Treatment Of A Monk

[camerata]

Opened again at OP's request.

[fabianfred]

Does this mean he has died?

Perhaps the OP could show a photo of the monk.

Even during the Buddha's time some monks ignored a fellow monk's suffering and illness.... and the Buddha himself went to wash and advise the monk as how to practice himself.

The four most basic necessities in life are Food, Shelter, Clothing and medicines. Helping the sick is very merituous.

As has been said, a temple reflects the good example and practice of the abbot, so if the abbot is lazy about doing his duties towards the community who support the temple...they will cease. If he is not setting a good example then his monks and novices will also abandon their rules of training and any good monks will go to another temple finding the atmosphere incompatible.

We cannot assume that his abbot is like this.... perhaps having been living for so long in this temple everyone, monks, novices, lay people have got used to seeing him in this condition.......'familiarity breeds contempt'.

Perhaps this monk himself ignored others in a similar condition when he was younger and the karma is coming back to him.

Any monk or temple which practices the dhamma well and is a good example will be well supported by the lay people and not ignored. Perhaps in his younger days this monk caused people to lose respect for him and hence has been ignored by them.

Since we cannot know the truth about the past we can only speculate as to the probable/possible causes. We all tend to mellow in old age.... he might have been quite a tiger at one stage........

[OxfordWill]

chowna is being logical. Theres also two ways to take your question "crisis of faith".

You might mean:

1) Youre starting to doubt buddhist principles/beliefs

2) Youre starting to think you cant associate with people claiming to share your beliefs but who act so badly.

I think chowna took you on your first meaning, and most of the others understood it as (2).

[OxfordWill]

If we are allowed to help we will if not then we will keep our noses out of it. but if the funeral expenses are paid for by the "village" and here I pressume you mean the surroundig neighbothood then why dont the villagers bother to see him while he is still alive?... if he is still alive

Unfortunately giving money to the temple for such things is not a sign that the giver "gives a rats".

Its simply the "done thing".

One must appear to be a good buddhist if one is unable to actually be one.

[ThaiPauly]

I asked for this thread to be re-opened after such a long time to I could give everyine who was so concerned about his well-being an update.

He IS STILL ALIVE , but not for much longer I fear. He has developed lung cancer.

We went to see him at the Monk's Hospital last Sunday (what a depressing place) after driving up from Surat Thani we went directly to the Temple but was told he was in hospital, so we drove over to see him as I had a feeling he may not make it through the night.I got a bit upset with the staff as they have not given him any pain medication, and he was in a lot of pain. I offered to pay for morphine , but they told me it was up to the Doctor.

He was so pleased to see us, apparantly he calls me his "Farang Freind", he knows and remembers my Wife's name. I got a few smiles out of him after speaking to him in my limited Thai, which made it all worthwhile

We had seen him a week before at the Temple , but he was not well, but at least there ARE a couple of women who care about him, even though we had to pay one to clean his room.

Anyway the good news is he is now back at the Temple, he has not got long but he is determined that he is not going to die in hospital

I just wished at a time like this we did not live in Chiang Mai.

I have attatched a photo I took of him 3 years ago.

His name is Luang Porchat and he is 99 years old although he says he is only 96...he has been saying that for the last 3 years!!!

Edited September 27, 2009 by ThaiPauly

[phetaroi]

Knowing that his possesions will be stolen when he dies, he probably wants you to take at least something, so that he knows someone he cares for has something of his passed on to them.

Goes to show there are some really lousy people out there, even those in robes. Good on you and your wife, and I hope he doesn't suffer too much in his last days.

My thought about this is that it is probably not seen as stealing. I was the principal of a school in suburban Washington, D.C. And, not a poor area...actually in one of the richest counties in the U.S. A spectacle that I found to be troubling and embarrassing was acted out once a year unless I was hyper-vigilant -- after the end of the school year, as some teachers left for other places, some very fine teachers who were also very fine people, would horde any materials and even furniture left in the classroom. It wasn't material which had been allotted to them (and incidentally, we were a rather rich school, so there was very little a teacher wanted that he or she wasn't given), so it was stealing. They just didn't see it that way at all.

I'm not saying it's right. I'm saying we should look carefully at perceptions here.

[phetaroi]

....................

All this has really irked me, I cannot understand why this Monk of well over 50years standing , who must have helped and contributed an awful lot to the faith should be treated so so shabbily?

Yes I understand the Bhudda said "Life Is Suffering" is his situation all part of the "suffering".?

..........................

I am not asking any TV Members for help, this is our situation and I am sure that most of you do your own thing to help out unfortunates, but..................

can somebody help me out here as I am having a small "Crisis of faith"?

.....................

The focus of most of what you wrote is the suffering of the monk. I have kept the parts of your post that I hope will give a different emphasis. I would like to suggest that YOU are suffering. It is your suffering that is the cause of your post. I am not trying to say that the monk's suffering is unimportant but I truly believe that if you want to help people with their suffering then the first thing you must do is to learn as much about suffering as possible and I truly believe that the best way to do this from a Buddhist standpoint is to learn about the Four Noble Truths and the Noble Eightfold Path.

The Four Noble Truths in a nutshell:

1. All lives have lots of suffering.

2. Suffering arises from craving.

3. It is possible for all suffering to end.

4. The way to end suffering is to follow the Noble Eightfold Path.

The Noble Eightfold Path in a nutshell:

I don't do this one in a nutshell but there are countless books written explaining it and countless websites with free explanations of it and one which I like very much is:

http://www.buddhanet.net/wingscon.htm

This website has alot of information on a large number of Buddhist topics but if you look you will find the talk specifically on the Noble Eightfold Path......and more....

Despite later posts, I'm still not really clear what the point of this post was. To me it seems that the poster was suggesting that it is okay to overlook suffering, because suffering happens. I would rather say that each of us has an obligation to stop suffering, if we can.

Edited September 27, 2009 by phetaroi

[ThaiPauly]

UPDATE.

He is no longer a Monk

As his health is failing badly now the "powers that be" have decided they can no longer care for him and have kicked him out at 99 years old

We went to the temple to see him on Christmas morning to be told this. The ariel we had paid for so that he could watch TV without interference was stolen by the woman we were paying to take care of him.

She also claimed the TV we gave him was hers but luckily it was sent with him to his new abode.

Someone stole his DVD player though.

With the help of another woman at the Temple we managed to track him down to a distant relatives home in the slums near the wat in Klong Toey. (If you have ever been into them you will know just how bad living standards are there )We found him on the floor resting on a lice and sh*t ridden mattrass in a blue T shirt and shorts, I wish I had taken my camera so I could post a picture of what this once proud man now has to suffer.

He looked so unhappy, he is dying a slow death, but REALLY wants to die as a Monk, he wants to be at the wat, I think (and this is just my thinking) that if he does not die as a Monk the last 60 years of his life in the saffron robes will have been wasted.

We gave him money ..what else could we do there and then, at least the people caring for him "seem" nice people ,but there again we thought the woman who was looking after him before was a nice person.

We have just got back to CM and now have to consider what our next step should be, my Wife knows many Abbots up here and she will speak to them to see if anything can be done about bringing him up here and getting him back in his robes so he can die with some dignity and a sense of belonging.

If anyone can give me advice on what to do I would be very grateful. I cannot claim to have much understanding of religious stuff, Karma, Bhudda, Enlightenment nor beleive in anything much, just that there are higher powers in this universe than me...I am just doing what I can to help a fellow human being in distress.

It goes back to my original thread title really.

TREATMENT OF A MONK - VERY HARSH

Oh and please don't post stuff about "Life is Suffering" I have heard that many times, maybe its true maybe not , but I prefer to deal with REALITY right now

Thank you for reading.

[camerata]

UPDATE.

He is no longer a Monk

As his health is failing badly now the "powers that be" have decided they can no longer care for him and have kicked him out at 99 years old

Sounds like the people running that temple haven't read the story in the Pali Canon about the Buddha taking care of a sick monk himself when he found other monks ignoring him:

One day the Buddha visited a monastery. While he was there he came across a chamber where a monk lay in great pain caused by a loathsome disease. Although there were many other monks at the monastery, not one of them was concerned about their sick brother. The Buddha, beholding this woeful situation, began to look after the suffering man. He called Ananda and together they bathed the monk, changed his dirty bed and eased his pain.

Then the Buddha admonished the monks of the monastery for their neglect and encouraged them to nurse the sick and care for the suffering. He concluded by saying, "Whosoever serves the sick and suffering, serves me."

[ThaiPauly]

For anyone remotley interested in the fate of this old man...he is dead

He wanted to die in the Temple, he was ordered to leave and disrobe 1 month before his demise.

He died on the floor of a slumhouse

Perhaps if there are any Monks reading this they can tell me why this was allowed to happen?

As Camatra said in the previous post it seems to go against the principles of the Bhudda's teachings.

RIP my freind

[camerata]

Very sad.

The whole story would make an interesting letter to the Bangkok Post.

[geriatrickid]

If the conduct in this matter was a reflection of the religion's adherents then one should draw one's conclusions from such actions. Religions are not buffets where one can pick and choose from the precepts and tenets. It's all or nothing. Not a pleasant comment to some readers, but sorry that's the reality. This is how these people practice their faith. The monk may have done the same to others 50 years ago.

Sometimes the behaviours and actions that we see do not convey the whole situation. One does not know what this monk did in the past or how he treated others. He was a frail endearing man in his later years. However, what does one know of his activities when he was a younger monk? Was he a good monk or was he like some of the others that were monks on the outside but quite something else on the inside.

Yes, this could be considered a cruel and disrespectful comment. Unfortunately, sometimes bad people do get old and they do mellow in their later years and seem to be good. This does not change what they were previously or the impact of their behaviour. Without a full knowledge of what someone did in the past and what the treatment of others was, one cannot really comment fairly on the treatment accorded to him now by those that he lived with. My intent is to point out that one should not rush to condemn the other monks or helpers without knowing the history.

[sabaijai]

GK makes a good point. There may be more to the forced disrobing than meets the eye. It doesn't seem to be the normal practice, ie plenty of monks die in robes in Thailand. There are monks hospitals, wondering whey he didn't go to one while still in robes. Not judging the man as I obviously don't know him.

In any case I hope he carried the dhamma with him even when out of robes, right to the last breath. They can't take that away.

[camerata]

Without a full knowledge of what someone did in the past and what the treatment of others was, one cannot really comment fairly on the treatment accorded to him now by those that he lived with.

Why not? If it turned out he was a nasty individual in the past it doesn't make it any more "just" that he was forced to leave the monkhood because he was too much trouble. The whole idea of Buddhism is not to judge people. What surprises me is that he wasn't sent to the Monk's Hospital. I know it isn't a hospice, but the guy sounded ill.

I guess we'll never know the details but perhaps the temple didn't have enough lay helpers able or willing to help look after him. I doubt the average monk would want to do it himself.

[thailandfaq]

He offered to give us all his ancient Bhuddist relics, but of course we could not accept them,

Accept the relics my friend.

please dont have a crisis of faith.

If you use this piece of wisdom to help you

We cannot change the practise of others - each person has to develop his own wisdom and learn to behave well on his own

If you are concerned with the good or bad behaviour of other people (including monks) whilst we are still imperfect ourselves 9to greater or lesser extent), then we are not practising properly.

To get caught up in concern or stressful thoughts about how bad or disgusting the behaviour of others is, is to put obstacles in the path of one's own practise.

You will never achieve concentration (samadhi) whilst you are focused on what others are doing (or not doing).

What you can do is do what you are able to do. You can ask others to help also; whether they do or not is up to them. Do not get entangled in concern for things not going the way you expect. Expectation is a cause of disappointment, which is Dhukkha (unsatisfactoriness/suffering).

We cannot alter the course of another person's karma, except by the merits we make and if they are affected by our merits and words.. but in the end it is up to them if they recieve the influence of our words and good example.

If the good Bhikkhu wishes to give you his relics you must take them, and rever them, or even donate them to a fitting person or place. if he wishes you to have them it could be that he does not wish them to fall into the wrong hands.

This Bhikkhu has already gone far in his practise and is not clinging to the causes of samsaric rebirth. let him practise in his humble way.

You can offer him any help or gifts you wish, but you cannot change hi or make him accept luxuries which he is no longer craving for. Having said this, normally a Bhikkhu must accept what is offered unless it is something against the Vinaya.

if any offerings are not needed by him, he will just give them to a needy person.

one good thing you can do is to take a doctor to him and pay the costs, or to buy the necessary medicine for him.

To donate medicine to the sangha is a great blessing.

When you make offerings anywhere you should include him in your dedication of merits.

On the day of offerings to sangha and triple gem, you should try to keep the 5 precepts and dedicate the merits also to other beings - think of this monk when doing so also. (although one should not make special dedications to particular beings rather to all beings both alive and dead, be they humans,devas, animals, yaksas, petas, or even maras).

This Bhikkhu is a great example of humility to us all.

Don't get concerned or lose faith because of the disinterest of the other Bhikkhus in the welfare of this monk.

It wont help anything.

If you do wish to cause an effect however, you can do the following (with great care to be auspicious in the way you do it)

You can talk to the abbot.

You should not accuse or directly ask things like "why dont you do something to help him?"

you should ask in a non accusative way like this;

So reverend sir, is it so that this old monk is ill?

Is it so that he is in a wheelchair and cannot help himself in all ways?

is it true that once the Buddha went to a dwelling place of Bhikkus and saw that there was a crippled monk lying in his own faeces in the bed?

Is it also true that the Buddha then asked the other Bhikkhus there why he was left like that?

is it true that the Bhikkhus replied that this monk was a cripple and of no use to anybody?

Is it then true that they also said that they did not give him medicine because they are Bhikkhus and not doctors, and that it wasnt their business?

is it then true that the Buddha and his dear friend Ananda washed the faeces from the body and bedding of this crippled Bhikkhu, and told the other Bhikkhus that they should take care of each other, because there were no doctors in the temple and that there was no one else to take care if they did not do it themselves for each other??

Let him answer all these questions.

And they all you can say when he answers is "hmm, thank you". the rest should be obvious for them to realise what you are trying to tell them (that they should help their fellow monk).

It will be up to the abbot and the other monks if they are wise and good Bhikkhus they will take action and be shamed.

It may also come to pass that the Bhikkhus are ignorant and show anger and call you cheeky.

if this happens do not feel you have committed an error, or an inauspicious action. If you can do this then you will have made great merit despite the outcome of the interrogation.

This is the way to teach, without accusation, only with questions.

Footnote.. after posting this i noticed that the post is a few years old now (woops) - i choose however to leave my addition here for sake of helping anyone who may have experienced a similar story.

Edited February 2, 2010 by thailandfaq

[thailandfaq]

For anyone remotley interested in the fate of this old man...he is dead

He wanted to die in the Temple, he was ordered to leave and disrobe 1 month before his demise.

He died on the floor of a slumhouse

Perhaps if there are any Monks reading this they can tell me why this was allowed to happen?

As Camatra said in the previous post it seems to go against the principles of the Bhudda's teachings.

RIP my freind

You cannot force any Bhikkhu to disrobe if he doesnt want to.

No one can do this.

The only way to get someone to disrobe is if there is a very strong reason such as a warrant for a criminal offence which is a case of Abhati Paracika (murder or rape or sleeping with a woman or having sex for example).

If this monk was forced to disrobe, then perhaps there was something which you are not ware of to do with the monk.

Maybe he wasn't all he seemed to be. This is the only explanation i can think of, for if he wished to die in his Kuti as a monk, then no one could have made him disrobe