Middle Class In Thailand

[kerryk]

Greg if I read it right you have it wrong. Your first table is income not wealth.

Wealth is US .80 Thailand .71

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_distribution_of_wealth

[mjj]

Isn't class becoming an out of date concept these days?

In a word NO.

Class is recorded in the earliest records of human society, it is not going to disappear anytime soon.

As DP25 points out, masses of people have been convinced that consumerism is a desirable life goal, only now to find they can't afford the credit that was paying for the dream. Declaring class dead, while the worship of wealth and conspicuous consumption has left the developed world bankrupt seems to me to be a tad premature, if not a classic case of focusing on the wrong issue.

So how can you define class today?

The notion of the working class family with the patriarch or matriarch declaring what was good enough for me is good enough for my children is virtually dead in all but a minority of cases. Most parents want their children to succeed through school and work. But what is more important, the job title or the money and choices they make?

In my wifes village their is a family that have some rubber trees and are what we would call poor. However, the mother has saved and scaped the money together for her youngest to go to uni and hopefully she will get a job in the govt in the minor legal divisions to start with and who knows where that could lead.

Another family I know have a lot more land, all the children have been to uni, an uncle is a head of a village, they enjoy foriegn holidays, but they all decided to work the trees as they can make more money.

These type of families are much more common than years ago, so the notion of categorising people into classes by the traditional standards becomes quite blurry.

If a child goes to a top private school or uni and fits in with thoses around them, does the definition of class change depending on whether their parents are Wayne Rooney or a surgeon?

Class is/was always used to describe someones standing in society, but with the way thing are today they do not. As you pointed out, there are the middle classes that live on credit and there are also the working classes that have money and use it in a way that the middle classes would. So who is higher in society?

[WilliamCave]

Read almost all the responses here and really good reading on people's view of class of people

Makes me wonder were I am in the class ranking here I think most farang are poor compared to there Thai counterparts from what I see. I was talking to some Thais about this and they did tell me many ties are in very bad det to income ratio. In nontaburi there are many areas with projects with home well over 10 million baht 20 and 30 million baht homes. There are a lot of rich people here the size of the homes the cars they drive schools they go to. I think there are more million dollar homes in nontaburi than all Canada

So were do I fit in all this not to share live in a 4 bedroom house 3 baths drive a nice vehicle go out when I want travel good education. In Canada I would be considered middle class by my income and assets but here in Thailand I feel no were near middle class when I see all the money around here that the Thais have there homes cars how they dress. Thailand to me is not as poor as some people think.

[tutsiwarrior]

when we first moved into our house 10 years ago there was an old chinese guy that personally delivered crates of soda and beer to our house on his motorbike...then, a while later a minimarket was built on the street corner nearby and lo, it was the old chinese guy moving upmarket from his beer and soda distributorship...he now controls storage areas along the length of our street and also deals in home appliances but he's still the old guy with the baggy trousers and flip flops that we all know...a very friendly chap and he gives me a big welcome when I turn up at home after a long assignment abroad...

his kids are confident and educated and run his operation...his success is reflected in their demeanor as they could run the whole town if they wanted to...he is chinese and has access to resources that ordinary thais don't but it's been very interesting observing his success over the years...

Edited May 5, 2012 by tutsiwarrior

[PattayaParent]

But purely on the money scale of which USA is apparently classified they earn more than the President so should be Upper Middle Class.

Irrelevant, most of those willing to suffer the job aren't motivated by money. But once they're done (max 8 years) then they can make plenty from connections and speaking engagements. The salary is a joke, a mere token, set to show it's a public service.

But it's still over US$200,000 a year, and what percentage of the US earn that?

Besides the argument is that money determines class in US, not the motivation behind earning the money, which is why a porn star or a hooker can be middle class under that definition.

[gregb]

Greg if I read it right you have it wrong. Your first table is income not wealth.

Wealth is US .80 Thailand .71

http://en.wikipedia....ution_of_wealth

The Gini index says absolutely nothing about income or wealth. The Gini index only looks at wealth disparity. If there was only $1 in the entire country and 100 people, but every person had exactly 1 cent, then you would obtain a perfect Gini coefficient of 0. Everyone would be eating dirt and grass, but they would all be equally destitute.

Thailand has distributed its complete money supply to the population in nearly exactly the same way that the US has distributed its money supply to the population. And Singapore has done a significantly worse job of wealth distribution than Thailand.

My point is that it is ridiculous to accuse Thailand and the Thai elite of neglecting its poor, when mathematically the US is doing exactly as bad. But forget about the despicable Thais and equally disgusting Americans for a moment. Those socialist European countries get it a little better. Of course the UK is far behind the countries on the continent though when it comes to properly spreading the wealth. Clearly the UK needs less capitalism, higher taxes and more money of that money to be given poor immigrants.

The take away from this is not that developing countries have extreme wealth disparity and industrialized countries don't, because that isn't supported by the data. Instead, it is unchecked capitalism leads to wealth disparity. And the more unchecked capitalism you have, the more likely it is that you will suffer from extreme concentrations of wealth. If Thailand doesn't want Gini coefficient to be as bad as the USA's, then they will need to adopt a socialist economy just like the old world countries in the EU.

Otherwise, it is time to stop picking on the Thais, when they are simply copying the antics of the current empire de jure. When the US and Singapore shape up, then it might be time to condemn the Thais.

[gregb]

Greg if I read it right you have it wrong. Your first table is income not wealth.

Wealth is US .80 Thailand .71

http://en.wikipedia....ution_of_wealth

The Gini index says absolutely nothing about income or wealth. The Gini index only looks at wealth disparity. If there was only $1 in the entire country and 100 people, but every person had exactly 1 cent, then you would obtain a perfect Gini coefficient of 0. Everyone would be eating dirt and grass, but they would all be equally destitute.

Thailand has distributed its complete money supply to the population in nearly exactly the same way that the US has distributed its money supply to the population. And Singapore has done a significantly worse job of wealth distribution than Thailand.

My point is that it is ridiculous to accuse Thailand and the Thai elite of neglecting its poor, when mathematically the US is doing exactly as bad. But forget about the despicable Thais and equally disgusting Americans for a moment. Those socialist European countries get it a little better. Of course the UK is far behind the countries on the continent though when it comes to properly spreading the wealth. Clearly the UK needs less capitalism, higher taxes and more money of that money to be given poor immigrants.

The take away from this is not that developing countries have extreme wealth disparity and industrialized countries don't, because that isn't supported by the data. Instead, it is unchecked capitalism leads to wealth disparity. And the more unchecked capitalism you have, the more likely it is that you will suffer from extreme concentrations of wealth. If Thailand doesn't want Gini coefficient to be as bad as the USA's, then they will need to adopt a socialist economy just like the old world countries in the EU.

Otherwise, it is time to stop picking on the Thais, when they are simply copying the antics of the current empire de jure. When the US and Singapore shape up, then it might be time to condemn the Thais.

Sorry. I was called away for an emergency by my son and couldn't edit the above post before the time limit expired. I understood too late what you are saying is that you believe I was looking at the Gini coefficient for income, rather the Gini coefficient for wealth. However, if we look at wealth as you have posted here, then Thailand is dramatically better than the USA, rather than approximately equal. In fact, Thailand's total wealth distribution is much better than most European countries.

So no matter how you look at it, Thailand just isn't all that bad when compared to the West. I think either data set supports my basic premise.

[tutsiwarrior]

it's interesting about sex workers and their upward mobility...I was friendly with one (I was one of her clients) and we talked about her successes...she had just bought a car in Jakarta (the same ridiculous prices for cars there as in Thailand) but she had no license and couldn't drive it and she had a driver to take her to and from from the brothel where she worked...she had just enrolled her son in a good private school and she was very proud...

she said that the money was OK where she worked and expected to retire soon...maybe with the odd freelance client on the side...she really had her stuff together and I was impressed...her little boy had a future...

Edited May 5, 2012 by tutsiwarrior

[mjj]

it's interesting about sex workers and their upward mobility...I was friendly with one (I was one of her clients)and we talked about her successes...she had just bought a car in Jakarta (the same ridiculous prices for cars there there as in Thailand) but she had no license and couldn't drive it and she had a driver to take her to and from from the brothel where she worked...she had just enrolled her son in a good private school and she was very proud...

she said that the money was OK where she worked and expected to retire soon...maybe with the odd freelance client on the side...she really had her stuff together and I was impressed...

This is the kind of thing I was getting at. A person from working class roots with middle class sensibilities and financial power.

Edited May 5, 2012 by mjj

[nocturn]

Under-class: homeless / beggars / prostitutes

Lower-class: farmers / blue-collar workers / mom&pop shop owner-managers

Middle-class: office workers / business owners (excl. mom&pop shops)

Upper-class: land (or asset) owners that need not work (from birth to death)

I think you'd be surprised at just how much some 'mom & pop' shops make.

I would to put the owners of any established mom & pop shop in the lower middle-class bracket because the ones that I've known or become acquainted with have been able to send all of their children to university at least once and keep up with the Jonechais in the house renovating stakes.

agreed, a fine example is Sathit, proprietor of cheap charlie's on soi 11 who has university educated at least one son and acquired a small resort in hua hin selling beer in an alley.

The khao man gai and noodle seller in front of my house sells out daily by waiting as long as it takes. sometimes she is sold out by noon, sometimes at 5. She and her husband also start at 4 am. they have a lovely truck and 2 daughters in college.

The woman who sells coffee next to them, while i dont know if she has a vehicle, has a university educated daughter working nearby, and another one currently finishing up.

they certainly have the expectation to be middle class if they aren't already.

I respect em for it, they work alot harder than i do.

[astral]

Don't worry about it.

Unless you have a decent job you are unlikely to meet any middle class people.

[JurgenG]

One point we haven't discussed yet is the middle class outside Bangkok.

I regularly visit two medium size cities : Lampang and Chanthaburi. Just driving around the town, you can't help but have this strong feeling of middle class. Not outrageously rich but definitively not poor. For people living outside of Bangkok, in medium size cities, what is your feeling ?

[blazes]

Discussing 'middle class' using a British definition is useless ...

We Brits defined the class system, you Yanks don't have a class system.

As an American your opinion on the class system really doesn't count. Having a lot of money doesn't count.

One could argue that as we are in Thailand, that runs a feudal system, we should be defining who the Lords, Knights and serfs are.

Not sure whether Tommo means to divert the discussion from this weird UK/US narcissism when it comes to class, but he has, perhaps unintentionally, put his finger on the whole problem.

Modern western concepts of class do not fit the Thai scheme of things. As Tommo points out, Thailand is indeed a feudal society. It is one of the most contradictory societies in the whole world, since its social structure is entirely feudal (monarchy, monks, upper class, and then all the rest (the serfs and other assorted 'blue-collar" classes), but at the same time a country with Toyota, Honda, Apple and all the other global corporations busily making money here (and spreading a little around so that the serfs can go to the bank and borrow a million or so to buy the SUV that says nothing about class.)

The feudal class system is supported by the police and all levels of government....just as it was in Europe five hundred years ago. Thailand cannot wait that long for a resolution of this contradiction...and therefore it will eventually have to go through some kind of revolution, just as so many other Asiatic societies have done. It may be achieved peacefully, but maybe not.....

[JurgenG]

^ You can see the recent events from the past 6 years as the political establishment trying to catch up with the new economical realities

[fire and ice]

But a lot has changed and today the rural Thais may seem poor according to appearances and lifestyle, but many are owners of huge amounts of land that has been inherited from past generations, and although lacking in funds, cash flow and on low incomes, actually have a considerable wealth in assets, so these people could be categorised as upper working class or middle class.

Class difference is not defined by the amount of money of assets a person has.

Upper class is defined by birth, it is a closed class that nobody can enter, no matter how hard they work, or how much money they accumulate.

Middle class is defined by education and occupation, a farm worker cannot be middle class (if your work makes you sweat, you aren't middle class).

Lower class is also defined by education and occupation.

Middle class and upper class can both be poor in money and assets.

I am guessing you are from the UK although that is immaterial:-

Whilst you are technically correct in that "class" is something you are born into, Thailand does not actually have a class structure at all. It is like the USA which also does not have a class structure.

In both Thailand and the USA if you have a serious amount of wealth NOW you are upper class. If you lose it tomorrow say bye bye to your social circles as you are no longer part of it.

By contrast in England which does have a class structure, if you are born upper lass you stay upper class even if you are dirt poor. Likewise if you are born working class and strike it rich you are still considered working class. By this I mean you retain your friends and social circles and are unlikely to be accepted into new ones or dumped by your old ones.

Edited May 6, 2012 by fire and ice

[JurgenG]

Something interesting from the BBC

The historic anomaly has been the incredible concentration of wealth in Europe and America that followed the industrial revolution. Economists call that chasm that opened up between East and West "the great divergence".

Well, looking around the pool of my hotel, I realised that what I was witnessing was nothing less than the growing momentum of a "great convergence" of the world economy.

It will be many, many years before average incomes in developing economies like China and India match those in the West - if they ever do.

But what was clear from that sun lounger in a Kenyan holiday hotel was that, for the middle classes at least, the world is rapidly becoming a much more equal place.

http://www.bbc.co.uk...gazine-17954883

Edited May 6, 2012 by JurgenG

[JurgenG]

The point is I spent a few days in the Sheraton in Hua Hin last month and most of the customers were Thais.

[brit1984]

The point is I spent a few days in the Sheraton in Hua Hin last month and most of the customers were Thais.

Interesting article; having moved from London to Bangkok I have found the lives of the middle class in both cities to be strikingly similar

For sure, the lives of the middle classes are converging on a global scale

The lives of the upper classes converged a long time ago of course

[wintermute]

The only thing that matters in class differentiation is the amount of wealth you can retain and live on. It doesn't actually matter how you earned it. If some woman is able to provide a middle class lifestyle from spreading her legs then she earned it even if it is through a rather ignoble occupation. A person who barely survives payday to payday all tapped out at the end from vast expenditures or similarly in debt from their lifestyle isn't really middle class.

[PattayaParent]

The only thing that matters in class differentiation is the amount of wealth you can retain and live on. It doesn't actually matter how you earned it. If some woman is able to provide a middle class lifestyle from spreading her legs then she earned it even if it is through a rather ignoble occupation. A person who barely survives payday to payday all tapped out at the end from vast expenditures or similarly in debt from their lifestyle isn't really middle class.

You've just wiped out the majority of middle class of the world.

[maxme]

The only thing that matters in class differentiation is the amount of wealth you can retain and live on. It doesn't actually matter how you earned it. If some woman is able to provide a middle class lifestyle from spreading her legs then she earned it even if it is through a rather ignoble occupation. A person who barely survives payday to payday all tapped out at the end from vast expenditures or similarly in debt from their lifestyle isn't really middle class.

You've just wiped out the majority of middle class of the world.

The majority of low middle class.

[JurgenG]

Interesting article; having moved from London to Bangkok I have found the lives of the middle class in both cities to be strikingly similar

Definitively agree with you.

On a practical note, when traveling in Thailand I tend to follow the advises of publications and website that cater to the Thai middle class rather than those targeting foreign tourists. And I'm quite happy with that. Further proof that the Thai and western middle class are very similar in taste.

[wintermute]

The only thing that matters in class differentiation is the amount of wealth you can retain and live on. It doesn't actually matter how you earned it. If some woman is able to provide a middle class lifestyle from spreading her legs then she earned it even if it is through a rather ignoble occupation. A person who barely survives payday to payday all tapped out at the end from vast expenditures or similarly in debt from their lifestyle isn't really middle class.

You've just wiped out the majority of middle class of the world.

If you're living hand to mouth every paycheck spending as much as you earn then you aren't really middle class. You're one accident or redundancy away from falling into poverty as many Americans and Brits are learning this decade. Just look at the foreclosure and bankruptcy rates. Those people will almost never recover from this financial black hole especially if they accumulated debt to maintain their illusionary "middle class" life style.

[canuckoverseas]

You've just wiped out the majority of middle class of the world.

If you're living hand to mouth every paycheck spending as much as you earn then you aren't really middle class. You're one accident or redundancy away from falling into poverty as many Americans and Brits are learning this decade. Just look at the foreclosure and bankruptcy rates. Those people will almost never recover from this financial black hole especially if they accumulated debt to maintain their illusionary "middle class" life style.

Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen six, result happiness.

Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pound ought and six, result misery.

--Dickens

[GuestHouse]

If you're living hand to mouth every paycheck spending as much as you earn then you aren't really middle class. You're one accident or redundancy away from falling into poverty as many Americans and Brits are learning this decade. Just look at the foreclosure and bankruptcy rates. Those people will almost never recover from this financial black hole especially if they accumulated debt to maintain their illusionary "middle class" life style.

As the Chinese saying, most problems start by giving something the wrong name.

You need to adjust the quotation marks in order to adjust the term.

Now if we consider the term "Middle Class Life Style" we are confronted with the reality and the silliness of the position that wealth and consumer trappings make us middle class.

When we then consider the debt that people get into in order to attain this "Middle Class Life Style" and yes the point that many with the large house, multiple cars and the trappings for the "Middle Class Life Style" are a pay cheque away from having to sell their belongings to feed themselves - That is if they own their 'belongings'.

An American, let him be a politician if you will, who has been selling the success of the nation on achieving the 'Middle Class Life Style" can not feel too comfortable when he reads that the definition of "Middle Class" includes the very specific characteristic of 'Delayed Gratification" - If he is indeed a politician he might also feel discomfort of learning that the Middle Class are are also defined by their political activism.

Defining Middle Class on the basis of "Middle Class Life Style" is little more than the promotion of consumerism - a suckers lie.

You see them all over Thailand - hocked up to the hilt to pay for the trinkets of this middle class life style.

A life style paid for with personal debt is not 'Middle Class'.

[farang000999]

europeans love talking of middle class as it always leads to that which they hold most dear, entitlements.

[TommoPhysicist]

europeans love talking of middle class as it always leads to that which they hold most dear, entitlements.

Wrong

Lower class have entitlement,

Middle class pay their own way.

Socialism helps those less able or less fortunate.

Capitalism kicks them in the teeth when they are down.

Edited May 8, 2012 by TommoPhysicist

[WinnieTheKhwai]

Don't worry about it.

Unless you have a decent job you are unlikely to meet any middle class people.

I guess you live in Pattaya or Phuket, or a village in the sticks? In Bangkok or any urban center / provincial own it seems impossible to avoid them even if you wanted to?

[farang000999]

Thailand has distributed its complete money supply to the population in nearly exactly the same way that the US has distributed its money supply to the population. And Singapore has done a significantly worse job of wealth distribution than Thailand.

My point is that it is ridiculous to accuse Thailand and the Thai elite of neglecting its poor, when mathematically the US is doing exactly as bad. But forget about the despicable Thais and equally disgusting Americans for a moment.

This is terrible logic. The US has a minimum standard of living. Why should someone be guaranteed a % of a countries wealth as opposed to a minimum standard of living? So you think poor Americans who don't work deserve a higher % of the countries wealth?

[farang000999]

europeans love talking of middle class as it always leads to that which they hold most dear, entitlements.

Wrong

Lower class have entitlement,

Middle class pay their own way.

Socialism helps those less able or less fortunate.

Capitalism kicks them in the teeth when they are down.

i was talking of class in general.

in greece they riot against austerity yet still expect the free stuff to continue.

in america Obama is telling his sheep that the rich should pay more. the bush tax cuts on the highest bracket are < 5% of the deficit. pure politics. the rich may be corrupt but it is no solution. not even close.

so everyone in the west is going to have their cake and eat it too... until one day when the man comes around.