Soil Profile, And Bringing In Fill To Raise The Level Of Land In Cm

[jsflynn603]

I'm sure some here understand what I mean by "soil profile." There are many types of soil profiles throughout the world but generally there is an "A" layer on top, often called topsoil, which is fertile and supports green growth.

When one fills land to raise the land higher than the estimated 100 year flood plain, the way to do it is to scrape the topsoil away, bring in truckloads of bank run fill (gravel/sand, whatever is available, and then replace the topsoil. My fiancee cannot understand why I simply don't want to dump the fill on top of the land. But without topsoil and some green cover, a good monsoon may erode much or all of what I have brought in.

Question: Does anyone know the thickness of the "topsoil" in and around CM (actually Doi Saket)?

Question: Does anyone know a surveyor who can check the chanote, and make a rough drawing of how high the land must be filled? (the center of the land is concave so when it rains the land which is below street level fills with about 1/2 meter of water).

Question: Does anyone know a good, reliable contractor who will do this sort of work properly?

I'm guessing that I'll need about 300-500 cubic meters.

Thank you.

[cmbe]

You can search in google for lansaimaejo, in San Sai, I bought many things there and the price is reasonable.

[eyecatcher]

You need to explain the reason for wanting to fill the land; do you intend building on it?

If you want to build on it No one would advocate the fill you are suggesting; that would need what I refer to as "Type 1 roadstone 100 to dust"

If I wanted to simply fill in some depressions on a garden area, sand is a no no, it will wash away after the first rains. I would dump in say 1-2m of sub soil (the stoney soils, the clays, basically the well compacted crap) and top it off with a good depth 300mm topsoil.

If it was to be lawned, then just 100mm topsoil to support grass growth.

and to give you are idea, you are talking 1000 tons here which is 50 large 6/8 wheeler wagons or 100 of of the tiny wagons you see more often. $$$$$

And for your wifes benefit, yes should really save topsoil if its any good, as this is usually expensive to import back in.

[Dante99]

If the land is concave, perhaps somebody already dug out and took the top soil.

[jsflynn603]

Good answers, thank you. Yes we intend to build a tiny house for father. Perhaps in a decade we will use it to build a house for "us."

It does not appear to have been dug out. It appears that the roads around it have been built up about half a meter or so.

Does anyone know a reliable contractor? And yes, I anticipated 50-100 truckloads.

[cmbe]

I think you should know first how large of the land size you want to fill up then you know approx. how many truck/cubic meters you need .

Example: your land wide 20 meters x length 50 meters = 1,000 sq.m.

and you want fill it 1 meter to raise the level, it mean you need soil 1,000 x 1 = 1,000 cubic meters (without compacted), with compacted ( x 1.8 = 1,800 cubic meters)

capacity of one small truck approx. 5 cubic meters (1,000/5 = 200 trucks)

big 6 wheels truck approx. 9-11 cubic meters (1,000/9 = approx. 111 trucks)

price of soil approx. 180-250 baht per cubic meters (depend on which type of soil and how far)

There is a company P&B Bor Din Tong in Sanga Baan, Doi Saket, they sell many type of soil.

[eyecatcher]

I think you should know first how large of the land size you want to fill up then you know approx. how many truck/cubic meters you need .

Example: your land wide 20 meters x length 50 meters = 1,000 sq.m.

and you want fill it 1 meter to raise the level, it mean you need soil 1,000 x 1 = 1,000 cubic meters (without compacted), with compacted ( x 1.8 = 1,800 cubic meters)

capacity of one small truck approx. 5 cubic meters (1,000/5 = 200 trucks)

big 6 wheels truck approx. 9-11 cubic meters (1,000/9 = approx. 111 trucks)

price of soil approx. 180-250 baht per cubic meters (depend on which type of soil and how far)

There is a company P&B Bor Din Tong in Sanga Baan, Doi Saket, they sell many type of soil.

He has said the land will eventually be for building on so the subsoil probably not as important as stone. Using stone need to add on only 25% for compaction; less product therefore fewer trucks. You almost doubled the volume of soil and therfore doubled the cost of the wagons. But I appreciate your example is only to give the OP an idea.

Then again for buildings would not need to fill and compact everywhere, just under the loadbearing walls, so you need to decide the design of the building and work backwards to design the foundation.

[cloudhopper]

Then again for buildings would not need to fill and compact everywhere, just under the loadbearing walls, so you need to decide the design of the building and work backwards to design the foundation.

Putting any load bearing structure on fill is a bad idea IMO no matter how it has been compacted. All the load should be taken by columns on top of concrete pads lying 1.5-2m below grade on undisturbed earth. Fill after the foundation is complete. Otherwise it will crack like they all do around here, or worse if there is an earthquake.

[cmbe]

Then again for buildings would not need to fill and compact everywhere, just under the loadbearing walls, so you need to decide the design of the building and work backwards to design the foundation.

Putting any load bearing structure on fill is a bad idea IMO no matter how it has been compacted. All the load should be taken by columns on top of concrete pads lying 1.5-2m below grade on undisturbed earth. Fill after the foundation is complete. Otherwise it will crack like they all do around here, or worse if there is an earthquake.

that is what I am looking the right words to say, thank you.

[dionys]

cmbe #6

Dear amigo you are missing zero in that calculation, and here is why:

The soil compaction is guided by two standards; ASTM D-1557 Method A or AASHTO T-180.

The modified proctor ( ASTM D 1557) compaction procedure is preferred to the Tx 113-E procedure, because the ASTM procedure is simpler and more likely to be carried out properly by laboratories,both inside and outside TxDOT.

Now having said that allow me to, quote the Tx 113 exact wording pertaining to the percentages:

1.0 When the modified proctor compaction procedure is used for compaction specification and control, compaction to 95 percent of the maximum dry unit weight is recommended

2.0 If the Tx 113-E compaction procedure (with neoprene pad and special hammer) is used to specify and control compaction, it is recommended that the soil be compacted to 92 percent of the maximum dry unit weight determined by the Tx 113-E procedure.

As a rule of tumb, to use these estimates is OK but please remember this standard is mostly for sand. If a specific engineered soil is required a close analysis shall be performed.

The OP stated that 300-500 cubic meters void shall be filed, thus after compaction he is looking at 324 – 540 cubic meters of fill!! [300 x 1.08] and/or 500x 1.08]

Just mine 5 cents.

[cmbe]

Mostly in Thailand they build with single footing, it is mean one footing support on one colum (pillar), then build a long beam around to connect with each single footing.

You can also choose to build first and fill later but have to make a level beam high enough from the ground(such as: 50 cm. higher than road level).

They use laterite (or red earth, rouge, in Thai called Din Look Rang) to fill the road or parking because not good to grow vegetables (or you have to fill more soil 30 cm. on top later), and they use also sand to fill a hole (not so big).

[cmbe]

cmbe #6

Dear amigo you are missing zero in that calculation, and here is why:

The soil compaction is guided by two standards; ASTM D-1557 Method A or AASHTO T-180.

The modified proctor ( ASTM D 1557) compaction procedure is preferred to the Tx 113-E procedure, because the ASTM procedure is simpler and more likely to be carried out properly by laboratories,both inside and outside TxDOT.

Now having said that allow me to, quote the Tx 113 exact wording pertaining to the percentages:

1.0 When the modified proctor compaction procedure is used for compaction specification and control, compaction to 95 percent of the maximum dry unit weight is recommended

2.0 If the Tx 113-E compaction procedure (with neoprene pad and special hammer) is used to specify and control compaction, it is recommended that the soil be compacted to 92 percent of the maximum dry unit weight determined by the Tx 113-E procedure.

As a rule of tumb, to use these estimates is OK but please remember this standard is mostly for sand. If a specific engineered soil is required a close analysis shall be performed.

The OP stated that 300-500 cubic meters void shall be filed, thus after compaction he is looking at 324 – 540 cubic meters of fill!! [300 x 1.08] and/or 500x 1.08]

Just mine 5 cents.

Thank you to help me to explain, I am not a civil engineer and I found x 1.8 from what they said to calculate when someone ask to fill the soil (normal soil) and let pass 2 times of rainny season for more compact. , and I found also to calculate with 1.6 with red earth, I do not know how come.

[dionys]

cmbe #12

You are more than welcome cmbe. You know even that number of the 92% compaction, (mainly the 1.08 multiplier) if one would really want to micro view it; would have to be tweaked a bit. When compaction is being performed you really have to do it in about 8 inch layers (203 mm) Then you compact the layer and after you done you commence the next layer, etc.. The OP specified about 1 meter deep concave that he needs to fill, (or about five layers [increments]) and that by definition will slightly increase the total tonnage of the fill material, although not by that much.

And yes you are right. Fill up the concave, say 90 percent high so he does not losses the soil due to rain and let Mother Nature do the compaction for him. Of course we do not know if this would be an acceptable option

[xen]

This is quite interesting

Then again for buildings would not need to fill and compact everywhere, just under the loadbearing walls, so you need to decide the design of the building and work backwards to design the foundation.

Putting any load bearing structure on fill is a bad idea IMO no matter how it has been compacted. All the load should be taken by columns on top of concrete pads lying 1.5-2m below grade on undisturbed earth. Fill after the foundation is complete. Otherwise it will crack like they all do around here, or worse if there is an earthquake.

This post is quite interesting but like eyecatcher has said - should not the design of the building determine the methods of foundations and hence the soil compaction . If the buildings are to be built on slab foundations then the compaction materials and methods of compaction become vital and this is why most slabs fail , because not enough attention is directed to the sub -slab construction and design.. I don't think slab contruction is that common yet in Thailand but it does save costs in the sort term and therefore is popular with developers . If using pier and beam then the piers should be going down to foundations on parent rock and the material and compaction are only important for areas of traffic such as driveways etc. Having said that you would not want subsidance around the building either.

I am not a Civil engineer either so i do stand corrected if i am wrong (.Partly testing my understanding of the subject). I do know that the calculations are better left to a civil engineer who understand these things better than me.

Also jsflynn603 , the problem as it seems you are aware of with putting fill over the top of top soil is that the "A horizon" (topsoil levels) contain organic mater which, if covered over, the OM will decompose and cause subsidance and /or release methane into the compacted levels and this can be traped in pockets which may then collaspe at a later time. I don't know if it worth trying to explain this to your gf or not. This is beside the cost cosideration of having to import something back which you have just got rid of.

[dionys]

xen #14

Xen your question are valid but you are covering a large territory of issues

First, the very simple issue so we can drop it is, that if someone wants to build a house and is not aware of the fact that he needs to clean, clear, and prepare his job-site for construction should not build a house. So that part is done

Next we need to look at the type of [building] constructions:

1. Residential

2. Commercial i.e. building , sky-scrapers, bridges

3. Industrial plants, i.e. copper smelters, coal preparation plants, steel mils, etc...

With the exception of seismic load these groups have their unique foundation requirements. (and by no means have these 3- categories covered the entire spectrum of construction)

• Commercial buildings,- specially skyscrapers, have their loading usually concentrated over a small area (small foundation footprint), they have high degree of wind loading, and in addition are often exposed to “channeling type” wind loading, positive and negative, due to location among other sky-scrapers and/or high buildings

• Industrial Plants,- contain heavy concentrated equipment loads and are also exposed to synchronized and unsynchronized dynamic loadings of vibrating equipment, violent thermo reactions, and starting forces of the relevant drive equipment [motors, etc.]. Quite often, these building are also exposed to dynamic loadings of machineries, similar to car driving over a bridge.

These types of buildings MUST have ENGINEERED foundations that sometimes includes concrete piles driven into the soil, but most of the times, the piles are steel beams driven all the way to a bed rock. Then, the concrete or the steel beams are capped with a reinforced concrete slab, 24 inches thick, or as required

If bedrock is not available, than the frictional resistance of the driven pile may “convince” the engineer that she (the pile) is fine. [Just trying to make a bit funny]. But as you can see even in cases like these (the industrial plants some times do not get the privilege of sitting on bedrock).

Now that we are done with that, the remaining type of foundations are the one used for residential housing.

The residential housing foundations, with the exception of the seismic loading, are only exposed to a static loading. The residential foundations, as you already mentioned, are either the Monolithic Slab, Walls with Footing, Walls with Piers, or combination off.

Now, unless it just happens that way, neither footings nor piers are placed on bedrock. They are placed, [poured if you will], over a regular soil, unless off course you are in a rice field, in which case you dig down until you find regular soil. Piers in Thailand are usually placed 1 meter below the surface, although I will never understand why. To dig below frost line is the ASTM requirement but a 1 meter below ground, as they do here in tropic? [its not my money anyhow]

As far as your concern is regarding the Monolithic Slab, if used, is placed either inside or on the top of the peripheral footing and really does not carry the house load. [if placed on the top of the peripheral footing it does but only in compression between the footing, the slab, and the wall itself.

If placed inside the footing the dead load of your furniture and the occupants is so small that the soil compaction as specified in the previous posting is just fine.

And now for those of you that are still reading and I did not put you to sleep, thank your attention and congratulation.

[xen]

Thanks dionys, , I must admit a bit advanced for me and i had to re read a few times . .

[eyecatcher]

Thanks dionys, , I must admit a bit advanced for me and i had to re read a few times . .

+1

Well at least the OP now has the knowledge to put a skyscraper on his plot aswell as a bamboo hut....

shall we re calculate the number of wagons guys?

[dionys]

You welcome xen. My apologies for the “novel”. Somebody should start a topic about ‘understanding women’ and I guarantee you my contribution will be a one-liner. And speaking about one liner I have a one-liner for eyecatcher

I told my wife the truth. I told her that I was seeing a psychiatrist. Then she told me truth that she was seeing psychiatrist two plumbers and a bartender. [Rodney Dangerfield.]

[jsflynn603]

Thank you all! Excellent discussion.

Perhaps "the rest of the story" might be helpful:

Grandfather died about 20 years ago. He left about 10 rai (I'm guessing) of rice land and a building lot in Doi Saket to his heirs. Father (the son of Grandfather got 1/3, and the grand-daughters each got one-third.

Grand-daughter I (as I am told) sold her rice land, and later her 1/3 of the building lot and lived a "high life," if you get my gist.

Father, a debonair fellow, sold his rice land and lived (so it is said) a good life with lots of drink and women.

Grand-daughter II (my fiancee) sold her rice land, and built father a house on his land (big mistake #1). Father later used his land and "his" house (built by his daughter) as collatteral (sp?) and as often is the case, the house was seized.

Now we have all the rice land gone, and 2/3 of Grandfather's building lot gone. But my fiancee is tenacious and refused to sell her last bit of land (I'm guessing it's about 250 sq meters).

Father was forced out of "his" house, and the holder of the lien has now resold the land. Father was trucked off to live with brother which in my point of view is essentially a death sentence.

Note: I'm an RN, and I've seen, again and again: Take an elder, and remove them from their home and their few friends and within two years they are dead.

And now, as is often the case comes the words: "will you build a house for father?"

So, ok, I'll pay to build a house for father but I predict that unless I become involved, even at a distance it would go like this:

Trucks of fill are brought in dumped without scraping the topsoil, and leveled. Perhaps 40 truckloads are delivered, my fiancee is charged for 100 (hey, who can tell?). Then the builder builds a standard Thai style rather small and simple house. All is good, father is happy. Then comes the monsoon--and the bare fill gets washed away to some extent. Then a year or two goes by and cracks appear here and there due to fill subsidence. The original estimate of 200k baht gets lost someplace in translation and ends up being more like 400k baht. Then eight yers from now, (a peek into the future) father is dead, I retire and move to CM, and we tear down the house and start over. 400k gone.

Then I see alternative II: Figure things out, do it correctly, pay a fair price. Then in 8 years incorporate the small house into a larger house.

Well that's the story.

Here is my plan:

1) Try to find out if there is a topsoil layer and if so how thick is it?

2) Try to find the exact dimensions of the land and estimate fill requirements. This can be done either by hiring a landscape architect or surveyor; or it can be done by having my girl measure the perimeter (she cannot read the dimensions on the chanote) and using a piece of twine across the land she can create a rough profile of the swale. Then with this I can estimate the needed amount of fill in yards, tonnes, cu meters or whatever. Then the tricky part:

3) Find a contractor who has a bulldozer who will really come in and scrape the topsoil off. Then bring in trucks and as correctly stated earlier, compact using the dozer at 8" intervals (~20cm), Then using the dozer, replace the topsoil. Then wait for the rainy season to pass. (As noted earlier, waiting a few years would be the best insurance, but we do not have the luxury of such time, so we must begin building ~November).

4) Build the very small house.

Though I'm experienced with concrete, foundations, and aspects of building, I'm not familiar with how it's done in CM. For one thing here in New Hampshire, USA we build frost walls 2 meters deep and then do stick construction. Frost walls are not needed in CM and stick construction would, in short order turn into termite fodder (anyone know of a huge supply of teak structural timbers for cheap? (hehe).

The house: Any house in any shape/size that can fit one adult, a toilet/shower and that's about it. I just purhased the book: Tiny Houses and will get it Friday. So in a week I might have an idea of just how small is small.

So anyway, that's the story, and thank you all.

Anyone know of a surveyor in CM who could go, and check the chanote, give me measurements and estimate the amount of fill needed?

Anyone know of a contractor with a bulldozer who will actually do such work correctly (most will say: "ok, we will dump, smooth, and compact every 20cm--but few will actually do that--they will dump it all and then smooth it out and be done with it--ไม่เป็นไร.

Thank you all for the excellent posts and info!

[dionys]

jsflynn603 #19

It looks like you are on the right track jsflynn603. Can you tell me if you are presently in US or are you in CM Thailand? I am looking at a few suggestions that I would like to send to you. Also do you know if a picture/drawing may be attached to TV blog? If the answer is yes than what format? [Extension?] Tiff, Drw, WMF, JPEG or?

Thank you

Regards

[jsflynn603]

^{Hi Dionys}

^{I'm in the states (USA) but my fiancee lives in CM.}

^{I'm working on getting a scanned copy of the chanote, with perimeter lengths written in, in meters.}

^{Eventually I can scan that and post it.}

^{I'm still hoping that someone can come up with the name/number of a surveyor who might over see a small project.}

[eyecatcher]

^{Hi Dionys}

^{I'm in the states (USA) but my fiancee lives in CM.}

^{I'm working on getting a scanned copy of the chanote, with perimeter lengths written in, in meters.}

^{Eventually I can scan that and post it.}

^{I'm still hoping that someone can come up with the name/number of a surveyor who might over see a small project.}

sent you PM jsflynn603

[dionys]

jsflynn603

If you want give me a call (951) 677-8753. 3-Hours ahead of you [west coast]

[cmbe]

Above is a example of Chanote (title deed), I am not sure if you can see it good.

There are 2 scale in left side and right side, use scale on the right side to measure how big of your land mostly scale in recent title deed is 1:4000.

Example: in title deed document your land is wide 20 mm.,

in scale 1:4000, it is mean your land wide 20 x 4,000 = 80,000 mm.

then change to be in meter 80,000 divide 1,000 = 80 meters

You can do the same to measure in length.

How to read title deed, example: in title deed showed the size of your land = 1 - 2 - 15 Rai,

number 1 is amount of Rai ( 1 rai = 4 ngaan = 1,600 sqm.)

number 2 is amount of Ngaan , it is mean 2 ngaan or = 800 sqm. (1 ngaan = 100 sqm.)

number 15 is amount of Tarang Wa, it is mean 15 Tarang Wa or = 60 sqm. (1 Tarang Wa = 4 sqm.)

It is mean land size in total = 1,600 + 800 + 60 = 2,460 sqm.

For the exact check title deed, you can ask your girl go to land office Doi Saket branch and ask them to come to survey and measure your land.

I found a company in San Sai, you can ask the price or information there.

https://plus.google.com/104595425267274126409/about?gl=th&hl