Trial Of Former Thai Leader Abhisit Postponed For Two Weeks

[Skywalker69]

Im surprised at how many Abhisit followers there are on here. Mind you i guess these same people are probably Cameron worshippers too so that says it all.

I am surprised how many Abhisit Thaksin followers there are on here.

[scotbeve]

Someone has to answer for all those deaths and as he was the man in charge the blame should be laid on him. I really dont like him and have no doubt he was involved. I watched a documentary where government troops fired into what was supposed to have been marked as a safe haven, killing many, including Thai nurses. Its shocking what went on and somebody needs to be held accountable.

And who is being held responsible for the riots and the burning of many buildings in bangkok.

Yes, good question... didn't the dems put there alleged suspects away or ... oh, wait this is old news and hasn't been heard of again. Scapegoats or.... (waiting for the usual rabid responses ) Will the truth EVER come out? Or will it be as secret as the JFK assassination?

Come on admit it you don't want to have the truth come out. You just want to hear what you want to hear. There is enough on u tube to bury the red shirts.

Hello,

I would very much like to hear the truth for a change - too many presumptions, hearsay, theories, and pro-this-color / pro-that-color interjections about thanks! Let's not even talk about the media (anywhere) as that's absolutely pointless.

[sweetguy1820]

/

Hello,

I would very much like to hear the truth for a change - too many presumptions, hearsay, theories, and pro-this-color / pro-that-color interjections about thanks! Let's not even talk about the media (anywhere) as that's absolutely pointless.

/

Really like this comment. As a thai background, i really hate to hear other nations talking bout my stupid governments running donkey jobs over the years.

Me (a thai guy who moved back with undergra and grad degrees a month before red shirt at paragon incident) and my thai friends (who didnt want to returned back here) want the same thing which is 1) to have abhisit doing a rational job (after having been reading thai news from every sources both thai and oversea. His party's speaker should work in a gossip magazine.) besides causing a daily drama in news. 2) For red shirt... Stop bitching about a hard time..u already won..congrat!! Now get ur asses to work... Nothing comes for free...

Seeing many people talking here about this country is truely ashame but well what can i do?

[Moruya]

This is madness.

If this had been the USA or England Aus etc then all of the barricaded and heavily armed rioters would have been taken out by sniper fire, SAS, SWAT etc and their entire blockade steam rolled by armoured tanks.

They would have got what they deserved and there would have been no witch hunt or court proceedings to determine whether the government forces had caused lives to be lost! They caused their own destruction by drawing first blood and taking on the government in an armed riot. Yes there would have been some innocent lives lost but the government had zero choice but to use armed force. Just a shame IMHO that it took them 6 weeks to get around to getting serious with it all.

The problem here is that the red rogues seized power (Abhisit's biggest mistake to allow PTP AKA Thaksin/reds proxy party to field a candidate) and now they are going about justifiying their own actions which extends to massive payouts for the riots which they started and also trying to change the constitution to get their thug criminal leader off the hook and ultimately back to power.

I hope that Mr Abhisit handles this gracefully and with determined confidence. I believe he is an honest and intelligent man,.. one who would make a better leader next time based on his real world experience in front line politics.

I pray for good people to prevail in the Thai government,.. but maybe in the meantime this current PTP governement will implode within itself or enage in some other inescapable own-foot shooting calamity that brings it undone!

You sir are appalling.

I'm just disturbed that a poster here would seriously consider a "tianamen" solution to protestors. Even if they have exceeded their legal, constitutional protest rights, to resort to that type of response is appalling.

Or perhaps you dislike the simile? Perhaps referring to it as a "Waco" solution is more appropriate?

Did you type before considering that the government is meant to represent the collective will of the people. If it has so lost the respect and ability to negotiate with a reasonable segment of the voters, then it has lost all legitimacy. And further - if it then has to resort to force and censorship to impose it's will - instead of all the people's will - it has become the criminal.

Abhisit himself spoke of that opinion against the Samak administration after the death of a PAD protestor. Then he became responsible for much worse.

If - as I suspect - you are American - I suggest you look up your own history and understand why we do not refer to George Washington as a terrorist.

You Sir talk ilinformed garbage and I suggest if you followed events in during the red terrorist siege at the time you would have been aware that the UDD thugs were only interested in outright victory and the government resigning, When there were negotiations with the so called "leadership" of these Anti democratic Thailand Thugs they were not interested in any peaceful deal but what they saw as a "victory" Donkeys leading Buffalos

You missed my point - if negotiation was impossible then a reasonable government would rather have resigned and called immediate elections rather than more violence. Just as Abhisit proposed himself after the death of a PAD protestor in 2008.

Like many, I have lived in Bangkok before the coup, during the PAD protests, during the UDD protests, and am still here. I don't think "ill-informed" is really the appropriate term for you to use? But you are entitled to have your opinion of course.

Resign because of protests? That's democracy in motion?

[Moruya]

It will be good to get this part put to rest.

If anyone seriously thinks that Abhisit and Suthep ordered the army to go on a turkey shoot, they should admit themselves to an institution for the logically bewildered.

The orders came from CRES and almost certainly authorized the use of live ammunition in self defense.

I have no doubt that that those orders were cascaded to the ranks of the armed forces.

As for what exactly happened at each moment in time, we will probably never know. Some deaths may be solvable and some will not. There are too many people on all sides with vested interests for the untainted facts to come out.

Were the army trained for this? No. Should the police have dealt with it? For sure. Were mistakes made? Absolutely. Did they result in deaths? Almost certainly.

I understand that former premier Abhisit seemed to have moved even closer to the Army at the time of the BKK street protests. Further that Abhisit took refuge in Military Barracks throughout the duration of street protests. During this time he reportedly acquired a personnel military guard of approximately 200 active soldiers. I think he must have lost touch with reality and fell into a fantasy military role himself supposedly with a view to crush the protesters. When attempts to resolve the issues by negotiation were taking place Abhisit appeared from reports in the public domain to be negotiating for a stalemate. That is why so many of us were horrified at the anticipated brutal crushing of the protesters. Abhist's intent was apparent to many of us. I do wish that the minutes of Abhisit's meetings with the Red shirts would be placed in the public domain together with the minutes of any of his meetings with senior army officers during the lifetime of the red shirt protests. Once protesters started to loose their lives the protest movement began to dissolve. It is noticed that many from the I-san were offered bus transport to the home town using their ID cards as tickets. It is understood that their names were recorded. In subsequent months many have spoken. of calls in the night by strangers, and some of the visited apppear to have been disappeared.

Why don't you present some facts instead of half baked "I think" and "I understand"

[Moruya]

airconsult - You ignore Abhisit's repeated attempts to negotiate a peaceful end to the situation by offering new elections in three months which were rejected by red shirt leaders who had no intention of negotiating in good faith. You also ignore the FACT that the red shirts were in many cases not simply peaceful protesters. Violent acts were being committed by various red shirt factions for weeks before the decision was finally made to move in a break up the protests. It is tragic that people got killed in the process, but people got killed on both sides.

You may find my opinion appalling, sir, but I find yours equally so. I regard the red shirts as fascists, and you are an apologist for fascists.

Interesting being called a fascist when you proposed an even more brutal crackdown? Very Ironic.

If you read the daily news, talked to people on both sides etc at the time, you would have understood that no-one believed the offer was sincere - however I do concede that when it looked to be an acceptable compromise due to the escalating violence (from both sides - yes, there were military snipers taking shots even then), Seh Daeng presumed to speak for all and rejected it yet again - his shooting shortly after that pretty much convinced everyone that the government could not be trusted.

You present a lot of wobbly opinion as fact.

[Skywalker69]

This is madness.

If this had been the USA or England Aus etc then all of the barricaded and heavily armed rioters would have been taken out by sniper fire, SAS, SWAT etc and their entire blockade steam rolled by armoured tanks.

They would have got what they deserved and there would have been no witch hunt or court proceedings to determine whether the government forces had caused lives to be lost! They caused their own destruction by drawing first blood and taking on the government in an armed riot. Yes there would have been some innocent lives lost but the government had zero choice but to use armed force. Just a shame IMHO that it took them 6 weeks to get around to getting serious with it all.

The problem here is that the red rogues seized power (Abhisit's biggest mistake to allow PTP AKA Thaksin/reds proxy party to field a candidate) and now they are going about justifiying their own actions which extends to massive payouts for the riots which they started and also trying to change the constitution to get their thug criminal leader off the hook and ultimately back to power.

I hope that Mr Abhisit handles this gracefully and with determined confidence. I believe he is an honest and intelligent man,.. one who would make a better leader next time based on his real world experience in front line politics.

I pray for good people to prevail in the Thai government,.. but maybe in the meantime this current PTP governement will implode within itself or enage in some other inescapable own-foot shooting calamity that brings it undone!

You sir are appalling.

I'm just disturbed that a poster here would seriously consider a "tianamen" solution to protestors. Even if they have exceeded their legal, constitutional protest rights, to resort to that type of response is appalling.

Or perhaps you dislike the simile? Perhaps referring to it as a "Waco" solution is more appropriate?

Did you type before considering that the government is meant to represent the collective will of the people. If it has so lost the respect and ability to negotiate with a reasonable segment of the voters, then it has lost all legitimacy. And further - if it then has to resort to force and censorship to impose it's will - instead of all the people's will - it has become the criminal.

Abhisit himself spoke of that opinion against the Samak administration after the death of a PAD protestor. Then he became responsible for much worse.

If - as I suspect - you are American - I suggest you look up your own history and understand why we do not refer to George Washington as a terrorist.

You Sir talk ilinformed garbage and I suggest if you followed events in during the red terrorist siege at the time you would have been aware that the UDD thugs were only interested in outright victory and the government resigning, When there were negotiations with the so called "leadership" of these Anti democratic Thailand Thugs they were not interested in any peaceful deal but what they saw as a "victory" Donkeys leading Buffalos

I would not call it negotiations. The Red Shirt leaders demanded that Abhisit´s government to step down.

[Buchholz]

Well there is always an in rushing of newbies all taking Thaksin's side

when he or his shills are making a big push on one matter or another,

so clearly they are trying a Hail Mary Pass to nail Abhisit and Suthep

and move them out of the way, or at least distract them from some other game afoot.

so right on cue here are these new voices, all singing the same song.

Right on schedule, like a damned hampster on a high profit treadmill.

If it wasn't so transparent it might seem astute and professional, but it doesn't.

Just obvious and of little use..

Indeed, so many that I've been remiss in not welcoming so many individually, that I extend a collective

and chuckle at the obviousness of their intent

.

[diehard60]

Someone has to answer for all those deaths and as he was the man in charge the blame should be laid on him. I really dont like him and have no doubt he was involved.

I watched a documentary where government troops fired into what was supposed to have been marked as a safe haven, killing many, including Thai nurses.

Its shocking what went on and somebody needs to be held accountable.

The simple fact that you "really don't like him" kinda taints your way of thinking. Your "have no doubt he was involved" statement means nothing unless you can back it up. Have you left school yet and does Mummy know you are using her computer?

Who was incharge of the government at that time?????? The person on top was incharge and he should answer for what was done.

Edited August 21, 2012 by diehard60

[metisdead]

A post containing profanities has been removed.

[nurofiend]

Well there is always an in rushing of newbies all taking Thaksin's side

when he or his shills are making a big push on one matter or another,

so clearly they are trying a Hail Mary Pass to nail Abhisit and Suthep

and move them out of the way, or at least distract them from some other game afoot.

so right on cue here are these new voices, all singing the same song.

Right on schedule, like a damned hampster on a high profit treadmill.

If it wasn't so transparent it might seem astute and professional, but it doesn't.

Just obvious and of little use..

What's obvious?

[SantiSuk]

If this had been the USA or England Aus etc then all of the barricaded and heavily armed rioters would have been taken out by sniper fire, SAS, SWAT etc and their entire blockade steam rolled by armoured tanks. They would have got what they deserved and there would have been no witch hunt or court proceedings to determine whether the government forces had caused lives to be lost! ...... [redacted]

Cant speak for USA or Aus, but you really are an earth alien if you think there would be no investigation after such an event in the UK. Think Bloody Sunday.

Edited August 22, 2012 by SantiSuk

[VintageTQ]

Someone has to answer for all those deaths and as he was the man in charge the blame should be laid on him. I really dont like him and have no doubt he was involved.

I watched a documentary where government troops fired into what was supposed to have been marked as a safe haven, killing many, including Thai nurses.

Its shocking what went on and somebody needs to be held accountable.

Interesting theory, "you dont like him" ipso facto he must have been invoved staggering logic.

<snip>

Just because i made two statements in one sentence doesnt have to mean that one is a basis of argument for the other.

But oh yes, thats exactly what it means because this is a forum and people unable to think before posting

I think you're missing the point. "I really dont like him" suggests that you're biased against him and "have no doubt he was involved" suggests that your conclusion came from that bias. If you would like to convince us that you're not biased, then it might've been a good idea not to mention your distaste for Abhisit. "But oh yes, thats exactly what it means because this is a forum and people unable to think before posting", since we can't read your mind we could only infer from your statements. So I would take your own advice and think before posting.

"Someone has to answer for all those deaths and as he was the man in charge the blame should be laid on him"

I partially agree with you but once again, you're overlooking the other possibilities. If you believe the reports that army equipment and uniform were stolen, then it's possible that there were imposters to frame the military. If you don't believe the reports and deny that such a scenario can possibly exist, then nothing can be done to show you the truth even if the former was true since you refuse to believe in it. By denying that military equipment were stolen, you would also deny that the red shirts and men in black were armed or perhaps they equipped themselves by some other means in which you would have to provide some more information.

You're ready to place all the blame on Abhisit but what about Thaksin? Shouldn't he be held accountable as well or do you deny that he's involved in the riots. I don't deny Abhisit's involvement since he was the PM of Thailand and in the country at the time (although he should've just went to make SomTam in Australia and deny any responsibility) so yes, he's involved. How much or how little, we don't know but let's not be quick to throw all the turd at him. If you heard from him directly or know exactly what orders were given, please share with us. As for the Red Shirt leaders inciting violence and burning of Bangkok, they cannot deny.

I'm remaining skeptical about media nowadays and it might do people some good to step back a bit. Too much red might make your eyes bloodshot.

Too long, didnt read

[Moruya]

Well there is always an in rushing of newbies all taking Thaksin's side

when he or his shills are making a big push on one matter or another,

so clearly they are trying a Hail Mary Pass to nail Abhisit and Suthep

and move them out of the way, or at least distract them from some other game afoot.

so right on cue here are these new voices, all singing the same song.

Right on schedule, like a damned hampster on a high profit treadmill.

If it wasn't so transparent it might seem astute and professional, but it doesn't.

Just obvious and of little use..

What's obvious?

It's esoteric

[nurofiend]

Well there is always an in rushing of newbies all taking Thaksin's side

when he or his shills are making a big push on one matter or another,

so clearly they are trying a Hail Mary Pass to nail Abhisit and Suthep

and move them out of the way, or at least distract them from some other game afoot.

so right on cue here are these new voices, all singing the same song.

Right on schedule, like a damned hampster on a high profit treadmill.

If it wasn't so transparent it might seem astute and professional, but it doesn't.

Just obvious and of little use..

What's obvious?

It's esoteric

haha it sure is, it sure is...

[Chupup]

Im surprised at how many Abhisit followers there are on here. Mind you i guess these same people are probably Cameron worshippers too so that says it all.

You really do talk a load of crap, how can you mention Cameron who is a total idiot and a yesterday man with a guy like Abhisit

who if given the chance ( without interferance from red mobs) would have put Thailand on the road to recovery

[mdaroma]

hmm why don't we just let any thug shoot, kill, burn, destroy property, harass law abiding people or do anything that they want when they want & when it's over give them lots of money for all the death & destruction that they caused, just because they wear a red shirt, terrorists are terrorists no matter where they are or who they are

[RogueExpat]

One thing I forgot - while the Red Shirt thugs were firing war weapons indiscrminantly over the top of the baricades that had human shields of women and children sitting in front of them with the Red Shirt leadership sitting in tents behind sipping cool drinks and eating sun dried pork on rice, the Abhisit administration was doing all they could to try to broker peace by offering a compromise on the Red Shirt terrorist's demands in the form of early elections.

It was the Red Shirts who had no intention of letting the civil un-rest abate until they had razed Bangkok to the ground.

If you ask me, the reponse by the Abhisit administration was handled with silk gloves, and now they still find themselves in the position of political revenge.

If any charges in the past ten years are polically motivated, it is these, and not the blatant stealing from the country from the other camp.

Shame on you Shinawatra's and all the other modern day warlords political factions that supported this.

[Nickymaster]

Someone has to answer for all those deaths and as he was the man in charge the blame should be laid on him. I really dont like him and have no doubt he was involved.

I watched a documentary where government troops fired into what was supposed to have been marked as a safe haven, killing many, including Thai nurses.

Its shocking what went on and somebody needs to be held accountable.

Interesting theory, "you dont like him" ipso facto he must have been invoved staggering logic.

<snip>

Just because i made two statements in one sentence doesnt have to mean that one is a basis of argument for the other.

But oh yes, thats exactly what it means because this is a forum and people unable to think before posting

I think you're missing the point. "I really dont like him" suggests that you're biased against him and "have no doubt he was involved" suggests that your conclusion came from that bias. If you would like to convince us that you're not biased, then it might've been a good idea not to mention your distaste for Abhisit. "But oh yes, thats exactly what it means because this is a forum and people unable to think before posting", since we can't read your mind we could only infer from your statements. So I would take your own advice and think before posting.

"Someone has to answer for all those deaths and as he was the man in charge the blame should be laid on him"

I partially agree with you but once again, you're overlooking the other possibilities. If you believe the reports that army equipment and uniform were stolen, then it's possible that there were imposters to frame the military. If you don't believe the reports and deny that such a scenario can possibly exist, then nothing can be done to show you the truth even if the former was true since you refuse to believe in it. By denying that military equipment were stolen, you would also deny that the red shirts and men in black were armed or perhaps they equipped themselves by some other means in which you would have to provide some more information.

You're ready to place all the blame on Abhisit but what about Thaksin? Shouldn't he be held accountable as well or do you deny that he's involved in the riots. I don't deny Abhisit's involvement since he was the PM of Thailand and in the country at the time (although he should've just went to make SomTam in Australia and deny any responsibility) so yes, he's involved. How much or how little, we don't know but let's not be quick to throw all the turd at him. If you heard from him directly or know exactly what orders were given, please share with us. As for the Red Shirt leaders inciting violence and burning of Bangkok, they cannot deny.

I'm remaining skeptical about media nowadays and it might do people some good to step back a bit. Too much red might make your eyes bloodshot.

How about the Police? They purposely disappeared from the "war zone" when the Reds arrived. Very well coordinated by... uhh.. someone. Police FAILED to control the crowd and when things got completely out of hand the army had to clean up the mess.

If someone should be blamed its the Police and the invisible hand controlling the Police for framing the army.

[charmonman]

airconsult - You ignore Abhisit's repeated attempts to negotiate a peaceful end to the situation by offering new elections in three months which were rejected by red shirt leaders who had no intention of negotiating in good faith. You also ignore the FACT that the red shirts were in many cases not simply peaceful protesters. Violent acts were being committed by various red shirt factions for weeks before the decision was finally made to move in a break up the protests. It is tragic that people got killed in the process, but people got killed on both sides.

You may find my opinion appalling, sir, but I find yours equally so. I regard the red shirts as fascists, and you are an apologist for fascists.

Interesting being called a fascist when you proposed an even more brutal crackdown? Very Ironic.

If you read the daily news, talked to people on both sides etc at the time, you would have understood that no-one believed the offer was sincere - however I do concede that when it looked to be an acceptable compromise due to the escalating violence (from both sides - yes, there were military snipers taking shots even then), Seh Daeng presumed to speak for all and rejected it yet again - his shooting shortly after that pretty much convinced everyone that the government could not be trusted.

I said you were an apologist for fascists, not a fascist yourself. The red shirt movement is a fascist movement, in its tactics and its goals. I'm assuming you are an outside observer, not a member yourself.

Where exactly did I propose an even more brutal crackdown? Perhaps you're confusing me with someone else. I simply point out that the Red Shirt leaders were interested only in having a confrontation with the government, they made that perfectly clear from the beginning. They provoked the Abhisit government with violence and threats of violence for almost two months, before he asked the military to deal with the situation. The Red Shirt leaders got exactly what they wanted in the end, some martyrs and the burning of Bangkok which they had publicly called for in many speeches from the red shirt stages.

[animatic]

The whole point of the protests was to make the government resign,

so it could be replaced with one that was Thaksin friendly.

Their reasoning was flawed, and their actions amoral,

so for Abhisit to resign because unelected protesters

demand he does soand are not being reasonable

or coming to an agreement is ludicrous falling to

blackmail of the public by a mob.

Oh and before this starts up;

Abhisit WAS elected as MP and as party leader same as Somchai,

both of whom were installed into office by the elected members of the Parliament,

same as Samak and Thaksin too. That is how it works here, a government falls

and the Parliamentarians cone to a deal for a new one, or hold an election.

Both of which happened regularly in Thailands history.

[animatic]

Well there is always an in rushing of newbies all taking Thaksin's side

when he or his shills are making a big push on one matter or another,

so clearly they are trying a Hail Mary Pass to nail Abhisit and Suthep

and move them out of the way, or at least distract them from some other game afoot.

so right on cue here are these new voices, all singing the same song.

Right on schedule, like a damned hampster on a high profit treadmill.

If it wasn't so transparent it might seem astute and professional, but it doesn't.

Just obvious and of little use..

What's obvious?

It's esoteric

Actually not at all,

it is commenting on Perception Management Techniques in use across many Thai forums.

If you don't see it, then read up it is pretty obviously at play.

You just can not make specific accusations here, so generalizations must be used.

Edited August 22, 2012 by animatic

[OzMick]

How can a trial commence while Abhisit is an MP and parliament is in session?

[animatic]

How can a trial commence while Abhisit is an MP and parliament is in session?

It can not.

But he can come to a hearing on issues.

Which is all this is, no matter how some wish to retread the truth to fit ideology

Edited August 22, 2012 by animatic

[KKvampire]

Well here is what i saw that Abhisit vs. Red shirt => marie antoinette vs. Poor and uneducated people. As red shirts were too poor and expected too mych from government..(i mean really? You expect an equal payment when you dont have a degree or experience as those who work really hard in bangkok?)

But abhisit on the other hand...umm dont really have a good publicity stunt for those who lived outside big cities in thailand..(really...if he did a good PR job, he wouldnt go down in flame like this... His plans were too complicated for those uneducated people to understand.) therefore...it is what we see now.

Seriously i dont know what his party thinks but id suggest them to study several cases of politic and public relation... I mean they should study Aarold the governator and Ronald Reagan's cases about having a good PR to win country people's hearts.

What? Incomprehensible .Someone should go back to school to learn how to write , unless they are already in first grade.

[waza]

The whole purpose of the protests was to force the restitutions of Thaksins confiscated funds through massive civil unrest. The plan was to use covert forces to intiate a humanitarian crisis by attacking the military forcing a murderous retalitary response from them. Resulting in an Arab spring scenario, with world opion against the Democrat government and them colapsing, thus leaving the way open for Thaksins allies to take over as stabilising heros. However, Abhisit response was calm, considered and mild, his government stood firm and acted reasonably. Hopefully, this enquiries will show the truth, but I give it little credence as the PTP wouldnt have initiated it if they didnt know the projected outcome.

[metisdead]

Off topic posts and obfuscation posts have been removed.

[Reasonableman]

"eschew obfuscation, espouse elucidation"

[otherstuff1957]

How can a trial commence while Abhisit is an MP and parliament is in session?

Didn't Abhisit agree to waive his parliamentary immunity a few weeks ago? If he didn't, he at least stated that he was willing to face his accusers in court.

[nurofiend]

Well there is always an in rushing of newbies all taking Thaksin's side

when he or his shills are making a big push on one matter or another,

so clearly they are trying a Hail Mary Pass to nail Abhisit and Suthep

and move them out of the way, or at least distract them from some other game afoot.

so right on cue here are these new voices, all singing the same song.

Right on schedule, like a damned hampster on a high profit treadmill.

If it wasn't so transparent it might seem astute and professional, but it doesn't.

Just obvious and of little use..

What's obvious?

It's esoteric

Actually not at all,

it is commenting on Perception Management Techniques in use across many Thai forums.

If you don't see it, then read up it is pretty obviously at play.

You just can not make specific accusations here, so generalizations must be used.

I know what you were getting at...

may I suggest the tinfoil hat? it's quite fashionable.