We Are All Buddhist.

[nidieunimaitre]

Looking at the original post and the topic title, I think the poster's theory is that since westerners he knows tended to become more Buddhist the longer they spent in Thailand, all of us living here ultimately become Buddhists by a process of osmosis.

There is a hole in that theory, though. The average farang who moves to Thailand and lives in a family setting inevitably gets caught up in the kind of Buddhist practices that promote social cohesion and finds that joining in makes him fit in better. His wife probably gives him an amulet for protection and he feels obliged to wear it. If the family do a merit-making trip, he goes along. And so on. But this does not mean he has "converted" to Buddhism, or even that he knows the teachings.

I think it's unlikely any westerner would become a Buddhist without actually reading the teachings and testing some of them. That's been my experience. I spent my first 20 years in Thailand without having the slightest interest in Buddhism.

I like the amulet part of your post.

Maybe we are not that far apart in our thinking?

[nidieunimaitre]

I don't understand.

Why do you always direct your attention to "religion"?

Because religion is what i see all around me.

And that is what the OP was referring to --- I think --- where is the OP?

[StreetCowboy]

Looking at the original post and the topic title, I think the poster's theory is that since westerners he knows tended to become more Buddhist the longer they spent in Thailand, all of us living here ultimately become Buddhists by a process of osmosis.

There is a hole in that theory, though. The average farang who moves to Thailand and lives in a family setting inevitably gets caught up in the kind of Buddhist practices that promote social cohesion and finds that joining in makes him fit in better. His wife probably gives him an amulet for protection and he feels obliged to wear it. If the family do a merit-making trip, he goes along. And so on. But this does not mean he has "converted" to Buddhism, or even that he knows the teachings.

I think it's unlikely any westerner would become a Buddhist without actually reading the teachings and testing some of them. That's been my experience. I spent my first 20 years in Thailand without having the slightest interest in Buddhism.

No-one in my family ever ut any pressure on me to adopt buddhist pactices, or even thai shamanistic practices. I think you stereoptype your fellow posters to the detriment of your argument.

SC

[camerata]

I didn't say anyone was pressured into Buddhist practices. Rather, they might adopt some practices because it makes them feel that they fit in with the culture around them - as opposed to actually "converting," which was what the OP seemed to assume.

I don't see many posters agreeing with the OP that they converted to Buddhism because they were in Thailand a long time.

[camerata]

I like the amulet part of your post.

Maybe we are not that far apart in our thinking?

I think you'll find that the Buddhist regulars in the forum think of "Buddhism" as being the core teachings of the Buddha, which can be found in the scriptures, not the relatively small subset of practices you see the average Thai involved in. So when a topic like this one gets moved here from the General Forum, everyone is talking at cross purposes.

As far as I'm concerned, one "converts" to (or adopts) Buddhism, or a major tradition of Buddhism (Theravada, Mahayana, etc), not "Thai Buddhism." Thai Buddhism in general is pretty much the same as Lao Buddhism or Burmese Buddhism - or Sri Lankan Buddhism.

[hookedondhamma]

I like the amulet part of your post.

Maybe we are not that far apart in our thinking?

I think you'll find that the Buddhist regulars in the forum think of "Buddhism" as being the core teachings of the Buddha, which can be found in the scriptures, not the relatively small subset of practices you see the average Thai involved in. So when a topic like this one gets moved here from the General Forum, everyone is talking at cross purposes.

As far as I'm concerned, one "converts" to (or adopts) Buddhism, or a major tradition of Buddhism (Theravada, Mahayana, etc), not "Thai Buddhism." Thai Buddhism in general is pretty much the same as Lao Buddhism or Burmese Buddhism - or Sri Lankan Buddhism.

Exactly. Well-said.

[rics21]

Seems like most of the posts ain't about the question???

Sent from my XT910 using Thaivisa Connect App

[nidieunimaitre]

Seems like most of the posts ain't about the question???

Sent from my XT910 using Thaivisa Connect App

Perhaps the OP could contribute to this thread?

[rockyysdt]

Because religion is what i see all around me.

And that is what the OP was referring to --- I think --- where is the OP?

When I formulated my responses, I was thinking of you rather than everyone around you.

I was thinking that it doesn't really matter what others choose to do.

It's a shame however that what others do (inappropriate practice) can affect ones perception of a worthy practice.

What is important is what you do with your life, without the influence of others ("Thai Buddhism").

Out of interest, can I ask, do you follow/believe in a religion?

Can you see a destinction between Buddhism practiced as a religion/superstition, and the practice of the eightfold path to imprive ones life?

Edited September 4, 2012 by rockyysdt

[nidieunimaitre]

Because religion is what i see all around me.

And that is what the OP was referring to --- I think --- where is the OP?

When I formulated my responses, I was thinking of you rather than everyone around you.

I was thinking that it doesn't really matter what others choose to do.

It's a shame however that what others do (inappropriate practice) can affect ones perception of a worthy practice.

What is important is what you do with your life, without the influence of others ("Thai Buddhism").

Out of interest, can I ask, do you follow/believe in a religion?

Can you see a destinction between Buddhism practiced as a religion/superstition, and the practice of the eightfold path to imprive ones life?

I do not believe in any god.

I do not believe in anyone that calls himself a servant of a god, since at the very best they are lying to themselves.

I try to believe in humans.

I try to have a happy life - without messing it up for others, since they want to live a happy life too.

Occasionally, i go out of my way to help others having a happy life.

Often, i get upset when people mess it up for others.

And of course i can see the difference between buddhism as a religion/supersticion and buddhism as you practise it.

Clearly, your interpretation of buddhism makes you happy, and that is a good thing.

But is there not a lot of selfishness in that? It is normal to think of oneself first, but should there not be a little bit of altruism sometimes?

Are you not to a certain extend telling the poor to be poor and happy? To concentrate only on spiritual things?

Hehe next the OP will comment that this is not an answer to his question - which is true.

So to come back to topic:

1. i do not see farangs embracing thai buddhism.

2. i do not see many farangs embracing your interpretation of buddhism.

3. could the OP perhaps inform us where he has seen any such things?

[Jawnie]

Because religion is what i see all around me.

And that is what the OP was referring to --- I think --- where is the OP?

When I formulated my responses, I was thinking of you rather than everyone around you.

I was thinking that it doesn't really matter what others choose to do.

It's a shame however that what others do (inappropriate practice) can affect ones perception of a worthy practice.

What is important is what you do with your life, without the influence of others ("Thai Buddhism").

Out of interest, can I ask, do you follow/believe in a religion?

Can you see a destinction between Buddhism practiced as a religion/superstition, and the practice of the eightfold path to imprive ones life?

I do not believe in any god.

I do not believe in anyone that calls himself a servant of a god, since at the very best they are lying to themselves.

I try to believe in humans.

I try to have a happy life - without messing it up for others, since they want to live a happy life too.

Occasionally, i go out of my way to help others having a happy life.

Often, i get upset when people mess it up for others.

And of course i can see the difference between buddhism as a religion/supersticion and buddhism as you practise it.

Clearly, your interpretation of buddhism makes you happy, and that is a good thing.

But is there not a lot of selfishness in that? It is normal to think of oneself first, but should there not be a little bit of altruism sometimes?

Are you not to a certain extend telling the poor to be poor and happy? To concentrate only on spiritual things?

Hehe next the OP will comment that this is not an answer to his question - which is true.

So to come back to topic:

1. i do not see farangs embracing thai buddhism.

2. i do not see many farangs embracing your interpretation of buddhism.

3. could the OP perhaps inform us where he has seen any such things?

I think His Holiness the Dalai Lama would agree with you on many of the things you say. He said, to paraphrase, that "our purpose in life is to help others and if we are not able to do that, at least don't harm them." He's also said his religion is "kindness."

However, for those who are included to the path of spiritual development or mental training, those are available, too. In the Theravada, though, individual liberation is stressed, and compassion and alturism on behalf of others are not. This is why Theravada is referred to as the "Lesser School". This also why Theravada/Thai Buddism is not very appealing...most westerners are more inclined toward active religious expression. The Mahayana is vastly broader in scope than Theravada and practitioners postpone their individual liberation in order to serve all beings until all beings are finally liberated. That's why it is called the "Greater School." (I'm sure I'll get some howling here from the Theravadins over this.)

In any case, the Mahayana also includes spiritual practice in order to bring forth the great compassion necessary to maintain the idea of working for the benefit of all sentient beings. It is this ideal which is lacking from Theravada practice and, if I may say, from your own secular beliefs. The power of this ideal, ie., the Bodhisattva vow, is unique to Buddhism. I think this is why the Mahayana forms of Buddhism are more attractive to westerners.

Edited September 5, 2012 by Jawnie

[rockyysdt]

I try to have a happy life - without messing it up for others, since they want to live a happy life too.

I think this is one of the key points the Buddha taught.

The Buddha said that the traditional means of achieving happiness leads us to the opposite.

We are left we feelings of emptiness and dissatisfaction.

He called it Dukkha.

What makes you have a happy life?

Is it possible that "try" is suggestive that you're not succeeding?

And of course i can see the difference between buddhism as a religion/supersticion and buddhism as you practise it.

Clearly, your interpretation of buddhism makes you happy, and that is a good thing.

But is there not a lot of selfishness in that? It is normal to think of oneself first, but should there not be a little bit of altruism sometimes?

Are you not to a certain extend telling the poor to be poor and happy? To concentrate only on spiritual things?

I don't think the Buddha ever said you should be poor.

The Buddha taught, when you perform your work, no matter what it is, you should do it well.

Wealthy, poor, or in between, the Buddha taught that one can escape Dukkha (disatisfactoriness) through the practice of the eightfold path.

There is nothing wrong with sustaining ones life monetarily, but in time, through practice, you'll find what is important to you will probably change.

A work colleague of mine and his wife are building their dream home.

A McMansion of epic proportions.

They juggle several jobs and a business in order to generate enough money and have very little time left in their lives to enjoy their relationship.

This house is huge, with several bathrooms, many reception rooms and bedrooms and a triple garage

It will cost of fortune in energy to heat/cool and they will never use many of the rooms or the space available.

They are driven by this goal of owning such as house and they think it will make them very happy.

Perhaps if he was a little less selfish, he could build a slightly smaller mansion and with the savings direct his compassion to people less fortunate.

The reason why he doesn't is because he lacks awareness (of the plight of others).

If you practice concentration/awareness, isn't this more likely to make you aware of others (feelings, situation, condition) and therefore make you less selfish?

Why do you suggest practicing Buddhism is selfish?

In the "brahmavihāras" the Buddha taught the four immeasurables.

That is to practice having the mental states of loving-kindness or benevolence (metta), compassion (karuna), empathetic joy (mudita), and, equanimity (upeksa).

Far from making one selfish, this practice has the power of reducing ones ego, which we often attach ourselves to, and which becomes the source of much of our troubles.

Meditation and awareness practice on the body, breath, mind, feelings, and the external, with karuna, mudita, metta, and upeksa will produce selfless, rather than selfish attributes.

Karuna is not only the hope that a person's sufferings will diminish, but to feel anothers suffering as if it was yours.

How can this be selfish?

I just wondered why you suggest that what I illustrate is my interpretation of Buddhism?

Edited September 5, 2012 by rockyysdt

[nidieunimaitre]

I admire rockyysdt's interpretation of buddhism.

I agree with everything he says.

Except, I do not agree with the last sentence, since it suggests that all or most or even many buddhists think and act likewise.

The vast majority of buddhists that i have met, act exactly the same as christians, or other religions.

No spiritual values, no compassion, but addiction to material possessions and rituals.

Therefore, dear OP, i can see no reason why farangs would change beliefs.

But yes, it would be a good thing if more people would embrace rockyysdt's (or similar) beliefs.

[StreetCowboy]

I expect most buddhists adhere as rigorously to the precepts of their religion as I do to mine, viz. scarcely at all. My adherance or otherwise has no bearing on the principles of my religion

SC

[rockyysdt]

The vast majority of buddhists that i have met, act exactly the same as christians, or other religions.

No spiritual values, no compassion, but addiction to material possessions and rituals.

I'm mindful that most suffer from some kind of negative attribute (conditioning).

I'm also mindful that, even though I describe noble teachings, I'm also far from perfect.

Even when immersed in greed, aversion and delusion, if one can regularly practice the eightfold path, there is the potential to grow and rise above the shackles of attachment.

This is why it's worthwhile to change.

Two work colleagues (one a Team Leader) are at each others throats, and constantly have very aggressive verbal fights witnessed by all.

Due to their egos, each one is blind to their own flaws and can only see wrong in the other.

I spoke to one of them in privacy about the situation.

He indicated that the other was a bully and had to pay, and that he was happy with the way he was conducting himself.

I tried to explain that if he had issues with the other there were appropriate forums to address them, but brawling wasn't the way.

I tried to explain that the tree which allows its branches to bend in the wind survives.

That this was not giving in, nor accepting the others position, but merely observing without attachment.

He said it wasn't his style.

I followed this by explaining the gift the other was offering him.

The gift of being able to observe himself, given such situations.

The gift which, with awareness, would allow him to know himself and from this have an opportunity to change.

Edited September 5, 2012 by rockyysdt

[rockyysdt]

i do not see many farangs embracing your interpretation of buddhism.

Most/many won't embrace the practice of the eightfold path, because it requires effort to perform.

Most/many have an aversion to effort.

[maxme]

Looking at this thread and weeping. Some posters here have already decided which religion/life philosophy is the right and therefor the only one. I'm sorry but you are buying into your on twisted dogma.

If we were to go down that path then we could ask ourselves which religion do the developed countries have? It's just as dumb as portraying YOUR religion is the only one.

People choose religion (some cases they don't) because what they feel is suited for them... the way to progress, the principals for which upon we construct a society etc etc.

Just because I chose one religion and choose to believe in it doesn't necesseraly mean it's the ONE religion but because me myself thought it suited me and that's how I want to live my life. Now if others choose differently I welcome them and we can all share and draw experiences from one another.

Thoughts of the mind and being able to choose what want to believe in are the only concepts of freedom we have left, don't mock others for their beliefs because if you do that , I'm pretty certain you are not standing by your religion but an contempful attempt to twist the truth so it suits you.

That said and going back to the OPs post, I think when you meet a new religion or philosophy in this case you can always find parallell beliefs or structure of thinking for lack of better terms.

I think I'm fairly good with animals and I do want them to be treated gently and with respect but that concept expanded as my wife explained to me about buddhist thinking and now I don't even squat flies or mosquitos becuase they are living beings too , no matter how annoying they are. Not that I didn't realize this before but sometimes we need to open up more if we want to understand the aspects of life.

I don't think people will adopt to another religion because they stayed long enough but I do think people who want to be better make the conclusion that in every society and religion there is good and bad and that we can actually learn from one another, no matter what our original belief or thinking was.

I believe taking a pragmatic approach towards certain things such as religion doesn't necessearly make you recant your beliefs but makes you grow instead as a person with an intellect.

[rockyysdt]

Looking at this thread and weeping. Some posters here have already decided which religion/life philosophy is the right and therefor the only one. I'm sorry but you are buying into your on twisted dogma.

If we were to go down that path then we could ask ourselves which religion do the developed countries have? It's just as dumb as portraying YOUR religion is the only one.

People choose religion (some cases they don't) because what they feel is suited for them... the way to progress, the principals for which upon we construct a society etc etc.

Just because I chose one religion and choose to believe in it doesn't necesseraly mean it's the ONE religion but because me myself thought it suited me and that's how I want to live my life. Now if others choose differently I welcome them and we can all share and draw experiences from one another.

Thoughts of the mind and being able to choose what want to believe in are the only concepts of freedom we have left, don't mock others for their beliefs because if you do that , I'm pretty certain you are not standing by your religion but an contempful attempt to twist the truth so it suits you.

That said and going back to the OPs post, I think when you meet a new religion or philosophy in this case you can always find parallell beliefs or structure of thinking for lack of better terms.

I think I'm fairly good with animals and I do want them to be treated gently and with respect but that concept expanded as my wife explained to me about buddhist thinking and now I don't even squat flies or mosquitos becuase they are living beings too , no matter how annoying they are. Not that I didn't realize this before but sometimes we need to open up more if we want to understand the aspects of life.

I don't think people will adopt to another religion because they stayed long enough but I do think people who want to be better make the conclusion that in every society and religion there is good and bad and that we can actually learn from one another, no matter what our original belief or thinking was.

I believe taking a pragmatic approach towards certain things such as religion doesn't necessearly make you recant your beliefs but makes you grow instead as a person with an intellect.

I suppose what you need to ask yourself is:

Why do you follow the religion you have chosen?

What does this religion give you?

I personally have moved away from religions which require 100% faith and require death to learn whether you're on the money.

Isn't Buddhism more a way of life, with practices which allow the unfolding of awareness and personal experience?

For this reason I don't call it a religion but a system by which one can enrich ones life (no need to die).

Beware of religions which offer immortality.

This is the biggest carrot, and appeals to most egos.

Edited September 17, 2012 by rockyysdt

[maxme]

I think any belief can be dangerous in the hands of uneducated and people with no self esteem. Saying that religion is cause of the misery is just putting the blame.

You have found Buddhism and I congrat you but you do it the wrong way, you do it like the inflexible atheists and these people always struggle to prove people wrong and I see no point in that as there are other aspects of life that are more important.

I don't take the religion too serious, I just follow a set of principals that helps me understand build my own confidence. Now I'm not a church going fellow as there are other POVs on Christianity but I'm sure you are aware of that.

I'm not a catholic and I don't follow it to the letter. The interpretation is there if you wish to find it, same with Buddhism.

Now Buddha got enlightened by experiencing the outside world, meaning he saw things he have never seen in his secluded and isolated society neither wish to see nor want to see. It would do you good to actually travel around and learn from people than sitting here spitting out conjecture.

If we have to go that far as you wish it to go then Buddhism has become a religion as it not only has reincarnation but demons and angels too. This is much up to interpretation since a thousand years ago what appears to be logic to us was magic to them and thus we have to make our own conclusions out of it. So no religion or philosophy walks the straight path as you want to put it yet we continue practicing them because of tradition and its adopted into our cultures.

If you have come to believe that the religion or philosophy you believe is the only one then you have misinterpreted the only text you have read. We base our lives on a set of principals and grow from there that is what it's about.

[Xangsamhua]

If you have come to believe that the religion or philosophy you believe is the only one then you have misinterpreted the only text you have read. We base our lives on a set of principals and grow from there that is what it's about.

Skimming the thread it looks to me like there's a wide range of viewpoints in a fairly meandering discussion. You seem to have the idea that everyone is dogmatic about their understanding of Buddhism. That's not the impression I get.

You're welcome to put your point of view here, as are any who post in good faith, but I don't think you need to feel pity for any perceived naivety or deludedness of posters here. Those of us who post often to this forum are aware of our different points of view and respect these differences. There's no need for you to worry

[maxme]

If you have come to believe that the religion or philosophy you believe is the only one then you have misinterpreted the only text you have read. We base our lives on a set of principals and grow from there that is what it's about.

Skimming the thread it looks to me like there's a wide range of viewpoints in a fairly meandering discussion. You seem to have the idea that everyone is dogmatic about their understanding of Buddhism. That's not the impression I get.

You're welcome to put your point of view here, as are any who post in good faith, but I don't think you need to feel pity for any perceived naivety or deludedness of posters here. Those of us who post often to this forum are aware of our different points of view and respect these differences. There's no need for you to worry

So what is your point because since you skimmed you obviously missed the points I made about the former poster NOT about Buddhism or the other posters and it seems more like you have a beef, because I sure don't have.

Maybe you should actually read through instead of skimming and you too will have a better understanding.

Edited September 17, 2012 by maxme

[beautifulthailand99]

[bdw]

If a Falahng is following the everyday Thai's version of Buddhism, IMHO they're on the wrong track.

The typical Thai prays for wealth, while Buddhism is about shedding your materialism and getting enlightened.

[Xangsamhua]

If you have come to believe that the religion or philosophy you believe is the only one then you have misinterpreted the only text you have read. We base our lives on a set of principals and grow from there that is what it's about.

Skimming the thread it looks to me like there's a wide range of viewpoints in a fairly meandering discussion. You seem to have the idea that everyone is dogmatic about their understanding of Buddhism. That's not the impression I get.

You're welcome to put your point of view here, as are any who post in good faith, but I don't think you need to feel pity for any perceived naivety or deludedness of posters here. Those of us who post often to this forum are aware of our different points of view and respect these differences. There's no need for you to worry

So what is your point because since you skimmed you obviously missed the points I made about the former poster NOT about Buddhism or the other posters and it seems more like you have a beef, because I sure don't have.

Maybe you should actually read through instead of skimming and you too will have a better understanding.

I apologize if I misunderstood who you were referring to. However, your statement as follows (post #77) suggests that you were referring to the posters in general:

Looking at this thread and weeping. Some posters here have already decided which religion/life philosophy is the right and therefor the only one. I'm sorry but you are buying into your on twisted dogma.

If we were to go down that path then we could ask ourselves which religion do the developed countries have? It's just as dumb as portraying YOUR religion is the only one.

I read "you are buying into your own twisted dogma" as a reference to "this thread" and "some posters", i.e. tarring a lot of people with the one brush.

Now you're speaking of "the former poster". Which one? Rockyysdt? If so, he can speak for himself, but I think your language is unfair and discourteous.

But as I said, if I've misinterpreted your intentions, I withdraw my comments.

[maxme]

My bad I should have specified. I can tell I have the outmost respect for the buddhism and the people who practice it right. I even go with the wife and my friends to the temple and pray not because I'm a necessarily a believer but out of respect. So I apologize for my bad phrasing