OK, Thai Democracy Is Not Perfect - But What's The Alternative?: Opinion

[webfact]

BURNING ISSUE

OK, democracy's not perfect - but what's the alternative?

Pravit Rojanaphruk

BANGKOK: -- Though Thai "democracy" turned 80 on Sunday, debate on whether the majority of Thai people are ready for democracy continues. It's still common to hear so-called well-educated and well-to-do Thais casting doubt as to the suitability of democracy for the Kingdom.

The typical argument goes like this: most less-educated and poor Thais are too naive, they do not understand democracy or how to vote and are often misled by propaganda and populist policies, as well as money politics through vote-buying.

Some even toy with the idea that only those holding a university degree should be allowed to vote, while others are nostalgic for a military strongman or even the absolute-monarchy system that ended 80 years ago after the June 24, 2475, revolt.

So basically what they are saying is that they are smart and superior while others are stupid and inferior. This writer will not try to argue that all Thais are equally well versed in democratic values, but the same can be asked of many members of the middle class and elites who support one military coup after the other, including those who supported the latest putsch in 2006. Do they really understand what democracy is all about?

Society is always in a state of flux, and after eight decades of trial and error, it can be said that a majority of people will no longer welcome non-elected government. Most people know they each have one political voice and it can be exercised through elections as well as street protest. But if some "educated and well-to-do" Thais insist otherwise, the question would then be: What other option does Thailand have?

The other option is to try to reinstate a political system wherein a majority of the people have little or no political voice. The potential of a vast majority of the people would not materialise, as they would be suppressed and kept where they are - that is, in the lower echelon of society with fewer and unequal opportunities. Rule by the elite without elections and with no accountability or transparency is a recipe not just for a repressive and unjust society, but for one that would ensure Thailand would be a backward society filled with destitution, especially for the majority.

No society is automatically ready for democracy. Democracy is a learning process and the result of competing interests from various groups realising that although the system may not be perfect, it is the least evil for most members of society. Learning to become a truly democratic society can't simply be taught in schools; people must exercise and fight for their rights and democracy, be it on the street or at polling stations.

Through these actions, it is hoped that Thailand will eventually cultivate more a widespread democratic culture where people are regarded equally as human beings, as citizens, no matter how little educated or poor they may be, no matter if they are good or bad, and that something close to equal opportunity for all will be realised.

A recent poll by the National Institute of Development Administration revealed that most Bangkok respondents long for members of Parliament who are "moral, ethical and educated". Democracy may not guarantee moral and ethical government, but it guarantees an equal political voice during elections and the right for people to remove peacefully any government they disapprove of or recognise as not responsive to the will of the people.

It's good to be concerned about corruption and bad politicians, but unless all organisations, public figures and institutions can be subject to the same scrutiny and criticism, it is almost pointless, even hypocritical, to talk about good governance without a level playing field for everyone.

Eighty years on, a political system that thrives on inequality, no matter what it is euphemistically called, will continue to be resisted by people who recognise it for what it truly is.

-- The Nation 2012-06-27

[theblether]

Check the date, check the date

Webfact stop it your cracking me up

[Moruya]

When less than 5% know what the constitution is about the problem is huge.

Maybe the only way that Thais can relate to it is that everyone wants to play Football but less than one in twenty knows the rules.

Result? No result. Just mayhem

[RickBradford]

Though Thai "democracy" turned 80 on Sunday, debate on whether the majority of Thai people are ready for democracy continues.

It's the politicians and power brokers who are not ready for democracy, which is why they continue to treat parliament as a private battleground for their various warlord activities, while not giving a single thought to the citizenry at large.

If The Nation's journalists can't even bring themselves to say that, and instead try to blame things on the 'ignorant' people, then they are part of the problem, not the solution.

[theblether]

Well.........maybe if they should actually try...........democracy

[Yunla]

Authoritarian dictatorship along modified corporativistic lines where the third leg, labour, is excluded entirely from power which is held by the remaining legs, state and business.

This article is crude and uses outdated concepts. The new politics globally are hybrids of earlier types of governance. Previously contrasting theories such as Maoism and capitalism live side by side, this is an obvious example of political hybridism. Thailand currently has a democratic electoral system, but is ruled essentially by dictator due to the fact that once elected the PM is subject to very little regulation or accountabilty, such as is essential in modern democracy. Add to that the maoist propaganda of the PTP government, the agrarian populism stuff, the immense corporate wealth of the PM's family, the mobs versus dissenters a la 3rd Reich, and you already have five contrasting styles amalgamated into one PM, maoist, capitalist, dictator, democrat, fascist.

Blurring of lines in democracies is of course easy to do in developing nations, where the watchdogs either don't exist or are frightened of the people they are watching, and regulations are not applied evenly or at all. So today Thailand is not democracy, more dictatorial oligarchy using a hybrid of earlier contrasting sociopolitical concepts and based on democratic voting.

I'm optimistic long-term, but extremely pessimistic short-term. Thailand can have a modern democracy in the future, with equality, justice and meritocratic values. This will not happen until the current PTP are removed from power, and equally importantly a new democratic leader emerges who has the integrity and courage to be a strong law-and-order PM with serious determination to uproot the corruption and battle the mafias that are holding Thailand back. Will not happen for a long time imo.

Edited June 27, 2012 by Yunla

[OzMick]

Pravit's "other option" would see the majority of Thais "suppressed and kept where they are - that is, in the lower echelon of society with fewer and unequal opportunities."

And the difference is?

The wonder of Thai democracy has given us a government which is achieving SFA in resolving this problem. In fact, they have actually increased the cost of basic education.

But that's OK because democracy "....can't simply be taught in schools; people must exercise and fight for their rights and democracy, be it on the street or at polling stations."

It seems some people prefer their voters uneducated and fighting on the street.

[devaram]

This article is simply more subterfuge and avoidance of democracy. Poverty has never been a problem for democracy look at India..

The problem is that there is no democracy in Thailand because no freedom of speech.

As soon as there is freedom of speech there will be democracy and it will work just fine.

[Moruya]

This article is simply more subterfuge and avoidance of democracy. Poverty has never been a problem for democracy look at India..

The problem is that there is no democracy in Thailand because no freedom of speech.

As soon as there is freedom of speech there will be democracy and it will work just fine.

In order for there to be democracy, people must understand what it means. If they don't have any desire to understand then they won't

Without that, you have this

[takatukaland]

Authoritarian dictatorship along modified corporativistic lines where the third leg, labour, is excluded entirely from power which is held by the remaining legs, state and business.

This article is crude and uses outdated concepts. The new politics globally are hybrids of earlier types of governance. Previously contrasting theories such as Maoism and capitalism live side by side, this is an obvious example of political hybridism. Thailand currently has a democratic electoral system, but is ruled essentially by dictator due to the fact that once elected the PM is subject to very little regulation or accountabilty, such as is essential in modern democracy. Add to that the maoist propaganda of the PTP government, the agrarian populism stuff, the immense corporate wealth of the PM's family, the mobs versus dissenters a la 3rd Reich, and you already have five contrasting styles amalgamated into one PM, maoist, capitalist, dictator, democrat, fascist.

Blurring of lines in democracies is of course easy to do in developing nations, where the watchdogs either don't exist or are frightened of the people they are watching, and regulations are not applied evenly or at all. So today Thailand is not democracy, more dictatorial oligarchy using a hybrid of earlier contrasting sociopolitical concepts and based on democratic voting.

I'm optimistic long-term, but extremely pessimistic short-term. Thailand can have a modern democracy in the future, with equality, justice and meritocratic values. This will not happen until the current PTP are removed from power, and equally importantly a new democratic leader emerges who has the integrity and courage to be a strong law-and-order PM with serious determination to uproot the corruption and battle the mafias that are holding Thailand back. Will not happen for a long time imo.

Absolutly nonsense,PTP can't do anything as long there are certain people above the law by constitution,constitution needs a change,and then thailand can move on,and just by the way PTP is elected by most of thai people,if u don't like PTP,so be it,but in democratic countries u have to wait till next election to get a new party in power,not really helpful to remove a government by coup whenever u don't like the government,but that's the only way how certain people can keep their power and keep Thailand in stone age

[devaram]

This article is simply more subterfuge and avoidance of democracy. Poverty has never been a problem for democracy look at India..

The problem is that there is no democracy in Thailand because no freedom of speech.

As soon as there is freedom of speech there will be democracy and it will work just fine.

In order for there to be democracy, people must understand what it means. If they don't have any desire to understand then they won't

Without that, you have this

I guess they are changing slowly for the better rather than changing quickly for the worse?

[Fozfromoz]

A few things on the tick sheet need to be completed for democracy:

Government acting for the best interests of the nation

Military answers to the Government of the day, not the other way around

All people have the opportunity to vote (Australia voting is compulsory, other democracies its not so)

Free speech. People need to be educated that things take time, and not to throw the toys out of the sandpit when they dont get their way (airport takovers, city blockades and burnings)

Party in opposition takes the in power government to task on all issues, to keep them honest, and apply the same rules to themselves

Have all transactions open and transparent when dealing with public monies

Fair and honest legal system, with the presumption of innocence until proven guilty

There will be many more, and of course being realistic, these would not all be able to be actioned in quick time

[Yunla]

Absolutly nonsense,

Thankyou for your input. You are lucky in that the party you support is in power today, and is working industriously, selflessly and tirelessly to improve the lives of poor people, fortify infrastructure and make Thailand a corruption-free nation where foreign business does not fear to tread. I stand corrected and for that I thank you.

Edited June 27, 2012 by Yunla

[belg]

when democrazy turned into corruption as it is in thailand and accepted and presented as normal, than people better live under a soft dictature where crimes are really punished and the so-called socialist (red) elite dont live like the biggest capitalists in the world

what is tought in schools in thailand ? thais are (socalled) better, smarter, will never be invaded and will all die for their country ... or so the brainwashing nation anthem makes them sing twice a day

Edited June 27, 2012 by belg

[avalonmick]

This article is simply more subterfuge and avoidance of democracy. Poverty has never been a problem for democracy look at India..

The problem is that there is no democracy in Thailand because no freedom of speech.

As soon as there is freedom of speech there will be democracy and it will work just fine.

It's the elites who have most to gain from restricted speech, filtered internet content and non-democratic rule. They will continue to foster debate about whether Thailand is 'ready' for democracy because that allows continued constraints on all sorts of freedoms.

It would seem Papua New Guineans - who've had democratic self rule for less than 40 years - have a better grasp of what democracy is and does and how to use it than Thais do.

[rotary]

Democracy really does not work very well due to the fact that a majority of the people in any country do not have good common sense. The USA is a prime example but no means the only example. Problem is the other options can be better or can be much worse.

[takatukaland]

Absolutly nonsense,

Thankyou for your input. You are lucky in that the party you support is in power today, and is working industriously, selflessly and tirelessly to improve the lives or poor people, fortify infrastructure and make Thailand a corruption-free nation where foreign business does not fear to tread. I stand corrected and for that I thank you.

I don't support PTP or any other poltical party in Thailand,I just see the facts,,PTP or whoever is in charge can't do anything as long there are people above the law by constitution,If the average thai citizen is good but other thais better by law,then something is wrong with democracy in Thailand

[OzMick]

A few things on the tick sheet need to be completed for democracy:

Government acting for the best interests of the nation

Military answers to the Government of the day, not the other way around

All people have the opportunity to vote (Australia voting is compulsory, other democracies its not so)

Free speech. People need to be educated that things take time, and not to throw the toys out of the sandpit when they dont get their way (airport takovers, city blockades and burnings)

Party in opposition takes the in power government to task on all issues, to keep them honest, and apply the same rules to themselves

Have all transactions open and transparent when dealing with public monies

Fair and honest legal system, with the presumption of innocence until proven guilty

There will be many more, and of course being realistic, these would not all be able to be actioned in quick time

Please do not perpetuate myths about our country. In Australia it is compulsory to attend a polling station (without good reason, or registering for a postal vote). Once you have had your presence registered, there is no compulsion to accept a ballot paper or to fill it in.However, voting is compulsory in Thailand, but it is not enforced. However, if you present yourself at a polling station, destroying or defacing your ballot is an offence.

[Yunla]

I don't support PTP or any other poltical party in Thailand,I just see the facts,,PTP or whoever is in charge can't do anything as long there are people above the law by constitution,If the average thai citizen is good but other thais better by law,then something is wrong with democracy in Thailand

By "there are people above the law", do you mean, for example, the sister of a convicted criminal fugitive, putting a bill through parliament that absolves her brother of his Supreme Court conviction?

In allowing PTP to absolve him of his one (hitherto) successful conviction, and therefor afford him the same legal status as a completely innocent person who did not have 2500 people murdered, or a person who did not spend estimated 30% of Thai state-funds on his own family businesses.

Is this the type of above-the-law power abuse you are alluding to?

Edited June 27, 2012 by Yunla

[avalonmick]

This article is simply more subterfuge and avoidance of democracy. Poverty has never been a problem for democracy look at India..

The problem is that there is no democracy in Thailand because no freedom of speech.

As soon as there is freedom of speech there will be democracy and it will work just fine.

Watch this interview and learn from two of the standout intellectual revolutionaries of the past century: http://assange.rt.com/

That is, if the Thai censors let this link through first, then let you access the website and see the interview.

Edited June 27, 2012 by avalonmick

[whatchamacallit]

True democracy starts with 100% freedom of speech and no fear of reprisal - no exceptions!

Edited June 27, 2012 by whatchamacallit

[takatukaland]

A few things on the tick sheet need to be completed for democracy:

Government acting for the best interests of the nation

Military answers to the Government of the day, not the other way around

All people have the opportunity to vote (Australia voting is compulsory, other democracies its not so)

Free speech. People need to be educated that things take time, and not to throw the toys out of the sandpit when they dont get their way (airport takovers, city blockades and burnings)

Party in opposition takes the in power government to task on all issues, to keep them honest, and apply the same rules to themselves

Have all transactions open and transparent when dealing with public monies

Fair and honest legal system, with the presumption of innocence until proven guilty

There will be many more, and of course being realistic, these would not all be able to be actioned in quick time

But how to do if both opposition and ruling party are dishonest?It's a big problem in Thailand to find honest politicans who work for the people and don't think permanent how they can fill their own or familly pockets,maybe Abisit was a honest guy,but he had no chance to show it,because he had to kiss a.. of army and others,and with people like kasit and suthep in his government ruling was difficult,wrong time for him to be PM

[slapout]

The term democracy as practiced/accepted in Thailand is like comparing 'rape' to sex. The US has modified to the extreme, what/how the 'Republic' was meant to be/operate, from the start. With all of its warts, it still seems to set the standard for most of the world.

Thailand, on the other hand, has taken parts of other governments, implemented/adopted them in their most corrupt form, for the good of a extremely small percent of the people. The center of control is held by a geographic and elite minority, this seems to have been the orginal intent as well as practice, which is still prelavent today.

[takatukaland]

I don't support PTP or any other poltical party in Thailand,I just see the facts,,PTP or whoever is in charge can't do anything as long there are people above the law by constitution,If the average thai citizen is good but other thais better by law,then something is wrong with democracy in Thailand

By "there are people above the law", do you mean, for example, the sister of a convicted criminal fugitive, putting a bill through parliament that absolves her brother of his Supreme Court conviction?

In allowing PTP to absolve him of his one (hitherto) successful conviction, and therefor afford him the same legal status as a completely innocent person who did not have 2500 people murdered, or a person who did not spend estimated 30% of Thai state-funds on his own family businesses.

Is this the type of above-the-law power abuse you are alluding to?

I don't care what thaksin,yingluck,abisit,prem,nevin,kasit suthep,blabla doing or not doing,in a decent country they would probably sit in prison.Democracy for example is freedom of speech,and every citizen is equal before the law,it can't be that certain people are better,if u start with that then thailand would have a chance to move on and maybe be a democratic country,by the way the discussion here is not about PTP or thaksin

[noitom]

Freedom of speech. Rule of law applied to "all." No sakdi na system. No "settlements" or payoffs. Standards, professional ethics, newspaper investigative journalism. Charitable giving by the wealthy, regulations, compliance and penalty regardless of status, rank, how many nas one has. Individual freedom will grow and develop with raised education based on knowledge and parenting, reading, learning how to thin for one's self.

[OzMick]

The term democracy as practiced/accepted in Thailand is like comparing 'rape' to sex. The US has modified to the extreme, what/how the 'Republic' was meant to be/operate, from the start. With all of its warts, it still seems to set the standard for most of the world.

Thailand, on the other hand, has taken parts of other governments, implemented/adopted them in their most corrupt form, for the good of a extremely small percent of the people. The center of control is held by a geographic and elite minority, this seems to have been the orginal intent as well as practice, which is still prelavent today.

The US sets the standard for democracy? I certainly hope not.According to the Economist, it doesn't even rate in the top 15.http://www.economist.com/node/8908438Wiki rates it at #19, and Thailand as a "flawed democracy" at #58 out of 78 "claimed" democracieshttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index

[Yunla]

I don't care what thaksin,yingluck,abisit,prem,nevin,kasit suthep,blabla doing or not doing,

Then why did you target my first post and criticise my original point which is that step one is to remove the tinpot crime-syndicate PTP and step two is to (in future) get a new leader who is steadfastly a law-and-order reformist. Your first attack on my post, which I responded to by extreme courtesy, in order for you to be spared my running rings round you, I am now wearing my Converse and have limbered up. Why do you say initially my post was 'nonsense' because 'if I like them personally or not PTP are elected by majority' etc. and the real problem is other mystery-people being above the law then when I point out that it is exactly PTP that are above the law and changing laws to suit them, and you then say you don't care what PTP are doing.

Edited June 27, 2012 by Yunla

[Fozfromoz]

A few things on the tick sheet need to be completed for democracy:

Government acting for the best interests of the nation

Military answers to the Government of the day, not the other way around

All people have the opportunity to vote (Australia voting is compulsory, other democracies its not so)

Free speech. People need to be educated that things take time, and not to throw the toys out of the sandpit when they dont get their way (airport takovers, city blockades and burnings)

Party in opposition takes the in power government to task on all issues, to keep them honest, and apply the same rules to themselves

Have all transactions open and transparent when dealing with public monies

Fair and honest legal system, with the presumption of innocence until proven guilty

There will be many more, and of course being realistic, these would not all be able to be actioned in quick time

Please do not perpetuate myths about our country. In Australia it is compulsory to attend a polling station (without good reason, or registering for a postal vote). Once you have had your presence registered, there is no compulsion to accept a ballot paper or to fill it in.However, voting is compulsory in Thailand, but it is not enforced. However, if you present yourself at a polling station, destroying or defacing your ballot is an offence.

Oz Mick. I know you are splitting hairs.

Links below

http://www.aec.gov.au/faqs/voting_australia.htm#compulsory

[hanuman2543]

Stop the brainwashing, freedom of speech, rule of law, basic human rights, accountability, transperance, tolerance against all groups of society.

Sorry, I can see no part of the Thai society of being able to make all this come true. Everybody is to busy to protect their "own" privileges and to protect their "dirty" advantages.

It will take a long time before Thailand will grow up.

Edited June 27, 2012 by hanuman2543

[OzMick]

A few things on the tick sheet need to be completed for democracy:

Government acting for the best interests of the nation

Military answers to the Government of the day, not the other way around

All people have the opportunity to vote (Australia voting is compulsory, other democracies its not so)

Free speech. People need to be educated that things take time, and not to throw the toys out of the sandpit when they dont get their way (airport takovers, city blockades and burnings)

Party in opposition takes the in power government to task on all issues, to keep them honest, and apply the same rules to themselves

Have all transactions open and transparent when dealing with public monies

Fair and honest legal system, with the presumption of innocence until proven guilty

There will be many more, and of course being realistic, these would not all be able to be actioned in quick time

Please do not perpetuate myths about our country. In Australia it is compulsory to attend a polling station (without good reason, or registering for a postal vote). Once you have had your presence registered, there is no compulsion to accept a ballot paper or to fill it in.However, voting is compulsory in Thailand, but it is not enforced. However, if you present yourself at a polling station, destroying or defacing your ballot is an offence.

Oz Mick. I know you are splitting hairs.

Links below

http://www.aec.gov.a....htm#compulsory

You call it splitting hairs, I call it 100% accurate, though considerably different from the view of those too lazy to explain the difference.