Bangkok-Chiang Mai High Speed Rail Ready By 2018: Transport Ministry

[xavierr]

Those high speed trains are a waste of money, except for a few lines in a few places. They are expensive to build and to maintain and only a minority will use them because fares are almost as costly as airline tickets.

But they clearly benefit corrupt officials and construction companies involved in the project.

An overhaul and upgrading of the existing line or an improved conventional railway would be less costly, more efficient and would be far more relevant to the needs of the country and the average Thai citizen.

Edited May 24, 2012 by xavierr

[planr]

Is there any cost justification for this? Or is it about the Shinawatra clan?

HSR was first pushed in the early-mid 1990s around the time Thaksin entered politics but was then dropped after the 1997 financial crisis. It is unlikely he has been pushing it since the beginning. The most recent round of promotion for HSR really started picking up steam in 2008 under the PPP-led Samak administration. Some initial preliminary feasibility work was undertaken and the idea kept kicking around through Abhisit's administration, even going as far as a Market Sounding event. As there is a lot of money at stake and genuine interest from the Chinese (and less so the Japanese) in terms of financing, it makes political sense to keep it alive.

From a rational perspective, high speed rail is unnecessary in Thailand. The proposed budget for HSR should be used to accelerate the current double-tracking and rehabilitation efforts currently underway nationwide. This would lead to increased benefits in logistics (very important) and some small gains in passenger service. Certain corridors like Bangkok to Rayong could be provided with an upgraded passenger service such as an electrified meter-gauge system traveling around 150 km/h using existing tracks or just extending the Airport Link from Suvarnibhumi down south.

[jacnl2000]

On 2009-11-11:

"By The Nation

The economic ministers on Wednesday approved the Bt100, billion high-speed train construction in four routes, from Bangkok to Chiang Mai, Nong Khai, Chanthaburi and Padang Besar.

Deputy Prime Minister Korbsak Sabhavasu said that Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva instructed the Transport Ministry to first focus on the eastern route as it is the shortest. The detailed investment plan must be completed within 45 days, to be submitted to the Cabinet for approval by the end of this year."

The other newspaper added

"A feasibility study will also be made of the construction of rail tracks for high-speed trains on four routes: Bangkok-Chiang Mai (745km), Bangkok-Nong Khai (615km), Bangkok-Chanthaburi (330km), and Bangkok-Padang Besar (985km). The study is to be finished in three months."

2012-05-23: How time flies when you're having fun

Sorry, to have revived such an old thread. I'm just jumping around like a Dutch Naam related frog and checking dates ; - )

[OBLEDUT]

The Transport Minister has expressed confidence that the first high speed railway connecting Bangkok and Chiang Mai will be ready for service by 2018

Yeha right,more like 2118.

[bumpkin]

Another political vanity project. They would do far better to use half the money and upgrade all the lines in the country to a reasonable standard and double-track them where needed (to the South) for example.

Nobody really needs 350kph trains, but if they could lift Thailand's services reliably above 35kph it would be a start.

But then again, the Chinese are always happy to test unproven technology or engineering shortcuts in other countries before exposing their own citizens to the problems.

Not always true. The Chinese authorities are not strangers to the idea of doing the 'field tests' after the projects have been completed. They are not above inflicitng this on their own population. Sadly !

[bumpkin]

Is there any cost justification for this? Or is it about the Shinawatra clan?

HSR was first pushed in the early-mid 1990s around the time Thaksin entered politics but was then dropped after the 1997 financial crisis. It is unlikely he has been pushing it since the beginning. The most recent round of promotion for HSR really started picking up steam in 2008 under the PPP-led Samak administration. Some initial preliminary feasibility work was undertaken and the idea kept kicking around through Abhisit's administration, even going as far as a Market Sounding event. As there is a lot of money at stake and genuine interest from the Chinese (and less so the Japanese) in terms of financing, it makes political sense to keep it alive.

From a rational perspective, high speed rail is unnecessary in Thailand. The proposed budget for HSR should be used to accelerate the current double-tracking and rehabilitation efforts currently underway nationwide. This would lead to increased benefits in logistics (very important) and some small gains in passenger service. Certain corridors like Bangkok to Rayong could be provided with an upgraded passenger service such as an electrified meter-gauge system traveling around 150 km/h using existing tracks or just extending the Airport Link from Suvarnibhumi down south.

Are we missing the point ? Is the HSR link being considered solely for the benefit of the Thai people ? Could it possible be part of the plan for the new Chinese world order ? And, maybe there will be a future time when aviation fuel costs are unacceptably high, and some form of mass movement by land transport is more economic. I guess the real planners behind this idea are thinking very long term !

[IsaanUSA]

I thought it was all Chinese. Meaning the Chinese government wants to use the high speed links to their advantage. Otherwise why else would the Chinese care if Thailand had high speed rail (or anything for that matter)?

[planr]

I thought it was all Chinese. Meaning the Chinese government wants to use the high speed links to their advantage. Otherwise why else would the Chinese care if Thailand had high speed rail (or anything for that matter)?

The original plans for HSR were released in 1994 with a revision in 1996, mostly focusing on a link to the Eastern Seaboard to coincide with plans for Suvarnibhumi. Other national links were mentioned but not as in depth. Remember China was barely on the map economically in pre-Crisis (1997) East / SE Asia compared to what it is today. The new proposals, which are largely re-hashed from the 1990s work, only see China benefit if the links from Nong Khai to BKK and from BKK to the Malaysian border are built. Links to Chiang Mai and the ESB are less important to them.

[Lakegeneve]

Amazing Thailand that they can build a bullet-train from Bangkok to Chaing Mai in 6 years but they cannot open the BTS extension beyond Wongwian Yai in 10 years !

In fairness, the 2.2km WWY ext. took 7.5 years to open.

[Lakegeneve]

Another political vanity project. They would do far better to use half the money and upgrade all the lines in the country to a reasonable standard and double-track them where needed (to the South) for example.

Nobody really needs 350kph trains, but if they could lift Thailand's services reliably above 35kph it would be a start.

But then again, the Chinese are always happy to test unproven technology or engineering shortcuts in other countries before exposing their own citizens to the problems.

The SRT is currently double tracking the whole network (see below). They also plan to eventually standardise (from narrow gauge) and electrify the network. The rail network has been gutted and underfunded for the last 5 decades. Finally, the previous govt started to contribute some substantial funds to upgrade the network and this govt has continued that process. It will take time. You can't neglect something which requires constant improvement for 5 decades and then bring it up to scratch overnight.

HSR lines - I think operational speeds of around 250km/h are more realistic than the 350km/h you mention even if some pollies use that figure- provide an opportunity to quickly build a network suitable for the present and the future. No one questions expensive roads projects when they are built in Thailand yet, for some, a new HSR line is all about corruption (every major project is) and assumed to be not of financial merit. Factor in health, environmental, decreased road accidents and economic efficiency costs and the railway is a hands down winner.

Thailand can't kept building new highways to cater for ever increasing private vehicles and road transport. There is a need to move some off the roads and onto other modes of more efficient transport. We all have to get out of the mentality of the 20th century and enter the 21st. A HSR is a no brainer. It will happen sooner or later....corruption, policy dysfunction and poor implementation all included.

Edited June 8, 2012 by Lakegeneve

[chaoyang]

Despite what we've been told by Western media, after Japan's gold-plated Shinkansen, the Chinese high speed rail system is the safest on earth. Remember, the country is run by 8 engineers. Rail safety is measured in fatalities per TPM, or trillion passenger miles. China's bigger, faster system is much safer than Germany's or France's. Much, much safer.

The allegation that the Chinese equipment infringes on Western IP is also rubbish. The Chinese paid billions in licence fees to France and Germany, then went ahead and improved on the designs they'd bought. Siemens complained so the German government sent a commission of 9 engineers and patent attorneys to China for 6 months to investigate. Their report? "No infringement". Today China holds more high speed rail patents than any country on earth.

That's probably all true. The problem arises in large projects that can spin off so much corruption money ... how many corners will be cut so all the Chinese and Thai bigwigs involved all get their cut of the pie? The 30 percent squeeze has to come from somewhere.

This could have well been the cause of the Shanghai high-speed rail crash, which happened on an elevated concrete roadbed. I have read that a needed additive was not put in the concrete because the funds were needed "elsewhere" -- the cement expanded, the rails were no longer perfect and one train ground to a halt, the next one plowed into it.

[gand]

Is there any cost justification for this? Or is it about the Shinawatra clan?

HSR was first pushed in the early-mid 1990s around the time Thaksin entered politics but was then dropped after the 1997 financial crisis. It is unlikely he has been pushing it since the beginning. The most recent round of promotion for HSR really started picking up steam in 2008 under the PPP-led Samak administration. Some initial preliminary feasibility work was undertaken and the idea kept kicking around through Abhisit's administration, even going as far as a Market Sounding event. As there is a lot of money at stake and genuine interest from the Chinese (and less so the Japanese) in terms of financing, it makes political sense to keep it alive.

From a rational perspective, high speed rail is unnecessary in Thailand. The proposed budget for HSR should be used to accelerate the current double-tracking and rehabilitation efforts currently underway nationwide. This would lead to increased benefits in logistics (very important) and some small gains in passenger service. Certain corridors like Bangkok to Rayong could be provided with an upgraded passenger service such as an electrified meter-gauge system traveling around 150 km/h using existing tracks or just extending the Airport Link from Suvarnibhumi down south.

Are we missing the point ? Is the HSR link being considered solely for the benefit of the Thai people ? Could it possible be part of the plan for the new Chinese world order ? And, maybe there will be a future time when aviation fuel costs are unacceptably high, and some form of mass movement by land transport is more economic. I guess the real planners behind this idea are thinking very long term !

It should make the invasion and occupation easier.

[folium]

Is there any cost justification for this? Or is it about the Shinawatra clan?

HSR was first pushed in the early-mid 1990s around the time Thaksin entered politics but was then dropped after the 1997 financial crisis. It is unlikely he has been pushing it since the beginning. The most recent round of promotion for HSR really started picking up steam in 2008 under the PPP-led Samak administration. Some initial preliminary feasibility work was undertaken and the idea kept kicking around through Abhisit's administration, even going as far as a Market Sounding event. As there is a lot of money at stake and genuine interest from the Chinese (and less so the Japanese) in terms of financing, it makes political sense to keep it alive.

From a rational perspective, high speed rail is unnecessary in Thailand. The proposed budget for HSR should be used to accelerate the current double-tracking and rehabilitation efforts currently underway nationwide. This would lead to increased benefits in logistics (very important) and some small gains in passenger service. Certain corridors like Bangkok to Rayong could be provided with an upgraded passenger service such as an electrified meter-gauge system traveling around 150 km/h using existing tracks or just extending the Airport Link from Suvarnibhumi down south.

Are we missing the point ? Is the HSR link being considered solely for the benefit of the Thai people ? Could it possible be part of the plan for the new Chinese world order ? And, maybe there will be a future time when aviation fuel costs are unacceptably high, and some form of mass movement by land transport is more economic. I guess the real planners behind this idea are thinking very long term !

It should make the invasion and occupation easier.

They are already here and running the place!

[Bagwan]

Better keep all the buffaloes and trucks that are certain they can beat the train off the tracks then!

High speed rail systems are completely fenced off.

Most of Thailand's assets have been 'fenced' off. One of the masterminds was the notorious Chinese 'fence', Ray Ling.

[ratcatcher]

Posted Today, 14:22

RAILWAYS

Cabinet approves railway projects Tuesday

Pakdiharn

BANGKOK: -- The Cabinet on Tuesday approved the State Railway of Thailand (SRT)'s project to build 106km of double-track railway from Chachoengsao to Saraburi provinces, according to deputy government spokesperson Pakdiharn Himathongkham.

In addition to the 106km double track, the Cabinet endorsed the building of rail bypasses at three railway junctions in Chachoengsao, Saraburi and Ayutthaya within the 2013-2016 budget of Bt10.63 billion, set aside from both projects.

It also endorsed the proposed SRT construction of a railway and a tunnel at Phraphuttachai Mountain in Saraburi with a budget of Bt712 million under a two-year project.

SRT railway operations nationwide total 4,363 kilometres of rails, including 3,755km of single track, 173km of double tracks and 107km of triple tracks.

The SRT is targeting completion of 3,039km of double tracks within the next 15 years to serve a high speed railway system and to facilitate goods and passenger transport.

-- The Nation 2012-07-11

So are they going to install new track at 1 meter (narrow) gauge or HSR grade track (standard gauge 4ft 81/2").

We are getting mixed messages here OR is there a trainload of cash to be hijacked by the government & contractors?

Whatever they decide to do is going to be astronomically expensive. Complete new track system & all new rolling stock & locomotives. I await feedback.

Edited July 11, 2012 by ratcatcher

[planr]

So are they going to install new track at 1 meter (narrow) gauge or HSR grade track (standard gauge 4ft 81/2").

We are getting mixed messages here OR is there a trainload of cash to be hijacked by the government & contractors?

Whatever they decide to do is going to be astronomically expensive. Complete new track system & all new rolling stock & locomotives. I await feedback.

The projects mentioned in this article are all referring to meter gauge upgrading / expansion of existing lines. There is nothing about HSR. Double-tracking is badly needed in many parts of the country and the SRT is rightfully putting significant investment into it.

[Grafted]

Question: Is this part of the Asia link like the highway? I would have thought high speed rail, passenger and freight joining AEC would be more useful and environmentally friendly.

[planr]

Question: Is this part of the Asia link like the highway? I would have thought high speed rail, passenger and freight joining AEC would be more useful and environmentally friendly.

If completed, the HSR network as planned would sit (mostly) along the alignments of the Trans-Asian Railway network as proposed by UNESCAP.

[attento]

Great idea. I hope they can pull it off.

sure can,

if they use chinese workers .

That is exactly what they will be doing. This line is of great interest to the Chinese as it will finally connect into China.

Exactly right. It is part of the Chinese planned route though to Singapore. A declared aim. No secret.

[Lakegeneve]

So are they going to install new track at 1 meter (narrow) gauge or HSR grade track (standard gauge 4ft 81/2").

We are getting mixed messages here OR is there a trainload of cash to be hijacked by the government & contractors?

Whatever they decide to do is going to be astronomically expensive. Complete new track system & all new rolling stock & locomotives. I await feedback.

The projects mentioned in this article are all referring to meter gauge upgrading / expansion of existing lines. There is nothing about HSR. Double-tracking is badly needed in many parts of the country and the SRT is rightfully putting significant investment into it.

As planr rightly points out, it is important to distinguish between the SRT's long term plans to

a) upgrading lines and double tracking,

eventual gauge converion to meter gauge,

c) and eventual electification of the network.

from the current HSR line plans. The SRT suffered from 50 years of a lack of funding in the network and now that funds have finally been made available, since the last government, it will take sometime to upgrade the network.

Here is the double tracking plan if you are interested;

[Lakegeneve]

Question: Is this part of the Asia link like the highway? I would have thought high speed rail, passenger and freight joining AEC would be more useful and environmentally friendly.

If completed, the HSR network as planned would sit (mostly) along the alignments of the Trans-Asian Railway network as proposed by UNESCAP.

Grated, you can read more of the ESCAP proposed TAR and history here:

http://2bangkok.com/forum/showthread.php?3471-Trans-Asia-Rail-Network-amp-SRT

The biggest gaps are between the Thai border (though 7km needs to be built between Aran & Poipet) and HCM.

With the Cambodian network being rebuilt by 2014, though with delays, the main missing link is from HCM to Phnom Penh. Though it looks like China will now fund most of that but no approval of any new line yet.

[barefoot1988]

how is it going to go pass the floods

[swillowbee]

... too much for me to read the entire thread, but has anyone considered the carnage if the high speed rail is not built fully above grade? ... the open exposure along hundreds of kilometers of rail bed just boggles the mind ... everyone knows the history of rural train derailments here ... can you imagine what a pick-up truck would do to a passenger train at 300+ KPH?

.... Thailand is a country in which the image of modernity is far important to Thais than the uncivilized reality that belies this nation ... for example:

• BKK is a city jammed with traffic lights, all of which are still, manually switched on and off by Thai traffic cops sitting in little boxes at each intersection - yet the BKK traffic is world class gridlocked;
  
• Thailand has a heavily developed systems of dams and water channels - yet the nation still floods like Bangladesh;
  
• Suvanabhumi Airport is Asia's newest airport - yet suffers from crumbling runways, an air traffic control system that abruptly goes dark, and was near overcapacity on the day it opened.
  

... will a high speed rail system be any different? ... don't get me wrong, I love high speed rail service in civilized nations ... but, like a Thai-built and Thai-operated nuclear power plant, I am quite uncomfortable about a high speed rail system here.

... is modern technology exceeding the capabilities of a culture unprepared for the responsibilities and obligations that attend it a good thing?

[MarkusRellstab]

... too much for me to read the entire thread, but has anyone considered the carnage if the high speed rail is not built fully above grade? ... the open exposure along hundreds of kilometers of rail bed just boggles the mind ... everyone knows the history of rural train derailments here ... can you imagine what a pick-up truck would do to a passenger train at 300+ KPH?

.... Thailand is a country in which the image of modernity is far important to Thais than the uncivilized reality that belies this nation ... for example:

• BKK is a city jammed with traffic lights, all of which are still, manually switched on and off by Thai traffic cops sitting in little boxes at each intersection - yet the BKK traffic is world class gridlocked;
  
• Thailand has a heavily developed systems of dams and water channels - yet the nation still floods like Bangladesh;
  
• Suvanabhumi Airport is Asia's newest airport - yet suffers from crumbling runways, an air traffic control system that abruptly goes dark, and was near overcapacity on the day it opened.
  

... will a high speed rail system be any different? ... don't get me wrong, I love high speed rail service in civilized nations ... but, like a Thai-built and Thai-operated nuclear power plant, I am quite uncomfortable about a high speed rail system here.

... is modern technology exceeding the capabilities of a culture unprepared for the responsibilities and obligations that attend it a good thing?

Don't think too much about it! It will never come as the cost to build and maintain overexeceeds the income by wide margin and it will such a tragic loss making venture, that it will not be built as no-one wants to sink his good money into a drainage hole.

[Thai at Heart]

... too much for me to read the entire thread, but has anyone considered the carnage if the high speed rail is not built fully above grade? ... the open exposure along hundreds of kilometers of rail bed just boggles the mind ... everyone knows the history of rural train derailments here ... can you imagine what a pick-up truck would do to a passenger train at 300+ KPH?

.... Thailand is a country in which the image of modernity is far important to Thais than the uncivilized reality that belies this nation ... for example:

• BKK is a city jammed with traffic lights, all of which are still, manually switched on and off by Thai traffic cops sitting in little boxes at each intersection - yet the BKK traffic is world class gridlocked;
  
• Thailand has a heavily developed systems of dams and water channels - yet the nation still floods like Bangladesh;
  
• Suvanabhumi Airport is Asia's newest airport - yet suffers from crumbling runways, an air traffic control system that abruptly goes dark, and was near overcapacity on the day it opened.
  

... will a high speed rail system be any different? ... don't get me wrong, I love high speed rail service in civilized nations ... but, like a Thai-built and Thai-operated nuclear power plant, I am quite uncomfortable about a high speed rail system here.

... is modern technology exceeding the capabilities of a culture unprepared for the responsibilities and obligations that attend it a good thing?

It is going to be on raised g tracks. Of course what this does to flood waters is anyone s guess.

[davejones]

Can't wait to see the mess when, not if, a pick-up full of migrant labourers breaks down on the tracks.

The track will be raised on pillars, so vehicles won't have access to the tracks Common sense should tell you that.

[davejones]

How long did the Channel Tunnel take? (I forget). (Ok, going under the sea is a bit different than this route.)

But what would scare me is the adequacy of the rail bed to take the weight of a high-speed train, not to mention the possibility of frequent floods. No way 6 years is adequate.

Why the immediate knee-jerk mention of Shinawatra. Bkk and CM are Thailand's two biggest cities...perfectly logical to connect those two cities, like NY to Boston, or London to Brum or Paris to Lyon etc

The train track will be raised, like the BTS, so there shouldn't be any problem with flooding or problem with the rail bed. Not sure why so many don't take this a bit more seriously. This will get built and it will work. It will probably be a great success. Many on here want things in Thailand to fail, even though they live here.

[MaxLee]

How about simple questions???

1. What's the project plan???

2. Who can afford this type of transportation?

3. what about Natural disasters like floods or future earthquakes?

[rubl]

I totally disagree with the 'think it's because people like to see things fail'.

The main problem with this high speed rail link is the frequently inconclusive, inconsistent, even contradiction in statements by various government ministers and other officials. Even in the last six months we had

- BKK-CM link ready in/by 2015

- first link ready by 2018

- BKK-CM link necessary for poor commuters

- trace defined (but no details)

- high speed (but no details)

- billions and billions of Baht, but no business plan (concentration on people rather than goods even!)

- etc., etc.

[metisdead]

Off topic posts have been removed.