Expats In Thailand: Is Your Goal Here To "Integrate" Into Thai Society?

[inthepink]

To fully integrate I would have to give up the following personality traits;

1. Ability to reason logically
   
2. Sense of self accountability
   

I would also have to forget the following;

1. Anything about world politics and history
   
2. Any learning at all basically
   

And finally would have to start accepting

1. Bribery, extortion and nepotism is the only to advance my life;
   
2. People with more money than me are right, and their values are to be admired and respected
   
3. I can go to a temple once a year and then not have to think about or take accountability for any bad things I have done in the previous 360 days.
   

As I am not prepared to do any of the above, the answer is a categorical no. I will not integrate into Thai society. I will add value to it, be pleasant to it and not cause trouble, but I will treat the country as I treat a rented apartment; nothing more.

If there was an award for the best post in this thread I would vote for this one.

I think that Pseudolus has succinctly captured the fundamental differences between Thais and Westerners. Understanding those differences (and conducting yourself accordingly) will help significantly in your enjoyment of a relatively peaceful existence in Thailand.

I think he's illustrated that he and many other people here (including yourself by the sound of it) only engage with the those at the bottom level of Thai society. If I wished to fit in with poor working class Thais I may adopt some of the character traits outlined. Similarly, if I wished to integrate with the same class of people in the UK, I would live in a council house, claim unemployment benefit and drink cheap lager all day long. However, I have no desire to integrate at this level in either society.

[MrRealDeal]

My goal is to enjoy myself , I don't put cow shit on my shoes to try and integrate when I go to the bar in Montana , I don't dress in grunge in Seattle , I don't wear a fur hat in Alaska ...... I just be myself and hope everyone else can be themselves as well.

[Felt 35]

A yes/no answer is impossible, for me at least.

When I first moved here then yes, I looked forward to integrating.

Now, a few years later, I accept that this will not happen and am no longer interested in integrating - I just do my best to ensure that I am not disliked!

Like I should have said it myself.

[JurgenG]

To fully integrate I would have to give up the following personality traits;

1. Ability to reason logically
   
2. Sense of self accountability
   

I would also have to forget the following;

1. Anything about world politics and history
   
2. Any learning at all basically
   

And finally would have to start accepting

1. Bribery, extortion and nepotism is the only to advance my life;
   
2. People with more money than me are right, and their values are to be admired and respected
   
3. I can go to a temple once a year and then not have to think about or take accountability for any bad things I have done in the previous 360 days.
   

As I am not prepared to do any of the above, the answer is a categorical no. I will not integrate into Thai society. I will add value to it, be pleasant to it and not cause trouble, but I will treat the country as I treat a rented apartment; nothing more.

This post would fit perfectly in a white supremacist forum, just need to replace Thais by niggers or pakis.

Don't be surprised if I prefer to stick with my Thai friends

[Pseudolus]

To fully integrate I would have to give up the following personality traits;

1. Ability to reason logically
   
2. Sense of self accountability
   

I would also have to forget the following;

1. Anything about world politics and history
   
2. Any learning at all basically
   

And finally would have to start accepting

1. Bribery, extortion and nepotism is the only to advance my life;
   
2. People with more money than me are right, and their values are to be admired and respected
   
3. I can go to a temple once a year and then not have to think about or take accountability for any bad things I have done in the previous 360 days.
   

As I am not prepared to do any of the above, the answer is a categorical no. I will not integrate into Thai society. I will add value to it, be pleasant to it and not cause trouble, but I will treat the country as I treat a rented apartment; nothing more.

If there was an award for the best post in this thread I would vote for this one. I think that Pseudolus has succinctly captured the fundamental differences between Thais and Westerners. Understanding those differences (and conducting yourself accordingly) will help significantly in your enjoyment of a relatively peaceful existence in Thailand.

I think he's illustrated that he and many other people here (including yourself by the sound of it) only engage with the those at the bottom level of Thai society. If I wished to fit in with poor working class Thais I may adopt some of the character traits outlined. Similarly, if I wished to integrate with the same class of people in the UK, I would live in a council house, claim unemployment benefit and drink cheap lager all day long. However, I have no desire to integrate at this level in either society.

How wrong you are. Firstly, I do not drink or hang out in bars (certainly not the types you are referring to). I run a business employing quite a few Thais, and when I do socialise it would normally be with Thais as opposed to expats. Just because I do not wear a skirt and bow to everyone I see whilst correcting other farangs thai accents does not make me a whore hound no-gooder; I detest them even more than I do the "thaier than thai" brigade. Edited June 17, 2012 by Pseudolus

[Pseudolus]

To fully integrate I would have to give up the following personality traits;

1. Ability to reason logically
   
2. Sense of self accountability
   

I would also have to forget the following;

1. Anything about world politics and history
   
2. Any learning at all basically
   

And finally would have to start accepting

1. Bribery, extortion and nepotism is the only to advance my life;
   
2. People with more money than me are right, and their values are to be admired and respected
   
3. I can go to a temple once a year and then not have to think about or take accountability for any bad things I have done in the previous 360 days.
   

As I am not prepared to do any of the above, the answer is a categorical no. I will not integrate into Thai society. I will add value to it, be pleasant to it and not cause trouble, but I will treat the country as I treat a rented apartment; nothing more.

This post would fit perfectly in a white supremacist forum, just need to replace Thais by niggers or pakis.

Don't be surprised if I prefer to stick with my Thai friends

I find this highly offensive. The only possible reason you feel you can safely sit behind your computer and chuck out conjecture that might fit the Teutonic heritage Jurgen better than any other in the world, is that you gave up your self respect, morals and values on entering Thailand (if indeed you live here) and tried to fit into a society that at best humours you and at worst gets from you all they can and gives you nothing in return except by mistake. I have many Thai friends (not many Farangs ones to be fair) and they are not grubs of life. However, they are different to westerners in ways that frankly offends me. I stand by my comments. They are not racist, they are based upon my perception; the perception of someone who did not throw away their heritage and upbringing at immigration to be replaced with a fake silver amulet and a linen shirt.

.....not crossed your mind that I might fail a vital inference from the phrase "white supremacist" you racist tool

Edited June 17, 2012 by Pseudolus

[JurgenG]

I have many Thai friends (not many Farangs ones to be fair) and they are not grubs of life. However, they are different to westerners in ways that frankly offends me.

Can you explain me how you can say you have Thai friends and at the same time say their difference offend you ? Do you have any friends at all ? Or are you just a very hypocritical person ?

I find your posts, through their excessive generalization, utterly racists and against rule #8 "In using Thai Visa I agree: Not to post extremely negative views of Thailand or derogatory comments directed towards all Thais."

As a consequence you're now on my ignore list, so no point to reply to me.

[kerryk]

I have many Thai friends (not many Farangs ones to be fair) and they are not grubs of life. However, they are different to westerners in ways that frankly offends me.

Can you explain me how you can say you have Thai friends and at the same time say their difference offend you ? Do you have any friends at all ? Or are you just a very hypocritical person ?

I find your posts, through their excessive generalization, utterly racists and against rule #8 "In using Thai Visa I agree: Not to post extremely negative views of Thailand or derogatory comments directed towards all Thais."

As a consequence you're now on my ignore list, so no point to reply to me.

Wow JurgenG you must not ever read any threads in the Thailand News forum!

[inthepink]

To fully integrate I would have to give up the following personality traits;

1. Ability to reason logically
   
2. Sense of self accountability
   

I would also have to forget the following;

1. Anything about world politics and history
   
2. Any learning at all basically
   

And finally would have to start accepting

1. Bribery, extortion and nepotism is the only to advance my life;
   
2. People with more money than me are right, and their values are to be admired and respected
   
3. I can go to a temple once a year and then not have to think about or take accountability for any bad things I have done in the previous 360 days.
   

As I am not prepared to do any of the above, the answer is a categorical no. I will not integrate into Thai society. I will add value to it, be pleasant to it and not cause trouble, but I will treat the country as I treat a rented apartment; nothing more.

If there was an award for the best post in this thread I would vote for this one. I think that Pseudolus has succinctly captured the fundamental differences between Thais and Westerners. Understanding those differences (and conducting yourself accordingly) will help significantly in your enjoyment of a relatively peaceful existence in Thailand.

I think he's illustrated that he and many other people here (including yourself by the sound of it) only engage with the those at the bottom level of Thai society. If I wished to fit in with poor working class Thais I may adopt some of the character traits outlined. Similarly, if I wished to integrate with the same class of people in the UK, I would live in a council house, claim unemployment benefit and drink cheap lager all day long. However, I have no desire to integrate at this level in either society.

How wrong you are. Firstly, I do not drink or hang out in bars (certainly not the types you are referring to). I run a business employing quite a few Thais, and when I do socialise it would normally be with Thais as opposed to expats. Just because I do not wear a skirt and bow to everyone I see whilst correcting other farangs thai accents does not make me a whore hound no-gooder; I detest them even more than I do the "thaier than thai" brigade.

Did you even read my post before replying? I didn't mention bars at all so I am not sure what you mean by saying you don't hang out in bars and certainly not the type I was referring to....as I didn't refer to bars at all. The fact that you think all working class Thais are involved in the pay-4-play industry underlines how ridiculous your views really are

You can babble on about how successful you are and how many Thai people you socialise with as much as you like but if you truly believe that all Thai people have no ability to reason (you don't have to say "reason logically" that's tautological, which you would know if your education was as superior as you seem to think it is) and that they have no knowledge of anything at all, then you must employ, and socialise with, some prize idiots. Furthermore, corruption is not the only path to success in this country. It might be how you conduct your business and it might even be common but it is by no means the only way to succeed in Thailand.

I have no interest in being more Thai than the Thais or chasing whores (which is why I didn't touch on those subjects in my post). The people I truly detest are those who make ridiculous generalisations about entire nations.

By the way, I'd be really interested to know what value you think you are adding to Thailand - a pompous claim if ever I heard one?

Edited June 17, 2012 by inthepink

[No1]

If you didn't get here as a kid, you will never integrate. Nowhere. But there is nothing wrong in trying.

Edited June 17, 2012 by No1

[BigJohnnyBKK]

Knock knock! The only people who practice large scale multicultural immigration are western countries! Nobody else does this!

I think they do it because they fear being labeled racists.

They do it because it's in their interest.

1. keeps unemployment high enough that the low-end of the wage scale is kept low for unskilled labor

2. brings in people that are harder-working than the locals

3. diversity stimulates creativity and innovation at the true high-end professions, eg Silicon Valley wouldn't be nearly as successful without the imported geeks

The fact that there's a convenient set of "outsider" groups to scapegoat is of course a plus.

If the US had discouraged immigration in the post WW2 era, we'd probably be much further down the growth curve, and of course if we'd done so before then we'd still be a backwater ex-colony.

There's a reason Singapore and Hong Kong are ahead of most of the rest of Asia, and it isn't just the benefits of colonialism historically.

[MrMuddle]

For those who say No, I wonder why they came to live in LOS in the first place?

Better to join the Fish and Chips/English Pub brigade in Spain?

Each has their own answer. I didn't even want to integrate in my HOME country. Seems boring to me.

For once I agree with you ! I didn't want to integrate in my home country (UK) either.

Back to the topic, I don't things farangs ever truly integrate, at least in the eyes of Thai people.

I was in a car park today, and a little Thai kid shouted "Farang" at me, as though I was an alien, but at least the child's mother had the good grace to admonish the girl.

[Thaddeus]

For those who say No, I wonder why they came to live in LOS in the first place?

Better to join the Fish and Chips/English Pub brigade in Spain?

Each has their own answer. I didn't even want to integrate in my HOME country. Seems boring to me.

For once I agree with you ! I didn't want to integrate in my home country (UK) either.

Back to the topic, I don't things farangs ever truly integrate, at least in the eyes of Thai people.

I was in a car park today, and a little Thai kid shouted "Farang" at me, as though I was an alien, but at least the child's mother had the good grace to admonish the girl.

In that situation just do what I do, look at them and say "farang" then look over your shoulder and back again and say "farang tee nai"

Usually works.

[MrMuddle]

Thanks for the advice. I have however, developed a way of smiling my best smile, while at the same time thinking "you're a complete t*at", in these situations.

It works on farangs too!

[Pseudolus]

Did you even read my post before replying? I didn't mention bars at all so I am not sure what you mean by saying you don't hang out in bars and certainly not the type I was referring to....as I didn't refer to bars at all. The fact that you think all working class Thais are involved in the pay-4-play industry underlines how ridiculous your views really areYou can babble on about how successful you are and how many Thai people you socialise with as much as you like but if you truly believe that all Thai people have no ability to reason (you don't have to say "reason logically" that's tautological, which you would know if your education was as superior as you seem to think it is) and that they have no knowledge of anything at all, then you must employ, and socialise with, some prize idiots. Furthermore, corruption is not the only path to success in this country. It might be how you conduct your business and it might even be common but it is by no means the only way to succeed in Thailand.I have no interest in being more Thai than the Thais or chasing whores (which is why I didn't touch on those subjects in my post). The people I truly detest are those who make ridiculous generalisations about entire nations.By the way, I'd be really interested to know what value you think you are adding to Thailand - a pompous claim if ever I heard one?

1) Yes I did read your post. You insinuated bars unless you are presuming I stand on the corner of a street and chat with the motorbike boys or hang out with house builders. You personally can never fully integrate into the middle class / Hiso elements no matter what you think because you are the farang, nothing more, nothing less. Don't kid yourself

2) I never said I was successful; you read this into my statements. Maybe you should replace your glasses with ones made outside of Thailand, or remove the hemp dust that is gathering on them from your robes

3) I guess you have first hand knowledge of the Thai education system them; please enlighten us about their seminars and classes where they are encouraged to reason logically, challenge and question what they are taught as opposed to writing it down, memorising it prior to regurgitating it in an exam. You might struggle here though...

4) As for your corruption claims (as a Brit, If I get caught involved in anything like that I will face charges in the UK, so no mr Obnoxious spurious accusation thrower, I do not get involved with that) 80% of Thailand agrees with it and thinks it is great in a poll of Thai nationals, not the "I will wear thai clothes to look like a Thai because I am so insecure about myself"...oh sorry, that's Jurgen. Have you ever tried competing fairly in a country where your ersatz competitors throw bribes about and it's a line you will not cross? I doubt it. I would be more successful if I did but it's not someone where I will go. The only Farangs who have tried to extor money from me are those that are trying to be fully integrated into Thai society. So is this you as well then?

5) If pompous includes paying my full taxes, generating revenue overseas that get's brought into Thailand and not funnelled overseas, paying social security and being a good employer, then I will accept that.

So do you not add value to Thailand? All this from a guy who has been floating around Thailand for 9 years on various tourist Visa's (according to your other thread). How exactly do you add value to the country you now call home when you are not even living here legitimately but actually on one long holiday OR working somewhere and not paying your taxes but enjoying the tax paid facilities here in Thailand. Clown.

Edited June 18, 2012 by Pseudolus

[bendix]

Ouch.

I think someone struck a nerve, and for once it wasn't me.

Still, it didnt take long for this interesting thread to degenerate into the usual Thai-bashing bonanza, did it?

[kerryk]

Ouch.

I think someone struck a nerve, and for once it wasn't me.

Still, it didnt take long for this interesting thread to degenerate into the usual Thai-bashing bonanza, did it?

I didn't know you were Thai.

[bendix]

Ouch.

I think someone struck a nerve, and for once it wasn't me.

Still, it didnt take long for this interesting thread to degenerate into the usual Thai-bashing bonanza, did it?

I didn't know you were Thai.

Huh?

[aneliane]

For those who say No, I wonder why they came to live in LOS in the first place?

Better to join the Fish and Chips/English Pub brigade in Spain?

Each has their own answer. I didn't even want to integrate in my HOME country. Seems boring to me.

For once I agree with you ! I didn't want to integrate in my home country (UK) either.

Back to the topic, I don't things farangs ever truly integrate, at least in the eyes of Thai people.

I was in a car park today, and a little Thai kid shouted "Farang" at me, as though I was an alien, but at least the child's mother had the good grace to admonish the girl.

It's a a key phrase they teach to infants I often have 1 to 3 years old looking at me intensely and when I meet their gaze they shout "farang" then look at their parents with a winning smile, "like I did it Mum" and the mum approve with a smile too. They know their baby can get away with it, so they use him/her.

Another time a young girl pointed my bigger-than-thai feet and start whispering stuffs about them to her young syster, who then said aloud stuff in Thai about my feet pointing and mocking them, discrimination is a cultural way of life here, can't change that

[edwinclapham]

Goodness, it seems even the innocent children are now ardent xenophobics!

Some people really should educate themselves!

Edited June 18, 2012 by edwinclapham

[flying]

Sorry I did not read all 8 pages.....

I am just a human period. I do not consider myself a citizen of any one country.

I try my best to integrate to some degree wherever I am currently staying.

If I am in Thailand I try my best to function/integrate normally.

What is the alternative? Stick out as a malcontent?

To me this means learning to speak,read,write in the language of the country in which I reside.

Which hopefully helps me fit in.... or as you say integrate?

To me it also means respecting the laws & cultural traditions of my hosting country of residence.

Same as my Thai wife did when we lived elsewhere

I do not complain about their political policies as I feel I have no right to do so.

I do not help make the policies nor can I change them, so why bother complaining about them.

I am a happy guest & try to "fit in"...When in Rome

So my vote is yes... I try to integrate

Edited June 18, 2012 by flying

[kerryk]

Goodness, it seems even the innocent children are now ardent xenophobics!

Some people really should educate themselves!

At least about the feet thing! I mean there is a reason flippers don't sell well here. No one needs them!

[edwinclapham]

Goodness, it seems even the innocent children are now ardent xenophobics!

Some people really should educate themselves!

At least about the feet thing! I mean there is a reason flippers don't sell well here. No one needs them!

This is something my wife and I always joke about Kerry ..... "webbed feet"

[aneliane]

Yeah when you have a Thai wife by your side, stay in your little community where everyone knows you and you don't need to get of you behind to get some baht everyday, things are much easier.

It's very easy to make fun of the people who are not as fortunate as you are

[kerryk]

Yeah when you have a Thai wife by your side, stay in your little community where everyone knows you and you don't need to get of you behind to get some baht everyday, things are much easier.

It's very easy to make fun of the people who are not as fortunate as you are

I don't know exactly what you mean but if having big feet is fortunate then Thai women are blessed because they have gigantic feet. Not as big as lady boys but as a rule, close. The small stature of Thai women makes their feet seem even larger.

[aneliane]

Yeah when you have a Thai wife by your side, stay in your little community where everyone knows you and you don't need to get of you behind to get some baht everyday, things are much easier.

It's very easy to make fun of the people who are not as fortunate as you are

I don't know exactly what you mean but if having big feet is fortunate then Thai women are blessed because they have gigantic feet. Not as big as lady boys but as a rule, close. The small stature of Thai women makes their feet seem even larger.

I don't know ask the people who make fun of my 40 size, apparently it's overly funny

[Pseudolus]

Ouch.

I think someone struck a nerve, and for once it wasn't me.

Still, it didnt take long for this interesting thread to degenerate into the usual Thai-bashing bonanza, did it?

Not really. I don't hate Thai's or Thailand or why else would I live here. The topic asked for (incited) if and why you would integrate or not. I put my points out there only to be accused of being a whorehound and a racist of which I am neither. Strikes me that a lot of the BS farangs go through to live and work here are brought about by the country to stop those who just loiter here on tourist visas and believe that their frugal spending of their savings is actually contributing to the country. I do not agree with them, and their presence here makes life harder for those of us doing things the proper way. Inthepink is a self proclaimed one of these types (on his other thread charting his woes about getting his next visa to loiter here) and yet has the temerity to look down on and insult someone who is trying to make things work whilst applying the ethics and morals he was brought up with.

Thai-bashing Bonanza? Was that the sequel to the hit TV show? We all have a voice, yet in Thailand we can not be heard. So that is why people come to TV I think.

[WebBangkok]

Well, we all have different opinions on integrating.

For me, I try to respect the traditions, I wai people, try learn the language and understand how they think and figure out why they do some of the things they do.

I do hope to get a Thai passport someday too.

But I will always still just be myself but just do what I think is right with Thai's.

[edwinclapham]

Yeah when you have a Thai wife by your side, stay in your little community where everyone knows you and you don't need to get of you behind to get some baht everyday, things are much easier.

It's very easy to make fun of the people who are not as fortunate as you are

We both work thank you! .. and we dont live in a little community either. I do however wonder how you manage to survive Thailand with so much inbuilt negativity.

Most nations have inbuilt prejudices which includes France as well may I add. The best way of coping with it is to laugh, otherwise the bitterness eats away at you!

[aneliane]

Yeah when you have a Thai wife by your side, stay in your little community where everyone knows you and you don't need to get of you behind to get some baht everyday, things are much easier.

It's very easy to make fun of the people who are not as fortunate as you are

We both work thank you! .. and we dont live in a little community either. I do however wonder how you manage to survive Thailand with so much inbuilt negativity.

Most nations have inbuilt prejudices which includes France as well may I add. The best way of coping with it is to laugh, otherwise the bitterness eats away at you!

Oh I am negative because people point my 40 size feet and call me farang ?

I see

And when they piss on my doorstep i should thank them ?

Edited June 18, 2012 by aneliane