Bangkok-Chiang Mai High Speed Rail Ready By 2018: Transport Ministry

[Ricardo]

I totally disagree with the 'think it's because people like to see things fail'.

The main problem with this high speed rail link is the frequently inconclusive, inconsistent, even contradiction in statements by various government ministers and other officials. Even in the last six months we had

- BKK-CM link ready in/by 2015

- first link ready by 2018

- BKK-CM link necessary for poor commuters

- trace defined (but no details)

- high speed (but no details)

- billions and billions of Baht, but no business plan (concentration on people rather than goods even!)

- etc., etc.

"inconclusive, inconsistent, even contradiction in statements" hits it right on-the-mark !

Note for example the other thread started/running today, in which the OTP (Office of Transport and Traffic Policy and Planning) announces that the four high-speed routes won't be ready before 2020, won't be built by the SRT although largely using their land for the new routes, and doesn't even mention the Chinese high-speed freight-railway plans.

Oh, and quotations for the first sections of all four routes are due this year !

It's not being negative, merely being realistic, to suggest that this bunch couldn't run a piss-up in a brewery.

[MESmith]

I totally disagree with the 'think it's because people like to see things fail'.

The main problem with this high speed rail link is the frequently inconclusive, inconsistent, even contradiction in statements by various government ministers and other officials. Even in the last six months we had

- BKK-CM link ready in/by 2015

- first link ready by 2018

- BKK-CM link necessary for poor commuters

- trace defined (but no details)

- high speed (but no details)

- billions and billions of Baht, but no business plan (concentration on people rather than goods even!)

- etc., etc.

"inconclusive, inconsistent, even contradiction in statements" hits it right on-the-mark !

Note for example the other thread started/running today, in which the OTP (Office of Transport and Traffic Policy and Planning) announces that the four high-speed routes won't be ready before 2020, won't be built by the SRT although largely using their land for the new routes, and doesn't even mention the Chinese high-speed freight-railway plans.

Oh, and quotations for the first sections of all four routes are due this year !

It's not being negative, merely being realistic, to suggest that this bunch couldn't run a piss-up in a brewery.

I believe over here "chemical plant" is the correct phrase. When I think of breweries, Theakston at Masham springs to mind.....

Edited January 21, 2013 by MESmith

[rookball]

obvious misspell in the report. 2180 not 2018

[lungmi]

The Transport Minister has expressed confidence that the first high speed railway connecting Bangkok and Chiang Mai will be ready for service by 2018

Other future tellers see economical crash in 2017. Who is right?

[rubl]

The other newspaper has an article today with Director of the Office of Transport and Traffic Policy and Planning Chula Sukmanop. Seems he said

- construction of first line expected to start early 2014

- first section BKK - Phitsanulok to be completed between 2018 - 2019

- Phitsanulok - CM completed 2 years after that

- single trip fare probably no more than THB 2000

So, to conclude, soon, very soon all those poor commuters will be able to commute at a mind boggling speed, while enjoying their lunch boxes of course

[Ricardo]

And the one-way fare is equal-to/higher-than the LCC-airfare, and four times what I pay for a perfectly-good CM-BKK aircon-bus, yet sufficient passengers will switch across to fill these trains at profitable load-factors ?

Sorry, but I just don't believe it. The case for a fast freight-line to meet the Chinese needs is probably reasonably good, or they wouldn't be proposing it. Sound business-people, the Chinese, and this is supposed to save them several days on seafreight for their exports, plus bypass congested-ports.

There are indeed also successful privately-built high-tonnage freight-lines in Australia, between the coal & iron-ore mines, and the ports. It can be done !

The case for running high-speed passenger-trains over the same lines where convenient, getting extra utilisation & revenue from the tracks, can probably be made, provided there's not too much tea-money/overhead involved.

But a profitable high-speed passenger railway, in a relatively-sparsely-populated country like this, paying the privatised train-operator a good return & repaying the massive up-front publicly-funded capital-costs involved plus interest ? Would you bet your own retirement-money on it ?

Edited January 25, 2013 by Ricardo

[rubl]

And the one-way fare is equal-to/higher-than the LCC-airfare, and four times what I pay for a perfectly-good CM-BKK aircon-bus, yet sufficient passengers will switch across to fill these trains at profitable load-factors ?

Sorry, but I just don't believe it. The case for a fast freight-line to meet the Chinese needs is probably reasonably good, or they wouldn't be proposing it. Sound business-people, the Chinese, and this is supposed to save them several days on seafreight for their exports, plus bypass congested-ports.

There are indeed also successful privately-built high-tonnage freight-lines in Australia, between the coal & iron-ore mines, and the ports. It can be done !

The case for running high-speed passenger-trains over the same lines where convenient, getting extra utilisation & revenue from the tracks, can probably be made, provided there's not too much tea-money/overhead involved.

But a profitable high-speed passenger railway, in a relatively-sparsely-populated country like this, paying the privatised train-operator a good return & repaying the massive up-front publicly-funded capital-costs involved plus interest ? Would you bet your own retirement-money on it ?

Well, with a start of BKK - CM survice in 2021 and taking inflation into account THB 2000 single trip fare may be a bargain. Mind you, that would indeed probably mean the link to be as profitable as most SRT links

BTW two interesting links from September/October last year:

"2012-10-19 Bangkok train routes to Chiang Mai, Ubon Ratchathani, Phitsanulok being halted"

http://www.coconutsbangkok.com/news/bangkok-train-routes-to-chiang-mai-ubon-ratchathani-phitsanulok-being-halted/

"BANGKOK, 16 May 2012 – The State Railway of Thailand (SRT) is studying the pros and cons of raising the first- and second-class train ticket prices."

http://thaifinancialpost.com/2012/05/16/first-second-class-train-tickets-may-be-increased/

[Bagwan]

I totally disagree with the 'think it's because people like to see things fail'.

The main problem with this high speed rail link is the frequently inconclusive, inconsistent, even contradiction in statements by various government ministers and other officials. Even in the last six months we had

- BKK-CM link ready in/by 2015

- first link ready by 2018

- BKK-CM link necessary for poor commuters

- trace defined (but no details)

- high speed (but no details)

- billions and billions of Baht, but no business plan (concentration on people rather than goods even!)

- etc., etc.

"inconclusive, inconsistent, even contradiction in statements" hits it right on-the-mark !

Note for example the other thread started/running today, in which the OTP (Office of Transport and Traffic Policy and Planning) announces that the four high-speed routes won't be ready before 2020, won't be built by the SRT although largely using their land for the new routes, and doesn't even mention the Chinese high-speed freight-railway plans.

Oh, and quotations for the first sections of all four routes are due this year !

It's not being negative, merely being realistic, to suggest that this bunch couldn't run a piss-up in a brewery.

I believe over here "chemical plant" is the correct phrase. When I think of breweries, Theakston at Masham springs to mind.....

Ah! A fellow traveller. Theakston's indeed. 3 pints of Old Pekuliar was the start of my downfall - and revealing the truth to a customer. 11 years of drinking cold gnat's pi$$ has left its mark on me.

[Buchholz]

The other newspaper has an article today with Director of the Office of Transport and Traffic Policy and Planning Chula Sukmanop. Seems he said

- construction of first line expected to start early 2014

- first section BKK - Phitsanulok to be completed between 2018 - 2019

- Phitsanulok - CM completed 2 years after that

- single trip fare probably no more than THB 2000

So, to conclude, soon, very soon all those poor commuters will be able to commute at a mind boggling speed, while enjoying their lunch boxes of course

Meanwhile, a third news source gives a third timeline...but nevertheless, thank God the lunch boxes will already be long settled for munching on irregardless of whatever decade the high-speed train is actually ready.

Permanent Secretary for Transport Police General Wichean Potephosree said construction bidding will take place sometime between the end of 2013 and the beginning of 2014.

He stated that the first phase of Thailand’s first high-speed train system will run from Bangkok to Phitsanulok and will cost 240 billion baht to complete, while the actual operation is set in early 2018.

The Permanent Secretary for Transport added that the construction of the second phase between Phitsanulok and Chiang Mai will take place a year later, under the budget of 380 billion baht, before it opens for service in 2019.

Once completed, the entire trip will take around 3 hours, said Police General Wichean.

25 January 2013 (NNT)

http://61.19.244.31/...HT5601250010001

Edited January 25, 2013 by Buchholz

[Ron19]

I cant read the thai script but this sign has just appeared on Phichai (Uttaradit) railway station and mentions the year 2561.Now I dont know if that means 2561 is when it will start or when it will be completed.For two to three months now,the sleepers have been in the process of being upgraded to precast concrete and new lines.In amongst that are some sections coming with the lines already fitted to the concrete sleepers.I don't know what It's all for maybe someone can read the thai on the sign and post what It's all about.

[bangkokrick]

I just got off the High speed train from Suzhou to Shanghai and it took around 40 mins mall for the princely sum of 150 Baht. This makes life a lot easier and quicker when travelling in China and I really hope that Thailand goes along with the planned routes. It would be a boon for the people who originate from the North but work in Bangkok. 350 Kms an hour, no noise and state of the art carriages. Awesome.

[bigbamboo]

I just got off the High speed train from Suzhou to Shanghai and it took around 40 mins mall for the princely sum of 150 Baht. This makes life a lot easier and quicker when travelling in China and I really hope that Thailand goes along with the planned routes. It would be a boon for the people who originate from the North but work in Bangkok. 350 Kms an hour, no noise and state of the art carriages. Awesome.

I've often dreamed of having a Tardis where I could jump in, set the controls and be home in no time.

Unfortunately that will never happen either.

[Thereisnoif]

I just got off the High speed train from Suzhou to Shanghai and it took around 40 mins mall for the princely sum of 150 Baht. This makes life a lot easier and quicker when travelling in China and I really hope that Thailand goes along with the planned routes. It would be a boon for the people who originate from the North but work in Bangkok. 350 Kms an hour, no noise and state of the art carriages. Awesome.

Dream on, never gonna happen

[bangkokrick]

I just got off the High speed train from Suzhou to Shanghai and it took around 40 mins mall for the princely sum of 150 Baht. This makes life a lot easier and quicker when travelling in China and I really hope that Thailand goes along with the planned routes. It would be a boon for the people who originate from the North but work in Bangkok. 350 Kms an hour, no noise and state of the art carriages. Awesome.

Dream on, never gonna happen

Without dreams there is no life. I hope you are proven wrong.

[OzMick]

I just got off the High speed train from Suzhou to Shanghai and it took around 40 mins mall for the princely sum of 150 Baht. This makes life a lot easier and quicker when travelling in China and I really hope that Thailand goes along with the planned routes. It would be a boon for the people who originate from the North but work in Bangkok. 350 Kms an hour, no noise and state of the art carriages. Awesome.

Dream on, never gonna happen

Without dreams there is no life. I hope you are proven wrong.

Tell that to Walter Mitty.

[rametindallas]

Can anyone name a country that has HSR in mountainous areas similar to Chiang Mai. Baht 2.2 trillion will not be enough to build this line because of all the viaducts over valleys and tunnel through mountains. This line will never pay for its construction costs not to mention daily operational costs. It will be operated by SRT, the most incompetent of all government agencies. There is no way that trains can compete with airplanes on this route. This article will give readers an idea of the engineering challenges this project faces: http://articles.latimes.com/2012/nov/12/local/la-me-bullet-mountains-20121113

Frankly speaking, this California project will not happen so what are the chances in Thailand?

[bangkokrick]

I just got off the High speed train from Suzhou to Shanghai and it took around 40 mins mall for the princely sum of 150 Baht. This makes life a lot easier and quicker when travelling in China and I really hope that Thailand goes along with the planned routes. It would be a boon for the people who originate from the North but work in Bangkok. 350 Kms an hour, no noise and state of the art carriages. Awesome.

Dream on, never gonna happen

Without dreams there is no life. I hope you are proven wrong.

Tell that to Walter Mitty.

Well America was built on dreams if you remember. Walter Mitty a fictional character also built on dreams. The cynicism on this site is just unbelievable, but I guess you know best eh!

[bangkokrick]

Can anyone name a country that has HSR in mountainous areas similar to Chiang Mai. Baht 2.2 trillion will not be enough to build this line because of all the viaducts over valleys and tunnel through mountains. This line will never pay for its construction costs not to mention daily operational costs. It will be operated by SRT, the most incompetent of all government agencies. There is no way that trains can compete with airplanes on this route. This article will give readers an idea of the engineering challenges this project faces: http://articles.latimes.com/2012/nov/12/local/la-me-bullet-mountains-20121113

Frankly speaking, this California project will not happen so what are the chances in Thailand?

The chances are that the Chinese want to build it and build it they will.

[hellodolly]

No the Chinese do not want to build a HST to Chiang Mai they want to build one from Singapore to Peking.

The government has no plans to build one from Bangkok to Chiang Mai either. They have a plan to build it part of the way and they are hoping private industry would build the next two phases.

I estimate a HST from Bangkok to Chiang Mai to be completed some time in the neighborhood of 2045. By then there will probably be a need for it.

[OzMick]

Well America was built on dreams if you remember. Walter Mitty a fictional character also built on dreams. The cynicism on this site is just unbelievable, but I guess you know best eh!

If the dream was based on competent engineering and astute business practices, you might have a hope. As it is, it is based on the alleged want of a rich woman with no experience, a history of disastrous policies, and to be paid for with other peoples' money - that is if the intention to build it is there, rather than a pretense for a huge loan to enable even more corruption.

Masturbation will not get you any closer to shagging Miss World.

Has anyone seen a cost/return estimate? How many people paying B150 a trip will it take to pay for a trillion+ capital outlay and huge operating expenses? Or doesn't details like that matter in dreams?

[Thai at Heart]

No the Chinese do not want to build a HST to Chiang Mai they want to build one from Singapore to Peking.

The government has no plans to build one from Bangkok to Chiang Mai either. They have a plan to build it part of the way and they are hoping private industry would build the next two phases.

I estimate a HST from Bangkok to Chiang Mai to be completed some time in the neighborhood of 2045. By then there will probably be a need for it.

The first leg might be by boat by then.

[bangkokrick]

No the Chinese do not want to build a HST to Chiang Mai they want to build one from Singapore to Peking.

The government has no plans to build one from Bangkok to Chiang Mai either. They have a plan to build it part of the way and they are hoping private industry would build the next two phases.

I estimate a HST from Bangkok to Chiang Mai to be completed some time in the neighborhood of 2045. By then there will probably be a need for it.

The Chinese line will begin in Chengdu and carry on through Laos and south. There is more than one way to build an empire.

[bangkokrick]

Well America was built on dreams if you remember. Walter Mitty a fictional character also built on dreams. The cynicism on this site is just unbelievable, but I guess you know best eh!

If the dream was based on competent engineering and astute business practices, you might have a hope. As it is, it is based on the alleged want of a rich woman with no experience, a history of disastrous policies, and to be paid for with other peoples' money - that is if the intention to build it is there, rather than a pretense for a huge loan to enable even more corruption.

Masturbation will not get you any closer to shagging Miss World.

Has anyone seen a cost/return estimate? How many people paying B150 a trip will it take to pay for a trillion+ capital outlay and huge operating expenses? Or doesn't details like that matter in dreams?

I remember when the sky train was never going to happen and also the underground it did and thats a fact. This will happen like it or not. Cash does not come in to it. Like the tallest building etc its all face. You should know that.

[Ricardo]

No the Chinese do not want to build a HST to Chiang Mai they want to build one from Singapore to Peking.

The government has no plans to build one from Bangkok to Chiang Mai either. They have a plan to build it part of the way and they are hoping private industry would build the next two phases.

I estimate a HST from Bangkok to Chiang Mai to be completed some time in the neighborhood of 2045. By then there will probably be a need for it.

The Chinese line will begin in Chengdu and carry on through Laos and south. There is more than one way to build an empire.

Unlike the PTP's wet-dream, the Chinese freight-line makes some sort of economic-sense, and might actually get built.

Whereas, as Hellodolly rightly points out, the current yet-to-be-financed/started Thai-proposal only goes part-way up to Chiang Mai, and then leaves the harder parts for someone else to do.

You may be correct, when you say that there is cynicism (on TV), I'd prefer to call it the voice-of-experience. Just look at how slowly the dual-track project has been proceeding, under SRT, or how long the new airport took to actually open, or how slowly its delayed-expansion is running, or the progress on the urgent flood-work funded/promised in 2011, or how well the Dawei project is going.

Or even just look to see the next road-resurfacing project, nearest your home, and see how well-engineered it is.

IMO there is simply no way that the Thai proposal will be completed, on the current schedule, if ever. One must try to be realistic about this project.

Edited July 10, 2013 by Ricardo

[bangkokrick]

No the Chinese do not want to build a HST to Chiang Mai they want to build one from Singapore to Peking.

The government has no plans to build one from Bangkok to Chiang Mai either. They have a plan to build it part of the way and they are hoping private industry would build the next two phases.

I estimate a HST from Bangkok to Chiang Mai to be completed some time in the neighborhood of 2045. By then there will probably be a need for it.

The Chinese line will begin in Chengdu and carry on through Laos and south. There is more than one way to build an empire.

Unlike the PTP's wet-dream, the Chinese freight-line makes some sort of economic-sense, and might actually get built.

Whereas, as Hellodolly rightly points out, the current yet-to-be-financed/started Thai-proposal only goes part-way up to Chiang Mai, and then leaves the harder parts for someone else to do.

You may be correct, when you say that there is cynicism (on TV), I'd prefer to call it the voice-of-experience. Just look at how slowly the dual-track project has been proceeding, under SRT, or how long the new airport took to actually open, or how slowly its delayed-expansion is running, or the progress on the urgent flood-work funded/promised in 2011, or how well the Dawei project is going.

Or even just look to see the next road-resurfacing project, nearest your home, and see how well-engineered it is.

IMO there is simply no way that the Thai proposal will be completed, on the current schedule, if ever. One must try to be realistic about this project.

I prefer to call it cynicism which is not quite the same as experience. My take on this is that it will go ahead and it will be built and possibly funded by the Chinese, but only time will tell. I agree that Thais are not very capable when it comes to engineering projects and thats why they outsource.

[OzMick]

I remember when the sky train was never going to happen and also the underground it did and thats a fact. This will happen like it or not. Cash does not come in to it. Like the tallest building etc its all face. You should know that.

We seem to agree that it SHOULD NOT happen, only differ on whether it will. I hope that an attempt to build a White Elephant, Special Class, will be seen for what it is, just another scam and nipped in the bud.

[lungmi]

The former chinese colleage of this minister, the promoter of the High Speed Trains in China, has just been condemned to the death penalty for corruption.

[bangkokrick]

I remember when the sky train was never going to happen and also the underground it did and thats a fact. This will happen like it or not. Cash does not come in to it. Like the tallest building etc its all face. You should know that.

We seem to agree that it SHOULD NOT happen, only differ on whether it will. I hope that an attempt to build a White Elephant, Special Class, will be seen for what it is, just another scam and nipped in the bud.

Thai Thai train system is outdated and almost obsolete, so it needs to be upgraded. Why not upgrade to the latest technology? This would serve the Thai people as well as the Government. Also are you saying that corruption is an Asian thing. Lots of examples of Western corruption to be found.

[bangkokrick]

I remember when the sky train was never going to happen and also the underground it did and thats a fact. This will happen like it or not. Cash does not come in to it. Like the tallest building etc its all face. You should know that.

We seem to agree that it SHOULD NOT happen, only differ on whether it will. I hope that an attempt to build a White Elephant, Special Class, will be seen for what it is, just another scam and nipped in the bud.

Thai Thai train system is outdated and almost obsolete, so it needs to be upgraded. Why not upgrade to the latest technology? This would serve the Thai people as well as the Government. Also are you saying that corruption is an Asian thing. Lots of examples of Western corruption to be found.

[lungmi]

The former chinese colleage of this minister, the promoter of the High Speed Trains in China, has just been condemned to the death penalty for corruption.

http://www.lemonde.fr/asie-pacifique/article/2013/07/08/chine-un-ancien-ministre-condamne_3443858_3216.html

I don't understand the ignorance of some posters.

1. It's an international corruption project.

2. The technology of these trains does'nt fit with Thailand.