Abundance Of Cbr250Rs

[siampreggers]

That's not good.

Though perhaps Richard was talking about a company other than API-Tech when he was on about a product for selected shops that people could use to remap their stock CBR250 PGM-FI system?

Edited August 30, 2012 by siampreggers

[JonnyF]

Nothing wrong with them, I think a lot of people have ridden the older style 250 smokers like the NSR250, TZR250, or maybe even the old inline 4 CBR250 and then they expect that type of performance from the new model. So they buy it and then realize it's not what they thought it was, hence all the low mileage bikes for sale at the 80k mark.

A lot of people who purchased the CBR 250 rode those extremely hard to find 2T beasts? And they were surprised that some 2 ¹/₂ years after the Ninja 250 release, which is rated a whopping 7 BHP more powerful than the CBR, the more economy minded bike wouldn't hang with a smoker that produced huge amounts of HP?

But back to the OP's question. The CBR sold large numbers because it was a bigger bike, in a price bracket that was affordable by the masses (as important as expats think they are we are an insignificant part of the market), and maybe most importantly had the 'right' brandname.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that not enough power may be a factor in some of those sales, but if true the people who thought that most likely purchased a Ninja when they became available and grew bored with the lack of power and upgraded to one of Kawasaki's other excellent bikes. However I doubt that many, for either the Ninja or CBR, upgraded for that reason alone as the 250 class is some 12-17 months' of salaries versus some 30 for the 650 class.

I have came across no stories of mechanical issues with the Ninja and yet some 70% of boardmembers upgraded their bikes in the same timeframe. There's been the posting of the one CBR that was not serviced properly and self destructed. What's the percentage of boardmembers who have upgraded from the CBR? So I don't think reliability has anything to do with the number for sale.

I think that Richard-BKK is (finally) right. Once realisation sets in they can not keep up with the Jones there's going to be a decent amount on the market. Case to prove my point; how many mechanically sound ER-6*/795 are for sale by the locals? Are they upgrading or trying to get out of debt?

Dave, my point was that if you're around the same age as me (38) and you rode bikes in your teenage years as I did, then you may be under the impression that a 250 is a very quick bike, because in the late eighties and early nineties they were. The bikes that I mentioned are just 2 examples of 250cc bikes around that time that were a blast to ride. Then you buy the all new CBR250 in 2011 and realize that times have changed, and not for the better.

The same could of course be said of the Ninja, but without wishing to re-ignite that tired debate (although to be fair the Ninja has been mentioned by the usual suspects in this CBR250 thread already) most of the reviews stated that the Ninja might have a bit more longevity for the new rider than the CBR as the Ninja is a higher revving, higher HP bike. In other words, you would get the same desire to move up to a bigger bike with the Ninja but it might take a bit longer before you felt the need to do so. I have to say the CBR is great value at these second hand prices and there's plenty of choice for the buyer, if I hadn't already ridden one I might be tempted to get one myself.

Have you ridden one yet? What did you think?

[Richard-BKK]

That's not good.

Though perhaps Richard was talking about a company other than API-Tech when he was on about a product for selected shops that people could use to remap their stock CBR250 PGM-FI system?

You quote from a post I made back in April 2011, and then suggest that you do not know about which company I was talking....

That time I said what they said... and I'm sure a few others on this forum hear the same thing. Probably I still have the original papers they give everybody at the press meeting, I think it was all in Thai but I can try to find it if you're interested....

[Richard-BKK]

First, I not really see what the Thailand Board of Investment has to do with the Honda PGM-FI as found on the CBR250R, second, the idea behind the PGM-FI (Programmable Fuel Injection) is that it easily programmable.

Firstly, PGM-FI doesn't stand for Programmable Fuel Injection, it stands for Programmed Fuel Injection

Okay I will rephrase my question, what does the programming of a standard PGM-FI unit has to do with the Thailand Board of Investment?

[thaicbr]

Nothing wrong with them, I think a lot of people have ridden the older style 250 smokers like the NSR250, TZR250, or maybe even the old inline 4 CBR250 and then they expect that type of performance from the new model. So they buy it and then realize it's not what they thought it was, hence all the low mileage bikes for sale at the 80k mark.

A lot of people who purchased the CBR 250 rode those extremely hard to find 2T beasts? And they were surprised that some 2 ¹/₂ years after the Ninja 250 release, which is rated a whopping 7 BHP more powerful than the CBR, the more economy minded bike wouldn't hang with a smoker that produced huge amounts of HP?

But back to the OP's question. The CBR sold large numbers because it was a bigger bike, in a price bracket that was affordable by the masses (as important as expats think they are we are an insignificant part of the market), and maybe most importantly had the 'right' brandname.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that not enough power may be a factor in some of those sales, but if true the people who thought that most likely purchased a Ninja when they became available and grew bored with the lack of power and upgraded to one of Kawasaki's other excellent bikes. However I doubt that many, for either the Ninja or CBR, upgraded for that reason alone as the 250 class is some 12-17 months' of salaries versus some 30 for the 650 class.

I have came across no stories of mechanical issues with the Ninja and yet some 70% of boardmembers upgraded their bikes in the same timeframe. There's been the posting of the one CBR that was not serviced properly and self destructed. What's the percentage of boardmembers who have upgraded from the CBR? So I don't think reliability has anything to do with the number for sale.

I think that Richard-BKK is (finally) right. Once realisation sets in they can not keep up with the Jones there's going to be a decent amount on the market. Case to prove my point; how many mechanically sound ER-6*/795 are for sale by the locals? Are they upgrading or trying to get out of debt?

Dave, my point was that if you're around the same age as me (38) and you rode bikes in your teenage years as I did, then you may be under the impression that a 250 is a very quick bike, because in the late eighties and early nineties they were. The bikes that I mentioned are just 2 examples of 250cc bikes around that time that were a blast to ride. Then you buy the all new CBR250 in 2011 and realize that times have changed, and not for the better.

The same could of course be said of the Ninja, but without wishing to re-ignite that tired debate (although to be fair the Ninja has been mentioned by the usual suspects in this CBR250 thread already) most of the reviews stated that the Ninja might have a bit more longevity for the new rider than the CBR as the Ninja is a higher revving, higher HP bike. In other words, you would get the same desire to move up to a bigger bike with the Ninja but it might take a bit longer before you felt the need to do so. I have to say the CBR is great value at these second hand prices and there's plenty of choice for the buyer, if I hadn't already ridden one I might be tempted to get one myself.

Have you ridden one yet? What did you think?

I know you didn't ask me. But I have ridden all three bikes. The cbr250 4cylinder. The Ninja 250 and I now own a Cbr250 2011. Personally I prefer my current bike. But if Honda had managed to produce a 4 cylinder. Fuel injected bike with a list price of 130.000b then I would have been overjoyed. The reality is doing that is probably impossible. So currently happy with the Cbr

Ps. They need a few thousand kms to loosen up. They feel <deleted> brand new.

sent from my Wellcom A90+

Edited August 30, 2012 by thaicbr

[siampreggers]

That's not good.

Though perhaps Richard was talking about a company other than API-Tech when he was on about a product for selected shops that people could use to remap their stock CBR250 PGM-FI system?

You quote from a post I made back in April 2011, and then suggest that you do not know about which company I was talking....

That time I said what they said... and I'm sure a few others on this forum hear the same thing. Probably I still have the original papers they give everybody at the press meeting, I think it was all in Thai but I can try to find it if you're interested....

Yes please. In the mean time you can just tell us the name of the company....

Okay I will rephrase my question, what does the programming of a standard PGM-FI unit has to do with the Thailand Board of Investment?

You made 'factual' statements about both of them. Ones that are anything but factual.

[loserlazer]

just buy one for 75.000 thb man. You cannot get anything near a cbr250 regarding value/performance/fun factor.

We farang - both for experienced or inexperienced riders - are lucky to have such a nice little bike to help us adjust ourselves to Thai driving environment without a lot of compromise on performance. before getting a bigger bike. What else do you want? We are lucky now as before our only option to do that was a cbr 150 Think about it.

Instead of getting a ninja for 150,000 thb - second hand ones i see nowadays are for 110.000 thb - 120.000 thb - just get a cbr250, throw some good rubber, air filter, a pipe, a chip and shiny aluminium cosmetics - footrests, engine covers crash bars, front shock adjusters etc - and the bike goes nearly the same as a ninja but still for a cheaper price and definitely looks better and modern.

And, i have no problems so far on 17.xxx kms. No nothing really mechanically. just a purring noise from engine which Honda claims it is normal - how man?.

I highly recommend a cbr250 for 70 - 80 k. Just buy it but prepare yourself and budget to upgrade your bike to something bigger within a year!

[Richard-BKK]

That's not good.

Though perhaps Richard was talking about a company other than API-Tech when he was on about a product for selected shops that people could use to remap their stock CBR250 PGM-FI system?

You quote from a post I made back in April 2011, and then suggest that you do not know about which company I was talking....

That time I said what they said... and I'm sure a few others on this forum hear the same thing. Probably I still have the original papers they give everybody at the press meeting, I think it was all in Thai but I can try to find it if you're interested....

Yes please. In the mean time you can just tell us the name of the company....

Okay I will rephrase my question, what does the programming of a standard PGM-FI unit has to do with the Thailand Board of Investment?

You made 'factual' statements about both of them. Ones that are anything but factual.

The only facts are that the PGM-FI unit is programmable, API Tech proved that or not? Not that they had much success without problems

Also it's a fact that at the introduction of the tool for programming the PGM-FI the developers said that “in the near future you would be able to go to selected motorcycle shops to hook up your Honda CBR250R to load a new fuel map...”

For your information the future is still happening, so sit back and relax. And we still waiting for an 'affordable' programming tool for a the Honda PGM-FI. Because not forget that Honda has a programming tool available.., not that it's something an average Thai dealer would be able to use...

[siampreggers]

The only facts are that the PGM-FI unit is programmable, API Tech proved that or not? Not that they had much success without problems

API-Tech were selling aftermarket units, not reprogramming the stock PGM-FI, were they not?

Almost two years after the release of the bike and they still haven't got those right.

Also it's a fact that at the introduction of the tool for programming the PGM-FI the developers said that “in the near future you would be able to go to selected motorcycle shops to hook up your Honda CBR250R to load a new fuel map...”

What developers. What is the name of their company?

You were confident enough to post their company line as your own almost 1 1/2 years ago.

Edited August 30, 2012 by siampreggers

[DerekAbroad]

I think the cc of the CBR250R will be fine. I live in Chiang Mai, not a lot of highway out here compared to BKK. I just don't wanna keep pushing my rented Click up to and past 80kmh when I do go on the bigger roads. And it's tough to stay off to the side and not want to pass the other scooters and some cars. I'd rather keep the 250 here and save for a bigger bike for when I visit home and eventually move back.

I've considered the CB400, but don't think it's worth the increase in price for me.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Thaivisa Connect App

[siampreggers]

^^ btw, this was also mentioned almost 1 1/2 years ago.

"The programming station, which is not needed for every rider will probably cost around 8 to 10,000 THB, the idea is that you as a Honda CBR250R owner go to your dealer and ask to load a new fuel-map for a few hundred THB,"

[wantan]

@DerekAbroad:

You can even think about buying a used CBR250 and save some money. But take special care not to buy from people who spend all their free time with "enhancing their bike". Aftermarket exhaust, fuel maps, changing this and that, ... I am pretty sure that mostly these are the bikes with problems. Buy a used CBR which NEVER EVER has been modified in any way and which has been serviced and you will be fine i guess.

[Richard-BKK]

The only facts are that the PGM-FI unit is programmable, API Tech proved that or not? Not that they had much success without problems

API-Tech were selling aftermarket units, not reprogramming the stock PGM-FI, were they not?

Almost two years after the release of the bike and they still haven't got those right.

Also it's a fact that at the introduction of the tool for programming the PGM-FI the developers said that “in the near future you would be able to go to selected motorcycle shops to hook up your Honda CBR250R to load a new fuel map...”

What developers. What is the name of their company?

You were confident enough to post their company line as your own almost 1 1/2 years ago.

Not really the API Tech unit doesn't replace the need for the orignal ECU, the additional box is more to switch maps.

I have no direct relation with API Tech, in 2011, around March or early April I attended a press meeting and I reported on this forum exactly what I was told. A quick check on the current status of API Tech, they say they have a device that should work... so try it out and report back...

Anyway I cannot see why your questions about the Honda fuel injection system is relative to the current discussion... If you want to discuss the Honda PGM-FI I would suggest you start a new forum thread.

Edited August 30, 2012 by Richard-BKK

[dave_boo]

Nothing wrong with them, I think a lot of people have ridden the older style 250 smokers like the NSR250, TZR250, or maybe even the old inline 4 CBR250 and then they expect that type of performance from the new model. So they buy it and then realize it's not what they thought it was, hence all the low mileage bikes for sale at the 80k mark.

A lot of people who purchased the CBR 250 rode those extremely hard to find 2T beasts? And they were surprised that some 2 ¹/₂ years after the Ninja 250 release, which is rated a whopping 7 BHP more powerful than the CBR, the more economy minded bike wouldn't hang with a smoker that produced huge amounts of HP?

But back to the OP's question. The CBR sold large numbers because it was a bigger bike, in a price bracket that was affordable by the masses (as important as expats think they are we are an insignificant part of the market), and maybe most importantly had the 'right' brandname.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that not enough power may be a factor in some of those sales, but if true the people who thought that most likely purchased a Ninja when they became available and grew bored with the lack of power and upgraded to one of Kawasaki's other excellent bikes. However I doubt that many, for either the Ninja or CBR, upgraded for that reason alone as the 250 class is some 12-17 months' of salaries versus some 30 for the 650 class.

I have came across no stories of mechanical issues with the Ninja and yet some 70% of boardmembers upgraded their bikes in the same timeframe. There's been the posting of the one CBR that was not serviced properly and self destructed. What's the percentage of boardmembers who have upgraded from the CBR? So I don't think reliability has anything to do with the number for sale.

I think that Richard-BKK is (finally) right. Once realisation sets in they can not keep up with the Jones there's going to be a decent amount on the market. Case to prove my point; how many mechanically sound ER-6*/795 are for sale by the locals? Are they upgrading or trying to get out of debt?

Dave, my point was that if you're around the same age as me (38) and you rode bikes in your teenage years as I did, then you may be under the impression that a 250 is a very quick bike, because in the late eighties and early nineties they were. The bikes that I mentioned are just 2 examples of 250cc bikes around that time that were a blast to ride. Then you buy the all new CBR250 in 2011 and realize that times have changed, and not for the better.

The same could of course be said of the Ninja, but without wishing to re-ignite that tired debate (although to be fair the Ninja has been mentioned by the usual suspects in this CBR250 thread already) most of the reviews stated that the Ninja might have a bit more longevity for the new rider than the CBR as the Ninja is a higher revving, higher HP bike. In other words, you would get the same desire to move up to a bigger bike with the Ninja but it might take a bit longer before you felt the need to do so. I have to say the CBR is great value at these second hand prices and there's plenty of choice for the buyer, if I hadn't already ridden one I might be tempted to get one myself.

Have you ridden one yet? What did you think?

I'm not sure my couple of summers on a moped make me qualified to compare the bikes of yesteryear to today's except for objective measurements. After I got my full license it was cars/trucks all the time. I do know that the Ninja 250 my friend rode was much more powerful than what I was used to; however that was tempered by the small block (and my Camaro's transplanted 454) experience that taught me torque was king.

I think we all look through rose tinted glasses; yes there were bikes from all manufacturers during that time frame that were devilishly quick; they would most probably hold their own against current 650 class in races. A big if though is that most of these bikes were also stupid expensive. For instance the CBR 250RR, from recollection, was nearly the cost of the 600/1000 at the time. On top of that, in most countries they were grey market imports. Meaning no real dealer support.

I still stand by my assertion; the people who were looking for bigger bikes had already bought a Ninja. And then fairly promptly upgraded to one of the fantastic value ER-6* bikes. The remaining either were looking for more value (if you want to read cheap charlies...ok), were not in the market, or were not happy with the prospect of owning a Kawasaki for whatever reason.

The first group of those three either are poor stewards of money (meaning there's a high probability of them getting too far into debt and needing to sell the bike before owning it outright) or are simply frugal which means they only want a 250cc class but could not justify the cost of the Kawasaki. If they fall into the second subgroup, than there's a good chance they're not looking into upgrading their bikes as even a used ER-6* costs more than a Ninjette.

The second group is the biggest argument against my thoughts. If they were not previously in the market, than it could mean they are new to biking, new to the Kingdom, or came into money. The 'were not in the market' neatly fits your case; however without a fairly even distribution of CBR's and Ninja's sold to this group it is a bit difficult to say which is going to provide their owner with a longer period of sanctification before the upgrade itch hits. This is why I couched my reply when discussing the Ninja/CBR upgrade cycles as I assume there were a lot more people with disposable income who bought the Ninja than the CBR which came later and could thus financially easily upgrade. I also do not think it's fair to even discuss the Ninja/CBR upgrade ratio for the CBR's first year of sales as the 'newness' throws off the potential buyers who may have gone with a different model had both been on the market for the same amount of time.

The final group, who would not own a Kawasaki, also may not be upgrading as the only upgrades beyond Kawasaki cost crazy money for the locals. The FZ8 and 795 are both over 400K, right? And those are the cheapest I know of...

I unfortunately have not had a chance to get on the CBR 250 yet; a ride planned for the end of August fell through. I however did get to ride a 600 Steed and now I know why people poke fun of those who ride choppers.

[BirdsandBooze]

I have also heard that Kawasaki has a 500 in the works. It's supposed to be an inline 4. Perhaps to compete directly with Honda's offering.

Yes..... yes..... yes