Middle Class In Thailand

[DP25]

Wealth is the definition of it in America.

No it is not.

http://en.wikipedia....an_middle_class

That's great and doesn't really disagree with anything I've said. The primary disagreement over constitutes middle class is a disagreement over income. Over riding all else is the discussion of average salaries various fields and education produce in determining whether they are middle class or not.

The other factors, education and occupation, are characteristics of the middle class because those characteristics tend to produce wealth. Wealth is what is used to determine class in America, you simply can not be rich and be part of the middle class. You can be a high school or college dropout and be part of the upper class. If you do no want to accept how we use the word that is fine, but a conversation about about the Thai middle class is only useful using the American terminology, not the British usage. What people are interested in is how many Thais are able to afford what we in America call a middle class lifestyle (I don't know what you call that in on your island). Achievement of a middle class lifestyle is seen as the primary goal for most people and what we try to orientate our society towards producing.

How many Thais are able to afford a middle class lifestyle (or whatever your island calls it)? I don't think anyone really cares how many middle class Thais exist under the British definition of the word, as it's largely a useless term

[JurgenG]

As TP has said, again and again and again.

The definition of middle class has nothing to do with income, money in the bank or car ownership.

It is defined by education, attitudes, social and political activity and occupation.

A university professor living in a council house, who does not own a car, rides to work on a second hand bike is middleclass. A guy who leaves school at 16 has no further or higher education, makes millions selling stuff off a market stall and lives in a house he bought in Kensington is not middle class.

Period!

I like this answer from GH. The threads are going to be much shorter from now on.

OP. Answer from GH. Period!

Thread closed

[wana]

As TP has said, again and again and again.

The definition of middle class has nothing to do with income, money in the bank or car ownership.

It is defined by education, attitudes, social and political activity and occupation.

A university professor living in a council house, who does not own a car, rides to work on a second hand bike is middleclass. A guy who leaves school at 16 has no further or higher education, makes millions selling stuff off a market stall and lives in a house he bought in Kensington is not middle class.

Period!

I like this answer from GH. The threads are going to be much shorter from now on.

OP. Answer from GH. Period!

Thread closed

Thread re-opened !

what right has a entrepreneurial t-shirt seller who makes millions not got to be included in the middle classe bracket ?

i would class him as high or higher as a university lecturerer who lives in a council estate and rides to work on a rusty old push bike

class like life is what you make of it ,just some seems to make more than others

iam not american ,but i prefer the american definition to the british defination ,based on snobbery or aristocracy and bloodlines ......

at least everyone has a fair chance in the USA system ........

[brit1984]

at least everyone has a fair chance in the USA system ........

the class system is not a competition

[wana]

at least everyone has a fair chance in the USA system ........

the class system is not a competition

so why is everyone fighting to move "up in class " then ?

[nocturn]

It seems Guesthouse is being pedantic and has fixated on the use of automobile ownership as an indicator of class.

Well, we know that it is certainly an indicator of economic status which is undeniably a key factor in social mobility.

Say what you want about the entrenched European notions regarding class, but those rigidly defined class barriers are falling fast, and economic capital enables almost every other type type of capital used to define class.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_mobility

Im with DP, we are discussing a lifestyle, not 19th century England

[brit1984]

at least everyone has a fair chance in the USA system ........

the class system is not a competition

so why is everyone fighting to move "up in class " then ?

nobody is fighting to move up in class

there is no reward for reaching a higher class, per se

it is merely a way to categorise people

[wana]

at least everyone has a fair chance in the USA system ........

the class system is not a competition

so why is everyone fighting to move "up in class " then ?

nobody is fighting to move up in class

there is no reward for reaching a higher class, per se

it is merely a way to categorise people

exactly ,and everyone aspires to be higher classification .....

homeless class woud love to be working class

working class would love to be middle class

middle class im sure would love to in the "elite class"

no person in his right mind is going to be happy being considered the lowest of the low

[arthurwait]

exactly ,and everyone aspires to be higher classification .....

homeless class woud love to be working class

working class would love to be middle class

middle class im sure would love to in the "elite class"

no person in his right mind is going to be happy being considered the lowest of the low

I iz from da streetz innit,

[brit1984]

exactly ,and everyone aspires to be higher classification .....

homeless class woud love to be working class

working class would love to be middle class

middle class im sure would love to in the "elite class"

no person in his right mind is going to be happy being considered the lowest of the low

I detect some confusion; let me explain...

The class system is a (crude) reflection of reality but it is not reality.

People's ambitions do not revolve around reaching a higher class category (not in the 21st century anyway). People aim to be wealthy, healthy, happy, famous, etc, and normally focus on more specific tangible goals (e.g. most homeless people would love to have a home).

Anyway, it is almost impossible to change class (as your class is defined as much by your parent's life as by yours). Therefore, the class-system has major limitations in the 21st century, given the abundance of inter-class marriages and the fact that most men no longer follow their father's occupation (and women work).

However, it is still a useful way to classify groups of people but it is no more than that (a classification system).

I hope this is now clear and I apologise for the distraction to this thread (which probably would have run more smoothly if the OP had not used the word "class")

[WhingeingMoaners]

It would be difficult to determine the exact percentage of the middle class in Thailand, but Thais tend to categorise people into four distinct classes: Upper Class, Middle Class, Working Class and Cattle Class, also known as Farangs. A census is required in order to establish the percentage in each group.

[GuestHouse]

......

What people are interested in is how many Thais are able to afford what we in America call a middle class lifestyle (I don't know what you call that in on your island). Achievement of a middle class lifestyle is seen as the primary goal for most people and what we try to orientate our society towards producing.

......

How many Thais are able to afford a middle class lifestyle (or whatever your island calls it)? I don't think anyone really cares how many middle class Thais exist under the British definition of the word, as it's largely a useless term

Again, you make an erroneous assumption which then leads you to false conclusions.

The definition of middle class I have given is not British or one from any island you seem to believe belongs to me - It is the international definition of Middle Class.

The United States has a class of people who precisely fit the international definition of middle class, Thailand has a class of people that fit this international class of people.

In Thailand, the US, Europe any nation you wish to choose this Middle Class of people exist - Regardless of their income they are educated, socially and politically active, vociferous and work in the professions that give them access to shape our societies.

The US creed of meritocracy, that any man can become anything is challenged by the existence of this Middle Class, because it is by enlarge the Middle Class (and their children) who get the opportunities - Accepting this truth does not sit well with the idea from Log Cabin to Oval Office.

You can admire wealth, you can place it on a pedestal and tell us is is the only useful measure of social value if you wish - but the people shaping the political and social discourse in the US are the American Middle Class. Not people defined by money (it is not their money that shapes the debate) it is their education, social and political activism, vociferous advocating and access to the levers of society through the jobs they do.

The only argument I hear from America's wealthy is why have they not got more of that wealth. And as we both know the demographic and the social debate has changed. It's not dollars that are chaining that debate its aspirations and values.

[GuestHouse]

Bringing this back to Thailand - The political divide Red and Yellow exhibits this same Middle Class (no not that count your dollars American Middle Class).

The Yellow movement and its wider support comes from within the educated, professional, socially and politically active Thai middle class.

The Red Movement was seen by someone as a chance to achieve his own aims - money poured in, the ranks of its supporters swelled and the election result achieved - Now that the political party it brought into power is perceived as walking away from promises it made to its support base and the aims and objectives of the Red movement a reaction is occurring - Dissent.

That dissent, the political discourse within the Red movement is coming from the educated, professional, socially and politically active Thai middle class who support that movement.

It is the educated, professional, socially and politically active Thai middle class who will determine the direction this country takes. They increasingly control the political and social discourse regardless of their income or the car they drive/don't drive.

[JurgenG]

exactly ,and everyone aspires to be higher classification .....

homeless class woud love to be working class

working class would love to be middle class

middle class im sure would love to in the "elite class"

no person in his right mind is going to be happy being considered the lowest of the low

But moving to an upper class doesn't always bring happiness. It's your position in the class to which you belong that brings satisfaction.

For example somewhat having a big promotion that allows him and his family to move to a neighborhood from an upper class, but where he will be at the bottom, is very likely to suffer from a lot of frustration because he wouldn't able to afford a lot of things his neighbour can. In the other hand staying in his old neighborhood where he will be at the top of the food chain will bring him much more satisfaction.

PS : the word "class" has a number of definition that are all perfectly acceptable. If some people can't make/understand the difference when english is their first language, I wonder how they survive in a country with a different language.... It's just a rhetorical question

Edited May 4, 2012 by JurgenG

[GuestHouse]

Jurgen, I doubt very much that social class has anymore to do with happiness than does money.

A person moving to an upperclass neihgbourhood might well be content with lower street crime, better public services and having their children in a better school while not concerned at all by the wealth gap between themselvrs and others in the community.

Indeed it would be classic middleclass behaviour to forgoe disposable income and the trapping that brings by buying a property in an expensive area inorder to gain access for their children to better schooling than might be available in cheapet neighbourhoods - Its got nothing to do with money!

[PattayaParent]

As TP has said, again and again and again.

The definition of middle class has nothing to do with income, money in the bank or car ownership.

It is defined by education, attitudes, social and political activity and occupation.

A university professor living in a council house, who does not own a car, rides to work on a second hand bike is middleclass. A guy who leaves school at 16 has no further or higher education, makes millions selling stuff off a market stall and lives in a house he bought in Kensington is not middle class.

Period!

That is the definition of middle class on your island. As I have pointed out, it is not used that way .............

You are not considered middle class in the US if you are poor, or lower class if you are rich.

So what is a "high class hooker" or a porn star considered seeing as they earn a lot of money?

Or a hillbilly that wins the lottery (think Jed Clampett)

Edited May 4, 2012 by PattayaParent

[thaihome]

Bringing this back to Thailand - The political divide Red and Yellow exhibits this same Middle Class (no not that count your dollars American Middle Class).

The Yellow movement and its wider support comes from within the educated, professional, socially and politically active Thai middle class.

The Red Movement was seen by someone as a chance to achieve his own aims - money poured in, the ranks of its supporters swelled and the election result achieved - Now that the political party it brought into power is perceived as walking away from promises it made to its support base and the aims and objectives of the Red movement a reaction is occurring - Dissent.

That dissent, the political discourse within the Red movement is coming from the educated, professional, socially and politically active Thai middle class who support that movement.

It is the educated, professional, socially and politically active Thai middle class who will determine the direction this country takes. They increasingly control the political and social discourse regardless of their income or the car they drive/don't drive.

GH, I agree with your post completely. In a sociological discussion of the political future of Thailand your usage of the definition by work and education is completely correct and they will indeed define the political future of Thailand. In the US, we are more likely to refer these types of people as the “White Collar” segment of the middle class.

But, to me, the content of the OP seemed to much more directed towards the number of people that fit an income based definition of “middle class” and not a pure social science one. The OP certainly was not in a political context.

TH

[DP25]

The definition of middle class I have given is not British or one from any island you seem to believe belongs to me - It is the international definition of Middle Class.

No, it's not. Read this to see what the US government thinks middle class is - hint - it's not what you do, it's what I do

http://www.commerce....orce-report-pdf

They even expend the definition beyond the purely income based definition normally used in America, as "Families at a wide variety of income levels aspire to be middle class and under certain circumstances can put together budgets that allow them to obtain a middle class lifestyle".

What is that lifestyle they aspire to that defines being middle class in America? "Middle class families aspire to home ownership, a car, college education for their children, health and retirement security and occasional family vacations" The current problem in the United States is that the middle class is shrinking, because "It is more difficult now than in the past for many people to achieve middle class status because prices for certain key goods – health care, college and housing – have gone up faster than income."

If you can afford those things in America, you are middle class, unless you are too rich. Being middle class is something that is achievable through careful planning and budgeting and sufficient income. That is the accepted definition used by almost everyone, from economists to politicians

The way you seem to be using it is simply not middle class in America, it is a subsection of the middle class. White collar or managerial class. They are part of the middle class, usually at the upper end of it because they have higher incomes. But in America anyone who has a sufficient income to afford a house, car for each adult, health care, retirement, college for their children, and family vacations is widely considered to be middle class by everyone.

So, how many people in Thailand can afford these things?

Edited May 4, 2012 by DP25

[nocturn]

As TP has said, again and again and again.

The definition of middle class has nothing to do with income, money in the bank or car ownership.

It is defined by education, attitudes, social and political activity and occupation.

A university professor living in a council house, who does not own a car, rides to work on a second hand bike is middleclass. A guy who leaves school at 16 has no further or higher education, makes millions selling stuff off a market stall and lives in a house he bought in Kensington is not middle class.

Period!

That is the definition of middle class on your island. As I have pointed out, it is not used that way .............

You are not considered middle class in the US if you are poor, or lower class if you are rich.

So what is a "high class hooker" or a porn star considered seeing as they earn a lot of money?

Or a hillbilly that wins the lottery (think Jed Clampett)

likely considered lower class, that is until a generation later when their children have finished university and assume their place amongst the ranks of the middle class.

seems the argument is circular.

[wana]

As TP has said, again and again and again.

The definition of middle class has nothing to do with income, money in the bank or car ownership.

It is defined by education, attitudes, social and political activity and occupation.

A university professor living in a council house, who does not own a car, rides to work on a second hand bike is middleclass. A guy who leaves school at 16 has no further or higher education, makes millions selling stuff off a market stall and lives in a house he bought in Kensington is not middle class.

Period!

That is the definition of middle class on your island. As I have pointed out, it is not used that way .............

You are not considered middle class in the US if you are poor, or lower class if you are rich.

So what is a "high class hooker" or a porn star considered seeing as they earn a lot of money?

Or a hillbilly that wins the lottery (think Jed Clampett)

likely considered lower class, that is until a generation later when their children have finished university and assume their place amongst the ranks of the middle class.

seems the argument is circular.

what about the likes of 50 cent or snoop dogg or jay-Z ?

Hundreds of millions of dollars each ,owning record labels ,recording studios and vast property portfolios

Are they still in the lowest class ?

[canuckoverseas]

The definition of middle class I have given is not British or one from any island you seem to believe belongs to me - It is the international definition of Middle Class.

No, it's not. Read this to see what the US government thinks middle class is - hint - it's not what you do, it's what I do

http://www.commerce....orce-report-pdf

They even expend the definition beyond the purely income based definition normally used in America, as "Families at a wide variety of income levels aspire to be middle class and under certain circumstances can put together budgets that allow them to obtain a middle class lifestyle".

What is that lifestyle they aspire to that defines being middle class in America? "Middle class families aspire to home ownership, a car, college education for their children, health and retirement security and occasional family vacations" The current problem in the United States is that the middle class is shrinking, because "It is more difficult now than in the past for many people to achieve middle class status because prices for certain key goods – health care, college and housing – have gone up faster than income."

If you can afford those things in America, you are middle class, unless you are too rich. Being middle class is something that is achievable through careful planning and budgeting and sufficient income. That is the accepted definition used by almost everyone, from economists to politicians

The way you seem to be using it is simply not middle class in America, it is a subsection of the middle class. White collar or managerial class. They are part of the middle class, usually at the upper end of it because they have higher incomes. But in America anyone who has a sufficient income to afford a house, car for each adult, health care, retirement, college for their children, and family vacations is widely considered to be middle class by everyone.

So, how many people in Thailand can afford these things?

I think you have the right idea. In western countries the middle class is composed of quite a large percentage of the population, while in a developing country the middle class would make up a comparatively smaller portion of the population. It has nothing to do with social status, it's just a measure of an individual's economic purchasing power.

Found interesting quote from google:

"Thailand is one of the most socially unequal countries in Asia. According to a Bank of Thailand report, the top 20 percent of the population controls 69 percent of the nation’s wealth as compared to just 1 percent for the lowest 20 percent. The average income for the bottom 20 percent is just 1,443 baht or $US45 a month—the official poverty line. As the economy contracted by 3.5 percent last year and credit dried up, it was the small farmers, businessmen and vendors, along with the working class, that were hardest hit. The resumption of economic growth and booming share prices this year have not alleviated the privations facing working people......The social tensions that have erupted in Bangkok are a harbinger of class struggles throughout the region and globally. The lavish affluence of the small minority who enriched themselves through speculation and the exploitation of cheap labour is not only on display in Bangkok but in major cities throughout Asia. The social divide in China and India, where a relative handful have grown fabulously wealthy at the expense of hundreds of millions of workers, will inevitably have socially explosive consequences."

As with most developing countries, the wealth seen in cities such as modern shopping malls and five star hotels, belies the reality that most people are still very poor. It's the exact same situation here in Egypt, though the wealth here is concentrated in even fewer hand. All it adds up to is a recipe for prolonged periods of unrest and economic uncertainty.

[PattayaParent]

As TP has said, again and again and again.

The definition of middle class has nothing to do with income, money in the bank or car ownership.

It is defined by education, attitudes, social and political activity and occupation.

A university professor living in a council house, who does not own a car, rides to work on a second hand bike is middleclass. A guy who leaves school at 16 has no further or higher education, makes millions selling stuff off a market stall and lives in a house he bought in Kensington is not middle class.

Period!

That is the definition of middle class on your island. As I have pointed out, it is not used that way .............

You are not considered middle class in the US if you are poor, or lower class if you are rich.

So what is a "high class hooker" or a porn star considered seeing as they earn a lot of money?

Or a hillbilly that wins the lottery (think Jed Clampett)

likely considered lower class, that is until a generation later when their children have finished university and assume their place amongst the ranks of the middle class.

seems the argument is circular.

But purely on the money scale of which USA is apparently classified they earn more than the President so should be Upper Middle Class.

[Trembly]

Under-class: homeless / beggars / prostitutes

Lower-class: farmers / blue-collar workers / mom&pop shop owner-managers

Middle-class: office workers / business owners (excl. mom&pop shops)

Upper-class: land (or asset) owners that need not work (from birth to death)

I think you'd be surprised at just how much some 'mom & pop' shops make.

I would to put the owners of any established mom & pop shop in the lower middle-class bracket because the ones that I've known or become acquainted with have been able to send all of their children to university at least once and keep up with the Jonechais in the house renovating stakes.

Edited May 4, 2012 by Trembly

[simple1]

The definition of middle class I have given is not British or one from any island you seem to believe belongs to me - It is the international definition of Middle Class.

No, it's not. Read this to see what the US government thinks middle class is - hint - it's not what you do, it's what I do

http://www.commerce....orce-report-pdf

They even expend the definition beyond the purely income based definition normally used in America, as "Families at a wide variety of income levels aspire to be middle class and under certain circumstances can put together budgets that allow them to obtain a middle class lifestyle".

What is that lifestyle they aspire to that defines being middle class in America? "Middle class families aspire to home ownership, a car, college education for their children, health and retirement security and occasional family vacations" The current problem in the United States is that the middle class is shrinking, because "It is more difficult now than in the past for many people to achieve middle class status because prices for certain key goods â€" health care, college and housing â€" have gone up faster than income."

If you can afford those things in America, you are middle class, unless you are too rich. Being middle class is something that is achievable through careful planning and budgeting and sufficient income. That is the accepted definition used by almost everyone, from economists to politicians

The way you seem to be using it is simply not middle class in America, it is a subsection of the middle class. White collar or managerial class. They are part of the middle class, usually at the upper end of it because they have higher incomes. But in America anyone who has a sufficient income to afford a house, car for each adult, health care, retirement, college for their children, and family vacations is widely considered to be middle class by everyone.

So, how many people in Thailand can afford these things?

I think you have the right idea. In western countries the middle class is composed of quite a large percentage of the population, while in a developing country the middle class would make up a comparatively smaller portion of the population. It has nothing to do with social status, it's just a measure of an individual's economic purchasing power.

Found interesting quote from google:

"Thailand is one of the most socially unequal countries in Asia. According to a Bank of Thailand report, the top 20 percent of the population controls 69 percent of the nationâ€s wealth as compared to just 1 percent for the lowest 20 percent. The average income for the bottom 20 percent is just 1,443 baht or $US45 a monthâ€"the official poverty line. As the economy contracted by 3.5 percent last year and credit dried up, it was the small farmers, businessmen and vendors, along with the working class, that were hardest hit. The resumption of economic growth and booming share prices this year have not alleviated the privations facing working people......The social tensions that have erupted in Bangkok are a harbinger of class struggles throughout the region and globally. The lavish affluence of the small minority who enriched themselves through speculation and the exploitation of cheap labour is not only on display in Bangkok but in major cities throughout Asia. The social divide in China and India, where a relative handful have grown fabulously wealthy at the expense of hundreds of millions of workers, will inevitably have socially explosive consequences."

As with most developing countries, the wealth seen in cities such as modern shopping malls and five star hotels, belies the reality that most people are still very poor. It's the exact same situation here in Egypt, though the wealth here is concentrated in even fewer hand. All it adds up to is a recipe for prolonged periods of unrest and economic uncertainty.

And in the USA 1% of the population owns 40% of the national wealth according to the following study URL: http://www.npr.org/2011/04/16/135472478/study-americas-wealth-not-widely-distributed

[GuestHouse]

DP25

You seem to be confusing the debt class, those who have gorged themselves on credit to live the American dream with people who can afford the lifestyle they aspire to. While at the same time unable to grasp that the educated, professional, socially and politically active middle class exist in the US and are far from being restricted to the upper middle class.

I do not deny that politicians refer to the middle class on an income basis - accepting the existence, roll and privillaged position of the "Bourgeoisie" in a nation founded on the myth of meritocracy is not easy.

Hey but switch Fox news back on, those guys are obsessed with this educated, socially and politically active middle class - they hate them with a vengience because they 'Fox' know exactly who dictates the social and political discouse - and as I said, you and I both know, the demography has changed and so has the social and political discourse.

[chops]

The definition of middle class I have given is not British or one from any island you seem to believe belongs to me - It is the international definition of Middle Class.

No, it's not. Read this to see what the US government thinks middle class is - hint - it's not what you do, it's what I do

http://www.commerce....orce-report-pdf

They even expend the definition beyond the purely income based definition normally used in America, as "Families at a wide variety of income levels aspire to be middle class and under certain circumstances can put together budgets that allow them to obtain a middle class lifestyle".

What is that lifestyle they aspire to that defines being middle class in America? "Middle class families aspire to home ownership, a car, college education for their children, health and retirement security and occasional family vacations" The current problem in the United States is that the middle class is shrinking, because "It is more difficult now than in the past for many people to achieve middle class status because prices for certain key goods â€" health care, college and housing â€" have gone up faster than income."

If you can afford those things in America, you are middle class, unless you are too rich. Being middle class is something that is achievable through careful planning and budgeting and sufficient income. That is the accepted definition used by almost everyone, from economists to politicians

The way you seem to be using it is simply not middle class in America, it is a subsection of the middle class. White collar or managerial class. They are part of the middle class, usually at the upper end of it because they have higher incomes. But in America anyone who has a sufficient income to afford a house, car for each adult, health care, retirement, college for their children, and family vacations is widely considered to be middle class by everyone.

So, how many people in Thailand can afford these things?

I think you have the right idea. In western countries the middle class is composed of quite a large percentage of the population, while in a developing country the middle class would make up a comparatively smaller portion of the population. It has nothing to do with social status, it's just a measure of an individual's economic purchasing power.

Found interesting quote from google:

"Thailand is one of the most socially unequal countries in Asia. According to a Bank of Thailand report, the top 20 percent of the population controls 69 percent of the nation’s wealth as compared to just 1 percent for the lowest 20 percent. The average income for the bottom 20 percent is just 1,443 baht or $US45 a monthâ€"the official poverty line. As the economy contracted by 3.5 percent last year and credit dried up, it was the small farmers, businessmen and vendors, along with the working class, that were hardest hit. The resumption of economic growth and booming share prices this year have not alleviated the privations facing working people......The social tensions that have erupted in Bangkok are a harbinger of class struggles throughout the region and globally. The lavish affluence of the small minority who enriched themselves through speculation and the exploitation of cheap labour is not only on display in Bangkok but in major cities throughout Asia. The social divide in China and India, where a relative handful have grown fabulously wealthy at the expense of hundreds of millions of workers, will inevitably have socially explosive consequences."

As with most developing countries, the wealth seen in cities such as modern shopping malls and five star hotels, belies the reality that most people are still very poor. It's the exact same situation here in Egypt, though the wealth here is concentrated in even fewer hand. All it adds up to is a recipe for prolonged periods of unrest and economic uncertainty.

Not the US. The middle class there is now quite small. I think Thailand is fairly egalitarian compared to the US. Says a lot about that country doesn't it?

[BigJohnnyBKK]

These terms don't in fact have any objective meaning but are socially defined, very much analogous to concepts of race IMO.

"Families at a wide variety of income levels aspire to be middle class and under certain circumstances can put together budgets that allow them to obtain a middle class lifestyle".

"Middle class families aspire to home ownership, a car, college education for their children, health and retirement security and occasional family vacations"

...

So, how many people in Thailand can afford these things?

The middle class **aspires** to those things, workers and below know they can never have them. Only a tiny fraction of educated professionals and small business owners in the States can actually afford these things anymore.

It's not that the middle class is shrinking, but everyone who isn't truly rich has been robbed of their share of economic growth and productivity.

Personally I'd put the actual ability to afford these things nowadays to be the definition of upper-middle class. The dividing line between working and middle would be whether you've got any savings at all, the latter mostly living hand-to-mouth. But I admit that's must my take on it.

But purely on the money scale of which USA is apparently classified they earn more than the President so should be Upper Middle Class.

Irrelevant, most of those willing to suffer the job aren't motivated by money. But once they're done (max 8 years) then they can make plenty from connections and speaking engagements. The salary is a joke, a mere token, set to show it's a public service.

[mjj]

Isn't class becoming an out of date concept these days? As we all know money opens doors and gives you opportunity and freedom. Many years ago the class system was more relevant because it was more difficult to move between the classes. People knew there place if you like. The working class just earnt money to provide the basics for there children, the middle classes focused more on education and professionalim and the upper class, well they just do what they want.

Today however, some of the middle classes cant afford the education that the working classes can, etc. sure you cant escape from 'your roots' but the traditional notion of class can change in 1 generation or less.

There will still be snobbery against the nouveau riche and the debate of taste, but is this really a matter of class.

[GuestHouse]

Isn't class becoming an out of date concept these days?

In a word NO.

Class is recorded in the earliest records of human society, it is not going to disappear anytime soon.

As DP25 points out, masses of people have been convinced that consumerism is a desirable life goal, only now to find they can't afford the credit that was paying for the dream. Declaring class dead, while the worship of wealth and conspicuous consumption has left the developed world bankrupt seems to me to be a tad premature, if not a classic case of focusing on the wrong issue.

[gregb]

The definition of middle class I have given is not British or one from any island you seem to believe belongs to me - It is the international definition of Middle Class.

No, it's not. Read this to see what the US government thinks middle class is - hint - it's not what you do, it's what I do

http://www.commerce....orce-report-pdf

They even expend the definition beyond the purely income based definition normally used in America, as "Families at a wide variety of income levels aspire to be middle class and under certain circumstances can put together budgets that allow them to obtain a middle class lifestyle".

What is that lifestyle they aspire to that defines being middle class in America? "Middle class families aspire to home ownership, a car, college education for their children, health and retirement security and occasional family vacations" The current problem in the United States is that the middle class is shrinking, because "It is more difficult now than in the past for many people to achieve middle class status because prices for certain key goods â€" health care, college and housing â€" have gone up faster than income."

If you can afford those things in America, you are middle class, unless you are too rich. Being middle class is something that is achievable through careful planning and budgeting and sufficient income. That is the accepted definition used by almost everyone, from economists to politicians

The way you seem to be using it is simply not middle class in America, it is a subsection of the middle class. White collar or managerial class. They are part of the middle class, usually at the upper end of it because they have higher incomes. But in America anyone who has a sufficient income to afford a house, car for each adult, health care, retirement, college for their children, and family vacations is widely considered to be middle class by everyone.

So, how many people in Thailand can afford these things?

I think you have the right idea. In western countries the middle class is composed of quite a large percentage of the population, while in a developing country the middle class would make up a comparatively smaller portion of the population. It has nothing to do with social status, it's just a measure of an individual's economic purchasing power.

Found interesting quote from google:

"Thailand is one of the most socially unequal countries in Asia. According to a Bank of Thailand report, the top 20 percent of the population controls 69 percent of the nation’s wealth as compared to just 1 percent for the lowest 20 percent. The average income for the bottom 20 percent is just 1,443 baht or $US45 a monthâ€"the official poverty line. As the economy contracted by 3.5 percent last year and credit dried up, it was the small farmers, businessmen and vendors, along with the working class, that were hardest hit. The resumption of economic growth and booming share prices this year have not alleviated the privations facing working people......The social tensions that have erupted in Bangkok are a harbinger of class struggles throughout the region and globally. The lavish affluence of the small minority who enriched themselves through speculation and the exploitation of cheap labour is not only on display in Bangkok but in major cities throughout Asia. The social divide in China and India, where a relative handful have grown fabulously wealthy at the expense of hundreds of millions of workers, will inevitably have socially explosive consequences."

As with most developing countries, the wealth seen in cities such as modern shopping malls and five star hotels, belies the reality that most people are still very poor. It's the exact same situation here in Egypt, though the wealth here is concentrated in even fewer hand. All it adds up to is a recipe for prolonged periods of unrest and economic uncertainty.

It is an interesting quote, isn't it?

Too bad it doesn't reflect reality. Google gini coefficient and then look at the table below to see how the distribution of wealth in various countries really compares in mathematically rigorous way.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/eco_gin_ind-economy-gini-index

Something you will immediately notice: Thailand has almost exactly the same income inequality as does the United States. Thailand is actually better than both Singapore and Malaysia. So trying to say that Thailand is worse because it is a "developing" country is total hogwash.

Of course, many naysayers will simply go right on insisting the Thai elite are so much worse than the US elite simply because they want to believe this is true. But the math doesn't lie. Thailand and the US are nearly equally unfair, and as far as countries go, there are 52 of them which are much worse.