Tomatoes In Rainy Season

[SundayAfternoon]

I'm slowly working my way through the pinned topics, so apologies if this has been asked and answered already, but this morning I have just noticed that my totato plants have tiny, little, green fruit appearing! My first ever tomatoes! (I feel like a poroud parent! LOL)

Give that it's raining up here in Chiang Mai, is there anything I should do to try and protect these little guys from rain? from pests? anything else I sould do?

I think I probably planted them at the completely wrong time of year... but, they've lasted this long! Now I've just gotta get those babies nice and big and ripe!

Any thoughts?

Thanks.

[loong]

If you have planted your toms too close together, you may have to trim back some foliage. If the foliage gets too dense, air can't circulate and the plants will take too long to dry out between rainfalls. You are likely to get fungal problems.

If you don't know, toms always prefer to be watered at the base.

[Scoop1]

Hi SunnyAfternoon

Try and keep the rain off them with some sort of plastic cover, and as loong sugested make sure they are not too close together, air flow is very important to have some control over fungus problems, but it is also important not to remove any healthy leaves as a developing fruit truss will assimilate mainly from the leaf above the truss, the leaf opposite, and the leaf immediately below the truss, the leaves growing below an immature fruit truss should not be removed because they contribute to to the formation of assimilates and to the remobilisation of mobile nutrients. Leaves retained below the lowest fruit truss on the plant will result in a larger fruit size on that truss as these leaves produce assimilates which is directly imported into the fruit on that truss, deleafing reduces fruit dry matter, which reduces sugars and and soluble solids which is directly related among other things to the sweetness of the fruit, this is so often overlooked when growing tomato cultivars. Another thing to remember is that the rain is a problem not just because of the fungus issues ,it also has a direct relationship with tomato taste and fruit cracking, if you let the plant dry out a little and then you get a lot of rain entering the root zone the plant will readily absorb this excess moisture { basically the fruit gets a gut full of water } and that weakens the nutrients and this in turn also lowers the fruit dry matter and the fruit swells faster than the fruit skin can expand and this pressure causes the fruit to crack.

Cheers

Scoop1

PS, how many stems are you running on each plant, how many and what type of cultivar are you growing.

Edited June 23, 2012 by Scoop1

[Scoop1]

Hi SundayAfternoon, how are your toms looking at the moment, are they gowing ok?

Scoop

[stevehaigh]

Hi SunnyAfternoon

Try and keep the rain off them with some sort of plastic cover, and as loong sugested make sure they are not too close together, air flow is very important to have some control over fungus problems, but it is also important not to remove any healthy leaves as a developing fruit truss will assimilate mainly from the leaf above the truss, the leaf opposite, and the leaf immediately below the truss, the leaves growing below an immature fruit truss should not be removed because they contribute to to the formation of assimilates and to the remobilisation of mobile nutrients. Leaves retained below the lowest fruit truss on the plant will result in a larger fruit size on that truss as these leaves produce assimilates which is directly imported into the fruit on that truss, deleafing reduces fruit dry matter, which reduces sugars and and soluble solids which is directly related among other things to the sweetness of the fruit, this is so often overlooked when growing tomato cultivars. Another thing to remember is that the rain is a problem not just because of the fungus issues ,it also has a direct relationship with tomato taste and fruit cracking, if you let the plant dry out a little and then you get a lot of rain entering the root zone the plant will readily absorb this excess moisture { basically the fruit gets a gut full of water } and that weakens the nutrients and this in turn also lowers the fruit dry matter and the fruit swells faster than the fruit skin can expand and this pressure causes the fruit to crack.

Cheers

Scoop1

PS, how many stems are you running on each plant, how many and what type of cultivar are you growing.

wow, you sure know tomatoes! so it sounds like you are saying not to remove any leaves? what about the buds that pop up between the stalk and the leaf stem? if you don't pinch them out, you end up with a huge leafy blob and not much fruit right? and no enough air circulation in the core?

[Scoop1]

Hi Stevehaigh, yes that is correct, with regard to deleafing as i have explained, those leaves directly below and directctly above a fruit truss are very important to that particular fruit truss, but as the plant grows they will eventually, and naturally, yellow and slowly die off, but usually the truss has ripened by then, if you remove them too early other leaves on the plant have to compensate for the assimale production for that fruit truss and there is only so much to go around. Most gardeners would not notice any difference at all but in a commercial situation where they may have 50,000 plants it can and does make a big difference, particularly in the taste department when they grow F1 hybrids that are bred and grown for kilograms not taste, if you can fine tune what you are doing, then why not. Pinching out the lateral shoots is up to you as to how many stems you want to run, that mostly depends on, "Photosynthetically Active Radiation" { PAR } = { Sunlight } that is available to the canopy, if you have to many stems and thick canopy then not enough sunlight gets to the lower leaves, so that really is counter productive. In a greenhouse situation PAR levels are very important so deleafing and layering of the plant helps to get the PAR to the lower parts of the plant and enables, as you said, better ventilation, there needs to be a balance between fruit trusses and leaf area,

Cheers

Scoop

"what about the buds that pop up between the stalk and the leaf stem?" = lateral shoots that develop between stem and leaf internode, sorry could not help myself, lol

Edited June 29, 2012 by Scoop1

[SundayAfternoon]

Hi SundayAfternoon, how are your toms looking at the moment, are they gowing ok?

Scoop

Hmm, bit hard to tell Scoop1, as I've never done this before I have nothing to compare their progress too...

I am noticing a lot of lower leaves turning yellow and shrivelling (dying). The upper ones look fine and healthy, so I don't know if this is normal or a sign of a deficienty of some kind. The plants (5) are faily tall, but not thick and busy, and between them have 20 small, green fruit. Three looked to be getting a bit ripened so I picked them off, haven't tasted them yet, so can't comment on the taste. (Dinner tonight! LOL)

The variety I planted is either Season Red, or TibDaengDang (sp?) - I can't remember which one now. But it's a cherry. I don't know if 20 is a normal amount, or if more will come, but the plants look sparse to me, and given the dying leaves, I don't think they'll be putting forward any more fruit.

Luckily the rains haven't yet been too hard this year, so I'm hopeful that I won't be seeing any fungus, cracking or rot... so far so good.

You lost me a bit with:

''the leaf above the truss, the leaf opposite, and the leaf immediately below the truss, the leaves growing below an immature fruit truss should not be removed because they contribute to to the formation of assimilates and to the remobilisation of mobile nutrients. Leaves retained below the lowest fruit truss on the plant will result in...

Do you mean the ''suckers''?

And, how many stems are you running on each plant?

err.... I think each plant has ONE stem...? Am I missing something?

[loong]

When you have a problem with yellowing leaves, often you will automatically think of nitrogen deficiency. But so often deficiency of micronutrrients can give very similar symptoms. But these are very difficult to rectify without a very specific soil test.

Many overlook the importance of potassium as this is important in helping with the uptake of other nutrients. If you imagine how important the blood circulatory system in humans is to keep the whole body supplied with important nutrients, pottasium is important in plants to help with the plants' lifeblood. '

I would always suggest that you give the potassium levels in your soil a boost to see if this makes a difference.

Using chopped banana waste as mulch can keep the potassium level up, this is slow, but as potassium can leach away quite quickly, it can be good as will replace potassium as it is lost.

Wood ash or burnt corn cobs will give an instant boost to potassium levels.

[loong]

For fruiting you need available phosphorous.

http://pubs.cas.psu.edu/FreePubs/pdfs/uj256.pdf

Has a lot of info re various organic sources of main nutrients

[Scoop1]

Hi SundayAfternoon, how are your toms looking at the moment, are they gowing ok?

Scoop

Hmm, bit hard to tell Scoop1, as I've never done this before I have nothing to compare their progress too...

I am noticing a lot of lower leaves turning yellow and shrivelling (dying). The upper ones look fine and healthy, so I don't know if this is normal or a sign of a deficienty of some kind. The plants (5) are faily tall, but not thick and busy, and between them have 20 small, green fruit. Three looked to be getting a bit ripened so I picked them off, haven't tasted them yet, so can't comment on the taste. (Dinner tonight! LOL)

The variety I planted is either Season Red, or TibDaengDang (sp?) - I can't remember which one now. But it's a cherry. I don't know if 20 is a normal amount, or if more will come, but the plants look sparse to me, and given the dying leaves, I don't think they'll be putting forward any more fruit.

Luckily the rains haven't yet been too hard this year, so I'm hopeful that I won't be seeing any fungus, cracking or rot... so far so good.

You lost me a bit with:

''the leaf above the truss, the leaf opposite, and the leaf immediately below the truss, the leaves growing below an immature fruit truss should not be removed because they contribute to to the formation of assimilates and to the remobilisation of mobile nutrients. Leaves retained below the lowest fruit truss on the plant will result in...

Do you mean the ''suckers''?

And, how many stems are you running on each plant?

err.... I think each plant has ONE stem...? Am I missing something?

Hi SundayAfternoon, the leaves i mention are the 3 leaves that surround a fruit truss, and they contribute mostly to that particular fruit truss, if they are removed then the other leaves have to pick up the work load to supply that truss with Assimilates, so if they are healthy they should not be removed for this reason.

The "suckers" you refer to are commonly called "Lateral Shoots" and grow out of the leaf internodes and they end up as other stems if they are allowed to grow, it is up to the grower as to how many of these Lateral Shoots they allow to grow into stems and that depends on the ammount of Photosynthetically Active Radiation { PAR } = { the amount of possible usable sunlight available to the plant }, tomatoes are C3 plants and reach "The light saturation point at around half full sunlight and on cloudy or overcast days the light intensity often falls below this saturation point and photosynthesis in the plants canopy slows. So if you have lots of consistent sunlight you can run more stems if you want, light deficiency symtoms may include, flower or fruitlet drop, plants become elongdated, thin,and pale, and flowers will take longer form.

Are the plants under shade cloth?

Does the dying lower leaves have grey or brown blotches on them, they may have a fungus.

Do you have mulch on top of the soil, because the rain bouncing back up on to the lower leaves is the main contributor to fungal infections from soil born pathogens.

Hope this helps you to understand your plants a little better.

Cheers

Scoop

[SundayAfternoon]

Thanks for the replies Loong and Scoop. It's very interesting to see that gardening has more to do with chemistry than with green fingers. LOL And I'm slowly getting it! (Maybe ) The tomatoes that I planted out in the garden were my first attempt at growing vegetables of any sort. I think I've learn a great deal just by growing these plants, and hopefully the next ones will fare much better due to the extra knowledge I now have.

So, I now have about 20 new tomato plants in pots. I grew them from seeds, but I've done things a bit different for these guys.

I've got three varieties (2 Thai bought, 1 heritage) to compare (the heritage are winning out in terms of germination rates, and growth by a long shot so far).

Though I haven't actually 'bought' anything from a shop such as tomato feed, I've become much more aware that tomatoes are heavy feeders. So I've been consious of giving them something 'extra'. (It would probabaly have been easier if I had bought some feed TBH... but I want to try and recycle as much waste as I can, and keep things 'natural' if not as organic as possible.)

What I've been doing, so far, has consisted of trying to figure out what 'waste item' contains what mineral or nutrient and adding it to my plants.

I initially planted my tomato seeds in pots of:

mushroom compost

my local market white bag 'soil' (if I can call it that): contains shells and bits of twigs and bark and who knows what?

dry cow manure

In the middle of the pot I have an inverted plastic bottle, with holes in the bottom. To that I have added small amounts of:

egg shells

dried seaweed

hair

ground up chicken bones

dry milk powder

epsom salts

worm castings

coffee

and I pour some water in there every day, hoping that it will release some nutrients on a gradual basis.

Very occasionally I will add nitrogen during this growing stage... (less when they begin to fruit and flower).

milk

aquarium water

urine

I have also made my own fish emulsion (fish leftovers and bones, gound up, and left to 'ferment' with sawdust and fruit for 2 weeks). Only 1 out of my 3 batches has worked so far, because 2 attempts went rancid due to a lack of sugar. So I've done this ONCE.

I've also used dry cow manure 'tea' once. (I soaked it for three days)

I have some worm compost in the making too, that I plan on using as soon as it's done.

I really have no idea if my efforts will be enough to stave off deficiencies, or if there is still anything lacking nutrient wise. I guess I should buy a soil test kit at some point, but then again, I'm having so much fun trying to figure all this stuff out, that it would seem to easy with a test kit. LOL

I will look into bananas (potassium) Loong. Thanks.

[IsaanAussie]

Sunday Avro,

I'm impressed, you have been busy. To release the nutrients from the items in your plastic bottle try using some EM in the water. Fermenting the lot first would help. To feed the microbes you have already feed, try using the 1st or 2nd rinse water from rice instead of plain water. If you are using town water, then it is a good idea to let it stand in a bucket for 24 hours first to get rid of the chlorine.

[SundayAfternoon]

Thanks for the rice idea IsaanAussie. I will try that next time I have rice. I assume I could do it with the water from any cooking boiling water, such as vegetables, as long as it's not salted or flavoured?

And funny you mentioned the chlorinated water. It is VERY strong where I live, I HATE it! Have been researching what happens when you leave the 'lid' off your water tank - chlorine evaporates supposidly (don't know about the other stuff/chemical nasties...) But as a precautiion I've been taking the lid off during the day, and replacing it at night until I fix something up permanently (don't want a cat or other animal finding it's way in there!) I'm going to try and get some netting to make a permanent breatheable barrier.

I've also been filling my watering can as soon as I've used it, and letting it stand overnight before watering my pots... Outside I've been trying to use rain runoff.

I dread to think what else is in the water, and would love to do some tests on it, but they're so expensive.

Loong I bought a bunch of bananas yesterday. Will try your mulch idea.

[loong]

Thanks for the rice idea IsaanAussie. I will try that next time I have rice. I assume I could do it with the water from any cooking boiling water, such as vegetables, as long as it's not salted or flavoured?

And funny you mentioned the chlorinated water. It is VERY strong where I live, I HATE it! Have been researching what happens when you leave the 'lid' off your water tank - chlorine evaporates supposidly (don't know about the other stuff/chemical nasties...) But as a precautiion I've been taking the lid off during the day, and replacing it at night until I fix something up permanently (don't want a cat or other animal finding it's way in there!) I'm going to try and get some netting to make a permanent breatheable barrier.

I've also been filling my watering can as soon as I've used it, and letting it stand overnight before watering my pots... Outside I've been trying to use rain runoff.

I dread to think what else is in the water, and would love to do some tests on it, but they're so expensive.

Loong I bought a bunch of bananas yesterday. Will try your mulch idea.

I think that with the rice rinse water, the microorganisms feed on the starch

I read somewhere that, depending on how the local water supply is chlorinated, the chlorine will not always evaporate. I've also read something about using some sort of citric acid to dechlorinate it. Not really paid much attention as my water comes from a borehole.

Some of the locals give me their banana plants once they have taken the fruit. I chop up the stems and leaves to use as mulch. You should also chop up your banana skins before use as they tend to go black and slimy.

I've actually planted 6 banana plants earlier this year, so looking forward to getting my own banana fruit and extra waste residue

Got quite a few new baby plants growing now (are they called sports?), up to 6 from each plant, so will be digging some of the babies out to transfer soon. Not sure of the best way to do it though.

[SundayAfternoon]

Loong, you're very lucky to have a access to a clean water supply. It sucks that every time I turn on the tap or shower I get blasted with the strong smell of clorine! I HATE! it. I try not to use it for cleaning my teeth or drinking, but that's not even half of it...

Iterestingly a lot of research is now indicating that chlorine kills GUT bacteria too. http://www.foodrenegade.com/chlorinated-showers-baths-kill-gut-flora/ and you don't even have to drink it. Just showering in it is enough, apparently, because it's readily absorbed through the skin. And when heated, such as in a hot shower or bath, it releases a hideous amount of gas from the heated chlorine and has been indicated in lung cancer and other lung problems! Bleugh! Doesn't even bear thinking about!

I've gone to great lengths to try and declorinate my water.

I have a filter in my kitchen (don't know if it's good or not, but it's one of those three filter systems available here).

I leave my lid off my water tank.

I leave my gardening water in my watering can overnight, and try to use rainwater if I can.

Vit C tab disolved in a bath is said to remove the clorine. http://chriskresser.com/is-your-daily-shower-making-you-sick

I have a supply of dechlorinator from my local fish shop. (I have an aquarium, so use it in that regularly). I use this treated water on the garden when I clean the tanks, but my cats seem to prefer it too and will regualarly drink out of the fish tank, instead of their waterbowl, given half the chance. LOL

I would love to grow a banana or two! That would be cool! Can you grow from seed? Where would one find banana seed or plants? And how long until they are producing fruit?

Edited July 10, 2012 by SundayAfternoon

[IsaanAussie]

Hi SA,

Speed up your chlorine disposal, get an aquarium air pump and large stone. Buble air through the water for an hour or two.

Bananas grow from the parent stem. Cut off the culm (new plant) and away your go. Well fed you will have more babana plants and your first bananas within seven months,

IA

[loong]

As IA says, cultivated bananas are grown from suckers taken from the parent plant. The modern varieties have been bred to be almost seedless. Those tiny seeds that you see in a banana will not grow. I'm not sure of the best way to remove suckers to make new plants, but if you know someone who grows bananas, maybe they will let you have some.

The original bananas had huge seeds (about the same size as tamarind seed) and very little flesh. I have eaten some "real" bananas before and tried to grow the seed, unsuccessfully unfortunately.

Apologies for taking this thread of topic.

[SundayAfternoon]

Another great idea IA! I have an airstone for my aquarium so can easily set one up to use for my gardening purposes. And Loong, I just love the way this conversation is meandering through different topics. It's much more interesting this way! And I'm picking up some great ideas.

I think I've had bananas with big seeds in them in India. I remember being quite surprised to find them there, having never seen banans with such big seeds before! Unfortunately don't know anyone here in CM with banana trees... but will keep my eyes and ears out for someone who does.

I've been picking off a couple of ripe litle toms from my origional plants, and I've found that the skins are very tough! Is there a reason, or is it just the variety?

[loong]

I'm no expert SA, but I do think that some varieties have tougher skins than others. Not sure if there is anything that can be done except growing different varieties and seeing which ones you like best.

Bananas are perennial herbs, they don't have a woody trunk. The stem seems to be formed by layers of leaves that push out from the centre. Sometimes, with a heavy load of fruit, they will need additional support.

[SundayAfternoon]

Loong, I've done just that! I've planted three varieties of cherry tomatoes this time, to test which germinate, grow and ultimately taste better. So far, heritage variety 'German Lunchbox' have outgerminated and are outgrowing my two locally bought varieties by a long shot!

Out of curiosity, does anyone know what else (apart from chlorine) could be present in Thai tap water?

I suppose there is a bunch of different things, depending on where you are, and the state of the pipes etc... but are there any general things? Floride for example? Heavy metals?

[loong]

I can't remember whether it is aluminium sulphate that is used around here or not. It is used as a coagulator in a settlement tank. Unfortunately, it is often not given long enough to settle out and some of these solids will make it through the pipes.

Certainly plants grow much better with rain or well water than with the local treated water.

[soidog2]

For something guaranteed to be super tasty you might want to try and order this pack:

http://www.tomatofest.com/tomato-seeds-tropical-hot-humid-collection.html

I ordered it, arrived without problems, prompt shipping.

[SundayAfternoon]

Thanks for the link Soidog, will take a good look at their site, but those hot and humid tomatoes sound great for our climate.

I ordered some heritage tomatoes, herbs and veggies from here: http://rareseeds.com/ and also found the service to be great. They said international delivery could take 45 days, but I got my seeds within 10 days, and a free packet thrown in as goodwill. They also have loads of tomato varieties, plus some really nice herbs and veggies (all of which have germinated and are coming along nicely!)

Aluminium sulphate does not sound... appealing...! I wonder if my filter is able to remove that, or if my plants are drinking it each time I water? Ick.

[loong]

Aluminium sulphate is often applied to alkaline soils to reduce the PH. Aluminium occurs naturally in soil, but too much can be toxic. How much is too much? I have no idea.

I'm no expert, but I think that if Aluminium sulphate is used properly to remove impurities, very little will actually get through to the end user as it will have settled out. You could put some water in a clear plastic bottle and see if you have any sediment after a couple of days. If there is sediment, this may indicate that the water company are not allowing enough time for settling out.

I believe that the local supply here had fairly high levels of Aluminium sulphate, but stuff still grows when watered with it, so maybe not too much to worry about. Certainly, things grow better with rain water, but thats probably true with any form of water treatment.

If you only have a smallish garden, it may be worth getting a couple of tanks to save rainwater from your guttering if you have the space. We have one of those big concrete jars that hold about 1,500 litres for back-up. Of course if you are going to store water for any length of time, it's important to make sure any openings are covered with fine mesh/gauze material as you don't want a breeding place for mosquitoes.

[SundayAfternoon]

I bought a water testing kit online, containing test strips for: free chlorine, chloride, sufate, nitate and nitrite, copper, iron, hydrogen sulfide and lead. These strip tests are not regarded as the most reliable of methods for testing, but it was cheap, and I thought it would give me an indication nonetheless.

I just tested my tap water, and the same water ran through my 3-stage filter.

Intersting results.

The tap water tested a trace result for free chloride and hydrogen sulfide, but the filter results were negative for both. Shows my filter is working. Yay!

However, both tap and filter water were positive for pesticides residue. Ick!

Again, I don't know exactly how reliable these test strips are, but I will look into possibly buying one back home that tests using drops, as I believe these are more reliable results.

[SundayAfternoon]

Oh, and I'm just in the process of planting some passionfruit seeds. Noticed them in the localmarket for the first time (must be in season right now?). And they were fantasticly sweet and delicious. Planted the seeds and am hoping for the best.

My aim is to get a little fruit garden going containing passionfruit, mango, papaya and banana (I've been asking around for one, and think I might have found one) in the hope that one day I can have a mixed salad directly off the plants.

In the meantime the tomatoes are still doing well and producing more fruit, despite the rain, and now a LOT of brown withered leaves, they are hanging in there. LOL

[soidog2]

Oh, and I'm just in the process of planting some passionfruit seeds. Noticed them in the localmarket for the first time (must be in season right now?). And they were fantasticly sweet and delicious. Planted the seeds and am hoping for the best.

My aim is to get a little fruit garden going containing passionfruit, mango, papaya and banana (I've been asking around for one, and think I might have found one) in the hope that one day I can have a mixed salad directly off the plants.

In the meantime the tomatoes are still doing well and producing more fruit, despite the rain, and now a LOT of brown withered leaves, they are hanging in there. LOL

Enjoy, make sure you have a strong trellis for the passion fruit, it can get very heavy and very tall.

Edited July 24, 2012 by soidog2

[rice555]

Hello All, I wasn't planing on growing any tom's till after we move in Oct., but

now in Jan. so I decided to plant some Thai OP and my OP US I grew last year.

The Thai tom seed is Bt.20 a packet(1grm.), the number of seed per packet is

on the packets. There are other verities available from different seed Co's at

near or the same cost. No western large Tom's seed!

The Other Thai tom, not the cherry is a 3-4 Oz. fruit, just a different verity of the

main tom you see in Thai cooking.

The "Burrell's Special" grew very well last year and my new seed has not arrived

and time is limited before the move. The pic of the Burrell's seed is now, there

was another 100 seed in the packet.(U$1.95)

The picture of the BS plants fell over because of bad plant support(planning) and

no time to fix the problem while I was hand smoothing rows to install drip tape for

the corn so I could harvest the dried corn before it rains came.

The last picture is the plants that were started on 7/17/12, the pic was Monday.

Soidog2, thanks for the tom seed link, 3 of their "Top 10" list is what I had already

ordered from TGS and SESE. The CA place gives you more seed for the price.

rice555

[soidog2]

Hi rice555, I know it is a little more expensive; I just like to try different suppliers, always looking for that magic seed that will grow like weeds in this climate.

TGS is on my top favorites, I will try Burrell.

I did order the "Hot & Humid" & Santiago package; bellow is what I received.

This year, it looks like I can plant early; so far no rainy season to speak of.

Best regards.

[stevehaigh]

here's my solar fire toms and jalapeno chillies coming up nicely. about 2 weeks old and very good germination rate. i keep them on the top deck of my house in full sun at the moment, to keep them away from bugs. they will find there way into the garden then they outgrow these pots.

Edited August 15, 2012 by stevehaigh