Manchester United

[rixalex]

This season's shown exactly what Moyes is rix. An midtable manager with no clue about how to manage a big club. Sooner or later you're going to have to admit he was a bad, and the wrong, appointment. He's your Hodgson.

Stevie, at this point I'm not arguing one way or the other that he was the right or the wrong appointment, i'm arguing that whoever took over from Fergie would need more than one season to rebuild the team and to establish themselves, and i'm arguing that Moyes has to be given that time. If it turns out that he's not up to the job and we have to get rid of him at some future point after he has had ample time, well then so be it.

There can be a price for loyally sticking with a manager and we may end up paying it, but for me, the potential reward of sticking and working with what you have got and allowing some time for things to develop, makes it a price worth paying.

[carmine]

This season's shown exactly what Moyes is rix. An midtable manager with no clue about how to manage a big club. Sooner or later you're going to have to admit he was a bad, and the wrong, appointment. He's your Hodgson.

Stevie, at this point I'm not arguing one way or the other that he was the right or the wrong appointment, i'm arguing that whoever took over from Fergie would need more than one season to rebuild the team and to establish themselves, and i'm arguing that Moyes has to be given that time. If it turns out that he's not up to the job and we have to get rid of him at some future point after he has had ample time, well then so be it.

There can be a price for loyally sticking with a manager and we may end up paying it, but for me, the potential reward of sticking and working with what you have got and allowing some time for things to develop, makes it a price worth paying.

I think the thing is that yes, the new manager must be given time, and yes it will probably need more than a season but the time must be given to a manager that can do the job and Moyes cannot.

He's hopelessly out of his depth in every way. He also lacks the gravitas needed in a big job like this.

Its no shame to make a mistake and Ferguson did. Now it must be rectified which it almost certainly will. A poor showing at home to the Greeks and a pasting by City and that will be that. When a manager loses the dressing room then thats it.

I think there is foundation for a top manager to build on and with the rumored transfer fund wisely spent i think United will be back in the mix next season. I very much doubt that Moyes will be trusted with that money and i very much doubt he could attract the top players available to come and play for him. A top manager probably would though despite not being in the champions league because were talking about Man Utd.

[mjj]

When SAF announced his retirement I said the next managers job would be a poisoned chalice. Fergie's shoes are just to big to fill and the change within the club would be detrimental. The manager after Moyes will have much more of a chance of success.

[carmine]

When SAF announced his retirement I said the next managers job would be a poisoned chalice. Fergie's shoes are just to big to fill and the change within the club would be detrimental. The manager after Moyes will have much more of a chance of success.

You are probably right. Will they go for an up and coming manager, the likes of Simeone at Athletico or go with a wealth of experience in someone like Van Gaal? Tough one, especially if you are going to hand them 200m to spend. And it will be a big transition.

[jellydog]

When SAF announced his retirement I said the next managers job would be a poisoned chalice. Fergie's shoes are just to big to fill and the change within the club would be detrimental. The manager after Moyes will have much more of a chance of success.

Agreed with that, though Moyes seems to have slurped up that poisonous concoction in an awful hurry.

Kudos to Rix for his loyalty but the writing is on the wall I think. Once you see those trial balloons floating about in the press that a manager might be given a shove...its usually only a matter of time.

United management have a ton of questions to answer between now and the beginning of next season. Do they want to take a chance that retaining Moyes will make those decisions more difficult, or worse yet, scuttle some ? I'd bet the decision will be to let Moyes go and start anew.

The bigger picture though, is that without SAF, United is just another big club fighting all the rest of the big clubs regardless of who the manager might be. Barring a miracle the long run of glory days are over. A bitter pill to be sure for United fans.

I

[rixalex]

I think the thing is that yes, the new manager must be given time, and yes it will probably need more than a season but the time must be given to a manager that can do the job and Moyes cannot.

This is the crux of it. You think after just over half a season that a manager can be definitively judged as being able to do the job or not being able to do the job. I think making that judgment requires more time, particularly when the manager in question is trying to fill the void of a man who became the life and blood of the club for getting on for three decades.

[P45Mustang]

It was always going to be a tough job. That is why it should have gone to a top manager.

Moyes lacks something that carmine referred to.....gravitas. That will not change.

Moyes has provided no evidence that he is tactically astute enough to cope at the top of the EPL. Will that change?

Moyes has yet to demonstrate that he can operate successfully in Europe, but point 2 above is not a good sign is it?

Had United appointed a top manager there is a distinct possibility that they would be fighting for a CL place and therefore in a far better position to move forward.

Backward movement under Moyes and the possibility of slow movement forward could have been avoided.

None of this is hindsight...it was clear that it was going to be like this from day 1. And compounded by the transfer debacles. Point accepted that Moyes was not fully responsible, but his role in this does not look too clever does it?

United's return to the top with Moyes will, at best, be slow and painful.

United's return to the top with a top manager could be much faster...and instead of ABUs people might just be saying "Jeez, look what United are doing." I am talking about inspirational transition.

It's the simple difference between a Guardiola type and a Moyes type.

Good Luck

[uptheos]

The writing was on the wall the day he signed Fellaini and ignored Baines.

I could understand the interest in Fabregas, but it went OTT and became absurd.

There were many players who would gladly have joined United in the close season, famous club who had just won the PL by a mile......and who did he sign?.......frigging mophead. Mata was an act of desperation and since signing looks like a schoolboy. Did Mourinho see in Mata what Moyes couldn't see, or has he just deflated him? Big picture taken with Rooney after giving 300,000 a week.....ridiculous!!.....should have let Mourinho have him when he could.

[rixalex]

Moyes has yet to demonstrate that he can operate successfully in Europe, but point 2 above is not a good sign is it?

True although he did have us top our qualification group and with a record away win against Bayer Leverkusen in the process, which is more than some people thought he would manage in his first year and with his total lack of European experience. Won't of course count for a lot if we get knocked out this evening, but if that does happen, not as if we are alone in being knocked out at this stage, albeit by lesser opposition than others have.

[rixalex]

The writing was on the wall the day he signed Fellaini and ignored Baines.

I could understand the interest in Fabregas, but it went OTT and became absurd.

There were many players who would gladly have joined United in the close season, famous club who had just won the PL by a mile......and who did he sign?.......frigging mophead. Mata was an act of desperation and since signing looks like a schoolboy. Did Mourinho see in Mata what Moyes couldn't see, or has he just deflated him? Big picture taken with Rooney after giving 300,000 a week.....ridiculous!!.....should have let Mourinho have him when he could.

Agree about Fellaini. He's been an unmitigated disaster. Did think he would be able to do a job for us but he's not even getting the basics right. Tend to think that means it's a problem with the player rather than the manager.

Mata will come good i'm pretty sure of that. The problem with him i think is to do with the manager rather than the player. Moyes needs to find a way of fitting him in the team and that has to start with playing him in his best position. Once that happens he will shine.

As for Rooney, he has been our one bright spot in the team, besides the keeper. Losing him, and not only losing him, but to Premiership opposition, would have been really bad. Yes he's getting paid a lot but the cost of replacing him would have been much greater. Perhaps had the interest had come from outside of England it would have been something to consider.

[P45Mustang]

Moyes has yet to demonstrate that he can operate successfully in Europe, but point 2 above is not a good sign is it?

True although he did have us top our qualification group and with a record away win against Bayer Leverkusen in the process, which is more than some people thought he would manage in his first year and with his total lack of European experience. Won't of course count for a lot if we get knocked out this evening, but if that does happen, not as if we are alone in being knocked out at this stage, albeit by lesser opposition than others have.

Good Luck rix.

My angle is not from the perspective of an ABU.

[uptheos]

The writing was on the wall the day he signed Fellaini and ignored Baines.

I could understand the interest in Fabregas, but it went OTT and became absurd.

There were many players who would gladly have joined United in the close season, famous club who had just won the PL by a mile......and who did he sign?.......frigging mophead. Mata was an act of desperation and since signing looks like a schoolboy. Did Mourinho see in Mata what Moyes couldn't see, or has he just deflated him? Big picture taken with Rooney after giving 300,000 a week.....ridiculous!!.....should have let Mourinho have him when he could.

Agree about Fellaini. He's been an unmitigated disaster. Did think he would be able to do a job for us but he's not even getting the basics right. Tend to think that means it's a problem with the player rather than the manager.

Mata will come good i'm pretty sure of that. The problem with him i think is to do with the manager rather than the player. Moyes needs to find a way of fitting him in the team and that has to start with playing him in his best position. Once that happens he will shine.

As for Rooney, he has been our one bright spot in the team, besides the keeper. Losing him, and not only losing him, but to Premiership opposition, would have been really bad. Yes he's getting paid a lot but the cost of replacing him would have been much greater. Perhaps had the interest had come from outside of England it would have been something to consider.

I hope so, I always rated him......but

Assuming that Moyes remains manager, how will it be resolved, surely he knew his best position before buying him?

Not sure why losing Rooney to PL opposition would be really bad......you think Man U would be lower in the league?

I guess there's a chance they won't be in any European competition next season isn't there.

Am I right in thinking that perhaps Cardiff, CP or Fulham might be, according to the fair play ruling?

Edited March 19, 2014 by uptheos

[rixalex]

Assuming that Moyes remains manager, how will it be resolved, surely he knew his best position before buying him?

I think this is the classic mistake made by many a Premiership manager of trying to play a round peg in a square hole, in a desperate attempt to put out on the pitch all of their best players at the same time. Generally it just doesn't work. Would be great if it did, but a great player doesn't mean a versatile player, and Mata clearly proves that. Moyes needs to figure that out and fast.

[carmine]

The writing was on the wall the day he signed Fellaini and ignored Baines.

I could understand the interest in Fabregas, but it went OTT and became absurd.

There were many players who would gladly have joined United in the close season, famous club who had just won the PL by a mile......and who did he sign?.......frigging mophead. Mata was an act of desperation and since signing looks like a schoolboy. Did Mourinho see in Mata what Moyes couldn't see, or has he just deflated him? Big picture taken with Rooney after giving 300,000 a week.....ridiculous!!.....should have let Mourinho have him when he could.

Agree about Fellaini. He's been an unmitigated disaster. Did think he would be able to do a job for us but he's not even getting the basics right. Tend to think that means it's a problem with the player rather than the manager.

Mata will come good i'm pretty sure of that. The problem with him i think is to do with the manager rather than the player. Moyes needs to find a way of fitting him in the team and that has to start with playing him in his best position. Once that happens he will shine.

As for Rooney, he has been our one bright spot in the team, besides the keeper. Losing him, and not only losing him, but to Premiership opposition, would have been really bad. Yes he's getting paid a lot but the cost of replacing him would have been much greater. Perhaps had the interest had come from outside of England it would have been something to consider.

I'd be very concerned at the amount of influence Rooney seems to have. Apart from his astonishing salary, if its true he has say in transfer targets i think thats an appalling situation to have been allowed to happen.

as far as him being captain next season it might be a case of theres no one else but that doesn't make him a good captain.

I think if you look at his stats for the season they are rather unimpressive and i just don't understand how, at a club of the size of United everyone seems to jump when Rooney has a tiff.

Mata was a good buy and if Moyes is to survive then he'd better learn how and where to him quickly. Everyone else seems to know where to play Mata so why doesn't "5.9m on a 6 year contract" a year David Moyes?

[rixalex]

Mata was a good buy and if Moyes is to survive then he'd better learn how and where to him quickly. Everyone else seems to know where to play Mata so why doesn't "5.9m on a 6 year contract" a year David Moyes?

Seem to recall him being played out of position at times at Chelsea too, which was one of the main reasons why he ended up on the bench there.

[BangrakBob]

The writing was on the wall the day he signed Fellaini and ignored Baines.

I could understand the interest in Fabregas, but it went OTT and became absurd.

There were many players who would gladly have joined United in the close season, famous club who had just won the PL by a mile......and who did he sign?.......frigging mophead. Mata was an act of desperation and since signing looks like a schoolboy. Did Mourinho see in Mata what Moyes couldn't see, or has he just deflated him? Big picture taken with Rooney after giving 300,000 a week.....ridiculous!!.....should have let Mourinho have him when he could.

Agree about Fellaini. He's been an unmitigated disaster. Did think he would be able to do a job for us but he's not even getting the basics right. Tend to think that means it's a problem with the player rather than the manager.

Mata will come good i'm pretty sure of that. The problem with him i think is to do with the manager rather than the player. Moyes needs to find a way of fitting him in the team and that has to start with playing him in his best position. Once that happens he will shine.

As for Rooney, he has been our one bright spot in the team, besides the keeper. Losing him, and not only losing him, but to Premiership opposition, would have been really bad. Yes he's getting paid a lot but the cost of replacing him would have been much greater. Perhaps had the interest had come from outside of England it would have been something to consider.

I'd be very concerned at the amount of influence Rooney seems to have. Apart from his astonishing salary, if its true he has say in transfer targets i think thats an appalling situation to have been allowed to happen.

as far as him being captain next season it might be a case of theres no one else but that doesn't make him a good captain.

I think if you look at his stats for the season they are rather unimpressive and i just don't understand how, at a club of the size of United everyone seems to jump when Rooney has a tiff.

Mata was a good buy and if Moyes is to survive then he'd better learn how and where to him quickly. Everyone else seems to know where to play Mata so why doesn't "5.9m on a 6 year contract" a year David Moyes?

After watching Rooney being interviewed before the Liverpool match, the only thing he should be concerned with is kicking a ball about on the pitch. Captain and management level decision making is another master stroke by agent Moyes

[rixalex]

I'd be very concerned at the amount of influence Rooney seems to have. Apart from his astonishing salary, if its true he has say in transfer targets i think thats an appalling situation to have been allowed to happen.

as far as him being captain next season it might be a case of theres no one else but that doesn't make him a good captain.

I think if you look at his stats for the season they are rather unimpressive and i just don't understand how, at a club of the size of United everyone seems to jump when Rooney has a tiff.

I think that comes down to half of the Rooney talk being unsubstantiated tabloid nonsense, and the other half being true, but being proof of what players can get away with doing all the time they are seen as being pivotal in a team.

Clubs and fans will put up with a lot, all the time a player is giving 110% and playing on top form. The moment they aren't is the moment they stop getting away with it and start getting flack.

Rooney has worked himself into a very nice position there is no doubt about that... and it was hard work that put him in a position to command the generous salary that he is getting. It wasn't a fluke or down to just having a fast talking agent.

But unlike other players, the moment his performances drop away a tiny bit, there won't be any leeway and he will be under an enormous amount of pressure very quickly. It's not as if United fans hold him dear to their hearts. It's merely business. He gets a lot from "us", and we get a lot from him. As long as things stay that way, we get along fine.

[carmine]

Mata was a good buy and if Moyes is to survive then he'd better learn how and where to him quickly. Everyone else seems to know where to play Mata so why doesn't "5.9m on a 6 year contract" a year David Moyes?

Seem to recall him being played out of position at times at Chelsea too, which was one of the main reasons why he ended up on the bench there.

Wasn't it more a case of Mourinho preferring Oscar and added to that an embarrassing array of midfield talent!

[rixalex]

Mata was a good buy and if Moyes is to survive then he'd better learn how and where to him quickly. Everyone else seems to know where to play Mata so why doesn't "5.9m on a 6 year contract" a year David Moyes?

Seem to recall him being played out of position at times at Chelsea too, which was one of the main reasons why he ended up on the bench there.

Wasn't it more a case of Mourinho preferring Oscar and added to that an embarrassing array of midfield talent!

In the specific role that Mata played to such great affect at Chelsea for those two years of being player of the team, I don't think Chelsea did or do have an array of talent. Which is why him being played out of position at Chelsea was even more mind boggling than him being played out of position at United. At least at United you can understand why it is difficult to play him in his best position with the other players we have. But anyway, getting back to my main point, no I don't think Moyes is the only one who doesn't know where Mata should be playing.

[P45Mustang]

I'd be very concerned at the amount of influence Rooney seems to have. Apart from his astonishing salary, if its true he has say in transfer targets i think thats an appalling situation to have been allowed to happen.

as far as him being captain next season it might be a case of theres no one else but that doesn't make him a good captain.

I think if you look at his stats for the season they are rather unimpressive and i just don't understand how, at a club of the size of United everyone seems to jump when Rooney has a tiff.

I think that comes down to half of the Rooney talk being unsubstantiated tabloid nonsense, and the other half being true, but being proof of what players can get away with doing all the time they are seen as being pivotal in a team.

Clubs and fans will put up with a lot, all the time a player is giving 110% and playing on top form. The moment they aren't is the moment they stop getting away with it and start getting flack.

Rooney has worked himself into a very nice position there is no doubt about that... and it was hard work that put him in a position to command the generous salary that he is getting. It wasn't a fluke or down to just having a fast talking agent.

But unlike other players, the moment his performances drop away a tiny bit, there won't be any leeway and he will be under an enormous amount of pressure very quickly. It's not as if United fans hold him dear to their hearts. It's merely business. He gets a lot from "us", and we get a lot from him. As long as things stay that way, we get along fine.

Does this philosophy not apply to managers too rix?

BTW. The debate about the best utilisation of Mata, and Mata's motivation, seems to me a symptom of something not being right.

Another example of pain and torture? Is it the manager, is it the player...?

[P45Mustang]

Mata was a good buy and if Moyes is to survive then he'd better learn how and where to him quickly. Everyone else seems to know where to play Mata so why doesn't "5.9m on a 6 year contract" a year David Moyes?

Seem to recall him being played out of position at times at Chelsea too, which was one of the main reasons why he ended up on the bench there.

Wasn't it more a case of Mourinho preferring Oscar and added to that an embarrassing array of midfield talent!

In the specific role that Mata played to such great affect at Chelsea for those two years of being player of the team, I don't think Chelsea did or do have an array of talent. Which is why him being played out of position at Chelsea was even more mind boggling than him being played out of position at United. At least at United you can understand why it is difficult to play him in his best position with the other players we have. But anyway, getting back to my main point, no I don't think Moyes is the only one who doesn't know where Mata should be playing.

Rix. Mourinho reluctantly let Mata go because, great player as he is, he didn't fit Mourinho's plan going forward.

Discussion about best utility of Mata should focus on United and where it works for you guys not what happened previously.

[rixalex]

I'd be very concerned at the amount of influence Rooney seems to have. Apart from his astonishing salary, if its true he has say in transfer targets i think thats an appalling situation to have been allowed to happen.

as far as him being captain next season it might be a case of theres no one else but that doesn't make him a good captain.

I think if you look at his stats for the season they are rather unimpressive and i just don't understand how, at a club of the size of United everyone seems to jump when Rooney has a tiff.

I think that comes down to half of the Rooney talk being unsubstantiated tabloid nonsense, and the other half being true, but being proof of what players can get away with doing all the time they are seen as being pivotal in a team.

Clubs and fans will put up with a lot, all the time a player is giving 110% and playing on top form. The moment they aren't is the moment they stop getting away with it and start getting flack.

Rooney has worked himself into a very nice position there is no doubt about that... and it was hard work that put him in a position to command the generous salary that he is getting. It wasn't a fluke or down to just having a fast talking agent.

But unlike other players, the moment his performances drop away a tiny bit, there won't be any leeway and he will be under an enormous amount of pressure very quickly. It's not as if United fans hold him dear to their hearts. It's merely business. He gets a lot from "us", and we get a lot from him. As long as things stay that way, we get along fine.

Does this philosophy not apply to managers too rix?

No I don't think it does really. The work a player puts in can be read and measured pretty easily and pretty quickly by what they do on the pitch. What a manager does takes time to read and the curve of progress might not always be continually upward. Sometimes you have to go backwards before you can go forwards. We are certainly doing a good job of that... the backwards bit anyway...

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[P45Mustang]

From the perspective of a talent scout:

'Can this boy play football?'

'Can this manager manage?'

SAF made the wrong signing.

I am trying to help.

Honest.

[rixalex]

He's your Hodgson.

Anyway you guys should be thankful to Hodgson. He was the one who brought out of Gerrard his best ever England performances that no England manager prior had got out of him, and showed the position he needs to play in for the remainder of his career; the position he has gone on to play so effectively for Liverpool this season.

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[rixalex]

From the perspective of a talent scout:

'Can this boy play football?'

'Can this manager manage?'

SAF made the wrong signing.

I am trying to help.

Honest.

On the question of can this manager manage, for those few who haven't erased from their memories the good job he consistently did at Everton over ten years there, the answer is clearly yes. A more pertinent and difficult to answer question would be, can this manager make the step up? I haven't made my mind up on that one but admit it's not looking good.

[Mooner]

Out of his depth! People talk about needing time. Mourinho and Pellegrini didn't need time. Went in and business as usual. I don't support this players aren't good enough opinion. We all know United have needed a CM or 3 for a few years but this team did win the league easily last year. Although it flattered United the team isn't that bad IMHO.I don't expect to be challenging for the league but I do expect to be challenging to get in the Champions league.

I have seen no progress in the 9 months he has been in charge. Even if you haven't got the players you want you set up your team to be hard to beat and have some kind of game plan to how you might nick a goal. Pretty much what he did at Everton but even this has been missing.

The decision to play Mata wide is shocking! The main reason Mourinho sold him was he preferred a more hard working, pressing minded player in the playmaker role. He played Mata wide in the front 3 role but he didn't have the qualities to succeed there. He doesn't have pace and isn't defense minded and to be honest I wouldn't ask a player of his quality to do that kind of work. So what does Moyes do with Chelsea 2 times player of the year? Play him in a role which he doesn't excel in and basically made him surplus to requirements at Chelsea.

Pre season he was looking at Fabregas(what a waste of time that chase was!) and Herrera. Small technical players who move the ball quickly. Then he signs Fellani the total opposite of the players he was chasing all summer.

I know this is controversial but I would sell RVP and put Rooney up top like he was in the 2009/10 season when he scored 34 in 44 games and Mata behind him. Either that or Rooney drops back to CM which I cant see happening yet. RVP looks and reading between the lines of some of his recent comments sound not happy. He is 31 and hasn't had the best injury record over his career anyway.

Im pretty happy with the attack minded players. A couple of CM is a must as well as a LB and maybe a CB this summer. My worry is that is can Moyes attract good enough players and should he be trusted with a 100 or 200 million?

[P45Mustang]

Moysey needs to get the blood flowing.

Rodgers knows this, so does Suarez. That is why it works.

Mata is probably wondering where Papa Jose is.

[rixalex]

Out of his depth! People talk about needing time. Mourinho and Pellegrini didn't need time. Went in and business as usual.

Moyes inherited a side that had massively over-performed the season prior. Without a slew of signings, it was always going to be downhill under Moyes for a while. Pelligrini on the other hand inherited a side strong and big enough to actually field two Premiership teams, that had massively under-performed the season prior. Bar doing something really stupid, it was always going to be uphill under Pelligrini. As for Mourinho, well he was returning to a club he had already worked at, and he has good experience throughout his career of dropping in on clubs for a couple of years, winning something, and then moving on as he starts rubbing certain people up the wrong way. He's very good doing it, has it down to an art actually, and if all as a club you care about is winning something now, and not worrying about what will happen in a few years time, he's a great choice. He would have been an absolute shoe in at City and i think in time both her and City will regret not having worked together. Or perhaps they still will.. oh well... who cares..

Anyway, those are the differences that made taking over at United a very different proposition from taking over at Chelsea and City, along with the fact that neither of those clubs had had the same manager for the last 27 years. Fergie leaving created a void that has still to be filled. You can hardly say that Mancini and Rafa left voids, can you?

P.S. You do make some good points in the rest of your post though. Agree with most of it. Your idea about ditching RVP and playing Rooney up front is a very interesting one. I can imagine it would certainly really ignite Rooney and it would be good to see him as a 30 plus goals a season striker. The only thing is though, it's hard to get rid of one of your best players at the best of times, but especially when you are struggling, and it would be really sad to see his talent depart. Enjoyed his football immensely. Still, Fergie was the past master and knowing the right time to offload talent. Perhaps it is the sort of thing he would do.

Edited March 19, 2014 by rixalex

[rixalex]

Rix. Mourinho reluctantly let Mata go because, great player as he is, he didn't fit Mourinho's plan going forward.

Discussion about best utility of Mata should focus on United and where it works for you guys not what happened previously.

Looking at what happened previously is precisely what we should be doing with regards Mata. Look at the way he played during those two stellar years at Chelsea, and try to get him doing something similar.

[jellydog]

Agreed with that from Rix, though I don't think Mourinho was ever considered at Man City, and as long as Txiki has any say about it he never will be. The ex-Barca brain trust are interested in playing attacking, entertaining football, and of course winning along the way. In addition, they aren't likely to be pulling in a manager who seems to have itchy feet to move on so often, and a penchant for creating needless, and at times embarrassing problems.