In Defence Of The Wonderful, Amazing Thai People - A Rebut To All Vitriolic Tv Posters.

[JohanV]

I reckon I will get a lot of flak for posting this, but it's been a long time coming, and it just felt better and more straightforward to put my thoughts in a single thread than to post countless comments on all the news threads.

I write this post in defence of the Thai people and their culture against what I consider being an increasing number of sarcastic, disrespectful, borderline xenophobic but most of all blatantly ignorant comments along the lines of “This is Thailand, and it's all f***ed up” here on TV.

I will herein make some simple statements that I consider true and I will then do my best to present solid arguments to explain and defend those statements. Hopefully it might convince some of the negative posters in here to reconsider their posting style. If nothing else it might help some new TV members to gain some perspective on things Asian.

A.

This country - Thailand - is full of amazing, wonderful people.

We westerners can learn a lot from them.

Why is this true ? Simply because that is true for the people of any country and culture.

Any person failing to recognise the fact that any population, in any culture, at any time in history has some good things to teach others and consists - in part - of amazing, wonderful people, has IMHO a personal problem with appreciating human life on this planet.

I thus recommend every person who posts sarcastic comments about Thai culture to immediately grab paper and pen and sit down and compile a ten-point list of great, wonderful things in Thai culture. If you fail to do so, take some time to ponder on why you are here, and how you see life in general. You probably have some bitterness issues that has got nothing to do with other human beings at all. If, on the other hand, you manage to make such a list, think about occasionally mentioning these things in your posts, alongside with your criticism, just to make a balance.

B.

No Thai person can/should be held personally responsible for adhering to the Asian culture of 'saving face', nor for responding to anger or insults with a smile.

Why is this true ? Because this way of reacting, and the high importance of 'face saving' in any situation of social conflict is deeply rooted in East Asian culture since thousands of years. It can be found in Korea, Japan, China, Laos, Vietnam, Thailand, Cambodia, Myanmar, Malaysia, Indonesia and the Philippines, as well as in other East Asian locations, such as the Pacific Islands.

Thus, it does not relate to personal character, but to cultural heritage. Face it, we westerners are here, visiting a region of the world with a very different set of socio-cultural markers. To expect that an Asian person should throw this heritage overboard instantly just because he is communicating with a westerner, is just as awkward as to - for example - expect a black guy from Harlem to wai and smile when he is violently challenged on a NY street by an Asian.

Furthermore, this cultural trait is shared by possibly more than a quarter of the world's population, so it's well worth understanding just from a common knowledge perspective.

What a visiting westerner should do IMHO is to make a real effort to learn the basic facts about this and - if he wishes to stay here for a longer time - adapt to it. A westerner mastering the art of ancient/classic Asian manners will surely run far less of a risk to get in trouble here. He will also gain sincere respect from fellow Asians.

However, to post sarcastic comments about the “Land of Smiles” insinuating that the people here in general are false, insincere, lying, bad or evil is just infantile and utterly ignorant. I recommend a good reading of Confucius or perhaps the excellent account of the 19^th century Chinese society written by Herbert Allen Giles in 1902. Both can be downloaded as audio books - to listen to in your phone or mp3 player - from the public domain [check the links]. If that doesn't appeal to you, perhaps watching one or two good Chinese movies will - like Hero or The Red Cliff.

C.

Bad behaviour, thugs, violence, crime, corruption and biased, unfair handling of situations from Police or other authorities are in fact global features. Violence is not on the increase.

As awful as it is, bad things happens everywhere. Different regions may have slightly different profiles of their 'badness' - the U.S. has more gun-related crimes than Europe, for instance, but as a whole, every part of the world has these problems. Every country has parts of their media reporting being controlled or biased - for business reasons or for political reasons. Every country has cases of foreigners being treated unfair and against the official rules by immigration, Police or other authorities. Some countries have more problems than others - e.g. some African states and some South American ones.

Overall, Thailand is ending up somewhere slightly average. If this is such a negative fact that it in your opinion justifies the kind of general disrespect for the Thai people seen in posts here, then why, in heaven's name, come here at all? These facts are not secret. They are well available from any westerner's home country prior to booking a ticket. A bit of personal accountability on the side of choosing the destination of one's own travel would be fitting IMHO.

Regarding the various comments seen about 'the violence increasing' I just would like to point out that it sure was far more dangerous to travel, say, 200 years ago. Or 1000 years ago. Even in the last century most of the convenience and security we today take for granted didn't exist at all. Not here, neither in Europe, nor elsewhere.

So: No, violence is not on the rise. It is on the decline - all over the world. This is one of the really good effects of globalisation and communication. For one example of a good factual background to this statement, check out Stephen Pinker's excellent TED speech here.

D.

Westerners in general know very little about Asian history and culture. But we often tend to act as we know it all - better than others. Our 'good education' doesn't qualify us to teach Asian people how to think or act.

Now, let me start by pointing out that this is just as un-personal as the Asian smile mentioned above. It is simply a western cultural trait. We are traditionally quite dominant and all over the world we can see the scars of that - I refer to colonisation and slave trade, of course. Nevertheless it is a good idea for any travelling westerner to keep this in mind and perhaps try to tone it down.

I think anyone who travels to the far side of the world and comes home without having learnt to see things from other perspectives have seriously missed a great opportunity to evolve as a person.

As a treat, let me ask you (well educated) westerners:

Do you know what these two ships are ?

And, if you do, how many of you were taught about it in a western school ?

[ note that they are both in scale ]

Here are the amazing facts:

• The right, tiny ship is the Santa Maria, that carried Christopher Columbus on his historical journey over the Atlantic.
  
• The left, huge ship was built 80 years earlier(!) and carried Zheng He on voyages around the South China Sea, the East China Sea and across the Indian Ocean to Madagascar and East Africa!
  Did he colonise it ? No. Just traded. Asian style.
  

I think anyone can see where the superior technology is. This is just one example of the greatness of Asia and Asian culture. We westerners learn only about the greatness of Columbus in our 'superior' schools. Is it really fair to say that the Chinese trip was so unimportant an event that it doesn't deserve a place in our western history books ?? - ..the 'World History' as we call it..

The above is taken from a very interesting TED speech by Martin Jacques on China.

I think it shows exactly how narrow-minded and ethnocentric our western education and culture can be at times. And, it is a good reminder of how much we westerners still have to learn about this part of the world.

So. let me finish by repeating that last word: learn.

That's the true cure for vitriolic sarcasm and negativeness, I would say. Just think about that.

Thanks for taking your time to read.

Bless you all. I hope you will enjoy your time in Asia.

Edited July 1, 2012 by JohanV

[473geo]

Well worth the effort, appreciated, thanks

[Beetlejuice]

I`ll answer you once I discover what vitriolic means.

[travelmann]

Saving face, have seen it many times as an excuse for crap work or behaviour, it doesnt save face for me they just make themselves look more stupid/liars.

Ok so list the Thai inventions again for us...............oh hang on we had that thread a while back with no real answers.

Is this like the God arguments where if you dont believe you will never understand?

A motorcycle drives into me whilst im stationary at a junction waiting to turn right, the driver just turns onto my left hand side wing whilst also waiting to turn right

( i think they forgot I was there in my pick up), its my fault, its Asian culture, I must understand. no its loss of face, result they drive off, I follow stop them they say its my fault they have no number plate and drive off.

Dont worry I kept smiling.

Whats with Columbus? just religious rubbish you think we all think he is a genius when we know the Vikings did America before.

Sorry the West has a better perspective for me and more freedom.

Asian society in Thailand seems to run on fear, fear to speak out, fear to complain.

If Zheng had headed East and made it to America it would be more impressive and crossed the Pacific. so what he had a big ship, might have been a pig to steer, might have been slow, big doesnt always mean better or good. Glad to hear China doesnt colonise, expect Tibet will be pleased too.

Ok ive finished learning thanks

Yep seems like Zheng was real nice guy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zheng_He

Asian culture haaaaaaa

Edited July 1, 2012 by travelmann

[Banzai99]

Sorry the West has a better perspective for me and more freedom.

Asian society in Thailand seems to run on fear, fear to speak out, fear to complain.

Fair enough, I guess thats why you live in the west, you're fortunate to have the choice, most Thai people don't.

[loong]

No Thai person can/should be held personally responsible for adhering to the Asian culture of 'saving face', nor for responding to anger or insults with a smile.

Do you really believe that Thai people respond to anger and insults with a smile?

[smokie36]

What a load of rubbish.

[JohanV]

@travelmann:

Saving face, have seen it many times as an excuse for crap work or behaviour,

Crap work - however bad it is - is not 'because of' the Asian social culture of saving face.

Epic rethoric fail. Try again.

Whats with Columbus?

Nothing more than that he happened to be on a picture comparing Portuguese technology with Chinese.

And ?

Asian society in Thailand seems to run on fear, fear to speak out, fear to complain.

Many societies run on fear these days. Take the U.S. for example. Lots of fear in there for sure.

My cousin lives in Hollywood, LA. She has alarms all over her house. Fear to be attacked, fear

of strangers, fear of people. Yes, there's lot of fear around. I work in London. People are quite

scared there, too. So what's with that ?

so what he had a big ship, might have been a pig to steer,

Actually those masts were individually manouverable, very smart and very easy to steer.

Far better than the Portuguese ship. A naval professional told me that. Personally I don't know

crap about boats, but I trust him.

Glad to hear China doesnt colonise, expect Tibet will be pleased too.

If you seriously believe China has 'colonised' Tibet you are blatantly ignorant.

The communists fight with the teocratic monks - however bad that is - does not

change the fact that Tibet has been a part of China for several hundred years.

A bit like Wales to the United Kingdom, actually.

You're a victim of teocratic propaganda. And you are making a fool of youself.

Ok ive finished learning thanks

Seems to me you never even started.

Yep seems like Zheng was real nice guy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zheng_He

Asian culture haaaaaaa

So, you look something up on Wikipedia and 2 minutes later you know enough about history

to diss the entire culture of Asia. Impressive.

Seriously. You are a perfect example of a vitriolic, negative TV poster.

Why do you even bother to post here ? You obviously can't think of anything worse than

Thais and Asian culture. Are you here for revenge or just to spread your hatred for the fun of it ?

Relax. Try to smile a bit. Life's a great ting if you want it to.

[Jingthing]

I think I see a book deal pitch here:

Being Thai-ier Than Thai For Dummies

[JohanV]

No Thai person can/should be held personally responsible for adhering to the Asian culture of 'saving face', nor for responding to anger or insults with a smile.

Do you really believe that Thai people respond to anger and insults with a smile?

Yes. At first. Many Asians - not only Thais - react with a smile when they feel confused,

or don't know what to say, feel embarrassed or even annoyed. Possibly to get some emotional

'slack' while they ponder how to deal with the situation.

That is not to say that's the only reaction. If the line is crossed, the smile's gone, of course.

This is especially common in official situations. A tour guide or hotel receptionist for example.

[cdnvic]

Too much name calling and insults by the OP and respondants. Rather than handing out sanctions, I'm just closing this argumenative thread.