All You "Thailand" Sceptics...

[Sateev]

Someone get back to me when something originating in Thailand appears on Bloomberg's radar...other than rice, and neon-lit massage parlors.

You obviously didn't get very far with the article.

Here we go, just for you.

Thailand ranks No. 1 in rubber and No. 2 in sugar. The country that brands itself the Land of Smiles has consistently remained one of the world’s top 20 tourism destinations

It is so predictable that when anything positive is said about Thailand, the instant knee jerk reaction is

1. Disbelief

2. Some comment on prostitution

Actually, I read the article in its entirety. I just don't buy the premise. Having rice, rubber, and sugar cane isn't a particularly acute statement on productivity. It's a statement on geography. I don't discount Thailand's dominance in these areas, except to say that they are busily aiming a .45 at their foot-parts with the rice scheme, and PLENTY of other sources are standing in the wings waiting for the bang.

And I have no attitude toward prostitution, except to say that it is prominent among Thailand's products. Tourism is too, and I suspect both will take a hit, as Thailand goes full-auto with that .45, and kills those particular golden-egg laying geese, by failing to address the crime and corruption that is driving people away in droves (regardless of the daily propaganda from pols and TAT.).

Comparing this country (which, contrary to your insinuation, I really love) to the West is (thankfully) nonsense. I just love it more when it is what it is, and not what clueless Western interests would prefer it to be.

Very difficult times ahead, I fear.

My prescription: take off the rose-colored glasses, see what the real problems are, and address them.

[Sateev]

Another take on the Bloomberg article, in which the Deputy PM expresses his hope that rice prices will rise sharply, is that a number of Western companies failed to accomplish their due-diligence in locating factories in a flood-zone, without any evidence of a Thai government plan to protect those businesses. Thailand's 'importance' in world trade derives from their leverage, NOT from their production. Without geographical diversification, Japanese and Western companies asked for it, and got it. Now, they are headed elsewhere.

As I said, get back to me when the other shoe falls.

[Roj]

Could be a rocky road ahead for the auto industry now that Malaysia has thrown its hat in the ring by offering attractive concessions to foreign car makers to entice them to manufacture their vehicles there. VW has already taken advantage of this.

[pisico]

It might not have been colonized, but it was occupied by the Japanese, a part of history that the Thai's don't like to remember.

Not true at all. Thailand was a Japanese ally during World War II and was never occupied. Thailand maintained its own independent government with a fully armed and active military and police force. Thailand even declared war on the US, Britain, The Netherlands, and all the western allies.

The country was NEVER occupied. Any Thai who tries to tell you that either just doesn't know the facts, or wants to absolve Thailand of any responsibility during the war.

Correct you are. Although there was a brief opposition by the Police in Samut Phrakan when the Japanese were marching into Thailand. Verbally Thailand declared war to Britain and the USA although the declarations of war were never actually delivered to those countries. As Allies, the Thais gave the Japanese areas to set up "comfort zones" (use your imagination) around Bangkok to give RR to the Japanese soldiers. Thailand aided the Japanese in the construction of the nefarious Railway of Death that linked Thailand to Burma, a British enclave. In Khanchanaburi many a British soldiers and Aussies captured in combat were sent to a hard labor camp, a concentration camp. A heavily fictionalized movie with Sir Alec Guinness was made on the building of the Bridge over the Kwai river. Not a shining moment in Thai history. Pibunsongkran (a military strong man who deposed the king in a coup: does it sound familiar?) was the absolute ruler of Thailand and the one to initiate the cult to personality (a la Josef Stalin) and by decree tried to make Thai people dress in Western clothing and eat with spoon and fork.

[lonewolf99]

I know this thread started about how good Thailand is..and with some digression mentioned the Japanese in WW 2....

I have never understood what the deal was back then. I have done some searching but find very little other than what has been mentioned already here.

What I do know is that locals did die building the Burma railway- but never seen numbers ? Tens of thousands of Indians but we westerners focus on us and the Australians.

My Thai GF's Grandfather on her mothers side is 90 years old. He told me briefly once that he spent 3 years hiding from and fighting the Japs. He went very glassy eyed when he talked of this. I did not press him further on the subject. But he is only man I have ever met or heard of doing this and he was in the Thai Army at the time so there must have been some resistance to the invasion / occupation ?

Many things we farrangs find as common global knowledge is totally missing in Thais. Ask any Thai about Pol Pot and the communists in Laos and you get a blank stare. Is this because they dont know? dont want to know? or scared to speak about it. Or were they personally affected to the point they dont talk about it. The GF's father bolted from Laos and has never been back but, again does not talk about it.

As for most Thias knowing about what utter crap Bloomberg business news pumps out in the hope that markets jump up and down based on their banner at the bottom of the t.v. screen.....no way.

I watched Bloomberg yesterday and a very pretty woman came on from India with way too much lipstick and spoke at about 300 words a minute about .....well all I looked at were here eyes and lips and sat slacked jawed trying to figure out what the hell she was on about....

[khaan]

does anyone here understand the pricing of oil, petrol and diesel in Thailand and how this could affect the Thai economy?

this morning for example I heard in the USA they are forecasting 5 dollars per gallon and some believe this is enough

to trigger another recession. If 5 dollars is eating into the disposable income of Americans so much that it could have

this result, then surely high petrol prices would have an even bigger impact on the disposable incomes of Thai drivers?

Edited February 25, 2012 by khaan

[JusMe]

It might not have been colonized, but it was occupied by the Japanese, a part of history that the Thai's don't like to remember.

Not true at all. Thailand was a Japanese ally during World War II and was never occupied. Thailand maintained its own independent government with a fully armed and active military and police force. Thailand even declared war on the US, Britain, The Netherlands, and all the western allies.

The country was NEVER occupied. Any Thai who tries to tell you that either just doesn't know the facts, or wants to absolve Thailand of any responsibility during the war.

Correct you are. Although there was a brief opposition by the Police in Samut Phrakan when the Japanese were marching into Thailand. Verbally Thailand declared war to Britain and the USA although the declarations of war were never actually delivered to those countries. As Allies, the Thais gave the Japanese areas to set up "comfort zones" (use your imagination) around Bangkok to give RR to the Japanese soldiers. Thailand aided the Japanese in the construction of the nefarious Railway of Death that linked Thailand to Burma, a British enclave. In Khanchanaburi many a British soldiers and Aussies captured in combat were sent to a hard labor camp, a concentration camp. A heavily fictionalized movie with Sir Alec Guinness was made on the building of the Bridge over the Kwai river. Not a shining moment in Thai history. Pibunsongkran (a military strong man who deposed the king in a coup: does it sound familiar?) was the absolute ruler of Thailand and the one to initiate the cult to personality (a la Josef Stalin) and by decree tried to make Thai people dress in Western clothing and eat with spoon and fork.

The incident at Samut Phrakan lasted not much more than an hour. Down at Prachuap Kiri Khan it lasted a full day, and 32 Thais were killed, mainly airforce trainees and some policemen.

As for the declaration of war, a physical handing over of a document is diplomatically unnecessary. There is also the unsubstantiated and denied by both parties story about Seni Pramoj going into Cordell Hull's (? not sure if it was his) office and saying "We both know what I have in my pocket, but I'm not going to actually give it to you." Nice story, but it didn't happen.

The Thais had very little to do with the actual construction of the Death Railway, although there have been unsubstantiated rumours.

I fully agree with your comment about the movie - heavy fictionalized and doesn't even approach anything truthful, but still a great David Lean film.

To see the different treatment of the prisoners of war and the Asian workers, there's the Hellfire Pass Museum, built and operated by the Australian government, and the Thai-Burma Railway Museum right across from the cemetery in Kanchanaburi. That one focuses much more on the Asian labour.

Phibunsongkram is a fascinating individual - some elements ridiculous, some admirable, and others downright scary.

[Naam]

I watched Bloomberg yesterday and a very pretty woman came on from India with way too much lipstick and spoke at about 300 words a minute about .....well all I looked at were here eyes and lips and sat slacked jawed trying to figure out what the hell she was on about...

what about her boobs? size not worthwhile to mention?

[ludditeman]

does anyone here understand the pricing of oil, petrol and diesel in Thailand and how this could affect the Thai economy?

this morning for example I heard in the USA they are forecasting 5 dollars per gallon and some believe this is enough

to trigger another recession. If 5 dollars is eating into the disposable income of Americans so much that it could have

this result, then surely high petrol prices would have an even bigger impact on the disposable incomes of Thai drivers?

I don't believe that Thais have the same reliance on cars that Americans do.

If fuel became that expensive they would just switch from car to scooter.

[CaptHaddock]

Kind of misleading touting the production of hard drives and cars as Thai accomplishments. Seagate and Western Digital are US companies, who came over here to take advantage of low labor costs -unskilled labor- then trained staff to do the production. Likewise, Toyota, Honda, etc., are the brains, while under-educated Thais do the heavy lifting (This, unfortunately, applies to Japanese car production in the US also).

Exactly the point, not merely about Thailand, but all of the SE Asian economies. None of them have developed new technology or built a company with global brand recognition. Unlike China or South Korea, for two examples, their partnerships with foreign technology leaders never even result in transfer of technology. China hired Siemens to build its first bullet train, but more recently China was the low-bidder on California's bullet train project (which will evidently not be built.) Is it even conceivable that Thailand, Malaysia, the Phillipines, or Indonesia could make such an accomplishment?

Thai businesses rent out cheap labor to foreign technology leaders. Because they make their money from local, non-competitive concessions from the politicians they have no interest in building the next Toyota, able to compete in the global marketplace.

Edited February 25, 2012 by CaptHaddock

[nong38]

The figure I have heard mentioned for Thais who died in the WW2 was 180,000 who apparently were not too keen on the idea of the Japenese invaders.

I agree with oil price rising, the effect on inflation will be serious, how to cope with that, the price at the pumps has risen 4-5 bts this month here, remains to be seen, I dont see any evidence of a plan, aprt from borrowing more money.

As for overseas companies in Thailand, they are here because they had a good eal to start with when they came, that does not mean they still have and they could easily go elsewhere, the Thai govt I think do not believe they will up sticks and move after all the investment that has been made that is beacuse they apply Thai logic, not western or world logic. The country has true potential but if it is not handled properly it could all end in tears as the golden Goose flies off to pastures new.

Edited February 25, 2012 by nong38

[PattayaPhom]

Nice to see they slipped the old "Thailand only South east Asia country to never be colonised" line in there.

And the reason they have never been colonised is because they were too scared to put up a fight and have conceded land left right and center each time a threat is posed.....look at Thai history, not exactly a fighting force to be recognised.

[thanchart]

Kind of misleading touting the production of hard drives and cars as Thai accomplishments. Seagate and Western Digital are US companies, who came over here to take advantage of low labor costs -unskilled labor- then trained staff to do the production. Likewise, Toyota, Honda, etc., are the brains, while under-educated Thais do the heavy lifting (This, unfortunately, applies to Japanese car production in the US also).

Do you know what goes behind produdction of HDD? It is not as simple as you seem to put it. 20-odd years ago, the star location for Seagate was in Singapore - they had really nice a large factory near my ex-home, producing the most HDD in the world. Then came a time when Seagate decided a cheaper place was needed and it shifted most of its prodiction to Thialand. That move failed and soon much of the HDD models were back in Singapore. There was just not enough skilled workkers in Thai;and to make things happen.

Now that seems to have changed - as Singapore has lost that top spot to Thailand. it tells me that the workers in Seagate Thailand has reached a certain level of skills to take over the top spot from Singapore.

There are some things happening in Thailand these days - may be not bleeding edge as yet, but nevertheless high-tech enough. You probably do';t know about (any of) these? I know some, as I am involved.

[waza]

IInteresting that in the fourth quarter of 2011, despite the floods, the SET Index jumped 12 percent to become the world’s fourth-best performer. It has risen a further 11 percent this year as of Feb 22. While the Thai economy slumped 8.7% in 2011 and will only have slight growth in 2012. I guess its true that the SET is one of the most manipulated markets.

[BEENTHEREDONETHAT]

Thanks for that 12drinkmore it is very informative. It's nice to hear good news once in a while.

[Sateev]

Kind of misleading touting the production of hard drives and cars as Thai accomplishments. Seagate and Western Digital are US companies, who came over here to take advantage of low labor costs -unskilled labor- then trained staff to do the production. Likewise, Toyota, Honda, etc., are the brains, while under-educated Thais do the heavy lifting (This, unfortunately, applies to Japanese car production in the US also).

Someone get back to me when something originating in Thailand appears on Bloomberg's radar...other than rice, and neon-lit massage parlors.

Do you know what goes behind produdction of HDD? It is not as simple as you seem to put it. 20-odd years ago, the star location for Seagate was in Singapore - they had really nice a large factory near my ex-home, producing the most HDD in the world. Then came a time when Seagate decided a cheaper place was needed and it shifted most of its prodiction to Thialand. That move failed and soon much of the HDD models were back in Singapore. There was just not enough skilled workkers in Thai;and to make things happen.

Now that seems to have changed - as Singapore has lost that top spot to Thailand. it tells me that the workers in Seagate Thailand has reached a certain level of skills to take over Singapore.

Thailand has not claimed to be an inventor country in the area of technology, so what you are talking about is irrelevant, even if that is how u may feel. But still, there HAS been progress.

There are some things happening in Thailand these days - may be not bleeding edge as yet, but nevertheless high-tech enough. You probably don;t know about (any of) these? I know some, as I am involved.

Having worked in the industry, I know that, for example, uneducated American, Mexican and Vietnamese workers can do Class 100 cleanroom repairs on HDAs, after appropriate training, but have no real idea what the parts they are working on actually do. Same-same Thai workers at Seagate or WD. There ARE a certain number of better-educated, self-motivated Thai middle managers, but they are the exception, and account for something like 0.1% of the local labor employed.

Singapore lost its 'top spot' to Thailand because the standard of living in Singapore (and, hence, labor costs) were far too high compared to Thailand. Manufacturers like National Semiconductor and Texas Instruments correctly figured out that they need very few highly educated workers, and refined their manufacturing processes so that even Thai workers could produce product.

And while you are mainly correct that Thailand has not claimed to be an 'inventor country', the OP was touting the Bloomberg article as an example of how Thailand is this great economic powerhouse. I was simply rebutting some of what was said in that article. Hardly irrelevant.

When (if?) Thailand ever breaks out of the crippling education system they have inflicted upon their kids, and the appearance-over-substance cultural values they embrace, it will have a chance at leadership in Asian business. Of course it will cease to be as much fun to live here in that case...but I think I'm safe in my lifetime.

Edit: typos

Edited February 26, 2012 by Sateev

[CaptHaddock]

Do you know what goes behind produdction of HDD?

And the original Thai contribution to the engineering of HDD or automobiles? Zero. Number of Thai owned new companies that have absorbed the fabrication technology to become globally competitive in the global marketplace. Also zero.

[lannarebirth]

I know this thread started about how good Thailand is..and with some digression mentioned the Japanese in WW 2....

I have never understood what the deal was back then. I have done some searching but find very little other than what has been mentioned already here.

What I do know is that locals did die building the Burma railway- but never seen numbers ? Tens of thousands of Indians but we westerners focus on us and the Australians.

My Thai GF's Grandfather on her mothers side is 90 years old. He told me briefly once that he spent 3 years hiding from and fighting the Japs. He went very glassy eyed when he talked of this. I did not press him further on the subject. But he is only man I have ever met or heard of doing this and he was in the Thai Army at the time so there must have been some resistance to the invasion / occupation ?

Many things we farrangs find as common global knowledge is totally missing in Thais. Ask any Thai about Pol Pot and the communists in Laos and you get a blank stare. Is this because they dont know? dont want to know? or scared to speak about it. Or were they personally affected to the point they dont talk about it. The GF's father bolted from Laos and has never been back but, again does not talk about it.

As for most Thias knowing about what utter crap Bloomberg business news pumps out in the hope that markets jump up and down based on their banner at the bottom of the t.v. screen.....no way.

I watched Bloomberg yesterday and a very pretty woman came on from India with way too much lipstick and spoke at about 300 words a minute about .....well all I looked at were here eyes and lips and sat slacked jawed trying to figure out what the hell she was on about....

My mother in law talked about the war sometimes, before the Alzheimers came. She said some of the Japanese soldiers would come to her house and play music with her father and talk about how much they missed their homes. She also talked about captured allied soldiers. She described them as "white giants" and said they were oh so thin. She said she and her friends would make khanom's for them, wrap it in a banana leaf and throw it to the prisoners when the guards weren't looking.

[Heimdallr]

Thailand is indeed at the top on many aspects as the original article states, and they should be proud of it. However, there is plenty of untapped potential in here due to many reasons and concentrating on those will become more and more important the closer we get to 2015 (AEC). Additionally, although Thailand has been a great place for automobile industry and other manufacturing activities, some concerns remain (eg. political instability, floods, graft).

[chainarong]

Thailand has been for some time in this position ,since the late 1990's,(Chuan) something that western countries can only envy, the big problem of late is stagnation , through one thing or another the Thai economy has struggled to a walk , one of the best performers in talking up Thailand was the former Premier Mr Mark. Thailand from hear on in, is possibly at the cross roads same as China, both countries have internal conflicts with it's people, this will decide in years to come where they will both stand within the world economies.

Edited February 27, 2012 by chainarong

[waza]

Thailand has been for some time in this position ,since the late 1990's,(Chuan) something that western countries can only envy, the big problem of late is stagnation , through one thing or another the Thai economy has struggled to a walk , one of the best performers in talking up Thailand was the former Premier Mr Mark. Thailand from hear on in, is possibly at the cross roads same as China, both countries have internal conflicts with it's people, this will decide in years to come where they will both stand within the world economies.

Unlike China whos economy is going great guns and the standard of living of the average Chinese is improving year on year, Thailands economy has peaked and is in decline due to civil unrest and natural disaster. As government debt increases and stagnation continues the decline in the standard of living of Thais will increase. The present government does not possess the skills to address the core problems, nor do they seem willing to, as they are fixated on a positive resolution to the plight of Thaksin. I