No Matter How Hard I Try

[CMX]

PJ,

The suggestion that international IQ tests have validity is wrong as well. Getting educational norms out of IQ tests and language equivalents is beyond us so far. Moreover, the differences within nations' peoples overlap mostly, so far as we have a clue. This nation's people are, however, at an earlier stage of education than 'modern states' and are less aware (leaders too, perhaps) of international standards.

Still, look at young people particularly and their recently assumed standards of style or the entire society's acceptance of materialism. Never ever is usually wrong. Everything changes.

Might take ten or twenty years, but in a few decades (economic circumstances permitting), you will scarcely recognize the country, let alone its driving habits.

Edited April 29, 2012 by CMX

[Paangjang]

Gets to all of us. That’s why there’s a topic about it every day on this expat forum. However nothing we do about it is going to change them, ever. Correct?

PJ,

No, totally wrong. The word ever in your question is more wrong than wrong itself..

The suggestion that international IQ tests have validity is wrong as well. The nation's people are, however, at an earlier stage of education than 'modern states' and are less aware (leaders too, perhaps) of international standards. Still, look at young people particularly and their assumed standards of style or the entire society's acceptance of materialism. Never ever is usually wrong.

So you disagree? You think whatever a bunch of foreigners do or say about this is ever going to change anything. The problem starts at home. They need to sort this problem out themselves as Thais, us Farang moaning about it on an internet forum isn't going to change anything. How can you disagree? So you think we CAN do something about it as foreigners. Okay, any ideas? Maybe as you say we're all more wronger than wrong. Get in the real world mate. WE will never change them, and why should we???

[Robroy]

Come to Phnom Penh for a week - you will be cured.

its the one major problem i have with thailand, their disregard for care when driving will force me to leave.

[udonguy]

A few things.. I think MOST thai drivers are quite good, as they HAVE to be. I think in general, they are more alert, as a result of the dangers on the road.

I also think Thai's are able to get a lot of vehicles through congested areas, where in my own country would result in a major traffic jam.

The negative... I think the number of bad drivers is large in comparison to other places. And, they're never taken off the road. I see about 1 accident per week on Canal road in between the royal flora and CMU. Usually in one of two places, often a single car crash.. That's actually a HUGE number of accidents.. What would that number be in other countries? But again, it's not most people driving like fools, it's that 2 or 3 out of a hundred, that make the roads seem like a free for all.

I don't have a problem with the DIFFERENCES of thai drives and their western counterparts.. I have a problem with the DANGERS presented by a small percentage of them. I don't get my panties up in a bunch when they form an extra lane, or something similar.. I have a problem with the RISKS that some of these people take with little to know reward.. Passing in tight traffic, only to pass one car, and be stuck behind another.. All the while risking hitting some on coming traffic. this stuff is just dumb.

But hey, it happens EVERYWHERE!! Just like you could get lung cancer whether you smoke or you don't!! So, you might as well smoke!!

'quite good'? hmmm

anyway the point is much more that Thai drivers are more selfish rather than good or bad drivers.

Overtaking to gain the smallest advantage, not giving way - turning whenever the thought takes them without indicating and I could go on and on. It has been my experience they they never let anyone out when someone is trying to turn or exit a soi onto another road - they will rather drive their car in front to stop you than give way.

For me the obvious mataphore for this is FLASHING

in the west flashing means 'you go' or 'thank you' here it means 'GET OUT OF MY WAY'

[CMX]

PJ,

Sorry I was not clear about this part. We expats and tourists who offer suggestions as advice will get as much attention as visitors or immigrants in OZ, UK. or USA - none.

But as the media (Thai newspapers and TV) more and more inform the public of other standards, and as leaders accept the harsh statistics, when folks here are ready to listen outside - then their decisions may well be learned from abroad, Japan or China perhaps.

My indignation, such as it was, was the suggestion that any oriental nation's people had a lower IQ than ours in the West. We contributors here on ThVi don't always evince a high standard (see my confusing statement above).

[Paangjang]

PJ,

Sorry I was not clear about this part. We expats and tourists who offer suggestions as advice will get as much attention as visitors or immigrants in OZ, UK. or USA - none.

But as the media (Thai newspapers and TV) more and more inform the public of other standards, and as leaders accept the harsh statistics, when folks here are ready to listen outside - then their decisions may well be learned from abroad, Japan or China perhaps.

My indignation, such as it was, was the suggestion that any oriental nation's people had a lower IQ than ours in the West. We contributors here on ThVi don't always evince a high standard (see my confusing statement above).

Agree with what your saying, think you misread my post. Either that or your playing the loosing face game??

I just popped out to the bank, was driving more cautiously today after reading all these posts.

Me and my girlfriend now agree that most foreign tourists can't ride mopeds (especially two up) and most Thais can't drive cars sensibly. Oh and some Thais can't ride mopeds sensibly either, oh and after reading this topic i understand that some Thais can't even walk properly in a crowded street! I don't think the mrs will agree with that one though, not worth the agro asking

[orang37]

... snip ... The average IQ of a Thai adult is lower than the average IQ of a British 16 year old kid!

So-called "IQ" tests have long been dis-credited as valid across cultures, or even valid within sub-groups within cultures: the primary thing they measure is dominant-culture verbal abilities, and specific knowledge transmitted through school systems which are dominant-culture-bound in nature.

Driving requires: reflexes, motor-skills, mechanical skills, paying attention, awareness of other drivers and road traffic, knowledge of "rules of the road," and some motivation to follow said rules: or some fear of punishment for not following said rules.

Your argument of "diminished capacity" of IQ of Thai people in general resulting in current driving behavior is a form of racist stereotype based on a distorted intellectual premise.

Now, the extent to which drivers here may be stoned, drunk: that's another issue. Another discussion, and one which might consider the extent of widespread alcoholism in other "western countries," and its relation to vehicular accidents, and deaths, where drugs or alcohol are involved.

That broad social-stresses resulting from economic failure and insecurity, can also trigger a higher rate of suicide [1], and suicide which is carried out by using motor vehicles is dramatically evinced by the spate of current suicides in Greece [2].

However, I draw no conclusion relevant to Thailand from those statistics about Greece: I simply use them here to point to the possible multiple causes of what seems to us like "insane" road behavior in Thailand.

My own personal opinion, already stated on this thread, is that what we (westerners) perceive, infer, as a general lack of socialization to (and "internalization of") our own cultural construct of the "rule of law" reflects not the presence of culture: but its absence.

We ascribe to what is "missing" some active principle of "broad malevolent" intent, rather than just individual selfishness and unawareness. We ascribe to an absence of what our culture has thoroughly trained us to consider essential awareness of others on the road and danger, a deliberate attitude of "violation."

The simpler, Occam-Razor, hypothesis, is that the chaos in driving, and the resulting slaughter, are a result of absence of norms, plus a variety of exacerbating factors (being drunk, stoned, being over-worked, stressed, being pissed off in a society where to show that face-to-face in direct interpersonal relations is off-the-books, etc.).

All that said, I do personally believe that the drivers of big, new, jumbo-sized, honking, expensive vehicles, are frequently driving with a blatant f*k you attitude.

~o:37;

[1] "In a country that has had one of the lowest suicide rates in the world, a surge in the number of suicides in the wake of an economic crisis has shocked and gripped the Mediterranean nation - and its media - before a May 6 election." Reuters

"Before the financial crisis began wreaking havoc in 2009, Greece had one of the lowest suicide rates in the world 2.8 per 100,000 inhabitants. There was a 40 per cent rise in suicides in the first half of 2010, according to the Health Ministry.

There are no reliable statistics on 2011 but experts say Greece’s suicide rate has probably doubled to about 5 per 100,000. That is still far below levels of 34 per 100,000 seen in Finland or 9 per 100,000 in Germany. Attempted suicides and demand for psychiatric help has risen as Greece struggles to cope with the worst economic crisis since World War Two." Reuters

"Suicides increased by 18% in 2010 from the previous year, according to Reuters news agency. The number of suicides in Athens alone rose over 25% last year." Reuters quoted in BBC article

[2] "To avoid stigmatizing their families, some suicidal Greeks deliberately crash their cars, which police often charitably report as accidents. Families often try to cover up a suicide so their loved ones can be buried because the Greek Orthodox church refuses to officiate at burials of people who commit suicide." Reuters

Edited April 29, 2012 by orang37

[theblether]

In trying to point out that compliance with 'modern' standards of highway safety takes time in a society jumping from an agrarian to post-industrial technology, I did not in any way suggest that Thais are stupid. Nor did I wish to imply that laws and enforcement either should or could not change for the better, as we all agree.

Mine was an attempt to strike a balance against the judgmental indignation that some carry whenever they go to a foreign region - the notion that people should automatically do things our way right now and if they don't, they are inferior in some way.

As theblether points out, it would take a government willing to pass unpopular (seat belts come too mind from my nation) safety laws. It would require a police force so much dedicated to the public good that it would be willing to enforce unpopular laws and face the displeasure of the public. My thought was that these things take a while to evolve. I give you the history of the evolution of British parliament (who really decided what it should do, as it grew in power?)

Finally, common sense has been mentioned. I agree that such a standard is society's creation. And in fact (drunk drivers and speeders aside), most Thais drive according to their common sense. For example, they stay on the correct side if the road, so far as i can tell. Also, Thai drivers rarely stop before entering a main street from a soi. Most of us are aware of this and stay away from the left or are ready to stop. Very strange, but a habit fixed in the mix. We're aware of the wide turn, where the driver will swing right (sometimes half a lane) in order to make the left turn, as if going onto a narrow soi or driving an articulated truck. Those of us who don't learn these habits are vulnerable.

Basically, I feel that the whole world will drive in concert according to the same rules - about the time we give up wars as solutions, arguably a higher goal yet.

In trying to point out that compliance with 'modern' standards of highway safety takes time in a society jumping from an agrarian to post-industrial technology, I did not in any way suggest that Thais are stupid. Nor did I wish to imply that laws and enforcement either should or could not change for the better, as we all agree.

Mine was an attempt to strike a balance against the judgmental indignation that some carry whenever they go to a foreign region - the notion that people should automatically do things our way right now and if they don't, they are inferior in some way.

As theblether points out, it would take a government willing to pass unpopular (seat belts come too mind from my nation) safety laws. It would require a police force so much dedicated to the public good that it would be willing to enforce unpopular laws and face the displeasure of the public. My thought was that these things take a while to evolve. I give you the history of the evolution of British parliament (who really decided what it should do, as it grew in power?)

Finally, common sense has been mentioned. I agree that such a standard is society's creation. And in fact (drunk drivers and speeders aside), most Thais drive according to their common sense. For example, they stay on the correct side if the road, so far as i can tell. Also, Thai drivers rarely stop before entering a main street from a soi. Most of us are aware of this and stay away from the left or are ready to stop. Very strange, but a habit fixed in the mix. We're aware of the wide turn, where the driver will swing right (sometimes half a lane) in order to make the left turn, as if going onto a narrow soi or driving an articulated truck. Those of us who don't learn these habits are vulnerable.

Basically, I feel that the whole world will drive in concert according to the same rules - about the time we give up wars as solutions, arguably a higher goal yet.

We are in broad agreement.

The Thais are easily capable of learning higher standards, it will take government and police intervention to do so. As I mentioned earlier we are seeing a difference in CM already with helmet compliance. In this case foreigners showing up and expressing amazement at some of the worst driving practises is a perfectly valid point of view.

@TommoPhysicist

The laws that the US have effectively imposed on Thailand are primarily in the field of child safety. I for one agree with that intervention, I have no doubt you do too. It would be a bridge too far to expect the US or any foreign body to start imposing road safety laws in Thailand however it would not be a bridge too far of some NGO's and the UN agencies started to intervene at a government level to try to mollify the carnage.

To a certain extent I think they would be pushing against an open door.

[uptheos]

As I mentioned earlier we are seeing a difference in CM already with helmet compliance.

Helmet compliance is the easy option and just requires the BIB to station themselves without moving a muscle (not during the hottest hours though) at the junction of a road and milk poor kids out of what money they have. These kids are usually only a danger to themselves. When I see traffic cops at traffic lights, crossings, running red lights, looking for mobile phone users and giving chase, then progress will have been made. This will not happen....can you just see a cop on a beaten up old Honda Click chasing and flagging down a red plated Merc.......in your dreams!

Edited April 29, 2012 by uptheos

[how241]

Their real personalites come out. It's easier to be yourself when hiding your face inside your metal box on wheels.

That happens most everywhere in the world.

[TommoPhysicist]

@TommoPhysicist

The laws that the US have effectively imposed on Thailand are primarily in the field of child safety. I for one agree with that intervention, I have no doubt you do too. It would be a bridge too far to expect the US or any foreign body to start imposing road safety laws in Thailand however it would not be a bridge too far of some NGO's and the UN agencies started to intervene at a government level to try to mollify the carnage.

To a certain extent I think they would be pushing against an open door.

And yet when I (helmet) drive my m/c past the helmet police and my wife (helmet) is on the back holding baby (sun bonnet) in her arms they don't stop us.

[transam]

@TommoPhysicist

The laws that the US have effectively imposed on Thailand are primarily in the field of child safety. I for one agree with that intervention, I have no doubt you do too. It would be a bridge too far to expect the US or any foreign body to start imposing road safety laws in Thailand however it would not be a bridge too far of some NGO's and the UN agencies started to intervene at a government level to try to mollify the carnage.

To a certain extent I think they would be pushing against an open door.

And yet when I (helmet) drive my m/c past the helmet police and my wife (helmet) is on the back holding baby (sun bonnet) in her arms they don't stop us.

Perhaps a baby isn't looked at here as anything important.

[theblether]

As I mentioned earlier we are seeing a difference in CM already with helmet compliance.

Helmet compliance is the easy option and just requires the BIB to station themselves without moving a muscle (not during the hottest hours though) at the junction of a road and milk poor kids out of what money they have. These kids are usually only a danger to themselves. When I see traffic cops at traffic lights, crossings, running red lights, looking for mobile phone users and giving chase, then progress will have been made. This will not happen....can you just see a cop on a beaten up old Honda Click chasing and flagging down a red plated Merc.......in your dreams!

gotta start somewhere!!!!

[eek]

Just came back from Tesco Lotus at JJ market. Saturday traffic is like go carting, but without the fun aspect of knowing you're safe if you crash.

As an aside, its the same INSIDE of Tesco Lotus.

I wonder if trolley driving reflects a persons driving ability?

I hope not.

Edited May 5, 2012 by eek

[CMX]

Helmet compliance is the easy option and just requires the BIB to station themselves without moving a muscle (not during the hottest hours though) at the junction of a road and milk poor kids out of what money they have. These kids are usually only a danger to themselves. When I see traffic cops at traffic lights, crossings, running red lights, looking for mobile phone users and giving chase, then progress will have been made. This will not happen....can you just see a cop on a beaten up old Honda Click chasing and flagging down a red plated Merc.......in your dreams!

Not to defend the total picture of enforcement here, but I'm sure that if BIB spend time putting helmets on kids, that probably is the best focus they can have from the point of view of saving lives. As for money, kids and others can buy a helmet for half the price of the fine, so the folks without them are doing so by choice, just as I didn't want to use my seat belt for a long while.

That is, I argue that the most efficient use of police regarding vehicle traffic, from the point of view of saving lives and serious harm to citizens, is helmet enforcement. When compliance is v. high (and it is improving, except perhaps on weekends), then it would be OK to alter the central aim to the next most dangerous ?? Thai driving practice (drink-driving??).

After all, auto drivers are armoured.

Edited May 6, 2012 by CMX

[65Craig]

As I mentioned earlier we are seeing a difference in CM already with helmet compliance.

Helmet compliance is the easy option and just requires the BIB to station themselves without moving a muscle (not during the hottest hours though) at the junction of a road and milk poor kids out of what money they have. These kids are usually only a danger to themselves. When I see traffic cops at traffic lights, crossings, running red lights, looking for mobile phone users and giving chase, then progress will have been made. This will not happen....can you just see a cop on a beaten up old Honda Click chasing and flagging down a red plated Merc.......in your dreams!

Wow theBlether, we see things very different. I've been coming to Thailand since '94 and I have seen very little change in Helmet usage. While I admittedly do seem to see more people wearing of the half-dome helmet varieties, but I'd say the majority of them either have the chin strapped un buckled, or so loose (not strapped tight to the chin), that it makes the helmet useless in the event of a high speed collision.

Anyway, I was at a Cafe near where a police helmet check-point was and I just observed. It was sad to see the large number of people who took off their helmets immediately after passing through the check-point. Also, noticed a lot of motorbikes stop and turn around proceeding to drive in the wrong direction to avoid the tickets.

[driedmango]

As someone who has been in 4 traffic accidents as a passanger in my home country, I get very nervous in even the best spaced out traffic and a modern car with airbags.

Its one thing that causes me the most stress is getting in traffic in Thailand, the cabs in BKK to the airport at 4 am ? lol..

I basiclly have to take the train as much as I can, tell every tuk tuk I will pay a little tip if he goes slow and careful, and basiclly avoid traffic at all costs.

I will say though, the worst I saw was drunk scooters tourists and local taxies on the narrow road around koh chiang, I could have basicly punched a few morons driving their bikes around drunk if they would have stopped, and the taxies going 100 kms threw in places with no sidewalks and walkers everywere..

Anways...

Edited May 7, 2012 by driedmango

[Semper]

I wonder if trolley driving reflects a persons driving ability?

I think it does.

[ARISTIDE]

If one's in trouble, I suggest we tip the mall cops.

I wonder if trolley driving reflects a persons driving ability?

I think it does.

[ianf]

I was going to respond but all of a sudden.........

This morning three of us cycling down the Canal Road at about 30/32 kmh; A car pulls alongside in order to turn left in front of us - immediately in front of us. The driver totally ignored the fact that we were alongside her, she had seen us because otherwise she would have mowed us down from behind. Crass stupidity? Ignorance? Or a total inability to drive? All three methinks.

A couple of weeks ago I was heading down the Canal Road in the other direction (on my bicycle) when a motorcyclist thought it intelligent to undertake me to the left and then immediately turn right in front of me, taking me with him. On this occasion I used my track cycling skills and hung on to his shirt, thus not falling off. By the time he stopped his shirt was ripped off his back ........

You have to have your wits about you in this land of smiles .........