2012 Formula One Season

[apetley]

Found it all pretty anticlimactic tbh.

+1

I love the spectacle of Monaco but the race itself is one of the more boring of the season.

Practise should not overshadow raceday and unfortunately this race is one that does.

Time to bite the bullet and ditch it as a venue for F1.

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[rixalex]

Found it all pretty anticlimactic tbh.

+1

I love the spectacle of Monaco but the race itself is one of the more boring of the season.

Practise should not overshadow raceday and unfortunately this race is one that does.

Time to bite the bullet and ditch it as a venue for F1.

Sent from my GT-I9003 using Thaivisa Connect App

If not ditch it (and as boring as it can be, i would find the thought of doing so very sad) then at the very least don't add more of these borefest street tracks to the calander, as they have done with Valencia etc. One per season is more than enough thanks.

Speaking of boredom, how many more times in my life do i have to be told that driving the Monaco F1 race is just like riding a bicycle around your living room? Somebody buy Slater a new analogy for Christmas!

[F1fanatic]

Monaco has always been my least favourite race of the season, but the drivers seem to love it. Agree though, that one boring track (for the viewer) is more than enough.

I only managed to catch 'bits and pieces' of yesterday's race and was going to watch it properly today. In view of the comments, I don't think I'll bother.

[b19bry]

Monaco races are mostly not that exciting but I think this year's was not too bad and 6 different winners from the first 6 races is certainly a plus. Well done to Mark he drove a perfect race.

I think both Alonso and Vettel drove intelligent races and Vettel might have finished on the podium had things played out differently.

Renault flattered to deceive, I really thought they would do better given their earlier practice form, still was great to see James Hunt's helmet design on show again after all these years Kudo's to Kimi !

dne1226my12.jpg

[rixalex]

With regards Vettel's drive, he did do well to finish where he did, considering where he started, although i have one issue and one comment.

The issue: this is the second race in which he has not participated in final qualifying. Within the rules so that's fine, but what happens if we start getting more drivers doing this? I think FIA need to look at this and make some changes.

The comment: in the first lap he cut a corner and jumped 3 or 4 places. Not cheating in my book as he cut the corner in order to avoid a crash, but certainly were it not for this good fortune, likelihood is he would have been stuck behind slower cars for most of the race.

Hamilton's race, as with every race this season, was to a large extent undone by poor teamwork. Alonso started picking up pace and gaining on Hamilton, and they waited until he was right on his bumper, to bring him in for a pit stop - a pit stop that was slow as well - so it was inevitable that Alonso would come out of his pit stop ahead. And he did.

If there is one place where you need your team to think on their feet with regards race strategy it is at Monaco.

[Sophon]

>snipped<

The comment: in the first lap he cut a corner and jumped 3 or 4 places. Not cheating in my book as he cut the corner in order to avoid a crash, but certainly were it not for this good fortune, likelihood is he would have been stuck behind slower cars for most of the race.

>snipped<

Vettel gained 3 places from 9th to 6th in the start, and two of those places were because Schumacher and Grosjean dropped back because of their collision and so had nothing to do with Vettel cutting the corner. I have no idea whether Vettel gained the last position (past Raikkonen I believe) at the start or in the first corner.

Sophon

[rixalex]

>snipped<

The comment: in the first lap he cut a corner and jumped 3 or 4 places. Not cheating in my book as he cut the corner in order to avoid a crash, but certainly were it not for this good fortune, likelihood is he would have been stuck behind slower cars for most of the race.

>snipped<

Vettel gained 3 places from 9th to 6th in the start, and two of those places were because Schumacher and Grosjean dropped back because of their collision and so had nothing to do with Vettel cutting the corner. I have no idea whether Vettel gained the last position (past Raikkonen I believe) at the start or in the first corner.

Sophon

However the places were gained, they were gained legally, not questioning that - just that there was a degree of good fortune involved that set him up for the finish he managed. Take away that good fortune and things might have been very different, like the way things turned out for Button.

[rixalex]

I have no idea whether Vettel gained the last position (past Raikkonen I believe) at the start or in the first corner.

Thinking about it, the fact that there was a stewards inquiry for corner cutting, suggests there must have been some sort of issue with places gained.

[Sophon]

I have no idea whether Vettel gained the last position (past Raikkonen I believe) at the start or in the first corner.

Thinking about it, the fact that there was a stewards inquiry for corner cutting, suggests there must have been some sort of issue with places gained.

I don't think so. With the number of cars that had to cut the corner in order to avoid Grosjeans car, they were just making sure that no-one took unfair advantage of the situation.

Sophon

[rixalex]

I have no idea whether Vettel gained the last position (past Raikkonen I believe) at the start or in the first corner.

Thinking about it, the fact that there was a stewards inquiry for corner cutting, suggests there must have been some sort of issue with places gained.

I don't think so. With the number of cars that had to cut the corner in order to avoid Grosjeans car, they were just making sure that no-one took unfair advantage of the situation.

Sophon

If they were just making sure that no-one took unfair advantage, why did they not have a steward's inquiry for all the cars that you say cut the corner? Why was Vettel singled out? My guess would be, in cutting the corner he passed someone, whose team then radioed in a complaint.

[rixalex]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IR0q3ga-1fg

Just found this clip. Leaving discussions of legality to one side, i don't think anyone can deny that this sequence of events in the first few seconds of the race helped define the success that Vettel had on that day. That was the only point i was making. Not sure why anyone would contest that.

[F1fanatic]

Re. quali - I agree something should be done to ensure all cars eligible go out for Q3. Its not fair on those who have paid to attend the race weekend, when some cars find it advantageous to stay in the pits.

Its hard to know precisely what though. Tyres provided just for quali seemed a good idea to me, but the teams don't seem to support the idea for some reason.

[Sophon]

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IR0q3ga-1fg[/media]

Just found this clip. Leaving discussions of legality to one side, i don't think anyone can deny that this sequence of events in the first few seconds of the race helped define the success that Vettel had on that day. That was the only point i was making. Not sure why anyone would contest that.

Nobody is contesting that Vettel benefitted from the collision between Schumacher and Grosjean, had he been stuck behind them it's very unlikely that he would have ended up where he did. To my mind the clip you found just confirms that Vettel went into the chicane (cutting it) and came out of it in the same postion just behind Massa, so gaining no advantage by having to cut the corner.

Sophon

[b19bry]

Its hard to know precisely what though. Tyres provided just for quali seemed a good idea to me, but the teams don't seem to support the idea for some reason.

They don't support it because qualifying tyres with a short one or two lap life proved very dangerous previously

[rixalex]

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IR0q3ga-1fg[/media]

Just found this clip. Leaving discussions of legality to one side, i don't think anyone can deny that this sequence of events in the first few seconds of the race helped define the success that Vettel had on that day. That was the only point i was making. Not sure why anyone would contest that.

Nobody is contesting that Vettel benefitted from the collision between Schumacher and Grosjean, had he been stuck behind them it's very unlikely that he would have ended up where he did. To my mind the clip you found just confirms that Vettel went into the chicane (cutting it) and came out of it in the same postion just behind Massa, so gaining no advantage by having to cut the corner.

Sophon

Of course he gained an advantage by cutting the corner. Had he stayed on the track, to do so would have meant slowing right down to avoid contact with the colliding cars, and perhaps he would have got caught up in it. Or perhaps he wouldn't but perhaps in slowing down, other cars behind him could have jumped past.

The question isn't to my mind, did cutting the corner gain him an advantage, because it blatantly obviously did. The question is, was it a legal manoeuvre? I think it was, as i don't think he had much choice. Nigel Mansell clearly agreed.

[F1fanatic]

Its hard to know precisely what though. Tyres provided just for quali seemed a good idea to me, but the teams don't seem to support the idea for some reason.

They don't support it because qualifying tyres with a short one or two lap life proved very dangerous previously

Sorry, I wasn't specific enough. I meant qualifying tyres identical to race tyres, but only available for quali.

[dominique355]

With regards Vettel's drive, he did do well to finish where he did, considering where he started, although i have one issue and one comment.

The issue: this is the second race in which he has not participated in final qualifying. Within the rules so that's fine, but what happens if we start getting more drivers doing this? I think FIA need to look at this and make some changes.

The comment: in the first lap he cut a corner and jumped 3 or 4 places. Not cheating in my book as he cut the corner in order to avoid a crash, but certainly were it not for this good fortune, likelihood is he would have been stuck behind slower cars for most of the race.

Hamilton's race, as with every race this season, was to a large extent undone by poor teamwork. Alonso started picking up pace and gaining on Hamilton, and they waited until he was right on his bumper, to bring him in for a pit stop - a pit stop that was slow as well - so it was inevitable that Alonso would come out of his pit stop ahead. And he did.

If there is one place where you need your team to think on their feet with regards race strategy it is at Monaco.

I read that Pirelli has suggested the return of qualifying tires, exactly to avoid these scenarios where drivers stay in the pits thus saving fresh tires for the race.

Personally I love that idea, it's already frustrating enough to have almost no action on the FP 1 and 2 because the teams want to save tires. We don't need more sleepers during Q3. Either more tires allocated to qualifying tires.

[Sophon]

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IR0q3ga-1fg[/media]

Just found this clip. Leaving discussions of legality to one side, i don't think anyone can deny that this sequence of events in the first few seconds of the race helped define the success that Vettel had on that day. That was the only point i was making. Not sure why anyone would contest that.

Nobody is contesting that Vettel benefitted from the collision between Schumacher and Grosjean, had he been stuck behind them it's very unlikely that he would have ended up where he did. To my mind the clip you found just confirms that Vettel went into the chicane (cutting it) and came out of it in the same postion just behind Massa, so gaining no advantage by having to cut the corner.

Sophon

Of course he gained an advantage by cutting the corner. Had he stayed on the track, to do so would have meant slowing right down to avoid contact with the colliding cars, and perhaps he would have got caught up in it. Or perhaps he wouldn't but perhaps in slowing down, other cars behind him could have jumped past.

The question isn't to my mind, did cutting the corner gain him an advantage, because it blatantly obviously did. The question is, was it a legal manoeuvre? I think it was, as i don't think he had much choice. Nigel Mansell clearly agreed.

I think we will have to agree to disagree here. Of course, cutting the corner gained him an advantage as opposed to having to run into Grosjean or Schumacher (which was his alternative), but that is not the question seen from a regularity standpoint. He is allowed to cut the corner to avoid an accident, but he is not allowed to gain an advantage by doing so as opposed to taking the regular route. So the question is, did he gain an advantage by cutting the corner compared to where he would have been on the track had Schumacher and Grosjean magically disappeared into thin air, allowing Vettel to follow the track. To my eyes the clip you provided (good find, thank you for that) shows that he came out in the same position (behind Massa) as he would have, if he had been able to stay on the track. And it seems the F1 commissioners agreed.

Sophon

[Sophon]

Its hard to know precisely what though. Tyres provided just for quali seemed a good idea to me, but the teams don't seem to support the idea for some reason.

They don't support it because qualifying tyres with a short one or two lap life proved very dangerous previously

Sorry, I wasn't specific enough. I meant qualifying tyres identical to race tyres, but only available for quali.

So, would you then also keep he current rule that the driver have to start on the same compound that he qualified on?

While there has been too many situations this and last season where drivers stayed in the pit to save tires, I don't think that was the reasoning behind Vettels decision in Monaco. Monaco was a one stop race, so effectively the drivers only needed to save one set of the softer compound tire and Vettel could have gone out for a qualifying run had he wanted to. I think they wanted to start on the harder compound, possibly because they didn't feel they were in a position to compete for pole. And knowing that a qualifying run on the harder compound would leave them at the rear anyway, they decided not to go out at all.

But while I don't feel your idea about qualifying would have changed anything in this particular case, it definitely would in the many cases where the teams save tires to use in the race. One thing maybe worth considering though, qualifying tires would lead to more qualifying runs and more entertainment for the spectators, but with more drivers on the track it might also make it harder for some drivers to get in an unimpeded fast lap.

Sophon

[rixalex]

I think we will have to agree to disagree here. Of course, cutting the corner gained him an advantage as opposed to having to run into Grosjean or Schumacher (which was his alternative), but that is not the question seen from a regularity standpoint. He is allowed to cut the corner to avoid an accident, but he is not allowed to gain an advantage by doing so as opposed to taking the regular route. So the question is, did he gain an advantage by cutting the corner compared to where he would have been on the track had Schumacher and Grosjean magically disappeared into thin air, allowing Vettel to follow the track. To my eyes the clip you provided (good find, thank you for that) shows that he came out in the same position (behind Massa) as he would have, if he had been able to stay on the track. And it seems the F1 commissioners agreed.

Sophon

My point is that what constitutes gaining an advantage, isn't a simple matter of looking at what place the driver was before they cut the corner and what place they were after. I think it is a bit more involved than that. It's possible for example to have gained an advantage by having not lost a place when it is likely that you would have. It's also possible to have gained an advantage by having extra speed in the straight, thanks to the corner cutting.

The fact that Vettel, and Vettel alone, was subject of an inquiry on corner cutting, suggests to me that there was an issue with his move that made it different from the other drivers' moves. If not, why were they also not under investigation?

Anyway, all that aside, i think on the main point i was making, that Vettel had a solid and successful race but one that was built from a fortuitous first few seconds, we are in agreement, are we not?

[rixalex]

Its hard to know precisely what though. Tyres provided just for quali seemed a good idea to me, but the teams don't seem to support the idea for some reason.

They don't support it because qualifying tyres with a short one or two lap life proved very dangerous previously

Sorry, I wasn't specific enough. I meant qualifying tyres identical to race tyres, but only available for quali.

So, would you then also keep he current rule that the driver have to start on the same compound that he qualified on?

While there has been too many situations this and last season where drivers stayed in the pit to save tires, I don't think that was the reasoning behind Vettels decision in Monaco. Monaco was a one stop race, so effectively the drivers only needed to save one set of the softer compound tire and Vettel could have gone out for a qualifying run had he wanted to. I think they wanted to start on the harder compound, possibly because they didn't feel they were in a position to compete for pole. And knowing that a qualifying run on the harder compound would leave them at the rear anyway, they decided not to go out at all.

But while I don't feel your idea about qualifying would have changed anything in this particular case, it definitely would in the many cases where the teams save tires to use in the race. One thing maybe worth considering though, qualifying tires would lead to more qualifying runs and more entertainment for the spectators, but with more drivers on the track it might also make it harder for some drivers to get in an unimpeded fast lap.

Sophon

I'd like to see all this business of Q1, Q2 and Q3 scrapped, and go back to keeping it simple. One hour. 12 laps per driver. To my mind it was much better then. Frankly i find qualifying a bit dull as it is, because you know that in Q1 and Q2, drivers aren't necessarily pushing as hard as they can. It's only the last three or four minutes in Q3 when things actually start getting interesting, and then because there are five or more cars all running at the same time, pretty much all you see is them coming over the line. When they had an hour, it was quite often possible to stay with a driver one an entire flying lap.

F1 over the last twenty years has been tinkered with so much. Of course with regards the cars and regulations on car spec, that has to be adjusted, but things like points and qualifying, didn't need to be changed, and shouldn't have been. They were a fundamental part of the sport. It's like in football the goal posts are a certain distance apart. You don't start messing about with that. You don't make the goal mouth bigger so that there will be more goals and more entertainment to keep the TV people happy. Well not unless you are happy cheapening the sport.

[F1fanatic]

I can't make up my mind about changing quali format back to the old format.

Quali is interesting now (IMO) as some drivers that everyone expected to reach Q3 - don't! Additionally, the cars are so close in quali (and the tyres are so important) that they don't run many laps. Consequently, it makes it more of a lottery - as it is often too late to rectify a 'bad' lap.

Sophon - Good point about some drivers in Q3 wanting to start the race on the harder tyre. But, if the rules were changed so that they MUST 'go out' if they qualify - they could always go out on the harder tyre. It would make no difference to them as whilst they will obviously end up at the bottom of Q3, they will anyway if they don't go out?

Does anyone know why the teams (or at least some teams) are against extra tyres being provided purely for quali?

[rixalex]

I can't make up my mind about changing quali format back to the old format.

Quali is interesting now (IMO) as some drivers that everyone expected to reach Q3 - don't! Additionally, the cars are so close in quali (and the tyres are so important) that they don't run many laps. Consequently, it makes it more of a lottery - as it is often too late to rectify a 'bad' lap.

Sophon - Good point about some drivers in Q3 wanting to start the race on the harder tyre. But, if the rules were changed so that they MUST 'go out' if they qualify - they could always go out on the harder tyre. It would make no difference to them as whilst they will obviously end up at the bottom of Q3, they will anyway if they don't go out?

Does anyone know why the teams (or at least some teams) are against extra tyres being provided purely for quali?

If we go down the route of forcing them to go out in Q3, it will of course also require thinking about how to make sure they do a competitive lap, and not just go out and come back in again.

[F1fanatic]

I can't make up my mind about changing quali format back to the old format.

Quali is interesting now (IMO) as some drivers that everyone expected to reach Q3 - don't! Additionally, the cars are so close in quali (and the tyres are so important) that they don't run many laps. Consequently, it makes it more of a lottery - as it is often too late to rectify a 'bad' lap.

Sophon - Good point about some drivers in Q3 wanting to start the race on the harder tyre. But, if the rules were changed so that they MUST 'go out' if they qualify - they could always go out on the harder tyre. It would make no difference to them as whilst they will obviously end up at the bottom of Q3, they will anyway if they don't go out?

Does anyone know why the teams (or at least some teams) are against extra tyres being provided purely for quali?

If we go down the route of forcing them to go out in Q3, it will of course also require thinking about how to make sure they do a competitive lap, and not just go out and come back in again.

But that's what I'm trying to say. If additional tyres were provided (purely for quali), then those that know they're going to qualify at the bottom of the session anyway should not have any problem going out on the tyre of their choice to put in a 'good' lap.

[rixalex]

I can't make up my mind about changing quali format back to the old format.

Quali is interesting now (IMO) as some drivers that everyone expected to reach Q3 - don't! Additionally, the cars are so close in quali (and the tyres are so important) that they don't run many laps. Consequently, it makes it more of a lottery - as it is often too late to rectify a 'bad' lap.

Sophon - Good point about some drivers in Q3 wanting to start the race on the harder tyre. But, if the rules were changed so that they MUST 'go out' if they qualify - they could always go out on the harder tyre. It would make no difference to them as whilst they will obviously end up at the bottom of Q3, they will anyway if they don't go out?

Does anyone know why the teams (or at least some teams) are against extra tyres being provided purely for quali?

If we go down the route of forcing them to go out in Q3, it will of course also require thinking about how to make sure they do a competitive lap, and not just go out and come back in again.

But that's what I'm trying to say. If additional tyres were provided (purely for quali), then those that know they're going to qualify at the bottom of the session anyway should not have any problem going out on the tyre of their choice to put in a 'good' lap.

My point was they might go out and in an effort to save tyre wear, and already accepting they'll end up bottom, just do a slow lap or two.

[F1fanatic]

But if the tyre was purely for quali, what would be the point of saving tyre wear?

Rather, there is a good chance that other drivers would elect to start the race on the harder tyre - giving them the chance to compete against those drivers?

[rixalex]

But if the tyre was purely for quali, what would be the point of saving tyre wear?

Rather, there is a good chance that other drivers would elect to start the race on the harder tyre - giving them the chance to compete against those drivers?

OK. With you.

[F1fanatic]

Did anyone stay up to watch quali? Must admit that I didn't (embarrassed emoticon) - I preferred to watch the repeat this a.m.

Anyone dedicated enough to stay up and watch the race in the early hours of tomorrow a.m.?

[rixalex]

Did anyone stay up to watch quali? Must admit that I didn't (embarrassed emoticon) - I preferred to watch the repeat this a.m.

Anyone dedicated enough to stay up and watch the race in the early hours of tomorrow a.m.?

Yep i was up last night watching it. Finished at 1am which isn't too uncivilised for me. Red Bull looked very strong as did Ferrari. McClaren were quite close but struggled more than they did in practice and ended up using more tyres, so go into the race today with fewer options in terms of strategy. I think there's quite a high chance, considering how good Red Bulls have been on race day this season, that Vettel will run away with this one, baring an incident. Alonso will be on the podium. As for the third driver on the podium, i think that's anyone's guess, but if i had to put money on it, it wouldn't be a McClaren. They just don't inspire any confidence. Perhaps they'll turn the corner today though. Who knows...

[Sophon]

Yep i was up last night watching it. Finished at 1am which isn't too uncivilised for me. Red Bull looked very strong as did Ferrari. McClaren were quite close but struggled more than they did in practice and ended up using more tyres, so go into the race today with fewer options in terms of strategy. I think there's quite a high chance, considering how good Red Bulls have been on race day this season, that Vettel will run away with this one, baring an incident. Alonso will be on the podium. As for the third driver on the podium, i think that's anyone's guess, but if i had to put money on it, it wouldn't be a McClaren. They just don't inspire any confidence. Perhaps they'll turn the corner today though. Who knows...

Agree that the Red Bulls looked very strong, there could easily be two Red Bulls on the podium. Except for the first race the McClarens have been stronger in practice and qualifying than in the race itself, so if that trend holds it doesn't bode well for Hamilton. Still, he is starting second so might be able to hold on to a podium finish. If I was a betting man I would probably go with:

1. Vettel

2. Alonso

3. Webber/Hamilton

Sophon