Constitution Court Acted Outside Its Powers, Says Nitirat

[Moruya]

What a load of utter crap.

The Pheu Thai party have had ample time to "get on with screwing up running the country". Neither the opposition, the Army, the Pad or any other group has disrupted their opportunity to actually govern. The only time a spanner has been thrown in their works is over this garbage that they have tried to rail road through so the convicted fugitive crim in Dubai can return home and completely screw over the country.

I suppose the Pheu Thai's opposition could do it the Thaksin/UDD/ Red thugs way and attack the country and murder members of its Army.

Ah the golden age of debate, Wot no smileys?

The golden age of debate expired when the mute doll jumped into the driving seat

And the mute doll is who exactly ??

I'll give you a clue. She who does not speak.

[cdnvic]

Walking on the edge guys.

[Moruya]

Do you know what Nitirat is and what their causes are? Do you agree with yunlas misguided comments regarding the CDA and supposed elected assemblies taking the place of referendums? Or the supposed fact that the CC have demanded progress through a referendum when they have in fact proposed the opposite by allowing constitution amendments to be agreed in parliament without a referendum which has always been the case anyway? I won't even bother with the rest of the rant.

And you believe that yunlas post is a common sense summary? I suggest you do a lot more background reading and not just from this forum............

Nitirat is a bunch of misguided and insignificant loons

[Reasonableman]

Do you know what Nitirat is and what their causes are? Do you agree with yunlas misguided comments regarding the CDA and supposed elected assemblies taking the place of referendums? Or the supposed fact that the CC have demanded progress through a referendum when they have in fact proposed the opposite by allowing constitution amendments to be agreed in parliament without a referendum which has always been the case anyway? I won't even bother with the rest of the rant.

And you believe that yunlas post is a common sense summary? I suggest you do a lot more background reading and not just from this forum............

The keening whine of the usual grinding axe.

[metisdead]

Nonsense posts and inflammatory post and replies have been removed.

[Yunla]

Wow, I haven't read anything this good since I was debating in the pubs, curry houses and common rooms around Leeds University ( and Poly, at that time ) in the mid seventies.

How nostalgic, not even the vocabulary has changed...................

Sadly Yunla, it's a different country.

I grew up in Leeds from the 1970s upto today, I must say I avoided the pubs and those 'student areas' that you remember so fondly there. Its always different when you are a local from childhood onwards in a certain place, you don't see things the same way.

It is a different country, yes. But they both have a parliamentary democracy, and I was comparing the fledgling Thai version with the advanced UK version. I was making the comparisons in terms of other democracies would not get to change the most fundamental aspects of government without public referendum.

I am actually surprised that the CC verdict would provoke any kind of reaction at all, when it is saying what democracies in other countries, including the UK, would have said. I think the big difference in Thailand is that here the law is seen by many people as optional and not compulsory, as it would be seen in other countries.

Edited July 19, 2012 by Yunla

[tlansford]

Do you know what Nitirat is and what their causes are? Do you agree with yunlas misguided comments regarding the CDA and supposed elected assemblies taking the place of referendums? Or the supposed fact that the CC have demanded progress through a referendum when they have in fact proposed the opposite by allowing constitution amendments to be agreed in parliament without a referendum which has always been the case anyway? I won't even bother with the rest of the rant.

And you believe that yunlas post is a common sense summary? I suggest you do a lot more background reading and not just from this forum............

Not aimed at me, but let me just try to understand this rant.

As a poster was asking in another thread 'who are ACN and how come they seem to appear when the Dems needed them', here we have 'who are the Nitirat and how come they appeared when PT/Thaksin needed them'.

The formation of the CDA seems tilted towards the government and it's main party Pheu Thai. I'm not going to dig up details again, sorry. Did that one or two days ago and seems senseless anyway.

The CC demanded a referendum on a total rewrite of the current charter AND left open how smaller amendments could be interpreted ('if deemed a necessary adjustment' or something like that).

Further reading is not really required, as only items furthering a certain cause seem acceptable.

Reconciliation, farang style .

Not aimed at me but let me try to understand this rant...

The other poster talking about the ACN wasn't jurgeng, no? The relevance escapes me since the origin and the constitution of the Nitirat groups is not a mystery and not hidden or concealed in any way. Pay-for-theories groups line up more along the lines of the TDRI. In any case, it is perfectly clear that the group does understand democracy and what is required to support it.

As for their appearance just when the PTP needed them, that would still be an accident of chance if the Nitirat position mirrored that of the PTP but their positions are not the same. Nitirat is proposing far more radical changes than the government.

If the constitution of a possible CDA would appear to be tilted in the government's favor, that could be due to the fact that the proposed CDA would be elected, much as the current government, and therefore would it be a surprise to anyone that they would both represent the Thai population?

I would argue that the CDA might even be more able to integrate the diverse ideas of the the different segments of Thai society as it would be a single entity that would have to reach an accord on diverse issues and as an elected, representative body, would be a useful tool to merge the ideas from all sides. The result of a CDA might have been more balanced than the results from parliament.

But IMO, the CDA is an unlikely possibility since the CC decision.

The CC demanded a referendum before the rewrite of the charter which is a ludicrous position indeed. What is there to hold a referendum on? Nothing would have been changed and anything proposed would be meaningless as there would be absolutely no connection between the proposals before the creation and resulting work of a CDA and the actual draft of the CDA sent to Parliament. This is obvious and a good reason to question what the justices were thinking. IMO, it was just a roadblock to charter re-writing and simultaneously a justification for the CC's intervention.

Finally, the observation from the other poster that both governments and the mafia have assemblies was quite comical, ... and irrelevant.

[phiphidon]

Do you know what Nitirat is and what their causes are? Do you agree with yunlas misguided comments regarding the CDA and supposed elected assemblies taking the place of referendums? Or the supposed fact that the CC have demanded progress through a referendum when they have in fact proposed the opposite by allowing constitution amendments to be agreed in parliament without a referendum which has always been the case anyway? I won't even bother with the rest of the rant.

And you believe that yunlas post is a common sense summary? I suggest you do a lot more background reading and not just from this forum............

Not aimed at me, but let me just try to understand this rant.

As a poster was asking in another thread 'who are ACN and how come they seem to appear when the Dems needed them', here we have 'who are the Nitirat and how come they appeared when PT/Thaksin needed them'.

The formation of the CDA seems tilted towards the government and it's main party Pheu Thai. I'm not going to dig up details again, sorry. Did that one or two days ago and seems senseless anyway.

The CC demanded a referendum on a total rewrite of the current charter AND left open how smaller amendments could be interpreted ('if deemed a necessary adjustment' or something like that).

Further reading is not really required, as only items furthering a certain cause seem acceptable.

Reconciliation, farang style .

You're right it wasn't aimed at you - it was a reply to a poster who stated quite clearly that yunla's post was a common sense summary (nothing at all to do with another question on another post, so if that's your problem with my reply you're on the wrong track) . By extention he agreed with the points that she made. I pointed out the obvious misunderstandings that yunla has about the whole constitution amendment process and it now appears you have the same misunderstandings. For example this:

The CC demanded a referendum on a total rewrite of the current charter AND left open how smaller amendments could be interpreted ('if deemed a necessary adjustment' or something like that).

They demanded a referendum even though one was to be given as part of the process. The CC also suggested that the constitution could be amended section by section, not just smaller amendments, and that process already exists as well.

The only thing the CC managed was to get themselves involved in the political process (which for a supposedly independant court should be a no go area) and open the parliamentary process up to anybody who wishes to disrupt it by invoking Article 68 - now that that the checks and balances of the AG assessing whether the petition to invoke Article 68 is frivilous (as proved in this case) or not.

Now there is the situation where anybody who even suspects that the government (whichever party) might be threatening the power of the Head of State etc. can invoke Section 68 and the CC are bound to get involved and disrupt the political progress. Now if you look at the behaviour of the PAD who are still insisting on an investigation of the 416 MP's and Senators who voted for the amending of Section 291 so that a CDA can be formed, you can see what fun a malicious bunch like that could have with the parliamentary process in the future.

So this will not further the reconcilliation process in any way, farang or not.

So you now know what you can do with your green faced smiley - perhaps you might want to look into the ramifications a bit more?

[animatic]

On the one side we have the yellows and the 'amart' who are struggling to keep Thailand way back in the feudal past and THIS is causing a reaction on the 'other' side where Thai people feel they have no choice (because there is NO choice) to follow Thaksin and his cronies to fight this reactionary stance. If there was an alternative I'm very sure the vast majority would take it and this is why I, and others, say this is not 'all about Thaksin' it is about CHANGE and, unfortunately, and I have to admit this, there are those who are exploiting that feeling on both sides.

I think you will find that the PTP and red shirts are very interested in keeping the north and north east in the feudal past, because that makes the people easier to control.

T

hat is the basis of their control mechanism over the whole area.

They are using the old world feudal structure to move their amart

into replacing the old one, the trappings of democracy and socilaist uprising

are just that trappings.

The main worry is that should Thaksin die at the wrong time,

enough of his machine might blindly continue the quest, falter,

and spin out into a neo-communist run gullag of massive proportions,

killing 10s of thousands in it's ineptitude of ideology driven stupidities.

A scary prospect.

[Yunla]

That is the basis of their control mechanism over the whole area.

They are using the old world feudal structure to move their amart

into replacing the old one, the trappings of democracy and socilaist uprising

are just that trappings.

The main worry is that should Thaksin die at the wrong time,

enough of his machine might blindly continue the quest, falter,

and spin out into a neo-communist run gullag of massive proportions,

killing 10s of thousands in it's ineptitude of ideology driven stupidities.

A scary prospect.

Some of the most modern and successful democracies in the world achieved it without removing the 'amart', they achieved massive industrial and technological success and affluent middle class while remaining as a constitutional-monarchy with landed-gentry, nobility, judiciary and intelligentsia all left intact and institutionalised further as permanent social features.

The notion by reds that removing the 'amart' will redistribute wealth is a fallacy as can be seen under NK, USSR, Maoism etc. where the 'amart' were uprooted with maximum effect and yet after the revolution we see mass-starvation and oppression against the peasant-farmers, and ruled over by super-opulent 'people power' dictatorships just like the Shinawatras are.

The opposite can be seen in Sweden and England, both retain their landed gentry and constitutional monarchy, and while they are affected by changing global trends, they are still affluent modern technological parliamentary-democracies.

Maybe the reds should try to emulate those successful nations who achieved success without resorting to killing the 'amart', and more importantly without spending decades de-railing infrastructural progress with pathological obsessions against 'amarts', which waste so much time and energy, time that could be better spent on democratic policymaking.

Edited July 19, 2012 by Yunla

[tlansford]

On the one side we have the yellows and the 'amart' who are struggling to keep Thailand way back in the feudal past and THIS is causing a reaction on the 'other' side where Thai people feel they have no choice (because there is NO choice) to follow Thaksin and his cronies to fight this reactionary stance. If there was an alternative I'm very sure the vast majority would take it and this is why I, and others, say this is not 'all about Thaksin' it is about CHANGE and, unfortunately, and I have to admit this, there are those who are exploiting that feeling on both sides.

I think you will find that the PTP and red shirts are very interested in keeping the north and north east in the feudal past, because that makes the people easier to control.

T

hat is the basis of their control mechanism over the whole area.

They are using the old world feudal structure to move their amart

into replacing the old one, the trappings of democracy and socilaist uprising

are just that trappings.

The main worry is that should Thaksin die at the wrong time,

enough of his machine might blindly continue the quest, falter,

and spin out into a neo-communist run gullag of massive proportions,

killing 10s of thousands in it's ineptitude of ideology driven stupidities.

A scary prospect.

do you have a stitch of evidence, even just a grain of information, anything at all ... I mean aaaaannnnnnyyyyything - at all - to support the bile you just puked out onto the forum?

[rubl]

You're right it wasn't aimed at you - it was a reply to a poster who stated quite clearly that yunla's post was a common sense summary (nothing at all to do with another question on another post, so if that's your problem with my reply you're on the wrong track) . By extention he agreed with the points that she made. I pointed out the obvious misunderstandings that yunla has about the whole constitution amendment process and it now appears you have the same misunderstandings. For example this:

The CC demanded a referendum on a total rewrite of the current charter AND left open how smaller amendments could be interpreted ('if deemed a necessary adjustment' or something like that).

They demanded a referendum even though one was to be given as part of the process. The CC also suggested that the constitution could be amended section by section, not just smaller amendments, and that process already exists as well.

The only thing the CC managed was to get themselves involved in the political process (which for a supposedly independant court should be a no go area) and open the parliamentary process up to anybody who wishes to disrupt it by invoking Article 68 - now that that the checks and balances of the AG assessing whether the petition to invoke Article 68 is frivilous (as proved in this case) or not.

Now there is the situation where anybody who even suspects that the government (whichever party) might be threatening the power of the Head of State etc. can invoke Section 68 and the CC are bound to get involved and disrupt the political progress. Now if you look at the behaviour of the PAD who are still insisting on an investigation of the 416 MP's and Senators who voted for the amending of Section 291 so that a CDA can be formed, you can see what fun a malicious bunch like that could have with the parliamentary process in the future.

So this will not further the reconcilliation process in any way, farang or not.

So you now know what you can do with your green faced smiley - perhaps you might want to look into the ramifications a bit more?

"The court noted that the amendments to Article 291 clearly stated that the abolition of the current charter and the changing of the current ruling system could not be done.

The court noted that the 2007 Constitution had come from the people through a public referendum so its abolition would need to be done with another referendum.

But the court said amendments could be made constitutionally to improve articles that are problematic."

No further comment, I'm not even trying to change people's opinions, just put things in (what I think is) the correct perspective.

[Publicus]

I'd never heard of an instance in which a court ordered the duly elected national legislature to halt its procedings for any reason, so TIT democracy for sure.

PTP anyway can fully implement its policies without having Thaksin on hand to issue the orders, directives, allocate the money himself. PTP is wasting its time and the time of everyone else in spending so much time and national energy to try to get Thaksin back into the country. I've remarked before that Thaksin is too much of an egomaniac to be allowed to return to take change of things either up front or from behind the scenes. Historically, every time a leader in Thailand runs out of his time and the patience of both the elites and the population, he is deposed and retires quietly somewhere outside the country or at a temple somewhere. The fact Thaksin can't do that and does nothing but stir Thailand into a frenzy which has gone on now for almost 7 years indicates that he is unbalanced and needs to spend some considerable time in a monastary, somewhere in Cambodia would do just fine.

[Thaddeus]

do you have a stitch of evidence, even just a grain of information, anything at all ... I mean aaaaannnnnnyyyyything - at all - to support the bile you just puked out onto the forum?

Are you offering to loan him some of yours if he is out of bile now?

[lungmi]

On the one side we have the yellows and the 'amart' who are struggling to keep Thailand way back in the feudal past and THIS is causing a reaction on the 'other' side where Thai people feel they have no choice (because there is NO choice) to follow Thaksin and his cronies to fight this reactionary stance. If there was an alternative I'm very sure the vast majority would take it and this is why I, and others, say this is not 'all about Thaksin' it is about CHANGE and, unfortunately, and I have to admit this, there are those who are exploiting that feeling on both sides.

I think you will find that the PTP and red shirts are very interested in keeping the north and north east in the feudal past, because that makes the people easier to control.

T

hat is the basis of their control mechanism over the whole area.

They are using the old world feudal structure to move their amart

into replacing the old one, the trappings of democracy and socilaist uprising

are just that trappings.

The main worry is that should Thaksin die at the wrong time,

enough of his machine might blindly continue the quest, falter,

and spin out into a neo-communist run gullag of massive proportions,

killing 10s of thousands in it's ineptitude of ideology driven stupidities.

A scary prospect.

do you have a stitch of evidence, even just a grain of information, anything at all ... I mean aaaaannnnnnyyyyything - at all - to support the bile you just puked out onto the forum?

For a hack lawyer same you they wouldn't waste their time.

[binjalin]

That is the basis of their control mechanism over the whole area.

They are using the old world feudal structure to move their amart

into replacing the old one, the trappings of democracy and socilaist uprising

are just that trappings.

The main worry is that should Thaksin die at the wrong time,

enough of his machine might blindly continue the quest, falter,

and spin out into a neo-communist run gullag of massive proportions,

killing 10s of thousands in it's ineptitude of ideology driven stupidities.

A scary prospect.

Some of the most modern and successful democracies in the world achieved it without removing the 'amart', they achieved massive industrial and technological success and affluent middle class while remaining as a constitutional-monarchy with landed-gentry, nobility, judiciary and intelligentsia all left intact and institutionalised further as permanent social features.

The notion by reds that removing the 'amart' will redistribute wealth is a fallacy as can be seen under NK, USSR, Maoism etc. where the 'amart' were uprooted with maximum effect and yet after the revolution we see mass-starvation and oppression against the peasant-farmers, and ruled over by super-opulent 'people power' dictatorships just like the Shinawatras are.

The opposite can be seen in Sweden and England, both retain their landed gentry and constitutional monarchy, and while they are affected by changing global trends, they are still affluent modern technological parliamentary-democracies.

Maybe the reds should try to emulate those successful nations who achieved success without resorting to killing the 'amart', and more importantly without spending decades de-railing infrastructural progress with pathological obsessions against 'amarts', which waste so much time and energy, time that could be better spent on democratic policymaking.

'permanent social features' that gave me a smile - but doubt the poor farmers would see the funny side eking away on a few thousand baht a month while the amart rape the nations wealth and drive around in Porches and reside in huge villas.

[Yunla]

'permanent social features' that gave me a smile - but doubt the poor farmers would see the funny side eking away on a few thousand baht a month while the amart rape the nations wealth and drive around in Porches and reside in huge villas.

Yes permanent social features. Like the English Queen who generates billions in tourist revenue for the UK economy. All the tourists who go to the UK to photograph Buckingham Palace and travel round the ancient noble houses.

It is an industry and a big cash payout for the social fund. If we had done away with the 'elites' in the UK, like you keep snivelling that we should do in Thailand, there would have been a big loss of revenue' and spoilt peoples' holidays too.

I still find your comments about elites driving porsches and soforth, to be the hilarious clown words of pure comedy. You support the billionaires Thaksin and Yingluck and their crime-syndicate PTP, and yet you then stand there complaining about rich elites in their fancy cars. Here's word for what you just said; LOL.

Edited July 19, 2012 by Yunla

[Moruya]

Looks like it has been confirmed that as I suggested yesterday the supposedly mentally ill woman who defiled a picture of his majesty was indeed part of the Red Shirt protests.

The intrepid Chalerm is on her case.

It will probably involve a swift death

Deputy Prime Minister Chalerm Yoobamrung on Thursday confirmed police would charge a woman accused of insulting the monarchy if she was found to be sane in the mental status examination.

"I confirm police will take action," he said, dismissing speculation about police inaction.

On Friday, Thitinan Juntaranont, Thai expatriate from New Zealand and seen as a red shirt, defiled the picture of the King displayed at the multi-colour shirt rally during the Constitution Court verdict session on charter change.

Policemen promptly intervened to escort her from the scene and refused to press charge on grounds for suspected insanity.

A number of activists stepped forward to criticise police for drawing a hasty conclusion before sending the accused for psychological evaluation.

On Tuesday following the spread of messages in the social media, a number of Thais rallied at Suvarnabhumi Airport in a bid prevent Thitinan from boarding a flight to Auckland.

Police subsequently clarified that Thitinan was admitted to the Galya Rajanagarindra Institute to undergo mental tests.

No you were wrong. She may be "seen as a redshirt" by the Nation but that means nothing . She was not at a "red shirt protest" because there were no red shirts protesting at the court. They specifically stayed away because as reported, a multi colour shirt rally was being held there.

In addition to the non facts provided by the Nation the innocuous phrase:

"following the spread of messages in the social media, a number of Thais rallied at Suvarnabhumi Airport in a bid prevent Thitinan from boarding a flight to Auckland"

sums up the Nations leanings transparently well I feel.

As for your swift death comment, well, reality and you are not constant companions, could we say?

Just a swift death for drug traffickers?

Who knows with Chalerm. Taking a human life is like being drunk in Parliament- it's quite normal.

[binjalin]

'permanent social features' that gave me a smile - but doubt the poor farmers would see the funny side eking away on a few thousand baht a month while the amart rape the nations wealth and drive around in Porches and reside in huge villas.

Yes permanent social features. Like the English Queen who generates billions in tourist revenue for the UK economy. All the tourists who go to the UK to photograph Buckingham Palace and travel round the ancient noble houses.

It is an industry and a big cash payout for the social fund. If we had done away with the 'elites' in the UK, like you keep snivelling that we should do in Thailand, there would have been a big loss of revenue' and spoilt peoples' holidays too.

I still find your comments about elites driving porsches and soforth, to be the hilarious clown words of pure comedy. You support the billionaires Thaksin and Yingluck and their crime-syndicate PTP, and yet you then stand there complaining about rich elites in their fancy cars. here's word for what you just said; LOL.

Let's go through it shall we? Russia, China and many other countries generate billions too - and...yes... people (like me and maybe even elite wanna-be's like you) go along and take photos etc. The 'ancient and noble houses' are mostly EMPTY in the UK or owned by the nation - and beautiful they are too we have a very rich and wonderful history - and that's what it is - history.

I ask you to RETRACT that I support Thaksin or Yingluck OR point to any post where I have declared any such support - EVER. I do not support PTP either - show me where I have EVER stated that? or apologize. I am against corruption and materialism from wherever it shows it's ugly face.

now let's get back on topic please.

Did the CC act outside of it's powers? yes would be my view and most of the nation too I would imagine as every Thai I have spoken too abhors the interference in THEIR elected body.

[metisdead]

Off topic posts, nonsense posts, inflammatory posts and replies have been removed.

[animatic]

On the one side we have the yellows and the 'amart' who are struggling to keep Thailand way back in the feudal past and THIS is causing a reaction on the 'other' side where Thai people feel they have no choice (because there is NO choice) to follow Thaksin and his cronies to fight this reactionary stance. If there was an alternative I'm very sure the vast majority would take it and this is why I, and others, say this is not 'all about Thaksin' it is about CHANGE and, unfortunately, and I have to admit this, there are those who are exploiting that feeling on both sides.

I think you will find that the PTP and red shirts are very interested in keeping the north and north east in the feudal past, because that makes the people easier to control.

T

hat is the basis of their control mechanism over the whole area.

They are using the old world feudal structure to move their amart

into replacing the old one, the trappings of democracy and socilaist uprising

are just that trappings.

The main worry is that should Thaksin die at the wrong time,

enough of his machine might blindly continue the quest, falter,

and spin out into a neo-communist run gullag of massive proportions,

killing 10s of thousands in it's ineptitude of ideology driven stupidities.

A scary prospect.

do you have a stitch of evidence, even just a grain of information, anything at all ... I mean aaaaannnnnnyyyyything - at all - to support the bile you just puked out onto the forum?

Nice try, no sale,

it's every where, do your own homework.

[animatic]

That is the basis of their control mechanism over the whole area.

They are using the old world feudal structure to move their amart

into replacing the old one, the trappings of democracy and socilaist uprising

are just that trappings.

The main worry is that should Thaksin die at the wrong time,

enough of his machine might blindly continue the quest, falter,

and spin out into a neo-communist run gullag of massive proportions,

killing 10s of thousands in it's ineptitude of ideology driven stupidities.

A scary prospect.

Some of the most modern and successful democracies in the world achieved it without removing the 'amart', they achieved massive industrial and technological success and affluent middle class while remaining as a constitutional-monarchy with landed-gentry, nobility, judiciary and intelligentsia all left intact and institutionalised further as permanent social features.

The notion by reds that removing the 'amart' will redistribute wealth is a fallacy as can be seen under NK, USSR, Maoism etc. where the 'amart' were uprooted with maximum effect and yet after the revolution we see mass-starvation and oppression against the peasant-farmers, and ruled over by super-opulent 'people power' dictatorships just like the Shinawatras are.

The opposite can be seen in Sweden and England, both retain their landed gentry and constitutional monarchy, and while they are affected by changing global trends, they are still affluent modern technological parliamentary-democracies.

Maybe the reds should try to emulate those successful nations who achieved success without resorting to killing the 'amart', and more importantly without spending decades de-railing infrastructural progress with pathological obsessions against 'amarts', which waste so much time and energy, time that could be better spent on democratic policymaking.

'permanent social features' that gave me a smile - but doubt the poor farmers would see the funny side eking away on a few thousand baht a month while the amart rape the nations wealth and drive around in Porches and reside in huge villas.

More of a problem is the middle management upo an comers using age old shylockian methods to keep the poor poor as they profit and try to move up the status chain.

Those at the very top aren't going to fall and suddenly create a well spring of general wealth. But if someone puts the hammer down on the greedy middlemen, the poor will have a bigger percentage of what they work for, and not the lions share going to the middle men.

[binjalin]

That is the basis of their control mechanism over the whole area.

They are using the old world feudal structure to move their amart

into replacing the old one, the trappings of democracy and socilaist uprising

are just that trappings.

The main worry is that should Thaksin die at the wrong time,

enough of his machine might blindly continue the quest, falter,

and spin out into a neo-communist run gullag of massive proportions,

killing 10s of thousands in it's ineptitude of ideology driven stupidities.

A scary prospect.

Some of the most modern and successful democracies in the world achieved it without removing the 'amart', they achieved massive industrial and technological success and affluent middle class while remaining as a constitutional-monarchy with landed-gentry, nobility, judiciary and intelligentsia all left intact and institutionalised further as permanent social features.

The notion by reds that removing the 'amart' will redistribute wealth is a fallacy as can be seen under NK, USSR, Maoism etc. where the 'amart' were uprooted with maximum effect and yet after the revolution we see mass-starvation and oppression against the peasant-farmers, and ruled over by super-opulent 'people power' dictatorships just like the Shinawatras are.

The opposite can be seen in Sweden and England, both retain their landed gentry and constitutional monarchy, and while they are affected by changing global trends, they are still affluent modern technological parliamentary-democracies.

Maybe the reds should try to emulate those successful nations who achieved success without resorting to killing the 'amart', and more importantly without spending decades de-railing infrastructural progress with pathological obsessions against 'amarts', which waste so much time and energy, time that could be better spent on democratic policymaking.

'permanent social features' that gave me a smile - but doubt the poor farmers would see the funny side eking away on a few thousand baht a month while the amart rape the nations wealth and drive around in Porches and reside in huge villas.

More of a problem is the middle management upo an comers using age old shylockian methods to keep the poor poor as they profit and try to move up the status chain.

Those at the very top aren't going to fall and suddenly create a well spring of general wealth. But if someone puts the hammer down on the greedy middlemen, the poor will have a bigger percentage of what they work for, and not the lions share going to the middle men.

well that's true too but the 'system' encourages wanting to 'get there' and get their noses in the trough. India is the same - I worked there for a year and all they wanted to do was get up the ladder so they could 'relax' and rake it in. They called them 'Babu's'. But here there are a few who REALLY rake it in and own almost everything thereby encouraging this culture of 'middlemen' who add on % after % it's a bit like a nightmare MLM scheme

[rixalex]

I ask you to RETRACT that I support Thaksin or Yingluck OR point to any post where I have declared any such support - EVER. I do not support PTP either - show me where I have EVER stated that? or apologize. I am against corruption and materialism from wherever it shows it's ugly face.

A quick review back of a selection of your posts in the political forum and even the blind would see your staunch support and defence of the "Shin camp". I'd happily post a long list of your quotes that blatantly demonstrate this fact, were those quotes not taking us off-topic. It's all there in the search function for anyone with the time and inclination.

[Skywalker69]

That is the basis of their control mechanism over the whole area.

They are using the old world feudal structure to move their amart

into replacing the old one, the trappings of democracy and socilaist uprising

are just that trappings.

The main worry is that should Thaksin die at the wrong time,

enough of his machine might blindly continue the quest, falter,

and spin out into a neo-communist run gullag of massive proportions,

killing 10s of thousands in it's ineptitude of ideology driven stupidities.

A scary prospect.

Some of the most modern and successful democracies in the world achieved it without removing the 'amart', they achieved massive industrial and technological success and affluent middle class while remaining as a constitutional-monarchy with landed-gentry, nobility, judiciary and intelligentsia all left intact and institutionalised further as permanent social features.

The notion by reds that removing the 'amart' will redistribute wealth is a fallacy as can be seen under NK, USSR, Maoism etc. where the 'amart' were uprooted with maximum effect and yet after the revolution we see mass-starvation and oppression against the peasant-farmers, and ruled over by super-opulent 'people power' dictatorships just like the Shinawatras are.

The opposite can be seen in Sweden and England, both retain their landed gentry and constitutional monarchy, and while they are affected by changing global trends, they are still affluent modern technological parliamentary-democracies.

Maybe the reds should try to emulate those successful nations who achieved success without resorting to killing the 'amart', and more importantly without spending decades de-railing infrastructural progress with pathological obsessions against 'amarts', which waste so much time and energy, time that could be better spent on democratic policymaking.

Exellent post!

[Noistar]

I'd never heard of an instance in which a court ordered the duly elected national legislature to halt its procedings for any reason, so TIT democracy for sure.

PTP anyway can fully implement its policies without having Thaksin on hand to issue the orders, directives, allocate the money himself. PTP is wasting its time and the time of everyone else in spending so much time and national energy to try to get Thaksin back into the country. I've remarked before that Thaksin is too much of an egomaniac to be allowed to return to take change of things either up front or from behind the scenes. Historically, every time a leader in Thailand runs out of his time and the patience of both the elites and the population, he is deposed and retires quietly somewhere outside the country or at a temple somewhere. The fact Thaksin can't do that and does nothing but stir Thailand into a frenzy which has gone on now for almost 7 years indicates that he is unbalanced and needs to spend some considerable time in a monastary, somewhere in Cambodia would do just fine.

I continue to ask (without success), 'what is the definition of Democracy in the Thai sense?'. Posters quote it continually, but the definition seems to be as firm as a jelly. There are no end of boring (IMO) 'number crunching' posts, trying to support different perceptions.

IMHO - Current attempts at a Democracy seem to be confused by the ruling party's significant majority, allowing them to apparently manipulate the mechanism of Government. Did the Speaker prevent the Opposition from having sufficient debating time?

IMHO - I also get the impression that the ruling party believe they don't need debates, because their majority assures the end result - a PTP victory. Begs the question - what do the ruling party think the Opposition are there for? It's easier to be always right if you don't need to confuse yourself with input from people, who do not necessarily share your views.

Hence the need for an EFFECTIVE mechanism to CHALLENGE, (not necessarily overturn), Government decisions.

IMHO - If the Democratic Government (of whatever colour) places the goal-posts for their own benefit and can't be trusted to control itself, for Thailand's sake, somebody has to.

IMHO - Posters ask the valid question 'who controls the controllers'? If anyone has the answer, perhaps they can post it, although I believe there is no answer.

Ah well, back to the naughty boys' corner to carry on with my homework.

[Skywalker69]

Red shirts burn mock coffin of Constitution Court judges

BANGKOK: -- Some 90 red-shirt people from Pathum Thani filed a compliant with police against nine Constitution Court judges and burned a mock coffin to protest in front of the court Monday.

The protesters were led by Wutthipong Kachathamkhun, a DJ of a red-shirt community radio station in Pathum Thani.

They gathered in front of the Constitution Court at the Government Complex at 11:30 am.

They carried banners condemning the judges and displaying a mock coffin with the names of the nine judges around it.

They also distributed copies of their complaint filed with the Kukot police station in Phathum Thani against the nine judges.

Wutthipong said his group alleged that the nine judges had committed sedition and falsifying documents to pretend to have authorities to make a ruling on constitution amendments.

The court has ruled that charter amendments could be done on article-by-article basis and an entirely new charter could not be drafted unless a public referendum was held first.

The group burned the mock coffin at noon and moved to the Government House to hand over a copy of compliant against the judges to Deputy Prime Minster Chalem Yoobamrung.

-- The Nation 2012-07-16

I would like to know the TV "Red Shirtinistas" think about this behavior?

[Noistar]

Red shirts burn mock coffin of Constitution Court judges

BANGKOK: -- Some 90 red-shirt people from Pathum Thani filed a compliant with police against nine Constitution Court judges and burned a mock coffin to protest in front of the court Monday.

The protesters were led by Wutthipong Kachathamkhun, a DJ of a red-shirt community radio station in Pathum Thani.

They gathered in front of the Constitution Court at the Government Complex at 11:30 am.

They carried banners condemning the judges and displaying a mock coffin with the names of the nine judges around it.

They also distributed copies of their complaint filed with the Kukot police station in Phathum Thani against the nine judges.

Wutthipong said his group alleged that the nine judges had committed sedition and falsifying documents to pretend to have authorities to make a ruling on constitution amendments.

The court has ruled that charter amendments could be done on article-by-article basis and an entirely new charter could not be drafted unless a public referendum was held first.

The group burned the mock coffin at noon and moved to the Government House to hand over a copy of compliant against the judges to Deputy Prime Minster Chalem Yoobamrung.

-- The Nation 2012-07-16

I'm confused. Every time there is a reference to representation of PTP, ie the Government, it refers to Chalem. Is he effectively the PM now, as there appears to be scant evidence of leadership by Yingluck?

I'm sure the PM in (other?) democracies, would be at the front when problems face the country (IMHO)

Edited July 19, 2012 by Noistar

[nurofiend]

Red shirts burn mock coffin of Constitution Court judges

BANGKOK: -- Some 90 red-shirt people from Pathum Thani filed a compliant with police against nine Constitution Court judges and burned a mock coffin to protest in front of the court Monday.

The protesters were led by Wutthipong Kachathamkhun, a DJ of a red-shirt community radio station in Pathum Thani.

They gathered in front of the Constitution Court at the Government Complex at 11:30 am.

They carried banners condemning the judges and displaying a mock coffin with the names of the nine judges around it.

They also distributed copies of their complaint filed with the Kukot police station in Phathum Thani against the nine judges.

Wutthipong said his group alleged that the nine judges had committed sedition and falsifying documents to pretend to have authorities to make a ruling on constitution amendments.

The court has ruled that charter amendments could be done on article-by-article basis and an entirely new charter could not be drafted unless a public referendum was held first.

The group burned the mock coffin at noon and moved to the Government House to hand over a copy of compliant against the judges to Deputy Prime Minster Chalem Yoobamrung.

-- The Nation 2012-07-16

I would like to know the TV "Red Shirtinistas" think about this behavior?

why don't you point out who the red shirtinistas are and ask them?

[animatic]

More of a problem is the middle management upo an comers using age old shylockian methods to keep the poor poor as they profit and try to move up the status chain.

Those at the very top aren't going to fall and suddenly create a well spring of general wealth. But if someone puts the hammer down on the greedy middlemen, the poor will have a bigger percentage of what they work for, and not the lions share going to the middle men.

well that's true too but the 'system' encourages wanting to 'get there' and get their noses in the trough. India is the same - I worked there for a year and all they wanted to do was get up the ladder so they could 'relax' and rake it in. They called them 'Babu's'. But here there are a few who REALLY rake it in and own almost everything thereby encouraging this culture of 'middlemen' who add on % after % it's a bit like a nightmare MLM scheme

Well that is a social Kow Tow issue and not exclusive to Thailand.

What is is that no one top down has stopped the excesses,

because so many in the middle benefit and send their cuts upward to curry favor.

Like an old feudal fashion court. and as typical new and old courtiers use what

ever dirty tricks that can to raise their station. But it is worse in a Kow Tow society.

In capitalist Democracies we call it Keeping Up With The Jones

or nouveau riche social climbing.

In Kow Tow it is trying to step on your best friend to curry favor,

and anyone below is just a stone to step on to climb higher.

But not just the greedy few, but all, because it is cultural.

In most places only the truly greedy few are this bad.