Charter Change: What Has Real Reform Got To Do With It?: Thai Talk

[Roadman]

I notice you, and some others, have not provided any answers to the excellent points raised by billd766.

Excellent points? I just noted the boring convoluted narrative that there had not been a coup against Thaksin.I thought that tired old lie, which even the coup makers don't pretend to believe, had died a death.Apparently not, though I have never seen it gain much circulation outside this forum

Anything that happened between the coup, and the election restoring political dignity to the Thai people, cannot be exonerated by coup-ists.

As much as they try via this convoluted narrative as you reference jayboy.

The political garbage between these two events are not worthy of comment or consideration. It is not history worth noting, and is expunged by all well-meaning citizens.

The culminating event of over 90 deaths standing up to this grievous political history, is a testimony to its aberrant nature.

Coup-ists and their sympathizers are all implicated in those deaths, and their defence of this history is gross indeed.

Let us all hope these people will be held responsible and will fade along with their misguided perspectives.

I as most law abiding citizens are also waiting as you are for these people to be held responsible for the 91 deaths. But the trouble is the convicted fugitive criminal Thaksin will not come back into the country to face the charges of treason and leading a civil war against Thailand.

[Roadman]

Of course this is only about Thaksin, that's all any of this has ever been about. The only goal of this government, aside from lining their pockets, is to pardon Thaksin and return his confiscated billions (which these corrupt politicians support as it lines their own pockets as well). Once Thaksin's billions are returned he will be almost unstoppable. Then we will get the society these people desire, a corrupt oligarchy that squashes all dissent and enables the permanent exploitation of the Thai people at the hands of a ruthless oppressor.

Not interested in debating indoctrinated Thaksin haters.

I know. It's must be like stepping in dog crap for you. The Thaksin stink wells up to meet you and gets everywhere all through your house making you want to puke.

[animatic]

tragickingdom, #2

The Thai constitution needs a complete rewrite in it must be an article that any one trying to rewrite a constitution after a coupe should be send to prison for life

Constitutional changes after a coup are seen for what they are, and are typically assigned to the garbage bin, as soon as elections return the country to Democratic Institutions.

Defending a coup-constitution is a tough go!

That would be the oinion of a troll.

Opinion or onion of a troll,

you peel off the layers and it still stinks and makes your eyes water.

Defending these proposed changes is a MUCH tougher go,

since the proposed changes enshrine greater ease of corruption.

The people voted Yeah to the constitution, over 70%,

much more than the PTP party got for votes,

but that's not good enough for those that want

increased graft and corruption without penalty for their political partners.

Yes, please explain what will be improved with these

proposed changes for the PEOPLE of Thailand,

not the simply the corrupt political classes and their backers?

Edited February 17, 2012 by animatic

[tlansford]

tragickingdom, #2

The Thai constitution needs a complete rewrite in it must be an article that any one trying to rewrite a constitution after a coupe should be send to prison for life

Constitutional changes after a coup are seen for what they are, and are typically assigned to the garbage bin, as soon as elections return the country to Democratic Institutions.

Defending a coup-constitution is a tough go!

That would be the oinion of a troll.

Opinion or onion of a troll,

you peel off the layers and it still stinks and makes your eyes water.

Defending these proposed changes is a MUCH tougher go,

since the proposed changes enshrine greater ease of corruption.

The people voted Yeah to the constitution, over 70%,

much more than the PTP party got for votes,

but that's not good enough for those that want

increased graft and corruption without penalty for their political partners.

Yes, please explain what will be improved with these

proposed changes for the PEOPLE of Thailand,

not the simply the corrupt political classes and their backers?

"over 70%" ???

Historical fact : The election commission said 56.69% voted yes.

[OzMick]

Bild766's points are the same tired version of events which have been refuted many times on TVF. There is hardly need to do so again.

Have a Red bull and try to point out just one error. Or cut and paste from prior debate. Anything other than a "tired" excuse.

[OzMick]

Of course this is only about Thaksin, that's all any of this has ever been about. The only goal of this government, aside from lining their pockets, is to pardon Thaksin and return his confiscated billions (which these corrupt politicians support as it lines their own pockets as well). Once Thaksin's billions are returned he will be almost unstoppable. Then we will get the society these people desire, a corrupt oligarchy that squashes all dissent and enables the permanent exploitation of the Thai people at the hands of a ruthless oppressor.

Not interested in debating indoctrinated Thaksin haters.

..........or refuting an historically accurate timeline.

[OzMick]

tragickingdom, #2

The Thai constitution needs a complete rewrite in it must be an article that any one trying to rewrite a constitution after a coupe should be send to prison for life

Constitutional changes after a coup are seen for what they are, and are typically assigned to the garbage bin, as soon as elections return the country to Democratic Institutions.

Defending a coup-constitution is a tough go!

That would be the oinion of a troll.

Opinion or onion of a troll,

you peel off the layers and it still stinks and makes your eyes water.

Defending these proposed changes is a MUCH tougher go,

since the proposed changes enshrine greater ease of corruption.

The people voted Yeah to the constitution, over 70%,

much more than the PTP party got for votes,

but that's not good enough for those that want

increased graft and corruption without penalty for their political partners.

Yes, please explain what will be improved with these

proposed changes for the PEOPLE of Thailand,

not the simply the corrupt political classes and their backers?

"over 70%" ???

Historical fact : The election commission said 56.69% voted yes.

And you have classified a lower result as "an overwhelming majority" or something very similar.

[tlansford]

- sniper -

That would be the oinion of a troll.

Opinion or onion of a troll,

you peel off the layers and it still stinks and makes your eyes water.

Defending these proposed changes is a MUCH tougher go,

since the proposed changes enshrine greater ease of corruption.

The people voted Yeah to the constitution, over 70%,

much more than the PTP party got for votes,

but that's not good enough for those that want

increased graft and corruption without penalty for their political partners.

Yes, please explain what will be improved with these

proposed changes for the PEOPLE of Thailand,

not the simply the corrupt political classes and their backers?

"over 70%" ???

Historical fact : The election commission said 56.69% voted yes.

And you have classified a lower result as "an overwhelming majority" or something very similar.

1) it was a note about historical facts. 56% & >70% are not the same thing, especially given the well-documented control of the referendum, would have made the politiburo proud. Amazing that people who cheer democracy don't have harsher words for the 2007 referendum.

2) I have stated that the results July 3rd with a 22 point spread in seats (not only in my opinion) represent a landslide win (every respectable analyst and journalist said the same) but also a mandate for the PTP (ditto WRT to other observers).

3) given that the PTP won 52% of the seats in an open election (acknowledged by the international community) with 40 parties participating, and the referendum with an up/down vote and the military driving (re: their supporters) people to the polls, out-lawing any kind of campaign against it, and threatening to write their own version, voters be damned, if it did not pass, garnered just over 56% of the yes vote, makes your comparison of percentage points between the 2 events as credible as your claim that elections had not been called before the coup.

[Reasonableman]

Still no convincing answer to that question. No answer from anyone to that question. Charter change: what's in it for reconciliation, looking to the best future for the Thai Nation, for everbody, not just a select few? Would someone supporting the need for change please explain the need and the inspiring vision for Thailand's future that drives it. Many thanks.

tragickingdom, #2

The Thai constitution needs a complete rewrite in it must be an article that any one trying to rewrite a constitution after a coupe should be send to prison for life

Constitutional changes after a coup are seen for what they are, and are typically assigned to the garbage bin, as soon as elections return the country to Democratic Institutions.

Defending a coup-constitution is a tough go!

That would be the oinion of a troll.

Opinion or onion of a troll,

you peel off the layers and it still stinks and makes your eyes water.

Defending these proposed changes is a MUCH tougher go,

since the proposed changes enshrine greater ease of corruption.

The people voted Yeah to the constitution, over 70%,

much more than the PTP party got for votes,

but that's not good enough for those that want

increased graft and corruption without penalty for their political partners.

Yes, please explain what will be improved with these

proposed changes for the PEOPLE of Thailand,

not the simply the corrupt political classes and their backers?

[scorecard]

Still no convincing answer to that question. No answer from anyone to that question. Charter change: what's in it for reconciliation, looking to the best future for the Thai Nation, for everbody, not just a select few? Would someone supporting the need for change please explain the need and the inspiring vision for Thailand's future that drives it. Many thanks.

tragickingdom, #2

The Thai constitution needs a complete rewrite in it must be an article that any one trying to rewrite a constitution after a coupe should be send to prison for life

Constitutional changes after a coup are seen for what they are, and are typically assigned to the garbage bin, as soon as elections return the country to Democratic Institutions.

Defending a coup-constitution is a tough go!

That would be the oinion of a troll.

Opinion or onion of a troll,

you peel off the layers and it still stinks and makes your eyes water.

Defending these proposed changes is a MUCH tougher go,

since the proposed changes enshrine greater ease of corruption.

The people voted Yeah to the constitution, over 70%,

much more than the PTP party got for votes,

but that's not good enough for those that want

increased graft and corruption without penalty for their political partners.

Yes, please explain what will be improved with these

proposed changes for the PEOPLE of Thailand,

not the simply the corrupt political classes and their backers?

The only answer you'll get from CalgaryII is more troll, more spin, and more attempts at diversion. Just a troll, nothing more.

You notice CalgaryII never responds to facts (repeat facts!) which enshrine why so many folks are so negative about the paymaster.

Why, because CalgaryII is just a troll trying to drum up a icture he/she wants peole to believe. Just a troll, nothing more.

Edited February 18, 2012 by scorecard

[nurofiend]

The Nation should have asked this question when the military raped the country in concert with Abhisit and his cronies and wrote again a new constitution. The Nation should have asked the somewhat rhetorical question how it is possible that idiots from the army and any other person with power could be able to write a new constitution every fie years or so and give themselves amnesty and how it is possible that in nomad countries a constitution is there for ever.

The Thai constitution needs a complete rewrite in it must be an article that any one trying to rewrite a constitution after a coupe should be send to prison for life. It will teach them a lesson that the constitution is not there for Royalists, military or industrialists but for all of the people.

How do you work out that The military and Abhisit (Democrats perhaps) raped the country

The scenario I remember was that in 2006 there was ONLY a caretaker government who failed to win an election and whose Prime Minister publicly went to the King and formally tendered his resignation which was accepted thus svering him from all authority.

He then told the country that he had had enough of politics and was quitting.

A new pro tem caretaker Prime Minister was appointed to oversee the next election however the time to do that had run out.

The previous Prime Minister returned and took over WITHOUT formally going to the king (thus it was illegal) and proceeded to try to run Thailand as he had before he resigned.

When the coup came he was in New York illegally representing himself as the Prime Minister of Thailand.

The coup happened and the military promised that they would leave in a year. It was more like 13 or 14 months.

What followed was an election won by Samak who also broke the law (perhaps it was a silly law) and was forced to resign.

His party could legally have had him back as PM but chose Thaksin's brother in law instead.

That party was disolved for blatent election cheating and in the mess that followed the Democrats came up with a coalition to take over the government which is perfectly legal in Thailand.

That took place in 2009 nearly 3 years after the coup.

Where you have come up with the army and the democrats raping the country is beyond me.

Can you explain it simply to me and other people and also explain it what I have written above is correct or not and if I was wrong, please tell me where and why.

Thank you.

A new pro tem caretaker Prime Minister was appointed to oversee the next election however the time to do that had run out.

could you clarify this?

[thaihome]

"...the present constitution does not support political parties but undermines them.

This is pure rhetoric carefully designed to cover the real agenda which is to remove the section 237 which allows for the dissolution of a party when a executive board member commits an act in violation of the Organic Act on the Election of Members of the House of Representatives. This would be things like the Deputy Party Leader giving money to Kamnans to support the election of his sister.

In fact, there is little difference in wording about political parties in the two constitutions

"Under the constitution, procedures to create independent organisations and select their members lack public participation and go against the principle of democracy."

Rather than more rhetoric, could you cite specific articles of the two constitutions to point how you arrived at this conclusion?

The nomination process and election for members of the independent organizations are almost identical.

The only real difference is 49% of the Senate (who actually elect the independent organizations) is appointed. I would have no problem changing that to a fully elected Senate even knowing that it would subject to the same political pressures that happened in 2005.

"Independent organizations and the judiciary are allowed to operate without a system of checks and balances, which adversely affects the justice system and results in double standards."

Can you show where the 1997 Constitution contained any checks and balances that are not in the 2007 version? In fact, it the lack of such checks and balances in the 1997 version that allowed the TRT government to stack these Independent organizations and the judiciary

with political cronies.

"Moreover, the constitution is undemocratic as it resulted from the 2006 military coup."

This is pure political sloganism at its worst and cannot be substantiated in anyway. In fact, the 2007 Constitution has resulted in two democratically elected Parliaments.

The charter creates divisions among the public, which necessitates drawing up a new and a more democratic constitution.

The divisions were not created by the 2007 Constitution. The divisions are actually economically based and these inequalities are to the benefit and are perpetuated by the provincial godfathers, many of whom make up the base support for Thaksin and allow the UDD to operate in their spheres of control as long as the economic problems are not addressed.

TH