From Village Girl To .........

[BigJohnnyBKK]

How often I have seen foreign families take their children to a bar where the women are working and seen them swoon over a white child and that child being passed around. Some children are too young to understand what is going on others are old enough to see and understand to a degree.

When I see this happening at midnight and later, I have to question the morals and guidance of the parents. Women being groped and kissed and other occurrences like that cannot be all that good for a child to be watching.

When was the last time you saw a Thai child in a bar where women are selling themselves openly? I cannot recall such a time. Maybe that makes the morals of these working women better than that of some customers. Yet again I reiterate that not all these women are bad people for working where they work but do it out of what they deem to be a necessary evil.

Happens all the time.

I don't think it's corrupting as such, just confusing if they don't understand the context, which I don't think they could before say six or seven.

Plus the cigarette smoke and sugary drinks they get aren't healthy.

[cdnvic]

Why waste money buying girls drinks ....... when you can just buy the girl? ........ DOH

The correct term is "hire". You do not buy and sell women you take home from a bar any more than you buy the taxi driver who takes you there.

[pattayadingo]

My reason for calling it a con (offset) by quotation marks was not having a problem with her requirement but with her methodology, she looked for a quick sale for a quick commission, industries involved in quick sales teach us to look amongst family then friends first. She did, failed to close what she thought was a deal and then blamed the customer for not wanting the product.

OK, understand. From her POV she was the one who'd been deceived, she's most likely not capable of realizing that she could have got more by playing it long.

Which to me is a positive, not a negative, whether ignorance or honesty, often functionally equivalent.

I must admit I didn't see that angle when I read the OP - I'll go back and read - if she felt there was a relationship offered and was then stating the terms along which the relationship would function then my ramblings are of course incorrect and I must really learn to stop skim reading longer posts!!

How was she deceived? Even from her point of view? If I'd mentioned to her that I'd be willing to rent her and then refused, I could see that being a point of view. But I did not.

Maybe to her she thought, from what she had been told by others, that she could start by making a financial deal to start a relationship. In that case she was wrong, at least with me

[pattayadingo]

I agree with robblok on this.

Sounds to me like a man with a wallet but no personality. You see these type of guys in the bars. All the women sat round having drinks bought and laughing about it later. I prefer to have the women come to me because I am me and not because I buy them drinks

Why waste money buying girls drinks ....... when you can just buy the girl? ........ DOH!

On a more personal note.

The only drink my wife will accept is fruit juice or iced tea. Very strict Buddhist (sadly), no alcohol or beef ever, no sex or meat on Buddha days (and she won't cook beef for me on Buddha day either).

I sometimes buy a woman a drink because I want to while I am talking to her. Depends on how I feel. I am after all a single man and that gives me free reign to do what I like as and whenever. When I have responsibilities or am in a relationship that is a different kettle of fish altogether.

[TommoPhysicist]

How often I have seen foreign families take their children to a bar where the women are working and seen them swoon over a white child and that child being passed around. Some children are too young to understand what is going on others are old enough to see and understand to a degree.

When I see this happening at midnight and later, I have to question the morals and guidance of the parents. Women being groped and kissed and other occurrences like that cannot be all that good for a child to be watching.

When was the last time you saw a Thai child in a bar where women are selling themselves openly? I cannot recall such a time. Maybe that makes the morals of these working women better than that of some customers. Yet again I reiterate that not all these women are bad people for working where they work but do it out of what they deem to be a necessary evil.

Wildly off topic now but .........

1) Most western women have no idea who is a hooker and who isn't when they are in Thailand.

2) What is wrong with other people holding your baby, even hookers?

3) I see Thai children playing in bars all the time.

4) What do you think is wrong with sex, that you believe it should hidden from children of any age.

5) Baby sleeps and wakes when he likes, not when I like, older children not out before school days, but holidays?

And finally

If I were in charge of tourism, I would advise families not to ever go to Pattaya.

(I'm assuming you are talking about tourists in bars in Pattays, which is a completely different environment to the rest of Thailand)

But I understand many living in Pattaya think differently.

Edited June 17, 2012 by TommoPhysicist

[BigJohnnyBKK]

How was she deceived? Even from her point of view? If I'd mentioned to her that I'd be willing to rent her and then refused, I could see that being a point of view. But I did not.

As I said, 95%+ of the girls working in farang areas, particularly bar-related ones, wouldn't consider being in a relationship with a farang without expecting some financial return.

This particular one was either innocent/stupid or honest in that she didn't try to deceive you.

I think it's likely she in no way thinks that what she proposed was "prostitution", in her culture it just isn't, it's just the normal type of arrangement for a TG to move in with a farang. And in fact she was offering her services at a very reasonable rate, which for her was a great sacrifice, not just financially but giving up face in the hope that she could make things work with you.

She'd only define prostitution as streetwalkers or explicitly P4P bar-girls, when the girl goes with many different multiple customers, not at all when there's only one. I admit it's splitting hairs, but that's how they preserve their self-dignity.

And most Thais would consider her much more worthy of contempt if she offered to move in with you for nothing, opening herself to being scammed by a horny farang looking to take advantage of good-natured TGs.

Which also happens a lot, you hear the young/handsome guys bragging all the time how they pulled a fast one just because the girl didn't state her ST price up front - dangerous shenanigans IMO but. . .

As would I (think her worthy of contempt), but in my case only if her intention was deceiving you into thinking she "really loved you" at such an early stage in the relationship, IOW the long con.

Listen you're free to define prostitution however you like and refrain from being a customer - just realize that there's a huge grey area out there, and IMO such an attitude leaves you much more open to being scammed, not less.

[BigJohnnyBKK]

As usual agree with most of your points, except

5) Baby sleeps and wakes when he likes, not when I like, older children not out before school days, but holidays?

My babes are in bed by 7, usually asleep within 20-30 minutes no matter what day of the week it is.

Regular routine's important for building healthy habits - my boy needs far less sleep than the girl, but that means he wakes me up while it's still dark and we usually go out and exercise together.

Just like regular meals, Thais don't believe in either, sleep and eat anytime day or night many times per 24-hours.

Physically I'm sure one isn't healthier than the other, but I'd like to think my kids will need to fit into farang patterns one day. . .

[payak]

the sweet shy girl could have supported herself if she really tried, but she is not so moral or sweet after all is she.

her dogmouth proves that, with the sweet parting words she gave you.

[2unique]

How was she deceived? Even from her point of view? If I'd mentioned to her that I'd be willing to rent her and then refused, I could see that being a point of view. But I did not.

As I said, 95%+ of the girls working in farang areas, particularly bar-related ones, wouldn't consider being in a relationship with a farang without expecting some financial return.

This particular one was either innocent/stupid or honest in that she didn't try to deceive you.

I think it's likely she in no way thinks that what she proposed was "prostitution", in her culture it just isn't, it's just the normal type of arrangement for a TG to move in with a farang. And in fact she was offering her services at a very reasonable rate, which for her was a great sacrifice, not just financially but giving up face in the hope that she could make things work with you.

She'd only define prostitution as streetwalkers or explicitly P4P bar-girls, when the girl goes with many different multiple customers, not at all when there's only one. I admit it's splitting hairs, but that's how they preserve their self-dignity.

And most Thais would consider her much more worthy of contempt if she offered to move in with you for nothing, opening herself to being scammed by a horny farang looking to take advantage of good-natured TGs.

Which also happens a lot, you hear the young/handsome guys bragging all the time how they pulled a fast one just because the girl didn't state her ST price up front - dangerous shenanigans IMO but. . .

As would I (think her worthy of contempt), but in my case only if her intention was deceiving you into thinking she "really loved you" at such an early stage in the relationship, IOW the long con.

Listen you're free to define prostitution however you like and refrain from being a customer - just realize that there's a huge grey area out there, and IMO such an attitude leaves you much more open to being scammed, not less.

There is a lot to consider here and a lot to be learned if open minded enough.

On re-read of the OP a relationship wasn't offered until she asked for it however she must have felt that she had a right to ask for the relationship in the first place. I have no problem with her entering into or expecting a financial arrangement in return for leaving the bar- I have a problem believing her character had not degenerated but completely changed from sweet, innocent keeper to stone cold foul mouthed hooker in a month.

Even now Mr Dingo is making excuses for her and as such I'm led to believe he's actively lying to himself, completely deluded to her true character or has left out (whether by accident or design) an integral part to the story.

Please note this is not an attack on on the OPs character just an honest opinion as solicited.

Edited June 17, 2012 by 2unique

[Sharp]

I do not think it was the 2 months working in a bar that changed the woman, it just brought out what was contolled/hidden or unseen by you.

Spot on ....

[pattayadingo]

How was she deceived? Even from her point of view? If I'd mentioned to her that I'd be willing to rent her and then refused, I could see that being a point of view. But I did not.

As I said, 95%+ of the girls working in farang areas, particularly bar-related ones, wouldn't consider being in a relationship with a farang without expecting some financial return.

This particular one was either innocent/stupid or honest in that she didn't try to deceive you.

I think it's likely she in no way thinks that what she proposed was "prostitution", in her culture it just isn't, it's just the normal type of arrangement for a TG to move in with a farang. And in fact she was offering her services at a very reasonable rate, which for her was a great sacrifice, not just financially but giving up face in the hope that she could make things work with you.

She'd only define prostitution as streetwalkers or explicitly P4P bar-girls, when the girl goes with many different multiple customers, not at all when there's only one. I admit it's splitting hairs, but that's how they preserve their self-dignity.

And most Thais would consider her much more worthy of contempt if she offered to move in with you for nothing, opening herself to being scammed by a horny farang looking to take advantage of good-natured TGs.

Which also happens a lot, you hear the young/handsome guys bragging all the time how they pulled a fast one just because the girl didn't state her ST price up front - dangerous shenanigans IMO but. . .

As would I (think her worthy of contempt), but in my case only if her intention was deceiving you into thinking she "really loved you" at such an early stage in the relationship, IOW the long con.

Listen you're free to define prostitution however you like and refrain from being a customer - just realize that there's a huge grey area out there, and IMO such an attitude leaves you much more open to being scammed, not less.

There is a lot to consider here and a lot to be learned if open minded enough.

On re-read of the OP a relationship wasn't offered until she asked for it however she must have felt that she had a right to ask for the relationship in the first place. I have no problem with her entering into or expecting a financial arrangement in return for leaving the bar- I have a problem believing her character had not degenerated but completely changed from sweet, innocent keeper to stone cold foul mouthed hooker in a month.

Even now Mr Dingo is making excuses for her and as such I'm led to believe he's actively lying to himself, completely deluded to her true character or has left out (whether by accident or design) an integral part to the story.

Please note this is not an attack on on the OPs character just an honest opinion as solicited.

No attack taken

Using reasoning is not the same as using excuses and I'd like to think that I have used reason, especially to try to understand her attitude. The conclusion I came to is that she was upset at the time. That is not an excuse.

Other people have noted how quickly some Thai women fall into that trap of the B/G scene and in a two month period that is conceivable.

If you have no problem with a B/G wanting payment to leave the bar scene to live with you, that is up to you. I do not want to pay a B/G each month just to live with me, especially when it is her doing the asking and not me (not that i would). I'd rather contribute to a relationship financially because I want to, not because I am asked and that relationship would not include a B/G, but each to their own.

I and friends have witnessed some women go ballistic when thy think they have hooked someone but they have been played along by a holidaying foreigner. It is a sight to behold to see a woman played and beaten at her own game

But the idea of this topic was to generate ideas and opinions and that has happened and seems to have been a popular topic with little aggro in it too. That cannot be a bad thing in itself.

[pattayadingo]

How was she deceived? Even from her point of view? If I'd mentioned to her that I'd be willing to rent her and then refused, I could see that being a point of view. But I did not.

As I said, 95%+ of the girls working in farang areas, particularly bar-related ones, wouldn't consider being in a relationship with a farang without expecting some financial return.

This particular one was either innocent/stupid or honest in that she didn't try to deceive you.

I think it's likely she in no way thinks that what she proposed was "prostitution", in her culture it just isn't, it's just the normal type of arrangement for a TG to move in with a farang. And in fact she was offering her services at a very reasonable rate, which for her was a great sacrifice, not just financially but giving up face in the hope that she could make things work with you.

She'd only define prostitution as streetwalkers or explicitly P4P bar-girls, when the girl goes with many different multiple customers, not at all when there's only one. I admit it's splitting hairs, but that's how they preserve their self-dignity.

And most Thais would consider her much more worthy of contempt if she offered to move in with you for nothing, opening herself to being scammed by a horny farang looking to take advantage of good-natured TGs.

Which also happens a lot, you hear the young/handsome guys bragging all the time how they pulled a fast one just because the girl didn't state her ST price up front - dangerous shenanigans IMO but. . .

As would I (think her worthy of contempt), but in my case only if her intention was deceiving you into thinking she "really loved you" at such an early stage in the relationship, IOW the long con.

Listen you're free to define prostitution however you like and refrain from being a customer - just realize that there's a huge grey area out there, and IMO such an attitude leaves you much more open to being scammed, not less.

Odd that I have not been conned yet and long may that be the case.

We will agree disagree on what we feel is prostitution but to me a woman working in a bar generally does have customers and that would make her a prostitute in my eyes and a paid for 'g/f' from the off also smacks of prostitution to me or to put it a bit less offensively, a girl for hire by the month.

A 'financial return' makes it sound like work to me. Whereas me helping out because I am in a LTR with someone is different because I am doing it out of the goodness of my heart and have done so previously in village life.

As for her 'honesty' in the offer she made. That may well be the case in her eyes but I still will not accept what she or another similar woman wants if that is the case. Whatever her reasons for making the offer it could be she wants out of the scene or just a relatively easy ride through life.

It does seem as if we are splitting hairs to some degree but we all think about these things differently

Now I'm off to enjoy my freedom and single life and going to the pub

[2unique]

No attack taken

Using reasoning is not the same as using excuses and I'd like to think that I have used reason, especially to try to understand her attitude. The conclusion I came to is that she was upset at the time. That is not an excuse.

I meant you leaping to her defence in other posts not the original opener.

Other people have noted how quickly some Thai women fall into that trap of the B/G scene and in a two month period that is conceivable.

I read it as a month but 2 months is still a short period and we're not talking about some Thai women we're talking about one that was in your mind quite a cut above average in manners, personality and character.

If you have no problem with a B/G wanting payment to leave the bar scene to live with you, that is up to you...

No, I have no problem with her asking you hehehe

[BigJohnnyBKK]

Other people have noted how quickly some Thai women fall into that trap of the B/G scene and in a two month period that is conceivable.

...

I read it as a month but 2 months is still a short period and we're not talking about some Thai women we're talking about one that was in your mind quite a cut above average in manners, personality and character.

I've seen sweet young upcountry no-nothing 16-year-olds turn into tatoo'd and pierced hard-drinking foul-mouthed hardcore players in two weeks, never mind two months.

Very sad to see, one of the reasons I embarked on my mission to help them find decent farang without having to get into the bar scene.

The worst is when they start out wanting to find a decent farang husband and then decide to go for maximum current cash income instead by scamming.

[jamescollister]

A lot of the time the Thai girls see farangs in an untrue light, all farangs are rich and to listen to farangs they are all millionaires.

Aunt of wife, a fairly well off business woman in her own right. Never married, no kids and no possiblity of them, cracking on. Set off with like minded aging small business women to Pattaya in search of men [ white ] Aunt who speaks German got one. Now even though she makes a good living, she expects the guy to shell out, because he must be rich. I have met the guy and he probably earns less then her. In her mind if he doesn't send something why have him. It's just a mind set that will be here for a long long time. Jim

[TommoPhysicist]

A lot of the time the Thai girls see farangs in an untrue light, all farangs are rich

How is that untrue? to a person who earns 150bht a day, someone who can afford international travel is fabulously rich.

OK, so there are a few young backpackers, but the girls know they are poor, and they get very little action.

[elliss]

I do not think it was the 2 months working in a bar that changed the woman, it just brought out what was contolled/hidden or unseen by you.

Spot on ....

FYI,

the laundry bar is located in soi 6 ,patty

a regular watering hole,,,

for washed out, farangs .

[brit1984]

A lot of the time the Thai girls see farangs in an untrue light, all farangs are rich

How is that untrue? to a person who earns 150bht a day, someone who can afford international travel is fabulously rich.

OK, so there are a few young backpackers, but the girls know they are poor, and they get very little action.

...maybe jamescollister (like most of us) does not spend a lot of time with "150bht a day" rice farmers...

By the way, the average backpacker (middle-class kid on pre-uni gap year world tour funded by mummy and daddy) is not poor compared to the average old farang (living off state pensions that are decreasing in terms of real spending power). The average backpacker could have sex with poor Thai girls but that is not the purpose of their trip.

[BigJohnnyBKK]

How is that untrue? to a person who earns 150bht a day, someone who can afford international travel is fabulously rich. OK, so there are a few young backpackers, but the girls know they are poor, and they get very little action.

<deleted>? Is this the same usually sensible Tommo here?

99% of farang visiting Thailand (maybe even living here long-term) don't speak enough Thai to go in search of the fresh off the rice farm country girls that would settle for the sub-10K allowance an experienced farang-hunter wouldn't even consider.

And the latter would laugh at even 250 a day for non-sex work, those used to less than that aren't even in the farang-hunting scene at all, totally different worlds Tommo.

Many of us not just passing through but struggling to make a crust here don't have the kind of dosh the tourists do, so those girls spoiled by that level of per-week spending are always going to be disappointed - thousands of teachers here living on <30K a month wouldn't want to spend double what they pay in rent on a companion.

And the backpacker travelers get **plenty** of action, and if they're cute often don't have to pay, even without scamming the explicit P4P poor girls, they just hook up with the non-poor girls they come across clubbing, they love to go with young cute guys just for fun - and face.

Most of them aren't interested in any ongoing relationship, often not even LT unless the girl's got a nice pad they can couchsurf. . .

[jamescollister]

A lot of the time the Thai girls see farangs in an untrue light, all farangs are rich

How is that untrue? to a person who earns 150bht a day, someone who can afford international travel is fabulously rich.

OK, so there are a few young backpackers, but the girls know they are poor, and they get very little action.

...maybe jamescollister (like most of us) does not spend a lot of time with "150bht a day" rice farmers...

By the way, the average backpacker (middle-class kid on pre-uni gap year world tour funded by mummy and daddy) is not poor compared to the average old farang (living off state pensions that are decreasing in terms of real spending power). The average backpacker could have sex with poor Thai girls but that is not the purpose of their trip.

James Collister lives in rural Issan and if I could find 150 Baht day poor girls to work I would grab them, my biggest problem here is finding anyone who wants to work and I pay a lot more then 150 Baht a day. Jim

[MrRealDeal]

Seems like you went to Pattaya for what ? The great beaches ? ...... You missed out on the 10k deal , beter luck next time

[meom]

By the way, the averaid on pre-uni gap year world tour funded by mummy and daddy) is not poor compared to the average old farang (living off state pensions that are decreasing in terms of real spending power). The average backpacker could have sex with poor Thai girls but that is not the purpose of their trip.

How times have changed.

I used to backpack 30 years ago.

The idea was to hitch hike to India, stay high along the way and shag as many locals as possible, all in the name of broadening one's cultural awareness.

Never made it to India though and made it only as far as Greece.

[BigJohnnyBKK]

How times have changed. I used to backpack 30 years ago. The idea was to hitch hike to India, stay high along the way and shag as many locals as possible, all in the name of broadening one's cultural awareness.

Never made it to India though and made it only as far as Greece.

Never had much luck with the Greek girls, but it was a while ago.

The kamaki were always interested though, but I wasn't, and suspect they were like many TGs more interested in my money anyway.

[tinfoilhat]

MR OP ,

a facts of thai life ,- why work ,,,

be it in the laundry ,in a restauarnt , even teaching, for a pittance,,

when a half good looking girl ,, can earn much, much more money ,, 20.000 - 60.000 bht ,/ mounth

,,,, in the bars of phucket ,bkk , pattaya , granted would be less in the back waters , surin , udon , kk , etc.

thats the reason many issan ladies go for the easy opttion ,much easier , many money.

a lot better than working in the rice fields , many sure.

and the chance, of hooking a good / fat ATM..

i don,t blame them , i would do the same ,, if i had the bits and pieces, they have.

life is not fair ,

ee cummings? is that you?

[Bender]

To me it was a sad day to see her working in a place like that but she needed to work to keep her son, her brother's son and to help her parents. The laundry J worked at before had closed. Her friend had told her of this bar and asked her down to work in it. Glorifying her lifestyle and the money she was making.

Oh guy you make me cry so hard. Now i m feel so depressed for this little poor flower.

Its so hard to write this post as i m still bursting in tears.

You know i will talk you like an old friend: empty your bank account, sell your house/car even your own mother 's house

and send her all your money.

AND I MEAN ALL! dont be a stingy farang kee nok.

Edited June 18, 2012 by Bender

[Sayonarax]

Get her rented and show her who's got full load of washing for her.

You don't go fishing in a sewerage treatment planet expecting to fish out a king snapper, so why would you think this wouldn't apply to the locals of Pattaya?

[SJN]

Pattaya is a sin city..even for US (Thais.) Walking there by yourself or even with friends, you can even be looked just like those 'working girls'.

[bendejo]

Aside from the bargirl aspect of the story, I have known occidental women, over 30, who still live by what their friends say. Shows a lack of a lot of things, IMO.

A small town girl working 12 hours a day for 300b/day being dazzled by the big money of dumb foreigners that requires little labor is understandable -- anyone who says they don't understand that knows nothing of poverty.

OP: you thought you had a friend. And maybe you did, for a while. Her putting that trip on you for regular payments shows that to her you're just another farang. Good of you to reject it right off. And thanks for posting the tale.

[pattayadingo]

To me it was a sad day to see her working in a place like that but she needed to work to keep her son, her brother's son and to help her parents. The laundry J worked at before had closed. Her friend had told her of this bar and asked her down to work in it. Glorifying her lifestyle and the money she was making.

Oh guy you make me cry so hard. Now i m feel so depressed for this little poor flower.

Its so hard to write this post as i m still bursting in tears.

You know i will talk you like an old friend: empty your bank account, sell your house/car even your own mother 's house

and send her all your money.

AND I MEAN ALL! dont be a stingy farang kee nok.

LOL I like being kee nok

[pattayadingo]

Aside from the bargirl aspect of the story, I have known occidental women, over 30, who still live by what their friends say. Shows a lack of a lot of things, IMO.

A small town girl working 12 hours a day for 300b/day being dazzled by the big money of dumb foreigners that requires little labor is understandable -- anyone who says they don't understand that knows nothing of poverty.

OP: you thought you had a friend. And maybe you did, for a while. Her putting that trip on you for regular payments shows that to her you're just another farang. Good of you to reject it right off. And thanks for posting the tale.

I agree with what you say and no problem posting this tale. helps, sometimes, for us to see different aspects of life here.