Contaminated Food May Have Killed Canadian Sisters: Phi Phi Island

[dingdang]

when this police guy said something like "it has nothing to do with the tourism industry, it was the food poisoning..."... it was a bit of a weird thing to say...

considering, thailand has an ecoli bacteria problem, contamined water, then it DOES threaten tourism...

im sure by now, its a sort of ecoli bacteria... look at the chiang mai cases...

and the two canadians too... it sounds almost like an ebola case, with blood around the mouth etc...

its strange, that so many women are affected...

probably men were too, they just survived it... they dont shower that long and that often?

Edited June 19, 2012 by dingdang

[dingdang]

can anyone here from the medical profession rule out an ecoli bacteria for some reason(s)?

[Soutpeel]

when this police guy said something like "it has nothing to do with the tourism industry, it was the food poisoning..."... it was a bit of a weird thing to say...

considering, thailand has an ecoli bacteria problem, contamined water, then it DOES threaten tourism...

im sure by now, its a sort of ecoli bacteria... look at the chiang mai cases...

and the two canadians too... it sounds almost like an ebola case, with blood around the mouth etc...

its strange, that so many women are affected...

probably men were too, they just survived it...

Its ebola now !....WOW getting more and more bizzare.....if it was Ebola my friend just abour everyone on Phi Phi would be running around with their entrails hanging out about now, a bleeding mouth would be the least of your worries....sure is not Marsburg.,.....

[Soutpeel]

can anyone here from the medical profession rule out an ecoli bacteria for some reason(s)?

A true medical professional would stay well away from the this discussion...

[Semper]

A story came out 3 or 4 weeks ago about 9 thais dying from mushroom poisoning in phuket I think it was.

I have also heard stories of things called mushroom shakes which are apparently a rage amonst party goers on the islands especially during the full moon parties. Shakes laced with powdered mozzie coils. I haven't seen them personally just something I heard about maybe others have more of a clue.

Why on earth would someone want to drink anything laced with powdered mozzie coils?

Because backpackers (mostly young) like to participate in these full/half/black moon parties and listen to loud 'music' and jump up and down on the beach all night. Something wrong upstairs, if you ask me.

[elektrified]

Dr Pornthep Siriwanarangsan, head of the Disease Control Department, said the initial investigation in the room found a large quantity of vomit and faeces. There was evidence of bleeding

The fact that it appears they didn't seek help for their illness and there are no other reports of food poisoning, leads me to suspect they willfully ingested what they believed was an illegal drug.

"The FACT that it APPEARS they didn't seek help"???? That's paradoxical in its own right....

Do you think they could seek help if they had local BIBs guns pointed at them in the room, or similar?

-mel.

I think that is going a little too far speculation-wise.

[BarryM]

Lots of speculation over the agent responsible for these deaths, the same as we saw in Chiangmai.

The lack of any real investigation, in fact an investigation motivated only by the need to be seen doing one is again disturbing.

The possibility of a serial poisoner / serial killer doesn't appear to have any bearing on what laughingly passes for the Thai police investigation. Yet given the similarity in victims profiles in Phi phi and Chiangmai Mai - all at low rent three star type places makes me wonder who the possibility of an individual being responsible does not figure.

[elektrified]

A story came out 3 or 4 weeks ago about 9 thais dying from mushroom poisoning in phuket I think it was.

It was in the mountains north of Chiang Mai. The sad thing was even the baby died from drinking the mother's poisoned milk.

[Soutpeel]

Dr Pornthep Siriwanarangsan, head of the Disease Control Department, said the initial investigation in the room found a large quantity of vomit and faeces. There was evidence of bleeding

The fact that it appears they didn't seek help for their illness and there are no other reports of food poisoning, leads me to suspect they willfully ingested what they believed was an illegal drug.

"The FACT that it APPEARS they didn't seek help"???? That's paradoxical in its own right....

Do you think they could seek help if they had local BIBs guns pointed at them in the room, or similar?

-mel.

I think that is going a little too far speculation-wise.

Naah this went too far when people start talking about Ebola...

[Soutpeel]

A story came out 3 or 4 weeks ago about 9 thais dying from mushroom poisoning in phuket I think it was.

I have also heard stories of things called mushroom shakes which are apparently a rage amonst party goers on the islands especially during the full moon parties. Shakes laced with powdered mozzie coils. I haven't seen them personally just something I heard about maybe others have more of a clue.

Why on earth would someone want to drink anything laced with powdered mozzie coils?

Because backpackers (mostly young) like to participate in these full/half/black moon parties and listen to loud 'music' and jump up and down on the beach all night. Something wrong upstairs, if you ask me.

Oh come on Semper...you must have been into some loud music in your youth which was at the top of the charts ?....Morzart perhaps....only kidding..

[gemguy]

Magic mushrooms are are known to be toxic.

It is possible that the whole combination of what they ate and drank in the 12 hours or so leading up to their demise could have been caused by bacteria and toxins combined.

I personally witnessed bad reactions to magic mushroom consumption when people ate the magic mushrooms raw and or too much (no one really knowing what too much was) combined with alcohol.

Vomiting was the natural reaction.

If nothing was stolen from their room and or all their possessions are there and intact then I would not be surprised if they died from a severe bacterial infection and or toxic reaction.

[ttelise]

can anyone here from the medical profession rule out an ecoli bacteria for some reason(s)?

Not a doctor, but I don't think so. The only issues would be what we have stated over and over:

(1) Affect just two girls (leads me to think more long the lines of botulism, camplobactor or almonella from an under prepared dish just they were served);

(2) I think they would have said something to someone at hotel or sought help. Food poisoning sucks, but rarely do people die from it without seeking help. I just do not know if they would die that quickly and without either one be able to seek help;

(3) Perhaps botulism or ecoli could cause the bleeding at the mucus membranes and eyes if they sustained massive shock and organ failure. Severe dehydration does impair renal function (BUN and Creatinine ratios) and could cause a DIC type event. Just quessing here.

(4) Seems like poison including arsenic, warfarin, puffer fish, shrooms I suppose, or something exotic could cause this, but I would look to simplier explanations because it only affected 2 people who were in close proximity to each other ruling out more environmental type of issues.

Just seems like they were targeted for some reason with something very bad.

[taninthai]

The active ingredients found in mosquito coils can be some of the following:^[6]

• Pyrethrum (Natural, powdered material from a kind of chrysanthemum plant; performance moderated)
  
• Pyrethrins (Extract of insecticidal chemicals in pyrethrum)
  
• Allethrin (sometimes d-trans-allethrin) (The first synthetic pyrethroid)
  
• Esbiothrin (A form of allethrin)
  
• Dibutyl hydroxyl toluene (BHT) (An optional additive to prevent pyrethroid from oxidizing during burning)
  
• Piperonyl butoxide (PBO) (An optional additive to improve the effectiveness of pyrethroid)
  
• N-(2-ethylhexyl)-bicyclo-(2,2,1)hept-5-ene-2,3-dicarboximide (MGK 264) (An optional additive to improve effectiveness of a pyrethroid)
  

but the cheap, non-organic ones the thais use probably contain the chemical Bis(chloromethyl)ether (BCME)

Jeez someone has got there story mixed up here, teenage thai kids were making some concotion with these coils to get a buzz but as for them being put in mushroom shakes I don't think so as others have said you would have had more people falling I'll

You lot need to calm down with all your speculation it's a shame you have to trawl through all this bullshit on here just to find an update to the story

[dingdang]

an ecoli bacteria - its assumed by scientist - does grow in cows stomach... cows are infected, but they show no symptoms and dont die of it... but the ecoli bacteria then goes into cow dung - which is used here widely... also for the mushrooms...

so the ecoli bacteria comes into the food chain...some people dont have symptoms, some have smooth symptoms, others die...women are far more affected with the ecoli (fatal) than men...it might also depend on the density of contamination, whether there is a chance to survive...water can be contamined, too...

Edited June 19, 2012 by dingdang

[ozymandious]

<p>

Did anyone else eat at the same restaurant as the girls? Or were they the only two patrons? Can anyone chime in on a food poisoning that is this dramatic? I'm sure some exist but on Phi Phi? And only these two? But... it's a good thing that tourism hasn't been affected...

RE: Food Poisoning that is this dramatic: I was having dinner with a college mate of mine in Boston about 11-12 years ago. We were at a Chinese restaurant having a meal that was nothing really out of the ordinar

[BOBBYTIN]

These things take time. You can't figure this out over night. Dr. Pornthep is a very good doc and will get to the bottom of it, hopefully.

But out of respect to the families, please show some respect on this thread.

They should insist on a foreign autopsy. Pornthip will provide whatever answer protects Thai tourism the best.

wrong,pornthip is the one who stuck her neck out many times,against alll authority and corruption..she has had death threats and if she can find out she will. the problem is too many of these youngster will try anything once,a thai picking mushrooms,even the wrong ones ,just to supply a demand is not too far off the mark. phiphi has turned into a giant toilet,anyone going there should be aware and any one who went years ago,would be shocked by what they se now,ask big A or any of the old timer.

[Semper]

A story came out 3 or 4 weeks ago about 9 thais dying from mushroom poisoning in phuket I think it was.

I have also heard stories of things called mushroom shakes which are apparently a rage amonst party goers on the islands especially during the full moon parties. Shakes laced with powdered mozzie coils. I haven't seen them personally just something I heard about maybe others have more of a clue.

Why on earth would someone want to drink anything laced with powdered mozzie coils?

Because backpackers (mostly young) like to participate in these full/half/black moon parties and listen to loud 'music' and jump up and down on the beach all night. Something wrong upstairs, if you ask me.

Oh come on Semper...you must have been into some loud music in your youth which was at the top of the charts ?....Morzart perhaps....only kidding..

You know what I mean. Actually I was more the Glenn Miller type.

[ttelise]

an ecoli bacteria - its assumed by scientist - does grow in cows stomach... cows are infected, but they show no symptoms and dont die of it... but the ecoli bacteria then goes into cow dung - which is used here widely... also for the mushrooms...

so the ecoli bacteria comes into the food chain...

some people dont have symptoms, some have smooth symptoms, others die...

it might also depend on the density of contamination, whether there is a chance to survive...

water can be contamined, too...

Doesn't ecoli also have a latency period of 3 or 4 days before symptoms occur? If ecoli, then probably got it from somewhere other than Phi Phi if I remember correctly about latency.

Ecoli though is just as not as bad as it may sound. I have seen lots of ecoli infections in hospitals and nursing homes as people get open sacral wounds and the ecoli enters the blood streat from failure to properly or timely clean and change the residents who may be wearing diapers. It is pretty treatable, but can be devestating if gets in blood stream (sepsis) and causes septic shock if untreated.

[ttelise]

About the ibuprophen - I just don't get it. Why can I walk into any Canadian drug store and buy a bottle of 120 caplets without a prescription, off the shelves, but in Thailand, I have to do the whole song and dance just to get 10 tabs...

Because it's the main ingredient to make 'meth' aka 'yaa-ice'

It is not an ingredient in meth. It is available without a prescription in both the US and Canada depending on the dosage. In the US, you need a prescription for over 200mg pills. I am not sure of the laws in Thailand but there would be little reason to not have it be sold over the counter as it is ... including at 711s.

NSAIDs are deadly when over consumed. Please refer to any product monograph. They also produce many of the conditions reported. (Other chemicals can do it to, but if the analysis shows a large amount of ibuprophen, then I have a hunch what will be concluded. As an example, people with heart conditions are prescribed a small baby aspirin dose. If you look at elderly patients, they are always covered in bruises as a side effect. Every drug has side effects.

Geriatrics bruise easily mostly due to thinning of the skin and collagen depletion. Sorry, deal with this all the time with my nursing home clients.

[dingdang]

the women in chiang mai didnt die the first night? the american women, which only used the facilities there, went to the swimming pool and wouldnt sleep in the room?

the symptoms are for an ecoli infection typical...

it doesnt have to be the food, it can be the water system of the guesthouse(s) - and it doesnt have to be all year the same contamination, which can possibly depend on environmental factors (weather...)?

latency is typically up to two days for the "regular" ecoli we know... but there are many variants... and not all people react in the same way...

a deadly poison should affect more people. the ecoli could explain that the cases pop up rather randomly... as some people show no symptoms at all..

the fatalities appear a bit "room-wise" or "guesthouse-wise"...?

and NOT all ehec-cases can be treated. people in europe die in the hospitals from it...

quite a few cases are NOT treatable... nobody really knows why this is...

Edited June 19, 2012 by dingdang

[Jayman]

Jeez someone has got there story mixed up here, teenage thai kids were making some concotion with these coils to get a buzz but as for them being put in mushroom shakes I don't think so as others have said you would have had more people falling I'll

You lot need to calm down with all your speculation it's a shame you have to trawl through all this bullshit on here just to find an update to the story

Here was the link that was posted here that started this line of reasoning...

http://www.thebackpacker.net/travel-guide/travel-stories/thailand/86/

I am the one questioning why anyone in their right mind would purposely drink ground up mossie coils. But if thais are grinding up mossie coils and serving them as magic shakes to tourists then it would follow that people that drink them have a good chance of falling ill. Also, if they are being made to order then it wouldn't surprise me to see different amounts end up in different orders.

I am not making a big deal over this but since it was mentioned I thought I would examine it.

[ttelise]

the women in chiang mai didnt die the first night? the american women, which only used the facilities there, went to the swimming pool and wouldnt sleep in the room?

the symptoms are for an ecoli infection typical...

it doesnt have to be the food, it can be the water system of the guesthouse(s) - and it doesnt have to be all year the same contamination, which can possibly depend on environmental factors (weather...)?

latency is typically up to two days for the "regular" ecoli we know... but there are many variants... and not all people react in the same way...

a deadly poison should affect more people. the ecoli could explain that the cases pop up rather randomly... as some people show no symptoms at all..

the fatalities appear a bit "room-wise" or "guesthouse-wise"...?

and NOT all ehec-cases can be treated. people in europe die in the hospitals from it...

quite a few cases are NOT treatable... nobody really knows why this is...

Quite simply, there are strians of ecoli that are now resistant to antibiotics.

[dingdang]

and IF it is an ecoli bacteria, then it makes almost sense, that the thai authorities wish to cover up...

what could they do?

the "source" is basically cheap cow dung and bad hygienic conditions...

there is nothing to change here...

they cant do anything about straying dogs and they cant check the cattle...

it is as it is - and it will stay so the next 100 years... people will die randomly...

tourists, with little symptoms, might bring it to their home countries...

one can just hope, that soon an antidote has been found...

oh... they dont cause blue fingernails, do they?

Edited June 19, 2012 by dingdang

[chooka]

The active ingredients found in mosquito coils can be some of the following:^[6]

• Pyrethrum (Natural, powdered material from a kind of chrysanthemum plant; performance moderated)
  
• Pyrethrins (Extract of insecticidal chemicals in pyrethrum)
  
• Allethrin (sometimes d-trans-allethrin) (The first synthetic pyrethroid)
  
• Esbiothrin (A form of allethrin)
  
• Dibutyl hydroxyl toluene (BHT) (An optional additive to prevent pyrethroid from oxidizing during burning)
  
• Piperonyl butoxide (PBO) (An optional additive to improve the effectiveness of pyrethroid)
  
• N-(2-ethylhexyl)-bicyclo-(2,2,1)hept-5-ene-2,3-dicarboximide (MGK 264) (An optional additive to improve effectiveness of a pyrethroid)
  

but the cheap, non-organic ones the thais use probably contain the chemical Bis(chloromethyl)ether (BCME)

Jeez someone has got there story mixed up here, teenage thai kids were making some concotion with these coils to get a buzz but as for them being put in mushroom shakes I don't think so as others have said you would have had more people falling I'll

You lot need to calm down with all your speculation it's a shame you have to trawl through all this bullshit on here just to find an update to the story

Did you read my post at #163 before you shot yourself in the foot? There is not one single time at all that I have speculated on any cause. I have never mentioned it was a toxin, a virus , a medical experiment gone wrong or even little green men. I am sorry that there are so many pages on here that annoy you but forums normally do get a lot of participants. If I may suggest, if you want a quicker update without reading all this try one of the media websites they just carry the story without active participation like the forums or chat rooms.

[Briggsy]

This thread is mostly a complete crock.

The Phi-Phi cops, Krabi cops, Dept of Epidemiology officials, etc have really done their job well to send all the internet sleuths sniffing up every which wrong alley whlie the international press slavishly reprint their baseless statements.

[kruangfaifar]

foreign countries would have fewer concerns.

Thats the only thing I picked up in this story, since imho this is the reason for the food-poisoning angle. Food poisoning implies complicity to a certain extent, the tourist should have been more careful and wary about where they ate etc. I'm not buying it. Unless it is a new super-bacteria making its debut to the world.

This is how Thai investigations always start. They immediately start speculating to justify not going after the main causes. Especially when there is neglect involved.

As far as I can tell from the OP the Authorities are being prevented from sending the bodies for autopsy at a suitably equipped and staffed hospital by the family and Canadian Authorities so your statement that "They" don't want to go after the main causes is totally incorrect. In fact I find it very strange that the family won't release the bodies for autopsy. Why wouldn't they? Surely time is important when performing investigations so there is no reason for the autopsy to be delayed. The standard of reporting seems pretty bad to me. In fact the reporter seems to have generated the whole issue of tourism impact by asking public figures if tourism has been affected then printing their obvious response which neatly leads into and speculation on "what if" scenarios. Also the reporter seems to throw in the Magic Mushroom reference at the end without any evidence of such a connection thereby creating instant factless news thanks to the power of search engines. Nobody seems to have noticed that references to the bodies being in the room and undiscovered for days seem to have disappearred. I must also say that true to form the fact that so many TV posters apparently just can't wait to find out the facts but immediately try to turn a tragedy into an opportunity to take a shot at Thailand or "Them" and in doing so unwitttingly proving that Thailand is a magnet for Losers since in my mind only Losers would take such an approach in discussions about a place they have chosen to reside in

[dingdang]

treatment is blood-laundering, but some patients dont respond even to that...

antibiotics worsen the condition...

[kjhbigv]

If only the room was not 'cleaned up' shortly afterwards!.....Having found 2 dead healthy girls and with no obvious cause....I think in most of our countries, the room would have been sealed, forensics allowed in and samples of everything would have been swabbed and examined in a lab.

The only concern I have is that they find 'something' during the autopsy BUT will never find out the source of that 'something'.

Edited June 19, 2012 by kjhbigv

[ttelise]

This thread is mostly a complete crock.

The Phi-Phi cops, Krabi cops, Dept of Epidemiology officials, etc have really done their job well to send all the internet sleuths sniffing up every which wrong alley whlie the international press slavishly reprint their baseless statements.

What have they done so well? Details please and how do you know exactly what they did. Maybe they are throwing way bags of evidence as we speak. Maybe not, but pray tell if you have personal knowledge about what they have done in this case or similar cases.

[dingdang]

in the "western world" our water is permanently checked, before it goes into the pipes...

in phi phi its probably not?

keeping the hygienic standards as elsewhere is just not possible here...

you have to bring your medication, if you want to make sure, you will fly back on a seat...