Crackdown On Land Owned By Foreign Residents

[tornado40]

I think this is firing warning shots about a future land grab and I would urge anyone to ditch the 'company ownership route' as essentially it is built on an illegal principle, the trouble with Thai law is that there is usually lots of little exclusions which are a matter of interpretation.

I have enjoyed the use of my house in Samui as a holiday home since I 'purchased it' via the company route in 2003

If I were to 'ditch' the company ownership route - what would be the best way to achieve this (I do not have a Thai wife/girlfriend)

I would be quite happy to go down the lease route as I'm 53 and this would take me to 83 but unsure who would then actually own it (obviously not me)

Any thoughts appreciated

[overhaul38]

Farang beware. The laws are not made to include the likes of you. Leave your money and go home.

[overhaul38]

The law is a bit confusing:

Thai adverse possession law:

http://www.samuifors...art-3.html#1366

Section 1382. Where a person has, for an uninterrupted period of ten years in case of an immovable, or five years in case of a movable, peacefully and openly possessed a property belonging to another, with the intention to be its owner, he acquires the ownership of it.

This is listed under Title III "Possession";

Title II is "ownership";

ownership and possession are not necessarily the same. For example, you own a piece of landlocked property and to come on or off the property you have to go through your neighbor's property. By doing it enough times you may have obtained, adversely and without your neighbor's consent, an easement to use his property. This is not the same as "adverse possession" by which you own outright your neighbor's property, including the right to sell it.

Under the Thai system there are different "titles" to the property. The following is excerpted and summarized from http://www.pricesano...in-thailand.php . The lawyer/founder of this particular law firm is Khun Harvey Price who btw is a falang who has obtained Thai citizenship and has been in Thailand since 1964-->I have met him, and he has a reputation of being one of the best lawyers in Thailand. If his firm puts something out, I would rely on the accuracies of the statements.

• a chanote (equivalent to “fee simple”) ....
  
• a nor sor saam gor (or a “confirmed certificate of use”) ...
  
• a nor sor saam (or a “certificate of use”) ...
  
• a sor kor neung (or a “certificate of possession”) ...
  

As you can see, the different types of "Titles" relate to the "ownership" interest in the property. A full chanote is "ownership" analogous to fee simple absolute (outright ownership). The other "titles" are certificates to "possess" or "use" . So while the Thai law may allow for "adverse possession" in that an adverse possessor may "possess" or "use" the land, it may not(or may--I could be wrong) equate to an actual "ownership" of the property--meaning the right to sell it for value. So if you "possess" a property for 10 years you may be entitled to obtain a certificate of use or possession, not necessarily the full chanote. This may be analogous to the distinction between an easement and full ownership adverse possession.

Once again, I could be wrong. I have attached English translations of the Thai law. Please read and interpret for yourself, as I am not your lawyer.

I hate to say this but everyone would be wrong in their translation even if they won in court...becuase everything is on a case by case, not to mention the senority level or deepest pockets, Today you win in court and tomorrow your back in court becaues the ruling was illigle .

And actually they're not confusing laws at all......they're magical.... Never seen laws in my life that are so flexable that they actually are changed on a hourly basis and from person to person in the translations. That they change so much it's more like magic. POOOF ! there goes your money your property......oh and by the way...were is my Thai wife?..

Quote the law if you will but the law means what I say it means......

[fullcave]

Oxymoron alert: foreigner can not own land. Regardless what bag of hot air claims. End of story..

[Tatsujin]

Gentlemen, trading insults, making assumptions about someone's looks and their motives for being here is getting far away from the core topic. Can we get back to the topic in hand?

[Nisa]

Of course also you can forget marry a Thai female, since May 2011 the Thai Law was enacted, Foreigners fifty year of age and older are not allowed to marry Thai females regardless of adult Thai female age. If they defy the Thai Law and marry in a foreign country, the Thai female risks loosing her Thai citizenship entitlements.

Are you sure you are taking about Thailand and not Cambodia, think you are little confused..there is no such law in Thailand. (not that it wouldnt be a bad thing to do)

Out interest back on topic how US citizens under the Amity Treaty have actually aquired land by this route...my guess not many

Wasn't the 50-year old marriage thing an April 1st post of George a year or two ago?

[Tatsujin]

Wasn't the 50-year old marriage thing an April 1st post of George a year or two ago?

Yes lol

EDIT: Just goes to prove some people will believe anything they read online and treat it as gospel lol

Edited March 14, 2012 by Tatsujin

[Nisa]

Another bullshit story. We are not allowed to own land so all the land 'owned by foreigners' is actually owned by Thais, be it nominees or people like jay and me. The Thais still own it.

The Amity Treaty enables American citizens to own up to 1 rai of land. It has not been modified or annulled to date.

Thanks - I'll have to look that up.

The Amity Treaty enables American citizens to own up to 1 Rai of land [to construct a home on]. As far as known, it has not been modified or annulled to date.

If and American wants to try this Amity Treaty approval for 1 Rai of land he better be of young age because it has to wind its way through the Thai Court system. Sixty-, Seventy-year old retirees better forget about it. Of course also you can forget marry a Thai female, since May 2011 the Thai Law was enacted, Foreigners fifty year of age and older are not allowed to marry Thai females regardless of adult Thai female age. If they defy the Thai Law and marry in a foreign country, the Thai female risks loosing her Thai citizenship entitlements.

This Amity Treaty with America is a left over from WW II when Thailand was a member of the Axis and Churchill was adamant for Thailand to be declared and treated as Enemy of the Allies.

The Seri Thais ( think it was Mr. Sukhumvit) pestered the hell out of FDR to get Churchill to change its mind and for Thailand not to be regarded an Enemy of the Allies. In the end FDR succeeded to change Churchill’s stand. In appreciation for this the young king at the request of the Seri Thai offered America the Amity Treaty including this 1-Rai of land for the construction of a personal residence.

Note: It is not to be used for business purposes and/or commercial agriculture.

You are misinforming people greatly. I suggest you read up on this subject before misinforming people further.

Treaty of Amity ldoes NOT allow Americans to engage in the following reserved activities:

....

Communications

Transportation;

Fiduciary functions

Banking involving depository functions;

Land Ownership, Exploitation of land or

Other natural resources; and

Domestic trade in indigenous agricultural products.

Not to mention the treaty is from the Vietnam war (1966) period and NOT World War II.

Edit See http://tcc.export.go.../exp_005404.asp

Edited March 14, 2012 by Nisa

[Tatsujin]

A primer for those that can't use Google:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Amity_and_Economic_Relations_%28Thailand%E2%80%93United_States%29

[Soutpeel]

Of course also you can forget marry a Thai female, since May 2011 the Thai Law was enacted, Foreigners fifty year of age and older are not allowed to marry Thai females regardless of adult Thai female age. If they defy the Thai Law and marry in a foreign country, the Thai female risks loosing her Thai citizenship entitlements.

Are you sure you are taking about Thailand and not Cambodia, think you are little confused..there is no such law in Thailand. (not that it wouldnt be a bad thing to do)

Out interest back on topic how US citizens under the Amity Treaty have actually aquired land by this route...my guess not many

Wasn't the 50-year old marriage thing an April 1st post of George a year or two ago?

The law was really enacted in Cambodia, I believe ,George was very clever in suggesting the the same thing was coming to Thailand....many hours of laughter on that one, some of the outrage by our resident OAP's was very amusing and when they were told it was a joke, they didnt believe it and carried on ranting

[Tatsujin]

Here it was:

[MobileContent]

No problem for any Farang that gives his Thai wife money to build a house or buy land as long she goes down to the Amphur and have a good character witness from his Moobaan with her as a witness. This issue is not about some farangs that are married to a Thai.

[Carib]

Another bullshit story. We are not allowed to own land so all the land 'owned by foreigners' is actually owned by Thais, be it nominees or people like jay and me. The Thais still own it.

The Amity Treaty enables American citizens to own up to 1 rai of land. It has not been modified or annulled to date.

Thanks - I'll have to look that up.

The Amity Treaty enables American citizens to own up to 1 Rai of land [to construct a home on]. As far as known, it has not been modified or annulled to date.

If and American wants to try this Amity Treaty approval for 1 Rai of land he better be of young age because it has to wind its way through the Thai Court system. Sixty-, Seventy-year old retirees better forget about it. Of course also you can forget marry a Thai female, since May 2011 the Thai Law was enacted, Foreigners fifty year of age and older are not allowed to marry Thai females regardless of adult Thai female age. If they defy the Thai Law and marry in a foreign country, the Thai female risks loosing her Thai citizenship entitlements.

This Amity Treaty with America is a left over from WW II when Thailand was a member of the Axis and Churchill was adamant for Thailand to be declared and treated as Enemy of the Allies.

The Seri Thais ( think it was Mr. Sukhumvit) pestered the hell out of FDR to get Churchill to change its mind and for Thailand not to be regarded an Enemy of the Allies. In the end FDR succeeded to change Churchill’s stand. In appreciation for this the young king at the request of the Seri Thai offered America the Amity Treaty including this 1-Rai of land for the construction of a personal residence.

Note: It is not to be used for business purposes and/or commercial agriculture.

The above post absolutely qualifies for the most uninformed rubbish posting of the month possibly of the year. Please educate yourself next time before plastering " the truth" here.

[glassdude007]

What about the Thai wife whom sold property with out my knowledge, forged my signature to sell house, forged my travler's cheques without my passport present at Bank in Roi Et and stoled my savings....I got little response from the law here in Thailand...years went by with lawyer taking my money...nothing came out of it...so where is the law...does not exist here in Thailand. Crack down is cracked up... I know of another fellow that is going down the same road but he will come to the reality that Thailand is not a place to invest in property or any future indevours one might have a likeing to do.

good post good advise sad story...

also some good info from this websight..

http://www.thailand-lawyer.com/company-land-purchase.html

Answerd my question, land in Thailand not a very secure investment at this time im afraid,

Are Americans able to purchase land with an Amity Treaty company?

No. Although the Amity Treaty affords Americans the right to own a majority of shares in a Thailand company and conduct a wide range of business activities, the Amity Treaty does not permit foreign majority companies to own land.

Edited March 14, 2012 by glassdude007

[pisico]

1. Professional Thai apologists (you know who you are) need to understand that here in TV there is no need to saang phaap สร้างภาพ, "make or create image". No! we are in the know of most things Thai.
   

2. It is necessary to go beyond the reading of the brief Wikipedia page on most subjects.

3. Those trying to deny the obvious using saang phaap need to know and accept this fact.

For one reason or another those who live here are aware that Thailand is not the worst country in Asia. But it is a known fact that the rights that Thais enjoy in other countries (land ownership, for instance) foreigners are barred from the enjoyment of those same rights.

[Bakeman]

Relax, happy feelings, positive thoughts. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[Tatsujin]

Relax, happy feelings, positive thoughts. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

You mean sabai, sabai? lol

[irlguy1]

So it would seem that this thread has basically become a bitching thread. With the exception of a few good people giving some input everyone else is just bad mouthing Thailand.

Look, it's this simple Thailand has been the same for decades if you dont like it then don't go there.

Stop thread bashing and quit thinking that all falang or thai are the same.

Good and bad everywhere and they have there ways and culture and politics. I may not agree with it but it's there country.

I am looking to move there in a few years and as posted a few posts back I am looking to get some land for my gf. So any chance instead of bitchin and having a go at everyone maybe you guys could just help others out with info not insults. Constructive info as we all know the bad points so just the ways to manage and do what we can to live the dream. If it turns to a nightmare then so be it but if we don't try we never succeed

[letitbe]

I think this is firing warning shots about a future land grab and I would urge anyone to ditch the 'company ownership route' as essentially it is built on an illegal principle, the trouble with Thai law is that there is usually lots of little exclusions which are a matter of interpretation.

I have enjoyed the use of my house in Samui as a holiday home since I 'purchased it' via the company route in 2003

If I were to 'ditch' the company ownership route - what would be the best way to achieve this (I do not have a Thai wife/girlfriend)

I would be quite happy to go down the lease route as I'm 53 and this would take me to 83 but unsure who would then actually own it (obviously not me)

Any thoughts appreciated

I think this is firing warning shots about a future land grab and I would urge anyone to ditch the 'company ownership route' as essentially it is built on an illegal principle, the trouble with Thai law is that there is usually lots of little exclusions which are a matter of interpretation.

I have enjoyed the use of my house in Samui as a holiday home since I 'purchased it' via the company route in 2003

If I were to 'ditch' the company ownership route - what would be the best way to achieve this (I do not have a Thai wife/girlfriend)

I would be quite happy to go down the lease route as I'm 53 and this would take me to 83 but unsure who would then actually own it (obviously not me)

Any thoughts appreciated

just sell it to a thai and get them to give you the 30 year lease Ive often thought theirs a gold mine for Thais offering forang say 1-2% of land and house value for freehold and giving them 30 year lease

[Nisa]

So it would seem that this thread has basically become a bitching thread. With the exception of a few good people giving some input everyone else is just bad mouthing Thailand.

Look, it's this simple Thailand has been the same for decades if you dont like it then don't go there.

Stop thread bashing and quit thinking that all falang or thai are the same.

Good and bad everywhere and they have there ways and culture and politics. I may not agree with it but it's there country.

This should be the last post of of just about every thread on Thaivisa before closing it.

[soundman]

I have removed a bickering session, and on perusal of the last few pages there are many other off topic posts that probably should go as well.

Please try to post about the topic at hand in a civil manner.

[12DrinkMore]

only a fool buy here,smart men like me rent and keep low profile.

all the ownerships through companies exist to f... you up at the end.married,give her all,and she will quit you,ahah....house gone,and she will deport you like a bum,ahah....

buy even condo and you will feel your pain very soon.

thailand=rent land....

That is the best advice you will ever get.

Only if you have enough cash to be able to turn around and walk away from it without a blink is it worth considering spending huge chunks of hard-earned cash on a pile of dirt in Thailand.

[transam]

Another bullshit story. We are not allowed to own land so all the land 'owned by foreigners' is actually owned by Thais, be it nominees or people like jay and me. The Thais still own it.

The Amity Treaty enables American citizens to own up to 1 rai of land. It has not been modified or annulled to date.

Thanks - I'll have to look that up.

The Amity Treaty enables American citizens to own up to 1 Rai of land [to construct a home on]. As far as known, it has not been modified or annulled to date.

If and American wants to try this Amity Treaty approval for 1 Rai of land he better be of young age because it has to wind its way through the Thai Court system. Sixty-, Seventy-year old retirees better forget about it. Of course also you can forget marry a Thai female, since May 2011 the Thai Law was enacted, Foreigners fifty year of age and older are not allowed to marry Thai females regardless of adult Thai female age. If they defy the Thai Law and marry in a foreign country, the Thai female risks loosing her Thai citizenship entitlements.

This Amity Treaty with America is a left over from WW II when Thailand was a member of the Axis and Churchill was adamant for Thailand to be declared and treated as Enemy of the Allies.

The Seri Thais ( think it was Mr. Sukhumvit) pestered the hell out of FDR to get Churchill to change its mind and for Thailand not to be regarded an Enemy of the Allies. In the end FDR succeeded to change Churchill’s stand. In appreciation for this the young king at the request of the Seri Thai offered America the Amity Treaty including this 1-Rai of land for the construction of a personal residence.

Note: It is not to be used for business purposes and/or commercial agriculture.

Did your lady tell you that ? OH SHIT, you've done it.

[moonbarman]

so basically if you're married and your wife has bought land, you're in violation.

they needed you in 1997...but now it's screw off.

Exactly, don't it just piss you off, as if the paltry 200sqyds of land my wifes house is on will ruin the future for Thai society just because she's married to a farang, i say string her up now and throw the two kids into the gutter,! <deleted> Amazing Thailand, grow up for gods sake.

[Nisa]

For one reason or another those who live here are aware that Thailand is not the worst country in Asia. But it is a known fact that the rights that Thais enjoy in other countries (land ownership, for instance) foreigners are barred from the enjoyment of those same rights.

Each country has its own way of doing things and just as Thais may enjoy certain rights in other countries that many outsiders don't here, you enjoy certain rights in other countries many of them cannot ... for one, even being able to go to many countries.

It really gets old having foreigners who have the means and ability to travel overseas and live in a foreign nations play victim to people who make an average of $9 (if lucky) a day and the overwhelming vast number of them will never step foot in another country let alone see a real ocean, visit an island in their own country or even stay in a hotel room. And if they could freely travel to another country the overall vast majority of them couldn't afford to let along buy a freaking second hand car let alone property.

What are we poor farangs to do when all these Thais have so much advantage over us when it comes to things like owning land in their own country and being able to go to visit certain attraction in their country for free? Woooo us poor deprived farangs.

Edited March 14, 2012 by Nisa

[pisico]

For one reason or another those who live here are aware that Thailand is not the worst country in Asia. But it is a known fact that the rights that Thais enjoy in other countries (land ownership, for instance) foreigners are barred from the enjoyment of those same rights.

Each country has its own way of doing things and just as Thais may enjoy certain rights in other countries that many outsiders don't here, you enjoy certain rights in other countries many of them cannot ... for one, even being able to go to many countries.

It really gets old having foreigners who have the means and ability to travel overseas and live in a foreign nations play victim to people who make an average of $9 (if lucky) a day and the overwhelming vast number of them will never step foot in another country let alone see a real ocean, visit an island in their own country or even stay in a hotel room. And if they could freely travel to another country the overall vast majority of them couldn't afford to let along buy a freaking second hand car let alone property.

What are we poor farangs to do when all these Thais have so much advantage over us when it comes to things like owning land in their own country and being able to go to visit certain attraction in their country for free? Woooo us poor deprived farangs.

I agree with you that Thailand holds precarious conditions for its own people. Each country should endeavor to the betterment of the standard of living for its citizens. Why the powers that be in Thailand do not do that? Maybe you should lead a crusade explaining to the powers that be how unfair and precarious is life for the Thai people who cannot travel, own a car and/or buy land in a foreign country. Lead on and do something productive to remedy the inequities of life in Thailand!

Lobby the powers that be to stop unfairness for the gracious Thai people. If you do that, I am sure that many Farangs will join you in spirit because most of us cannot volunteer do it along side you: the vast majority of Farangs do not have work permits.

Edited March 14, 2012 by pisico

[pisico]

only a fool buy here,smart men like me rent and keep low profile.

all the ownerships through companies exist to f... you up at the end.married,give her all,and she will quit you,ahah....house gone,and she will deport you like a bum,ahah....

buy even condo and you will feel your pain very soon.

thailand=rent land....

That is the best advice you will ever get.

Only if you have enough cash to be able to turn around and walk away from it without a blink is it worth considering spending huge chunks of hard-earned cash on a pile of dirt in Thailand.

Additional detail. Even when buying a condo, only Thais have a say so when it comes to the owners association meetings (for which Farangs pay in full every year) to make expenditures, to make changes to administration functions, etc. Only Thais are heard and often times, Thai owners are absent from such meetings! What is the purpose of owning a condo if one is powerless and voiceless when it comes to exercising basic principles of ownership to keep one's property in the best possible condition? Then there is the 51% Thai/ 49% farang ratio of ownership.

Edited March 14, 2012 by pisico

[Jayman]

only a fool buy here,smart men like me rent and keep low profile.

all the ownerships through companies exist to f... you up at the end.married,give her all,and she will quit you,ahah....house gone,and she will deport you like a bum,ahah....

buy even condo and you will feel your pain very soon.

thailand=rent land....

That is the best advice you will ever get.

Only if you have enough cash to be able to turn around and walk away from it without a blink is it worth considering spending huge chunks of hard-earned cash on a pile of dirt in Thailand.

Additional detail. Even when buying a condo, only Thais have a say so when it comes to the owners association meetings (for which Farangs pay in full every year) to make expenditures, to make changes to administration functions, etc. Only Thais are heard and often times, Thai owners are absent from such meetings! What is the purpose of owning a condo if one is powerless and voiceless when it comes to exercising basic principles of ownership to keep one's property in the best possible condition? Then there is the 51% Thai/ 49% farang ratio of ownership.

I don't think that is the case 100% of the time. Personally, I am on the home owners association's working group at my moo baan which was given power of attorney to set rules, collect fees, and enforce payment for our village by the head of the village. Even though legally I am not the owner of the land or house (is my wife) they still recognize me as the owner and listen to all grievances in the village be it from Thais or Foreigners.

[Gweiloman]

I am another one that does not understand the bitching of a lot of farangs here about how they are being mistreated and victimised. Some of you must surely know that a large percentage of the UK is owned by foreigners and see what it has done to land and property prices there? So I think that the Thais are very clever (amazing that) in restricting land ownership.

On another note, the majority of you are able to just get on board a plane and come here, either for a visit or to stay. Do you have any idea the hoops that Thais have to jump through, just to get a tourist visa, much less permanent residency?

[TAWP]

Of course also you can forget marry a Thai female, since May 2011 the Thai Law was enacted, Foreigners fifty year of age and older are not allowed to marry Thai females regardless of adult Thai female age. If they defy the Thai Law and marry in a foreign country, the Thai female risks loosing her Thai citizenship entitlements.

Incorrect, there is no such law.

George did post one 1st of April post about it however...