Retirement Plan

[letitbe]

As a follow up to my previous post, I am inserting a quote from Richard Lehman's website incomesecurities.com concerning his book.

Income Investing Today

By Richard Lehmann

Income Investing Today details a safe alternative to the downside risks inherent in the stock market--income securities that can provide a 7% to 8% annual cash income. With this book, fixed income expert Richard Lehmann outlines income investing concepts you need to understand, various investment vehicles, and investment strategies that will help you build a safe, diversified portfolio of investments.

The investment vehicles he explains range well beyond traditional fixed income securities or creditor instruments such as bonds, to include hybrids, REITs, mutual funds, and more. He shows that the key to building a steady, growth-oriented income portfolio is to diversify over a variety of securities that depend on different drivers--that is, portfolios that are not vulnerable to any one specific economic factor such as interest rates.

The ideal guide for individual investors saving for retirement and seeking more safety in their portfolios, Income Investing Today shows how a diversified collection of income securities can equal or exceed the returns from common stock with much lower risk.

You can order the book directly from the website. I've read it. It's very informative. By the way, an income of 7% on income securities investments of 50 million would yield 3.5 million per year or nearly 292,000 per month. You would never need to touch your principal to have a wonderful lifestyle. I've taken on a little more risk and am making about 9% on my income securities investments.

As a follow up to my previous post, I am inserting a quote from Richard Lehman's website incomesecurities.com concerning his book.

Income Investing Today

By Richard Lehmann

Income Investing Today details a safe alternative to the downside risks inherent in the stock market--income securities that can provide a 7% to 8% annual cash income. With this book, fixed income expert Richard Lehmann outlines income investing concepts you need to understand, various investment vehicles, and investment strategies that will help you build a safe, diversified portfolio of investments.

The investment vehicles he explains range well beyond traditional fixed income securities or creditor instruments such as bonds, to include hybrids, REITs, mutual funds, and more. He shows that the key to building a steady, growth-oriented income portfolio is to diversify over a variety of securities that depend on different drivers--that is, portfolios that are not vulnerable to any one specific economic factor such as interest rates.

The ideal guide for individual investors saving for retirement and seeking more safety in their portfolios, Income Investing Today shows how a diversified collection of income securities can equal or exceed the returns from common stock with much lower risk.

You can order the book directly from the website. I've read it. It's very informative. By the way, an income of 7% on income securities investments of 50 million would yield 3.5 million per year or nearly 292,000 per month. You would never need to touch your principal to have a wonderful lifestyle. I've taken on a little more risk and am making about 9% on my income securities investments.

Good luck with that crap and when house of cars fall dont come begging to me please. When will some of you ever learn ???

[endure]

The trick is, not to use up your capital.

Therefore don't calculate that you will use up all until you are 85. It will not work out and you become 100.

Live from returns and try to increase your capital by the inflation rate.

One thing you may consider for "long life risk" is a pension insurance. European companies offer them, but use a good one, for example from Switzerland.

You pay a lump sum into the insurance and then you get an immediate pension until you die. If you die early - good for the insurance. If you live long - bad for the insurance.

The disadvantage of such a model is that the interest rate and thus the monthly return is not very good. But you don't need to worry if your money lasts long enough. They pay until you are dead.

This is interesting, do you have a website with details?

Thanks.

Just look up 'annuity'.

[crazygreg44]

as the financial and investment markets seem to be a bit unsafe, why not consider buying a whole multistory house for a lump sum of 25M Baht in an European country, and rent it's flats out ? Of course you still have to care about the tenants, but can combine it with a trip abroad. And the revenue is safe, whilest the money does not get less - real estate in a good location does not loose value. You can easily rent out 4-5 flats for 160,000 Baht per month altogether, pay some tax on it and not have to worry much more. And still have 25M Baht left for putting it into a foreign ( not Thai!) bank for a good interest rate, or just anything like spending it on the long run.

I think your worries are you do not want to die as a poor man, and you seem to feel unsafe if 50M Baht is enough?? Personally, i would like to die as a poor man, if I knew my lifespan. I do not want to die as a rich man. I like the idea of having spent it all on fun, more fun, good food and a lot of travelling. Materilistic views -houses,cars,yachts etc do not bother me much. They cost money in keeping. A life only goes a long way.

[JurgenG]

Dying poor I don't care. If today I lose all my money, I don't care either. I can earn it again.And it will faster and easier since I learned from my previous mistakes.

What I don't want is getting old and one day finding myself without resources. When I retire, I want to enjoy the rest of my life without worries. That's it.

[Gweiloman]

Jurgen,

Personally, I don't think that 50 million baht is sufficient for two persons to retire on. Apart from the ever creeping inflation, a major medical outlay will blow part of that money (situation that Murgatroyd faced).

Having said that, I think a more sensible approach will be from the monthly requirement aspect as opposed to the lump sum aspect. You mentioned 60,000 bht a month, with two fully paid up houses. Even this is not really sufficient as it does not allow for contingencies. Think that there is ever present maintenance and upkeep required on the homes. Think also that you would probably want to change your car/s every 5 years or so. Retiring does not mean compromising on your lifestyle, something that you and your wife have worked hard all your lives for.

Personally, I will be budgeting a minimum of 100,000 a month when I retire, more if possible. I take into account that when I'm retired, I will not need to spend as much on food and entertainment as I do now, as well as on other hobbies such as golf, motorcycling etc. Other expenses will also be reduced, such as petrol, shopping for clothes, shoes etc.

In order to achieve my goal, I try to have as diversified a portfolio as possible. I'm not sure of your age but I have 5 insurance policies bought at various times when I was much younger (combination of whole life, endowment etc) that upon maturity (in the coming few years) should give me a fairly large capital sum. My idea is to purchase a couple of properties for the rental income, purchase more stocks that are dividend driven (eg BP) and the rest in guaranteed returns (fixed deposits, bonds etc). On top of that, I will have an annuity payout from another investment.

The idea of setting a slightly higher monthly "income" is that most people forget about unexpected expenses. A large part of today's financial crisis is caused by people being mortgaged to the hilt and then spending every last available cent/penny on day to day expenses. The moment something comes up (such as Christmas even, for gifts), a lot of people struggle and accumulate credit card debts. Thus, if you set a target of 100k per month and end up only spending 80k for 5 months, that gives you a surplus of 100k for little things like buying yourself a new golf set, a quick romantic getaway for two at a Banyan resort, etc etc. Always have a safety net, even for monthly incomings and outgoings.

Edited July 3, 2012 by Gweiloman

[GreenSnapper]

Personally, I don't think that 50 million baht is sufficient for two persons to retire on

That is nonsense. As has been shown in different calculations above.

There are "retirement calculators" you can find in the net. Use it with different scenarios of incoming interest, inflation and expenses.

Health care should not be a major issue unless you are not insured. Insurance is not expensive, as long you are not too old when you enter.

Renting out property in a European country is a bad idea: You will be taxed 25% or more, depending on the country. You have to pay for managing your properties. You have to pay for repairs. People may not pay their rents and getting them out will be a costly lengthy court trial. Renters have a high degree of protection in Europe, different to Asia. This all will dig deeply into your monthly returns.

Personally I'm not a great friend of real estate. But that's just my opinion, others have done well. There are some experienced guys in the real estate forum of TV. Read up their stories, but keep in mind there's also a lot of BS written there.

During the last 12 years, I have a yearly return of about 8% of my investments. I'm in a similar boat as the OP: I cannot afford to lose my assets. So I'm very careful. When I say "5% is possible" then I take out most risks already. Of course, shit may happen and the world economy may collapse. But with the assets of the OP, he should be on the safe side if he invests carefully.

There is no need to be too scared to end up penniless. With 50M you can enjoy quite a nice life without worries.

[Gweiloman]

Personally, I don't think that 50 million baht is sufficient for two persons to retire on

That is nonsense. As has been shown in different calculations above.

There are "retirement calculators" you can find in the net. Use it with different scenarios of incoming interest, inflation and expenses.

Health care should not be a major issue unless you are not insured. Insurance is not expensive, as long you are not too old when you enter.

Renting out property in a European country is a bad idea: You will be taxed 25% or more, depending on the country. You have to pay for managing your properties. You have to pay for repairs. People may not pay their rents and getting them out will be a costly lengthy court trial. Renters have a high degree of protection in Europe, different to Asia. This all will dig deeply into your monthly returns.

Personally I'm not a great friend of real estate. But that's just my opinion, others have done well. There are some experienced guys in the real estate forum of TV. Read up their stories, but keep in mind there's also a lot of BS written there.

During the last 12 years, I have a yearly return of about 8% of my investments. I'm in a similar boat as the OP: I cannot afford to lose my assets. So I'm very careful. When I say "5% is possible" then I take out most risks already. Of course, shit may happen and the world economy may collapse. But with the assets of the OP, he should be on the safe side if he invests carefully.

There is no need to be too scared to end up penniless. With 50M you can enjoy quite a nice life without worries.

Whether an arbitrary amount is nonsensical or not depends very much on one's desires and current standard of living. Some posters here can live on 10,000 a month for a family of five, some would require a bit more. I would like to continue my current standard of living even when I'm retired for eg, able to eat whatever I want whenever I want and not have to worry about how much every meal will cost me. I also enjoy my whiskies and wines and BBQ's with good cuts of meat. I frequently take the whole extended family out for Thai BBQ's and know that I will still have change from 3,000 baht which is comfortably within my current affordability zone. I see no reason why I should stop my current lifestyle when I retire, and for that reason, I would prefer to have more funds than less. Once again, the amount is really arbitrary and varies from one to another.

With regards to renting properties, I am referring to properties in Asia such as Thailand, Hong Kong, Malaysia and not in Europe. Europe is not landlord friendly at all.

You are definitely in the minority if you have been able to get a ROI of 8% on average over the last 12 years. As you're not a fan of real estate, I assume that you have little or no investments in real estate. As the stock market is at the same level of 10 years ago, it is unlikely that your investments have been in equities as well. Bonds, ISA's, savings accounts, fixed deposit accounts don't pay anywhere near 8%. Thus, to get a return of 8% over the last 12 years, I would imagine that these have been some fairly risky investments which fortunately has paid off for you. Others are unlikely so be so lucky.

In the case of the OP, both him and his wife are still working so there is still plenty of opportunity to build up cash reserves and assets. I assume that they are both still able to grow their wealth and not worry about wealth preservation yet, unlike retired OAP's. So my suggestion to set higher targets still apply.

[GreenSnapper]

I would like to continue my current standard of living even when I'm retired for eg, able to eat whatever I want whenever I want and not have to worry about how much every meal will cost me. I also enjoy my whiskies and wines and BBQ's with good cuts of meat. I frequently take the whole extended family out for Thai BBQ's and know that I will still have change from 3,000 baht which is comfortably within my current affordability zone. I see no reason why I should stop my current lifestyle when I retire, and for that reason, I would prefer to have more funds than less. Once again, the amount is really arbitrary and varies from one to another.

This is all fine and with 150-200,000 Baht the OP can spend each month, he certainly don't need to save on Thai BBQs and such. As he is also rent-free.

As of my yearly 8% returns, that was only to a minor rate from the stock market and not from rent. It was also not from risky investments, as I'm rather conservative and cannot afford to lose my capital.

For the future I aim for 5-7% and this is achievable by many ways and you don't need to gamble.

[crazygreg44]

If I had 50 M Baht, I would just diverse them into partly real estate, partly classic savings.

30M = I would buy 20 nice condos and rent them out real cheap, cheap for ensuring they will be rented full time throughout the years. Cheap means to rent out for less than 10,000 BHT a month, leaving me with 8000 profit after management fees and taxes. This will sum up to 160,000 Baht per month.

rest 20M = take em to a "good" bank and put them into a savings account that can earn you 2.8% interest. Absolutely doable. So in effect, you cash in another 46,000 BAHT per month on interest. Means your monthly income is 206,000 BAHT and your assets do not loose value, except the inflation is eating up your 20M while they sit in the bank. However an annuity is also loosing with the yearly inflation. Mind you annuitites are not inflation-balanced !

Your 20M also serve as a good health insurance, should somethimng serious occure.

Other less serious medical expenses you can pay off the 206,000 monthly income.

Tenant change in the condos means some spending in furniture and renovation, yet this is cheap in Thailand.

You might like the task of managing your condos. Take fun in taking good care and enjoy the swimming pools.

For near 5000 Euros per month with no obstruction to my assets, I can show all these smart yuppies of the "insurance" and "asset" business my finger. Most of these 5%-8% yearly interest assets are high risk investments for which only one rule goes : Don't spend more money than what you are willing to loose!

When you get older, sell the condos one by one and use the money for a nice holiday trip or a cruise !

Edited July 3, 2012 by crazygreg44

[GreenSnapper]

If I had 50 M Baht, I would just diverse them into partly real estate, partly classic savings.

30M = I would buy 20 nice condos and rent them out real cheap, cheap for ensuring they will be rented full time throughout the

Two problems with that:

1. You invest considerable amounts in Thailand. What will you do, if fights break out again, farangs flee, your visa is not extended...? Then you lost big.

2. 1.5 Mio for a small nice condo - new BKK condos cost more, and Pattaya is heavily overbuild. It is true that cheaper places can be easier rented out, but first you have to get those cheap condos in good locations.

Your 20M also serve as a good health insurance, should somethimng serious occure.

This is not insurance, it is gambling with your capital. High risk, especially as two people are involved. Proper insurance is the only realistic solution.

Most of these 5%-8% yearly interest assets are high risk investments for which only one rule goes : Don't spend more money than what you are willing to loose!

Sorry, this is just plain rubbish.

Your condo scheme may work for you, but other schemes work for other people, presumed they did their homework, know the markets and are well diversified.

[notmyself]

Buy gold

[JurgenG]

I just made a rapid, rough calculation. We have flats in Hong Kong that we rent. The return after tax and everything is around 4.5%. And this is without taking into account the capital appreciation. The price of one our flat doubled over a 5 years period. The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that real estate will still be a major part of our investments. But not in Thailand. Beside the fact that the law is definitively not foreigner friendly, the return is very poor. Over a 12 years period, on our house in Bangkok, if you take into account the cost of the mortgage, if we decided to sell it now we would make about zero money

[mikekim1219]

I just made a rapid, rough calculation. We have flats in Hong Kong that we rent. The return after tax and everything is around 4.5%. And this is without taking into account the capital appreciation. The price of one our flat doubled over a 5 years period. The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that real estate will still be a major part of our investments. But not in Thailand. Beside the fact that the law is definitively not foreigner friendly, the return is very poor. Over a 12 years period, on our house in Bangkok, if you take into account the cost of the mortgage, if we decided to sell it now we would make about zero money

You can buy Hybrid Annuity. Basically this annuity took the best features of Immediate, Fixed and Variable annuities. In short, you can get life time monthly payment, never lose your principal (this can go up depending on the market and once up cannot come down). But the best feature is you can take out your principle anytime (subject to tax).

With 50Mbt, this plan would keep me sound asleep at night

[ExpatJ]

The typical Thai wage is irrelevant for you.

You are totally right, to have a proper living standard above "just existing", you need proper funds.

Your funds of 50 Million plus paid real estate is proper - unless you lose your money with risky investments.

At the current market situation, you can expect a return of 5% per year on your investments. This would allow a spending of 200.000 Baht per month. Enough for what you aim for and enough for future devaluation and inflation. So don't spend it all, maybe keep spendings below 150.000 Baht.

If you have no knowledge how to invest your money, you need to gain this knowledge at first. This is not an easy task, and you should not use "financial advisors" or advise from this forum.

You have to do your homework yourself. I'd say, you need at least 6 months of serious reading on financial matters to get some idea before you invest a single Baht.

For a start, there are lots of websites for retirement calculations. Then go to good bookshops and buy some more to fund your knowledge. Diversify your protfolio. Don't listen to people with easy solutions: no, gold will not always go up and real estate may fall badly. You have to learn about the markets and have to learn to recognize BS in the media and internet.

5% is realistically achievable if invested wisely. But keep most of your assets outsides of Thailand, or any other 3rd world country without proper legal protection.

So far I've been allergic to any investment in the stock market. All the money we have come from profit in real estate.

But I'm open minded and because we are talking about long term planning, 6 month of serious reading is ok for me. And on top of that I like reading .

Do you have any title in mind to start with ?

I agree with you about investing in Thailand, beside our houses all our other investments are either in Hong Kong or Europe. But how to protect ourselves against currency fluctuations ?

Its a possibility to get 12% per annum

If anyone is offering you 12% , 99% its a scam.

[KNJ]

I just made a rapid, rough calculation. We have flats in Hong Kong that we rent. The return after tax and everything is around 4.5%. And this is without taking into account the capital appreciation. The price of one our flat doubled over a 5 years period. The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that real estate will still be a major part of our investments. But not in Thailand. Beside the fact that the law is definitively not foreigner friendly, the return is very poor. Over a 12 years period, on our house in Bangkok, if you take into account the cost of the mortgage, if we decided to sell it now we would make about zero money

Research research research. Take your time but I would agree with what you are saying.

You asked I believe in an earlier thread about variations in exchange rates. It seems you are well on the way to partly overcoming that issue. You say properties in Europe ( UK or another county ? )

That means you have potential for at least 2 currency incomes HKD, Euro and or GBP. If you make some investments in USD ( property or otherwise but something which pays out in USD ) similarly with Japanese yen you have all the major currencies covered.

I am not suggesting Forex trading, but if you have an income in each of those currencies, then you are covering most of bases and if you can afford not to have to exchange then at the same time to live then you can just let the money accumulate ( reinvest ) and wait for the exchange rate to move in your favor.

This strategy only works if you can generate incomes in different countries/currencies and not need to exchange them all at the same time for living expenses.

Good luck you will be fine

[ExpatJ]

I would recommend putting a portion of your lump sum into annuities for peace of mind and security ( although the rates right now are horrible) 400,000 USD will bring you 2,200 USD minimum per month guaranteed. Also try and get a diverse spread of retirement income, when i retire (in 15-20 years time !) i am aiming for the following (using today's prices and very conservatively assuming that the global economy and investment returns remain as poor as they do to day!!)

Annuities- US$ 2000-3000 per month

Company pension after tax $4-6 k per month

Rental property income $2-7 K per month

Stock investment returns (conservatively) @$1k per month

Retirement funds = 9,000 to 17,000 US$ per month

[wana]

I would recommend putting a portion of your lump sum into annuities for peace of mind and security ( although the rates right now are horrible) 400,000 USD will bring you 2,200 USD minimum per month guaranteed. Also try and get a diverse spread of retirement income, when i retire (in 15-20 years time !) i am aiming for the following (using today's prices and very conservatively assuming that the global economy and investment returns remain as poor as they do to day!!)

Annuities- US$ 2000-3000 per month

Company pension after tax $4-6 k per month

Rental property income $2-7 K per month

Stock investment returns (conservatively) @$1k per month

Retirement funds = 9,000 to 17,000 US$ per month

34,000 dollars a month is a nice pension

[mikekim1219]

I would recommend putting a portion of your lump sum into annuities for peace of mind and security ( although the rates right now are horrible) 400,000 USD will bring you 2,200 USD minimum per month guaranteed. Also try and get a diverse spread of retirement income, when i retire (in 15-20 years time !) i am aiming for the following (using today's prices and very conservatively assuming that the global economy and investment returns remain as poor as they do to day!!)

Annuities- US$ 2000-3000 per month

Company pension after tax $4-6 k per month

Rental property income $2-7 K per month

Stock investment returns (conservatively) @$1k per month

Retirement funds = 9,000 to 17,000 US$ per month

With that money, why even bother to live in Thailand? Hawaii is nicer and they speak English.

[KNJ]

I would recommend putting a portion of your lump sum into annuities for peace of mind and security ( although the rates right now are horrible) 400,000 USD will bring you 2,200 USD minimum per month guaranteed. Also try and get a diverse spread of retirement income, when i retire (in 15-20 years time !) i am aiming for the following (using today's prices and very conservatively assuming that the global economy and investment returns remain as poor as they do to day!!)

Annuities- US$ 2000-3000 per month

Company pension after tax $4-6 k per month

Rental property income $2-7 K per month

Stock investment returns (conservatively) @$1k per month

Retirement funds = 9,000 to 17,000 US$ per month

34,000 dollars a month is a nice pension

7 million USD in assets will cover it, no problem

[wana]

I would recommend putting a portion of your lump sum into annuities for peace of mind and security ( although the rates right now are horrible) 400,000 USD will bring you 2,200 USD minimum per month guaranteed. Also try and get a diverse spread of retirement income, when i retire (in 15-20 years time !) i am aiming for the following (using today's prices and very conservatively assuming that the global economy and investment returns remain as poor as they do to day!!)

Annuities- US$ 2000-3000 per month

Company pension after tax $4-6 k per month

Rental property income $2-7 K per month

Stock investment returns (conservatively) @$1k per month

Retirement funds = 9,000 to 17,000 US$ per month

34,000 dollars a month is a nice pension

7 million USD in assets will cover it, no problem

thats nice living in most places ,in thailand ,well ,youre gonna have a ball 34,000.00 USD = 1,068,449.97 THB

[JurgenG]

I would recommend putting a portion of your lump sum into annuities for peace of mind and security ( although the rates right now are horrible) 400,000 USD will bring you 2,200 USD minimum per month guaranteed. Also try and get a diverse spread of retirement income, when i retire (in 15-20 years time !) i am aiming for the following (using today's prices and very conservatively assuming that the global economy and investment returns remain as poor as they do to day!!)

Annuities- US$ 2000-3000 per month

Company pension after tax $4-6 k per month

Rental property income $2-7 K per month

Stock investment returns (conservatively) @$1k per month

Retirement funds = 9,000 to 17,000 US$ per month

With that money, why even bother to live in Thailand? Hawaii is nicer and they speak English.

Agree with you.

And every other month I would offer my wife a first class ticket to Bangkok so she could visit her family and friends. She may agree with that.

So the new target for saving before retirement is $ 7M ?

[GreenSnapper]

I just made a rapid, rough calculation. We have flats in Hong Kong that we rent. The return after tax and everything is around 4.5%. And this is without taking into account the capital appreciation. The price of one our flat doubled over a 5 years period.

On what base is the 4.5% return calculated? On current market prices, or on what you paid originally?

If it is the latter and market prices of your flats have doubled, your return now is only approx. 2.25%

Hongkong has limited space, so prices will not fall too much. But read this:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-06-15/hong-kong-home-prices-to-fall-up-to-20-deutsche-bank-says.html

"Hong Kong Home Prices to Fall Up to 20%, Deutsche Bank Says"

So your 50M Baht may only be 40M if you have everything in HKG. You didn't preserve the value of your capital.

While you cannot trade real estate in a similar way as stocks, bonds, gold etc., you should still try to preserve the capital. 20% loss of value may be still tolerable if returns are still good, but in some cases you better sell.

That's why good knowledge of the markets is so important. And why you should read a lot before making decisions.

[ExpatJ]

I would recommend putting a portion of your lump sum into annuities for peace of mind and security ( although the rates right now are horrible) 400,000 USD will bring you 2,200 USD minimum per month guaranteed. Also try and get a diverse spread of retirement income, when i retire (in 15-20 years time !) i am aiming for the following (using today's prices and very conservatively assuming that the global economy and investment returns remain as poor as they do to day!!)

Annuities- US$ 2000-3000 per month

Company pension after tax $4-6 k per month

Rental property income $2-7 K per month

Stock investment returns (conservatively) @$1k per month

Retirement funds = 9,000 to 17,000 US$ per month

34,000 dollars a month is a nice pension

7 million USD in assets will cover it, no problem

thats nice living in most places ,in thailand ,well ,youre gonna have a ball 34,000.00 USD = 1,068,449.97 THB

Where did the 34K come from?

And i am nowhere close to 7 m in assets, extremely very very very very far away in fact.

[KNJ]

That is your predicted max income from your assets ( pension, rental, cash, stock, annuities )

assuming 5% p.a you need 7 million to generate that ( annuities less, property probably less than 5% ) Stocks up and down so better some years than others, cash even 9000 a month would need 2.1 million usd @ 5% ( nice if you can get 5% now or in future)

[Rhiwfawr]

Think you should go back to the drugs your inhaling!

If you have over 1 million pounds at your disposal,you do not need the views of English Teachers in your little crisis and most certainly you would not move to Issan!LOL

[wana]

Where did the 34K come from?

Annuities- US$ 2000-3000 per month

Company pension after tax $4-6 k per month

Rental property income $2-7 K per month

Stock investment returns (conservatively) @$1k per month

Retirement funds = 9,000 to 17,000 US$ per month

3000

6000

7000

1000

17000

34000 came from the top end of your own predictions

[JurgenG]

Think you should go back to the drugs your inhaling!

If you have over 1 million pounds at your disposal,you do not need the views of English Teachers in your little crisis and most certainly you would not move to Issan!LOL

Fortunately, despite the best efforts of a minority de posters, you can still get good advises in this forum. But I agree it's difficult and I completely understand your cynicism.

But, unfortunately this time, some part of Isaan could be quite expensive. Like where we plan to retire, near the Khao Yai national park, where land can easily reach 1M / rai and more. And it's totally justified : very nice weather, we don't need air cond most of the year, great neighborhood, a lot of nice, cultivated people retire there, both Thai and foreigners. And only two to three hours from Bangkok depending which side of the park you live ...

You still a newbie, you have a lot of things to discover in Thailand

[crazygreg44]

I accept the advice from GreenSnapper so far . .of course here , diversification is a MUST HAVE , and real estate will bring up costs for managing and keeping which some people never dare to add inot their calculations.

To people here who like the idea of annuities : when you do a classic/traditional investment, i.e. park 20M in the bank, why not be your own annuitor? Some people here say, hey they guarantee your rent for a lifetime . . that's true but when you have children or a partner, you need to make sure that in case of an unexpected "premature" death it will not end up as a complete loss !

What I am trying to say if you invest into real estate, rent it out, from a certain age on try to sell the real estate one by one and such be your "own annuitor". It's a cliche that most investors neglect the inflation rate when investing in annuities, bonds, or fonds-based investments. The inflation rate can bring down your nice agent - promised interest rate by 2-4% a year. A 5% promise then turns out to earn you actually just half of this or even less.

That's one reason - cheers to GreenSnapper - why in my diversifications, real estate plays a big role. If I had the time to search & hunt, I might even mix Bangkok condos with Jomtien condos. I agree to GrSn in BKK prices are through the ceiling and it needs careful considerations. However, the same applies when you start looking for the right investment sheme.

Locations and again, locations, are the magic wand . I was surprised little to read that the original OP Jurgen G. noticeabyl made this 50M fortune by winning on a real-estate deal in HK. Lucky you are and you prooved some forum members wrong. You earned a measely 400% with a real-estate investment.

It s worth discussing on a civilized level. Ah and yeah . . anyone talking about 8% revenues and more in my eyes is a scammer or just plain gambler. Lets call al those who call conservative investment big BS, just gamblers. Well, gambling can win you 150, 200, 500 % , but it can also ruin all your assets. I rest assured the OP knows.

Edited July 5, 2012 by crazygreg44

[ExpatJ]

Where did the 34K come from?

Annuities- US$ 2000-3000 per month

Company pension after tax $4-6 k per month

Rental property income $2-7 K per month

Stock investment returns (conservatively) @$1k per month

Retirement funds = 9,000 to 17,000 US$ per month

3000

6000

7000

1000

17000

34000 came from the top end of your own predictions

Ah, my mistake for not being clear- the final line in my list- 'retirement funds' is the TOTAL of all the various fund sources..so the final total pension will be 9k to 17 k...

[ExpatJ]

I accept the advice from GreenSnapper so far . .of course here , diversification is a MUST HAVE , and real estate will bring up costs for managing and keeping which some people never dare to add inot their calculations.

To people here who like the idea of annuities : when you do a classic/traditional investment, i.e. park 20M in the bank, why not be your own annuitor? Some people here say, hey they guarantee your rent for a lifetime . . that's true but when you have children or a partner, you need to make sure that in case of an unexpected "premature" death it will not end up as a complete loss !

What I am trying to say if you invest into real estate, rent it out, from a certain age on try to sell the real estate one by one and such be your "own annuitor". It's a cliche that most investors neglect the inflation rate when investing in annuities, bonds, or fonds-based investments. The inflation rate can bring down your nice agent - promised interest rate by 2-4% a year. A 5% promise then turns out to earn you actually just half of this or even less.

That's one reason - cheers to GreenSnapper - why in my diversifications, real estate plays a big role. If I had the time to search & hunt, I might even mix Bangkok condos with Jomtien condos. I agree to GrSn in BKK prices are through the ceiling and it needs careful considerations. However, the same applies when you start looking for the right investment sheme.

Locations and again, locations, are the magic wand . I was surprised little to read that the original OP Jurgen G. noticeabyl made this 50M fortune by winning on a real-estate deal in HK. Lucky you are and you prooved some forum members wrong. You earned a measely 400% with a real-estate investment.

It s worth discussing on a civilized level. Ah and yeah . . anyone talking about 8% revenues and more in my eyes is a scammer or just plain gambler. Lets call al those who call conservative investment big BS, just gamblers. Well, gambling can win you 150, 200, 500 % , but it can also ruin all your assets. I rest assured the OP knows.

I agree on the rental income from real estate- a good source of retirement fund. My advice is to aim for fewer, more expensive units- even if the total return is higher by buying lots of smaller units- as you get older you will have less energy/capacity to manage many small properties (ensuring rent collections, maintenance, finding tenants etc). Also, more expensive units often have management offices in the building who can take care of maintenance (installing new air con, buying new kitchen equipment etc) for you which means there is very little work to be done. Also tenants in more expensive condos tend to be more responsible and easier to manager than in cheap condos. Whenever possible try and get Korean or Japanese tenants in your units as they are far more reliable than locals or farangs. Finally bought and paid for condos are great assets to leave to your kids when you die (though try to make some sort of agreement where most of the rental income is paid into a trust until your kids are 25 yrs +, otherwise they may not be bothered to study at university if they think they can just live off rental incomes!.