running round like kids in a candy shop... who can blame them! Why do you feel so passionate about trying to get other expats to "better themselves", you speak as though you know the path to enlightenment but havent quite got there yet as youre so wrapped up in the daily struggle not to be seen as one of "those falang/thai couples".

I think that's a sorry state to be in, I know the feeling, Ive felt it myself when ive been out with my wife, but as a farrang with a thai gf/wife youre gonna be judged, whether it be from peers, passers by, thais, backpackers, holiday makers, hotel staff whatever... and i think its far worse back in your native country.

But to sum up this post - I think after 16 pages its clear to see that everyone now knows your take on life and i think youve got a flavour from the flip side of the coin.

IMHO

Edited December 9, 2005 by rio666uk

[Maigo6]

I don't know Maigo6, how about you?  Do you ever have time to have a life after spending so many hours each day sniping at people on these forums?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Only you sweetheart, only you.

[bkkmadness]

what becomes of an obvious potential flaming match....

Which is a shame because it is a great topic and it needn't be a flaming match as it endangers the thread.

something to do with your writing style and persistence.

Persistance in an opinion you truely believe in is a good thing, but you must also be willing to alter that opinion at all times. His writing style/communications skills does certainly lack though.

I think that's a sorry state to be in, I know the feeling, Ive felt it myself when ive been out with my wife, but as a farrang with a thai gf/wife youre gonna be judged, whether it be from peers, passers by, thais, backpackers, holiday makers, hotel staff whatever... and i think its far worse back in your native country.

We and our wives/gfs all have to deal with that, and sadly I dont think that will ever change. Unfortunately many of the farangs that complain about that also stereotype other farang/Thai couples as well.