Farang Men Who Have Healthy Relationships With Thai Men

[dukkha]

Whose counting the years, surely the quality of any relationship is the more essential element ...my parents were together for 45 years and I can tell ya all, it was not 'happy families' for the better part of that time...the ten months with Sam has been a richer and and deeper love than anything I ever observed in other relationships, but then again, as gay men, we so seldom hear of two men who have been together for decades in a healthy relationship..that is why I began this thread with emphasis on 'farang men in healthy realtionships with thai men'...I understand that to be at ease is the opposite of 'disease'...Don't we all wish to be at ease not only with a partner but also with ourselves?

Dukkha

[jdinasia]

LOL .... well it does make some sense to talk a little about time frames ... or I could say I have had LOTS of healthy relationships with Thai men ... one hour-one night at a time!

[dukkha]

JD...You are a cheekee monkee indeed....but liked your comment anyway....need more laffs in all the forums as long as not at the expense of any individuals.. Dukkha

[phayao]

Let me tell you my story in case is useful to anyone.

I started visiting Thailand as a tourist back in 1989. Since my first trip I fell in love with the country and its people. I used to go twice a year for a couple of weeks each time, always with a gay friend. For the first two years I read all the books I could about Thailand and "Thai ways", including Eric Alwyn's and Dennis Segaller's and they were of a great help.

In November 1991, for the first time, I went there on my own; I met X in Chiang Mai, he was a MB working on his first night in a gogo boy bar.

We went to my hotel and the night was a disaster sexually because he was too shy to do much.

I couldn't speak Thai, maybe 20 words, and he couldn't speak English, maybe another 20 words, but we realised that maybe we could try and know each other better. I "off" him for a week, we took the plane and went to Pattaya for a time together.

We had a fantastic time and then... he asked me if we could live together.

I didn't know what to do, everything was suddenly a great decission to make.

We went to BKK, I had no one to turn for advise and every step had to be carefully taken.

He went home to take his things and I was left in the big city wondering what to do.

I have read and heard of dreadful stories with TBF and didn't want to be trapped or loose him.

When my time in Thailand was expiring, he got a passport (which was not easy) and we applied for a tourist visa in my embassy. We were told it was going to take some time to get an answer. I rented an apartment, had him enrolled in an English language school nearby and he got a job in a restaurant. Then, I left.

We phoned each other every day. I couldn't wait more and a month after I flew back, we went to get the visa and we got the NO answer from my embassy.

That was hard but didn't discourage me.

We found out that it was easier to get tourist visas from other countries and we started a pilgrimage from embassy to embassy. We got some and then we flew to four different countries on our way home. The last leg I had him entered my homecountry illegaly.

Here he was, exposed to be detained at anytime, but happily living together.

He attended there another English language school, a trainning school to get a basic career, and started to adapt to "farangland".

When summer arrived, I had to leave to work in a different country for two months. He took the plane back to Thailand (no need for visas though) and he phoned me when he arrived in BKK.

That was the last time I had contact with him: he disappeared.

.......to follow (if you think it is interesting). Many things happened after.

[dukkha]

Phayao, I for one am interested in more of your story..always an insight to hear of others journeys with relationships here in LOS....and JD, warm and fuzzy but positive, ok, I can live eith that and keep posting as I trust we are all learning from each other about farang realationships with thai men whatever shades may unfold... dukkha

[DUMPIE]

Interesting story phayao.

[phayao]

........... (2nd chapter)

After the disappearance of X my life was not the same: I had to work 24/7 under the commitments I had previously adquired and I had no time to fly 14hrs. to Thailand and start searching for him.

I couldn't sleep, I was no hungry for food; everytime the phone rang it was the flashing of a hope. But nothing happened. I rang the hotel from where he called on arriving in Bangkok to be told that he had left on the following morning of his arrival. I kept calling everyday for news until I was told not to phone again.

I was desperate: I had no contacts in Thailand and no time to do anything for myself.

I couldn't figure out what had happened.

We were happy, very happy, or so I thought.

Why that silence?

If his attitude was voluntarily it was a devastating idea, but if it was not it was even more terrifying.

And then I had the chance I needed. After a month of non-stop working there was a break and I didn't hesitate to take the first flight home.

Many ideas wandered my mind during the 3 hrs. flight.

Immediately after arriving, I went home to our bedroom and I searched through his papers.

I took all the envelopes that had a sender's address in Thai and ran to the photocopier.

I copied everyone, cut them and pasted them on to new envelopes. Remember that this happened years before internet, emails and mobile phones.

I took a blank A4 piece of paper, I glued his photo and with a black felt pen I wrote in simple English:"Missing Boy. Please send information to...." and then my phone numbers and my address.

I made ten copies, put a $10 note in each one of the letters and ran to post them. I took a taxi back to the airport and on to the plane back to work.

I waited several days in anguish until one day a letter arrived.

It was not his but from a friend of him I had met briefly in Bangkok.

In very bad English I was told that he was in a hospital due to a "sick heart".

For heavens sake! He was only 22 years old and in perfect condition, how could it happened?

At least I knew he was alive, at least he was on the day that letter was written.

In what condition was he? What has happened?

But, what could I do? I had no name of the hospital, not even I knew in what city he was: Bangkok? Chieng Mai? his province hospital? Where to start? Can he phone me?

At once I wrote back to his friend with these questions and more. Put a bigger dollar note in the envelope and asked him to get an English language interpreter and to phone me as soon as he got the letter regardless of time.

A week after I received a call in the middle of the night, morning in Thailand.

It was his friend with another Thai boy that had better English.

He was still in hospital but in a better condition, I was relieved. Anyway their explanations about what had ocurred to him and how he was taken to hospital were very confusing. They told me that he was ok, although he was not allowed to phone me.

I got the hospital's name but not its address or phone numbers.

I asked him to convey my feelings to my TBF and to let him know that I wanted to go back to Thailand to see him as soon as my tasks were finished. I also asked him to send me by fax my TBF's home address in Thai, so I could send him letters.

I thanked him deeply, in Thai! and hours later when I went to my office there was a fax in the machine with what I had asked. I knew there was someone there that I could trust.

Then I started to look for the hospital address.

After several hours and calls to different institutions I got the address and phone number of this hospital in...Chieng Mai!

When my occupations and visits ended and I had some privacy, I managed to speak to someone in that hospital, although it was late at night in Thailand.

To my amazement: it was a Mental Hospital but my TBF was not there anymore!

....to follow (if you are still interested)

[ProThaiExpat]

Thanks Steve2UK for this "That said, I think I also have to own up to a temporary bout of that ultra "Thainess" which IJWT mentioned. When I first started coming to Thailand, I fell in love with the culture so much that I got more than a bit precious about it for a while. I think of it as comparable to the recently-converted (be it to Christianity or to a stopped-smoker) - irritatingly pious and "Thai-er than thou".

Perhaps you can assist me in "coining" a phrase that would reveal the basis of the attitude that manifests itself in many ways among expats in almost any country.

Example: Thaivisa post about absurd tourists that rely on guide books to get around rather than standing in front of Chiang Mai train station and fending for themselves without any Thai language skills. The point of this post was using a guide book was not "romantic" and caused one to miss the "true Thai experience".

Example: Thaivisa posts that imply that not "living Thai" was in some way "missing the boat".

Add to that, "not having "close personal relationships with Thais", other than your love life "If you don't like something about Thailand, go back home" etc.

Perhaps it is a form of extremeism!!! We see so much of it in religions today, perhaps it is a form of cultural extemeism? Perhaps a form of bigotry where others views or life choices, being different from our own, are decried.

Judgementalism? One relationship is "healthy" while another is not?

Perhaps an essential element of this behavioiur is the use of generalities.

So many posts start out with a general complaint about some behaviour of some expats but then the writer attempts to correct the impolite complaint by adding "Everyone has the right to act the way they want, its just not for me".

I wonder if it is essential for our core ego to view it as "my way" and essential to be broadcasted to others as such rather that broadcasting it as a hypothetical and taking "me out of it".

I know I feel the "slings and arrows" when I read posts attacking the way I choose to live in Thailand, Australia, Hawaii or any other foreign land, whether the poster adds the politically correct exculpatory phrase "Its ok for him, but not for me".

In reality, isn't it rare that we meet anyone who is "in sync" with our views in any great degree and over any breadth? Do our egos requre such support that we long for someone to express agreement for our life choices?

Can anyone do any better to describe this human codition other than to label it "cultural extremeism" (Note the judgemental wording)

Edited February 24, 2006 by ProThaiExpat

[toptuan]

PTE:

Your first paragraph describes "going native" to a "T", but the rest of the post is a lot more inclusive.

For the other stuff...

Cultural elitism?

Cultural snobbery?

In a cultural ivory tower?

Cultural blinders?

My 2 cents...

....to follow (if you are still interested)

Phayao:

I'm waiting on pins and needles...

Edited February 26, 2006 by toptuan

[scubachild]

I think I have a very healthy relationship with my Thai boyfriend. We have been together for just over one year and live together very happily on Koh Samui. I think it helps that he has a regular job with a circle of his own friends. People he can talk to if he does not undersand my strange farang ways

We have several friends who are Thai-Western gay couples in long term relationships (5 years plus). It can and does work - in my experience people in long term successful relationships avoid the gay scene and gay web sites - so their stories and views are never equally represented on web sites such as these

I wish you all good luck in making it work for you!

[baaldog]

Re dating straight guys. I have been seeing regularly a Thai guy who has a girlfriend who I know and have met. We see each other often and have good sex but it seems our hearts are knitted together beyond just the sex. We have travelled to over 5 countries together and have openly discussed his girlfriend and about everything else you could imagine. His mindset is basically he has to have this girl because of his parents expectations, will probably have to marry her but wants me for the rest of his life too. He says he thinks he loves her but knows he loves me. He is an only son so carries incredible family expectations on his shoulders all the time. Its odd I know, I usually don't tell anyone because they say you are crazy. And they may be right. But it works well for us, I do not feel deprived in anyway. We have been together for 3 years, he has never worked in a bar and we are both happy. I love being with him and accept the fact when late night comes he goes home to another. Somehow because he goes home to his girlfriend and not another guy I am ok with that. His hetro masculinity make him all the more attractive to me... Odd I know, but it is working great. Just my experience but I seem to have found what some others are still looking for... No regrets...

[dukkha]

Have been having laptop withdrawal as was up country and in bangers for a total of three weeks and now home in Hua Hin, but not for long, as we are moving to Bangers...I always said could not live there but with on going outpatient visits to bangkok heart hospital have now taken a decent apartment in Yanawa and will move in around June...do appreciate those of you who continue to make intelligent contributions to the thread and do agree about many gay relationships that do not make it to any websites for whatever reasons...Sam now has a back problem so we are a pair of disintegrating lovers physically but can assure yu not emotionally..also agree that if ones thai partner has ongoing employment as well as an independent group of friends this makes for even a more healthy relationship...we will never be thai nor will we ever be able to fathom some of what makes our thai partner tick, but am willing to go forward with a sense of pride and love..please contine to contribute as shared knowledge is indeed a worthwhile experience for us all...dukkha

[ProThaiExpat]

dukkha: Would really like to hear of your heart care experiences, especially the costs attendant thereto. Perhaps an off topic post, a PM or a new thread.

Many of us are self-insured for medical care in Thailand and updates on hospital costs are most informative and of interest. Thank you.

[PeaceBlondie]

Well, this is the best thread to announce that old song title: "My Boyfriend's Back!" I always thought our relationship was a healthy one, and it's so good to have a partner again. I thought I was just bored; I was also lonely. I disparaged long term relationships, and those who desired them, because I didn't have one.

He cooks (I don't) and knows what I can eat; he cleans the house every day (he's a professional manager of hotel housekeepers); he runs errands and drives the motorcycle (which I can't do comfortably in my condition); he talks with me as no casual Thai acquaintance can; the list goes on. His idea of LTR is till death do us part.

Hooray! May you have something equal or better.

[dukkha]

PB, glad to hear you have regained some wisdom in your latter years, best wishes to you both for a long and fruitful journey together dukkha

[Ijustwannateach]

Welcome to the Big Mango, Dukkha!

[dukkha]

Am strangely looking forward to it IJWT...know the down sides and the up sides, health care being the primary reason for the move also think I will find so much more to do there not to say the beach has not been a joy and fortunately have a decent apartimento close to Oz Embassy, Immigration and St Louis Hospital...may come across you ( no pun intended ) and thanks for best wishes... Dukkha

Welcome to the Big Mango, Dukkha!

[dukkha]

I wonder about healthy relationships if one has a differing political view..fortuantely Sam and I have the same political view...it seems to make for more harmony, but am always open to question.. dukkha

[DUMPSTER]

My bf never mentions anything to do with politics. I guess he knows me very well and prefers a more peaceful life. I'm glad really as politics can be very divisive and cause unnecessary suffering. It's ok to have an opinion but is it really necessary to shout about it?

[jdinasia]

I have watched people (my gay friends) move from almost absolute apathy towards anything that wasn't the safe answer <voting trt> to all voting "no vote" in the last 4 months

[dukkha]

Ecouraging snippet JD...of course many gays tread the conservative path..I just find it interesting that two people in a relationship can have opposing world views, does not sound all that too healthy to me, a fair amount of conflict may result, but hey, thais are not into conflict dukkha

[jdinasia]

Adults can always manage it ... <imho> I was a Demo voting Libertarian for years <I'd vote Demo only when I had to do it to vote against the Rep's and my 1st LTR was a green/red guy ... (Socialist with strong commie leanings ... and Green party) He was an absolute freak ... and we had a great time ... the ground rules for adults having a relationship is to give your partner the same freedom as you would your best friend)

[phayao]

........... (2nd chapter)

After the disappearance of X my life was not the same: I had to work 24/7 under the commitments I had previously adquired and I had no time to fly 14hrs. to Thailand and start searching for him.

I couldn't sleep, I was no hungry for food; everytime the phone rang it was the flashing of a hope. But nothing happened. I rang the hotel from where he called on arriving in Bangkok to be told that he had left on the following morning of his arrival. I kept calling everyday for news until I was told not to phone again.

I was desperate: I had no contacts in Thailand and no time to do anything for myself.

I couldn't figure out what had happened.

We were happy, very happy, or so I thought.

Why that silence?

If his attitude was voluntarily it was a devastating idea, but if it was not it was even more terrifying.

And then I had the chance I needed. After a month of non-stop working there was a break and I didn't hesitate to take the first flight home.

Many ideas wandered my mind during the 3 hrs. flight.

Immediately after arriving, I went home to our bedroom and I searched through his papers.

I took all the envelopes that had a sender's address in Thai and ran to the photocopier.

I copied everyone, cut them and pasted them on to new envelopes. Remember that this happened years before internet, emails and mobile phones.

I took a blank A4 piece of paper, I glued his photo and with a black felt pen I wrote in simple English:"Missing Boy. Please send information to...." and then my phone numbers and my address.

I made ten copies, put a $10 note in each one of the letters and ran to post them. I took a taxi back to the airport and on to the plane back to work.

I waited several days in anguish until one day a letter arrived.

It was not his but from a friend of him I had met briefly in Bangkok.

In very bad English I was told that he was in a hospital due to a "sick heart".

For heavens sake! He was only 22 years old and in perfect condition, how could it happened?

At least I knew he was alive, at least he was on the day that letter was written.

In what condition was he? What has happened?

But, what could I do? I had no name of the hospital, not even I knew in what city he was: Bangkok? Chieng Mai? his province hospital? Where to start? Can he phone me?

At once I wrote back to his friend with these questions and more. Put a bigger dollar note in the envelope and asked him to get an English language interpreter and to phone me as soon as he got the letter regardless of time.

A week after I received a call in the middle of the night, morning in Thailand.

It was his friend with another Thai boy that had better English.

He was still in hospital but in a better condition, I was relieved. Anyway their explanations about what had ocurred to him and how he was taken to hospital were very confusing. They told me that he was ok, although he was not allowed to phone me.

I got the hospital's name but not its address or phone numbers.

I asked him to convey my feelings to my TBF and to let him know that I wanted to go back to Thailand to see him as soon as my tasks were finished. I also asked him to send me by fax my TBF's home address in Thai, so I could send him letters.

I thanked him deeply, in Thai! and hours later when I went to my office there was a fax in the machine with what I had asked. I knew there was someone there that I could trust.

Then I started to look for the hospital address.

After several hours and calls to different institutions I got the address and phone number of this hospital in...Chieng Mai!

When my occupations and visits ended and I had some privacy, I managed to speak to someone in that hospital, although it was late at night in Thailand.

To my amazement: it was a Mental Hospital but my TBF was not there anymore!

....to follow (if you are still interested)

[phayao]

chapter 3

.

........... (2nd chapter)

After the disappearance of X my life was not the same.

.............................

.............................

I was told that he was in a hospital due to a "sick heart".

..............................

In what condition was he? What has happened?

.........................

.........................

To my amazement: it was a Mental Hospital but my TBF was not there anymore!

....to follow (if you are still interested)

............(3rd chapter)

I was back to square one: he had disappeared again, but at least I had a contact in Thailand and I had his home address in Thai. So I started sending him a brief letter every day, sometimes I enclosed a photo of me or of the two together, and I kept asking him to call me.

Two weeks after I received the wished call.

He sounded different, even his voice had changed, but it was HIM !

He said he missed me and he wanted me to come to Thailand.

That was a relief, but I still had two weeks of work ahead and I kept sending him a card everyday.

The day I finished my assignment I took a plane home and then within days I was in Don Muang.

He was there to greet me. After "waiying" each other we clenched in a big embrace in the middle of the arrivals hall.

He was physically changed: his head and eyebrows were shaven, he was thinner and his smile was not the same it used to be. He wore a baseball cap and he seemed a bit confused.

Back in the hotel he unfolded his whole story.

Apparently, when he arrived in Bangkok after spending five months together he met his friends in the big city and told them of all his experiences in living in "farangland"; that part was great and they had a good time, but when he contacted his family and he was asked to go home it is when he got "blocked".

So much so that he stopped speaking, eating and he entered into a kind of "dark room".

His friends were obviously worried and they call his brother to come urgently.

After consultations with his parents they decided to have him taken to a mental hospital in Chiang Mai.

There he was given medication and they had him sleeping for two days.

When he realised where he was he asked his family to come and take him away.

After over ten days, the doctors agreed that he had recovered and they let him go.

But his ordeal hadn't finished yet.

His family had decided that he had to expel the "bad spirit" and they took him to a secluded "wat" in the mountains of Lampang, where a venerable abbot was known to "cure" the souls of his monks.

He was ordained (there the shaved head) and he spent over two weeks there.

His talks with the abbot proved to be really revealing and he was told by him that to be gay was ok and that he was doing nothing good to himself staying more time in the "wat".

So then it was when he arrived at his village, he found my letters and photos and he called me.

He told me that he still was a bit confused and we decided to take some time for ourselves away from it all, so we took a plane and landed in Koh Samui for some "honey moon".

Many things happened after, here in Thailand and in "farangland": I can tell you that I was never bored; Thais surprise you in many ways, but I don't wish to bore you with more of our stories.

So, to make it short: that was in September 1992; I had met him in November 1991, so after more than 14 years together, we are getting married in my home country on the 8th of May.

I know of very few gay falang-Thai couples that have endure this length of time.

If we made it many others can, it is not that difficult.

[Guest endure]

Way to go, phayao! I wish the both of you all the very very best for the rest of your lives together. May you be well and happy!

[dukkha]

What a healthy and wonderful story Phayao..this was my intial intention with this thread, present some positives about farang men and thai men...and you have done just that...may you continue to blossom with further love, respect, understanding and compassion..and many thanks for your open post for us all to learn from...keep on keeping on.. dukkha

[dukkha]

Now I have wised up as to how to keep ones thread on the front page, time to post again..phayao...your story cannot be the only example of a healthy relationship between a thai man and a farang man...let me reiterate how refreshing it is to read of your successful story..there are surely others but have yet to take the courage to write about it...for those of us who have entered such relationships the sharing of your experiences gives much hope for optimism rather than the alternative of mistrust, suspicion, inequality, sadness and a level of 'thai bashing' that I find quite misrable to read on many threads in this forum...we all share the human condition regardless of our ethnicity, age, etc...I was always taken by the relationshiop that Kofi Anan and his partner, a european women, have presented to the world at large...who said love has boundaries...as the world seems to spiral into further hate and discontent it seems to me that 'healthy relationshios' need to presented to all in sundry, especially in the gay subculture where often the search for a partner is so often permeated with negatives and hopelessness...let's face it, mixed cultural relationships are not the content of anything considered newsworthy..I wonder how many of our heterosexual friends would be willing to speak of their 'healthy' relationships with thai wimmin...as I am sure they are...not a challenge but more an interest ,but hey, that would be another thread..if we continue to language 'healthy relationships' the better it will be for all of us who have embarked on a sensitive yet real partnership...let me be personal and say 'thank you' Sam for your year of understanding, compassion and love despite my shortcomings..at 59 thought it would never occur and am so happy it has.... Dukkha

[jdinasia]

Cheers!

My biggest pet-peeve about this section of TV is the constant degradation I see in the threads about thai guys ...

but we all already knew that!

[DUMPSTER]

My biggest pet-peeve about this section of TV is the constant degradation I see in the threads about thai guys ...

but we all already knew that!

I think this occurs because it is easier for Thais to accept than it is for Westerners. Westerners who find it difficult to accept become frustrated. They take that frustration out on the Thai people. But that frustration can take place anywhere, we just happen to be in a Thai forum. The same would happen in say, a Moroccan forum. There will always be some who will not accept, get frustrated and take it out on the locals.

Really, Westerners are merely highlighting their own inadequacies when they put down Thais. In other words what they say about Thais is what they are really saying about themselves.

Of course one has to accept those Westerners who do this and not get peeved by it.

Acceptance is the key to life imho

[dukkha]

Acceptance...absolutely agree Dumpster!!

Sadly our gayness will never fully be accepted, too hard for most of the world.. dukkha