30 Year Lease On New House?

[sms747]

In the process of buying a small new house ( in wifes name of course) in smaut prakhan. I will be wanting a 30 year lease but not sure how it is done or how much this will cost. The developer does not seem to know about i,t so I don't know if it is done on the final payment or can be done any time after. Would be grateful for any advice on this. At my age all I am interested in is a 30 year lease, not something that can be renewed as I won't be here by that time.

[TommoPhysicist]

Remember, in Thailand you can't make any legally binding contract with a spouse.

Any such contract may be canceled unilaterally by either party on divorce.

[Khun Jean]

Indeed, so why even bother. See it as it is, a gift to the wife.

However...

Go for the usufruct instead of the lease. It is more strong, valid for a longer time (if you last more than 30 years )and costs only 150 baht or so and no taxes have to be paid.

3 possibilities:

1) You can separate the house and land, but it will not be an easy process.

The house can be shared property the land not. It is a case of what part is worth the most.

For a 100.000 baht piece of land with a 5.000.000 baht house it is worth going through the trouble.

2) Get a usufruct from the developer and after sufficient time (few months) transfer the land to your wife.

3) Get a usufruct from your wife and include someone you trust and will be on your side forever, like a son/daughter or brother/sister. Dissolving a usufruct then would affect a third part and as such it can not be dissolved

In all cases get a usufruct, even if it can be dissolved by your wife at any time. It is a protection for you in the unfortunate case your wife dies before you.

Edited July 9, 2012 by Khun Jean

[sms747]

Many thanks jean I know nothing about usufruct so will tell the mrs. However after visiting the place and seeing how remote and badly built the house are I am not sure if I could actually live there, she loves it though!

[hemanrcr]

You need to make the 30 year lease on the land, just having the house alone is not sufficient--if your wife died or she sold the land it would pass into other hands. You can have the house registered in your name and make a 30 year lease on the land and you will have access to the house for the entire 30 years. You can make a will on the house to give to your wife if you pre-decease her. Or you can make a 30 year leas on the land and house together.

[EarthAlien]

30 Year Lease,.... not worth the paper its written on.

In the event that you and the missus part company and she either wanted to stay in the house or sell it then you wouldn't stand a chance.

I've heard of 30 year leases and userfruct agreements being torn up right in front of the beneficiary (farang ex hubby/bf) in the lands titles office.

Thais rule,... plain and simple. Buy a condo, rent or just gift the house to the wife and be done with it

[falang07]

Many thanks jean I know nothing about usufruct so will tell the mrs. However after visiting the place and seeing how remote and badly built the house are I am not sure if I could actually live there, she loves it though!

Chances are it was built that way on purpose so that you do not like to live in there in the end

[SouthernMan3]

But, what to do if all is well and you do buy the house, land, farm, whatever in the wife's name and she dies.

How to protect against that ?

[uha]

Well, I seem to be one of the very few persons who made a 30 year lease on a piece of land belonging to my wife. It's well worth the papers. The land office affiliated to the amphoe does the whole process and it is quite long. They fill out the contract, all parties have to sign and then it goes first to the Kamnan who has to sign and then for exactly 30 days to the Amphoe where it is made public.

After the 30 days delay, you have to sign again and it becomes official for the next 30 years - f you not die before, you are the quasi owner of the land and can do what you want. The Amphoe has confirmed me that, once valid, nobody can change the contract.

Besides, my wife too was thinking that a contract made with a farang had not to be honoured but she was told the facts at the amphoe.

The fees are very cheap, just one percent of the yearly leasing which I fixed to 1000 Baht.

[TommoPhysicist]

Well, I seem to be one of the very few persons who made a 30 year lease on a piece of land belonging to my wife. It's well worth the papers. The land office affiliated to the amphoe does the whole process and it is quite long. They fill out the contract, all parties have to sign and then it goes first to the Kamnan who has to sign and then for exactly 30 days to the Amphoe where it is made public.

After the 30 days delay, you have to sign again and it becomes official for the next 30 years - f you not die before, you are the quasi owner of the land and can do what you want. The Amphoe has confirmed me that, once valid, nobody can change the contract.

Besides, my wife too was thinking that a contract made with a farang had not to be honoured but she was told the facts at the amphoe.

The fees are very cheap, just one percent of the yearly leasing which I fixed to 1000 Baht.

When you get divorced and your wife unilaterally cancels your lease, you can post again and tell us all how smart you were. Doesn't matter if you are a Thai or a foreigner, any contract made with a spouse can be canceled by either party on divorce.

Edited July 15, 2012 by TommoPhysicist

[crazykopite]

Why not just rent a house for 3 years at a time it does not have to registered with the land office and if things do not work oput you move on what I have noticed in Thailand is you build a nice home and 6 months later a lady bar appears overnight next door and there is very little you can do about it

[uha]

she cannot cancel it unilaterally. She has to go to court if she want's to change something. This is not a simple contract made between 2 persons privately, but it is registered at the land office and amphoe.

Maybe even a very experienced Super Member does not know everything??

[TommoPhysicist]

she cannot cancel it unilaterally. She has to go to court if she want's to change something. This is not a simple contract made between 2 persons privately, but it is registered at the land office and amphoe.

Maybe even a very experienced Super Member does not know everything??

Not even worth answering.

Ask a lawyer, is any contract made between me and my wife valid after divorce.

I'm amazed at the number of foreigners spending $$$$$$$ without first seeking proper legal advice.

Edited July 15, 2012 by TommoPhysicist

[ripstanley]

I found this on the internet. Interesting reading.

"We have an example of a client who took over the lease of empty land from his friend and registered the 30 year lease of with the Land Office. We advised him to build a house under his name, so he had to apply for the construction permit under his name. After the construction, he will apply for the House Registration Certificate (“Tabien Ban”) under his name, and many people laughed and objected at to this idea by saying that there is no law allowing foreigners to do such a thing. I just followed the principle, – “Foreigners can do everything, except where there is a clear restriction imposed by the Thai laws.” Nobody could find any restriction, but now this foreigner has the House Registration Certificate (“Tabien Ban”), under his name, and we have never paid even one Baht to anybody to obtain this proper legal document; – may Justice prevail for our community"

http://thaisolicitor.com/?p=32

[TommoPhysicist]

I found this on the internet. Interesting reading.

Contracts between husband and wife are different to contracts between friends.

[Tanaka]

I found this on the internet. Interesting reading.

"We have an example of a client who took over the lease of empty land from his friend and registered the 30 year lease of with the Land Office. We advised him to build a house under his name, so he had to apply for the construction permit under his name. After the construction, he will apply for the House Registration Certificate (“Tabien Ban”) under his name, and many people laughed and objected at to this idea by saying that there is no law allowing foreigners to do such a thing. I just followed the principle, – “Foreigners can do everything, except where there is a clear restriction imposed by the Thai laws.” Nobody could find any restriction, but now this foreigner has the House Registration Certificate (“Tabien Ban”), under his name, and we have never paid even one Baht to anybody to obtain this proper legal document; – may Justice prevail for our community"

http://thaisolicitor.com/?p=32

TommoP is correct about what he said about contracts between spouses made during marriage. They can be canceled by either spouse. The above scenario is different even if the lessor on the land is a wife. If you build a house on her land and you put your name on the building permit and all house papers, the house will be yours, not your wife's even if she cancels the lease on the land. That may create other problems but the house will still be yours and you can sell it to her, if you wish. In the event of a divorce f.e. Your best bet in this situation would be to take a usufruct for your life on the land. it is disputable if a usufruct can be canceled, it is not the same as a lease. Usufruct contracts are for land only, not buildings although it grants you the right to any building you erect on the land. But if you want a similar contract for a house, it is a superficies you should look at.

[besth]

But, what to do if all is well and you do buy the house, land, farm, whatever in the wife's name and she dies.

How to protect against that ?

If your wife makes a will in your favor, you can legally inherit the land. Then you will by law have to sell it within (I think) 6 months - I've also read 1 year - which doesn't put you in a very strong position as a seller needing to sell, but you would not immediately lose everything. That would also give you time to explore lease/usufruct options with third parties.

[khunPer]

If you are buying a house, you can buy the house in your name - but not the land. Usufruct seems to most be recommended in such a case. You can read more about it, in the book: How to Buy Land and Build a House in Thailand, by Philip Bryce (Paiboon, ISBN 1-887521-71-2).

My lawyer suggested me, that if it is a question of financially protecting an investment, one may be able to have a loan declared on the back of the land deed at the Land Department, depending of the class of the deed. Some deeds in lower class cannot be used for loans. It works like a mortgage, where you fx declare a loan of the value of the house. The land cannot be sold or transferred, before the loan has been paid in full. You can do it yourself - legal documents have to be written in Thai, you may be able to use the standard loan agreement, available from many bookstores or paper shops - but it is advisable to use a lawyer.

[asean]

interesting thing about usefructs. Why would thai law honour a usefruct when the maximum lease allowable to a foreigner or anyone is 30 years? Aren't they contradicting each other? The whole idea is to stop a foreigners rights to the land for more than 30 years so why honour a usefruct?

[SouthernMan3]

But, what to do if all is well and you do buy the house, land, farm, whatever in the wife's name and she dies.

How to protect against that ?

If your wife makes a will in your favor, you can legally inherit the land. Then you will by law have to sell it within (I think) 6 months - I've also read 1 year - which doesn't put you in a very strong position as a seller needing to sell, but you would not immediately lose everything. That would also give you time to explore lease/usufruct options with third parties.

But, there are other circumstances.

Please let me explain.

Btw, thank you for your help and advice !

If such a terrible thing should happen, everything will go to her two daughters which have had me as Dad for 10 years already.

I am the only dad.

The other one exists but is long gone yet still alive but with NO contact for more then 10 years(as in many cases here in Thailand).

All that I want is the right to live in our house and receive control and profit's from all of our other holdings (land and farms) until I die.

Also, the right for any to be sold (if necessary) with daughters' permission.

And, we have talked about this and a will is on the list to say these exact things.

I just know Thailand as I have been here for decades.

So I want to be as 100 % protected as possible.

It's just that as we become more solvent the need for such protection is becoming quickly more apparent.

Again, thanks for your time and knowledge

[falang07]

I am sure she can cancel a will anytime, too, so not a big protection either.

[TommoPhysicist]

If such a terrible thing should happen, everything will go to her two daughters which have had me as Dad for 10 years already.

I am the only dad.

The other one exists but is long gone yet still alive but with NO contact for more then 10 years(as in many cases here in Thailand).

Without a will it is split between family members, if married in Amphur office, that will be you and ALL children.

If one of them has disappeared, a portion will still be kept for her.

[SouthernMan3]

If such a terrible thing should happen, everything will go to her two daughters which have had me as Dad for 10 years already.

I am the only dad.

The other one exists but is long gone yet still alive but with NO contact for more then 10 years(as in many cases here in Thailand).

Without a will it is split between family members, if married in Amphur office, that will be you and ALL children.

If one of them has disappeared, a portion will still be kept for her.

Gotcha.

So, since the dad and her are divorced (obviously) he has NO claim, correct ?

And, I do not want anything that I MUST then sell in any period of time.

I want it ALL to go to the girls when I die.

I just want (as I said) rights to occupy, to have proceeds from and a say if we all three decide to sell any one holding.

For the term of my life.

And yes, we were married in the local Amphur office.

P.S. I also have 2 grown kids back in the States who will receive all of my assets there.

There is for them and here is for the girls.

Thank you once again for you time and knowledge sharing

[rotary]

Buy a condo, easy

[besth]

interesting thing about usefructs. Why would thai law honour a usefruct when the maximum lease allowable to a foreigner or anyone is 30 years? Aren't they contradicting each other? The whole idea is to stop a foreigners rights to the land for more than 30 years so why honour a usefruct?

It is in the nature of both legal figures. The usufruct is set up for the life of the person (it can also be limited to a number of years by agreement between the parties). The lease is set up for the duration agreed, maximum of 30 years.

In a way, it is kind of a "bet" of what will last longer.

For the OP, it is possible for your wife to set up the will so that the ownership of the properties go to the girls, but with a right of usufruct for life being set up for you through that same will.

[besth]

I just want (as I said) rights to occupy, to have proceeds from and a say if we all three decide to sell any one holding.

For the term of my life.

To have the proceeds from the properties is not a problem. I assume you are referring to the agricultural land you mentioned, but it would be the same for rentals of residential properties (or any other kind of income from them) . The usufruct gives you that right. "Fruct" = "fruit", as you probably know, in a wide sense of the term.

To have a say on a decision to sell a property is not within the standard rights of the usufruct, but if the girls sold something to a third party, your rights of usufruct would remain.

To be able to have a say on a decision to sell, the mother's will could make a provision for some sort of need for you to agree to a sale on whatever terms you all privately agreed.

[besth]

I am sure she can cancel a will anytime, too, so not a big protection either.

Duh! Like anyone in any country

At the end of the day, how well legal protections work always depends on the personal circumstances of all involved, but at least it is good to try to put them in place.

[SouthernMan3]

I just want (as I said) rights to occupy, to have proceeds from and a say if we all three decide to sell any one holding.

For the term of my life.

To have the proceeds from the properties is not a problem. I assume you are referring to the agricultural land you mentioned, but it would be the same for rentals of residential properties (or any other kind of income from them) . The usufruct gives you that right. "Fruct" = "fruit", as you probably know, in a wide sense of the term.

To have a say on a decision to sell a property is not within the standard rights of the usufruct, but if the girls sold something to a third party, your rights of usufruct would remain.

To be able to have a say on a decision to sell, the mother's will could make a provision for some sort of need for you to agree to a sale on whatever terms you all privately agreed.

Again, thank you !

Your insights have been extremely helpful.

A usufruct is something that I know nothing about.

I need to learn.

You don't happen to know of a good and trustworthy lawyer that could help us construct all of this paperwork anywhere near Chumphon ?

Maybe it would be good if we are to continue this conversation to change to private messaging.

So please feel free to do so.

Again, thank you so very much for all of your time and insights

[SouthernMan3]

I just want (as I said) rights to occupy, to have proceeds from and a say if we all three decide to sell any one holding.

For the term of my life.

To have the proceeds from the properties is not a problem. I assume you are referring to the agricultural land you mentioned, but it would be the same for rentals of residential properties (or any other kind of income from them) . The usufruct gives you that right. "Fruct" = "fruit", as you probably know, in a wide sense of the term.

To have a say on a decision to sell a property is not within the standard rights of the usufruct, but if the girls sold something to a third party, your rights of usufruct would remain.

To be able to have a say on a decision to sell, the mother's will could make a provision for some sort of need for you to agree to a sale on whatever terms you all privately agreed.

Again, thank you !

Your insights have been extremely helpful.

A usufruct is something that I know nothing about.

I need to learn.

You don't happen to know of a good and trustworthy lawyer that could help us construct all of this paperwork anywhere near Chumphon ?

Maybe it would be good if we are to continue this conversation to change to private messaging.

So please feel free to do so.

Again, thank you so very much for all of your time and insights

Just found this.

http://www.isaanlawyers.com/Usufruct%20agreements%20in%20Thailand.pdf

[Khun Jean]

Unfortunately that usufruct explanation in the above pdf is not completely correct.

Very disturbing for a piece that a lawyer has written.