No One In Thailand Wants To Listen To The Hard Truth

[hgma]

Thai truth is simple .....IMAGINE !

[Roadman]

]Maybe in Cowboyland it is right to kill your own people,it was 2010 Bkk not 1850 Wyoming with John Wayn,easy to use rubber bullets,teargas,water canons,and and and,u r not to different from red shirts white washers.If u would follow the report and punish everybody who was involved,would be big step ahead.If Abisit gave the order to use rea bullets,then he should get his punishment,if he does not know who gave the order,Abisit still should get the punishment,because he was the government leader,and the leader is responsible for everything.If red.black blue pink or whatever colours was involved,then they should get their punishment too,it is a bit easy to blame only red,on both sides people got killed

Why 1850? Let's take an armed riot in Wyoming, or even New York, in 2010. when police/army/ security start getting killed with military weapons, what do you expect would happen?

".......,easy to use rubber bullets,teargas,water canons....." against AK-47s and M-79s? Easy for you to say, it's not your butt on the firing line.

That is another problem,the region where i come from,civilians don't carry any guns,therefore no police or protesters get killed,anyway if 100 of 100000 have a gun,means not u hv the right to hold ur guns in the crowd and shoot everybody

Where I come also if something like this commeneced the police would be in doing the job that is expected of them. Not taking their 30 pieces of silver from an overseas convicted criminal to turn a blind eye and / or assist the Thaksin terrorist attack.

[asiawatcher]

Look at some summaries...

... report asserts "misjudgment" by Abhisit Govt" - How? They delayed as long as they could until the bamboo barricades and burning tyres started, gave more than enough time, offered to step aside - which then the REDS did an about face - or have the Thai's forgotten the Government of compromise?

I do think the Abhisit government misjudged things. They waited far too long before moving against the reds. The blocking of roads and the setting up of stages on the roads would not be tolerated by any western government. Such action would have been dealt with quickly and decisively and the site cleared within 24 hours. The same should have happened here.

... confirmation of the existence of men in black - denied by the REDS there was armed militia/mercenaries - yet from the shootings, how many were actually killed by army issued ordnance? Never been revealed!!

Would it prove anything? A lot of army ordnance went missing during those days, so someone being killed with army ordnance would prove nothing.

... the seizure of the core business district was peaceful - 24 hour screaming speakers brainwashing the RED faithful, barricades, speeches quoting "Burn Bangkok" - yes all very peaceful.

Peaceful? The shutting down of businesses and roads is peaceful, especially as it went on for two months? And what about the rights of those who lived and/or worked in the area?

... wrong for the Abhisit Govt to enlist military assistance - when sensible negotiation compromise fails and police fail to protect the public, and aid and abet the seizure, did the Govt have a choice?

Given that the police were AWOL during this entire event, just how do the report writers think the government should have handled the situitation? Without the police, the government had no choice but to call in the military.

I would also like to add that I think the military were very restrained. If they had not been, Thaksin would have had the slaughter he was looking for.

So whilst these reports clearly are trying to lay blame on both sides and condemn no-one - arguably some bent facts - the truth is still there to acknowledge by Thai's if they pull their collective heads out of their ..... REDS and no one else started the problem and deaths were the result. Irrespective of coloured shirts and the stupidity of Thai politics, that segment is clear cut. And should the other colours now come out at a future date whilst the PTP are in power - pray tell, what means of concilliation would they use to quell the protests? By all means PTP, lead by example and instead of denying the report, how would you have handled it differently?

Unfortunately, the reds only want their version of the truth. And that would be that they were good, peaceful, unarmed victims fighting for true democracy, and that the Abhisit government and the army were evil and wanted only to crush the reds by use of excessive force.

Time to face the truth. Reconsiliation is never going to happen.

Would have to agree - the only 'truth' to be preened from this is - there will never be reconcilliation.

[Jay Sata]

]Maybe in Cowboyland it is right to kill your own people,it was 2010 Bkk not 1850 Wyoming with John Wayn,easy to use rubber bullets,teargas,water canons,and and and,u r not to different from red shirts white washers.If u would follow the report and punish everybody who was involved,would be big step ahead.If Abisit gave the order to use rea bullets,then he should get his punishment,if he does not know who gave the order,Abisit still should get the punishment,because he was the government leader,and the leader is responsible for everything.If red.black blue pink or whatever colours was involved,then they should get their punishment too,it is a bit easy to blame only red,on both sides people got killed

Why 1850? Let's take an armed riot in Wyoming, or even New York, in 2010. when police/army/ security start getting killed with military weapons, what do you expect would happen?

".......,easy to use rubber bullets,teargas,water canons....." against AK-47s and M-79s? Easy for you to say, it's not your butt on the firing line.

That is another problem,the region where i come from,civilians don't carry any guns,therefore no police or protesters get killed,anyway if 100 of 100000 have a gun,means not u hv the right to hold ur guns in the crowd and shoot everybody

You only have to look at the USA to see what happens when guns are freely available.

The truth is it's their country to run how they want. In Thailand there are so many poor misguided western pensioners eking out what remains of their life and having to report or jump through immigration rules to be allowed to stay. I see them everywhere here in Khon Kaen.

What sort of life have they left to try and survive teaching English to kids that don't wan't to learn.

[McMagus]

I often get the feeling from reading posts here that most people believe that Thaksin was the bad guy and the then Abhisit govt. were the good guys. This is manifest in words like .. 'months of constant provocation', 'the illegal occupation of the central business district', etc., etc. Yes, this kind of protest would never have been condoned in the west, but, in the west, generally, governments with a popular mandate are always allowed to run their term. Here, it has been shown over and over again that this is not the case. Had popularly elected governments in France, Britain, Australia etc. been routinely thrown out by an elitist group, then most people would have been a tad pissed off. So firstly, I don't think we can use the same measuring stick to compare western democracies and Thai style democracy; it isn't. For a start, here, not all members are elected in a proportional voting system, a large number are 'appointed'. So for a start there is no true democracy here, calling it such is a lie. Secondly, Thailand is a feudal society where loyalties to the 'boss' far outweighs any loyalty to the nation as a whole or loyalty to a concept such as democracy, rule of law etc. So whilst Thaksin certainly lined his pockets, he also did some good things ... paid off the national debt, opened up the banking system. Years of oppression by Thai elites opened a pandoras box of their own making and inadvertently promoted a system which allowed people like Thaksin to take advantage for his own needs. Interestingly, in my inexperience, Thais do not differentiate as to how a person becomes rich. Even if you have made your fortune by highly immoral means, it makes no difference to Thais, you still have 'face' and can command respect. This in itself is a form of bastardisation of truth, it therefore is a very small step for whomsoever is in power to ignore anything that they don't agree with. The longer I stay here, the more and more cynical I have become that Thailand as a nation and Thais as a people have the capacity to raise themselves above sandpit politics and rule for the betterment of all Thais... it is a bit depressing really. So much talent going to waste, so many lost opportunities. And there endeth the sermon :-)

[jonb1942]

After living here for six years I beleave that is the way that things are done here. Mipen--lie.

[Colabamumbai]

Sad commentary, but most of us living here in Thailand are used to it. Unfortunately I cannot see it changing. Who was it Jutaporn? ordering the Red Shirts to burn Bangkok, replayed again on T.V. last night. He does not seem to be in jail.

The longer I stay here the more corrupt my thinking becomes.

[happysanook]

The truth is, truth is a alien (foreign) concept to many Thais.

I am in the midst of a week-long hassle trying to get a visa renewed. I have all the documents, but there is one tiny little thing that they say is needed. In other words, 6 pieces of good ID aren't enough for bureaucrats to believe I am who I am. They want a 7th or an 8th piece of verification, and even the bureaucrats have been tussling among themselves (in my case), some saying it's ok, others saying "no, instructions from Bangkok insist upon ........" It's a bureaucratic nightmare, and it stems from the Thai proclivitiy to never believe anything a stranger says. Their culture is built on (and hobbled by) distrust. All the houses in Thailand have walls and/or barbed wire around them (you see little of that in more trusting societies in the west). Similar for their shops with their ubiquitous metal rolling walls. Ebay never worked in Thailand, because no Thai trusts a stranger to send a product that's paid for. Same reason checks aren't used for everyday purchases - because no one trusts anyone they don't already know.

It's has nothing to do with "not believing strangers", and everything to do with having power over you and making you run around, and to some extent very much enjoying your frustration, as it makes themselves feel so much more sabai and of high-face.

[ScouseTommy]

I think there is a consensus running through all the posts on a thread like this, for the first time since 2010! I think everyone can agree Politicians as a whole in this country should be in Jail for their blatant disregard for the public North, East, South and West! I also think everyone can agree reconciliation is a dream, but will NEVER happen in Thailand in the foreseeable future. Its a shame that Farang with absolutely no say/voting power etc can see this clearly but the Thai people cant Its really difficult to be optimistic about Thailand and its politics. It is completely impossible to see this report acknowledged in any significant way; as their would be too many powerful people having to stand up in court, and account for their activities and decisions. Time for a large beer I think

[unanimosity]

Look at some summaries...

... report asserts "misjudgment" by Abhisit Govt" - How? They delayed as long as they could until the bamboo barricades and burning tyres started, gave more than enough time, offered to step aside - which then the REDS did an about face - or have the Thai's forgotten the Government of compromise?

... confirmation of the existence of men in black - denied by the REDS there was armed militia/mercenaries - yet from the shootings, how many were actually killed by army issued ordnance? Never been revealed!!

... the seizure of the core business district was peaceful - 24 hour screaming speakers brainwashing the RED faithful, barricades, speeches quoting "Burn Bangkok" - yes all very peaceful.

... wrong for the Abhisit Govt to enlist military assistance - when sensible negotiation compromise fails and police fail to protect the public, and aid and abet the seizure, did the Govt have a choice?

So whilst these reports clearly are trying to lay blame on both sides and condemn no-one - arguably some bent facts - the truth is still there to acknowledge by Thai's if they pull their collective heads out of their ..... REDS and no one else started the problem and deaths were the result. Irrespective of coloured shirts and the stupidity of Thai politics, that segment is clear cut. And should the other colours now come out at a future date whilst the PTP are in power - pray tell, what means of concilliation would they use to quell the protests? By all means PTP, lead by example and instead of denying the report, how would you have handled it differently?

You sound as though delay were some kind of virtue. How would you imagine that? You let a mob enter a city knowing they plan to occupy and disrupt, what do you expect? Once they are in place the authorities become the aggressors, the villains. Had the authorities intercepted and blocked their advance the authorities would have been defenders instead of aggressors and we wouldn't be having this discussion and 90+ people would still be alive and a thousand more would be uninjured. Fundamentals of ineptitude and bad judgment aside, once the athorities treated the protesters like lazy inept parents of spoilled children and then finally decided it was time for the kids to go home, there are myriad humane methods for crowd dispersal of which turning a national army on its own citizens with lethal firearms is not one. Period. End of story.

[SICHONSTEVE]

The hard truth is impossible to find amongst all the bull shit and lies.

They are getting nowhere fast!!

[whybother]

I often get the feeling from reading posts here that most people believe that Thaksin was the bad guy and the then Abhisit govt. were the good guys. This is manifest in words like .. 'months of constant provocation', 'the illegal occupation of the central business district', etc., etc. Yes, this kind of protest would never have been condoned in the west, but, in the west, generally, governments with a popular mandate are always allowed to run their term. Here, it has been shown over and over again that this is not the case. Had popularly elected governments in France, Britain, Australia etc. been routinely thrown out by an elitist group, then most people would have been a tad pissed off. So firstly, I don't think we can use the same measuring stick to compare western democracies and Thai style democracy; it isn't. For a start, here, not all members are elected in a proportional voting system, a large number are 'appointed'. So for a start there is no true democracy here, calling it such is a lie. Secondly, Thailand is a feudal society where loyalties to the 'boss' far outweighs any loyalty to the nation as a whole or loyalty to a concept such as democracy, rule of law etc. So whilst Thaksin certainly lined his pockets, he also did some good things ... paid off the national debt, opened up the banking system. Years of oppression by Thai elites opened a pandoras box of their own making and inadvertently promoted a system which allowed people like Thaksin to take advantage for his own needs. Interestingly, in my inexperience, Thais do not differentiate as to how a person becomes rich. Even if you have made your fortune by highly immoral means, it makes no difference to Thais, you still have 'face' and can command respect. This in itself is a form of bastardisation of truth, it therefore is a very small step for whomsoever is in power to ignore anything that they don't agree with. The longer I stay here, the more and more cynical I have become that Thailand as a nation and Thais as a people have the capacity to raise themselves above sandpit politics and rule for the betterment of all Thais... it is a bit depressing really. So much talent going to waste, so many lost opportunities. And there endeth the sermon :-)

A popularly elected government was dumped in Aus in 1975. I don't remember there being armed protests in Aus following that.

Sent from my HTC phone.

[rixalex]

You sound as though delay were some kind of virtue. How would you imagine that? You let a mob enter a city knowing they plan to occupy and disrupt, what do you expect?

Perhaps they expected that when they offered them what they claimed to be demanding, or something pretty darn close to it (ie elections in 6 months), that they would say thank you and all file off back home. And this is precisely what would have happened, had it not been for the intervention of our square faced friend in Dubai.

[Samedeepwaterasyou]

Probably the smartest thread title ever published on Thai Visa.

[I Like Thai]

Truth hurts.

You know what it can be like sometimes when you try to call a spade a spade here. When you tell your wife or girlfriend something and they put their fingers in their ears singing 'la la la la'.

If Thailand can start accepting the truth and learns to not take itself so seriously, then progress can be made. There are many ways of judging a culture and society. The best way for me is to see if a culture or society is able to make fun of itself and laugh.

Why is it always the Western "truth" that is always used to judge other cultures and societies.

Why does it always fail in every country that the West tries to impose it on ?

[fisherd3]

Well as usual, everyone identifies the lies (corruption), everyone seems to concur that it is the Thai cultural norm, then rant and rave based on their own Farang perception of things.

What an illogical waste of time!

[rixalex]

Fundamentals of ineptitude and bad judgment aside, once the athorities treated the protesters like lazy inept parents of spoilled children and then finally decided it was time for the kids to go home, there are myriad humane methods for crowd dispersal of which turning a national army on its own citizens with lethal firearms is not one. Period. End of story.

This wasn't crowd dispersal. This was dispersal of a mob within which heavily armed militants roamed taking pot shots at people and buildings. In the West, such a group would be dealt with in a very similar manner, it's just that it wouldn't be soldiers burdened with the task, it would be a section of the police. And nobody would be questioning why the police were turning its arms on its own people.

Doesn't matter whether they are your own people, or whether they are lets say Arab terrorists, if they are shooting at authorities, they will be dealt harshly anywhere in the world.

[McMagus]

I often get the feeling from reading posts here that most people believe that Thaksin was the bad guy and the then Abhisit govt. were the good guys. This is manifest in words like .. 'months of constant provocation', 'the illegal occupation of the central business district', etc., etc. Yes, this kind of protest would never have been condoned in the west, but, in the west, generally, governments with a popular mandate are always allowed to run their term. Here, it has been shown over and over again that this is not the case. Had popularly elected governments in France, Britain, Australia etc. been routinely thrown out by an elitist group, then most people would have been a tad pissed off. So firstly, I don't think we can use the same measuring stick to compare western democracies and Thai style democracy; it isn't. For a start, here, not all members are elected in a proportional voting system, a large number are 'appointed'. So for a start there is no true democracy here, calling it such is a lie. Secondly, Thailand is a feudal society where loyalties to the 'boss' far outweighs any loyalty to the nation as a whole or loyalty to a concept such as democracy, rule of law etc. So whilst Thaksin certainly lined his pockets, he also did some good things ... paid off the national debt, opened up the banking system. Years of oppression by Thai elites opened a pandoras box of their own making and inadvertently promoted a system which allowed people like Thaksin to take advantage for his own needs. Interestingly, in my inexperience, Thais do not differentiate as to how a person becomes rich. Even if you have made your fortune by highly immoral means, it makes no difference to Thais, you still have 'face' and can command respect. This in itself is a form of bastardisation of truth, it therefore is a very small step for whomsoever is in power to ignore anything that they don't agree with. The longer I stay here, the more and more cynical I have become that Thailand as a nation and Thais as a people have the capacity to raise themselves above sandpit politics and rule for the betterment of all Thais... it is a bit depressing really. So much talent going to waste, so many lost opportunities. And there endeth the sermon :-)

A popularly elected government was dumped in Aus in 1975. I don't remember there being armed protests in Aus following that.

Sent from my HTC phone.

Yep, that it was, I was there and remember it well, but the difference is.. a) It happened once in our political history and most importantly the mechanism used to get rid of the Whitlam government was constitutional, not a military coup orchestrated by the elite. I take your point but not really comparable.

[I Like Thai]

Unfortunately, the reds only want their version of the truth. And that would be that they were good, peaceful, unarmed victims fighting for true democracy, and that the Abhisit government and the army were evil and wanted only to crush the reds by use of excessive force.

Time to face the truth. Reconsiliation is never going to happen.

Would have to agree - the only 'truth' to be preened from this is - there will never be reconcilliation.

I think there is a consensus running through all the posts on a thread like this, for the first time since 2010! I think everyone can agree Politicians as a whole in this country should be in Jail for their blatant disregard for the public North, East, South and West! I also think everyone can agree reconciliation is a dream, but will NEVER happen in Thailand in the foreseeable future. Its a shame that Farang with absolutely no say/voting power etc can see this clearly but the Thai people cant Its really difficult to be optimistic about Thailand and its politics. It is completely impossible to see this report acknowledged in any significant way; as their would be too many powerful people having to stand up in court, and account for their activities and decisions. Time for a large beer I think

Never is a very long time.

Things change, people can amend their views. All it takes is for both sides in any conflict to realise that they are never 100% right and neither is the other side 100% wrong. This is a start

All any conflict need to be resolved is a start by both sides to try and stop it. Firstly by looking at themselves, rather than always looking at the other side and pointing the finger

[123thaibourbon]

Max Weber contrived some theories about capitalism in the absence of populist democracies. Hitler promulgated eugenics. The class/caste system is no longer germane anywhere. PM Thaksin was given the bum's rush and this was a horrid display of Thai politics. So he is rich, get over it. There are many very wealthy families globally who exert much more influence. Allow people to vote and let things happen. The US CIA has interfered tooo much already in other places. People = everyone of age, any education level, creed or persuasion. Other ASEAN emerging economies & working class will gladly fill the void Thailand continues to create for itself. Blame Game, Name Fame, Never Fear, Noosphere, Horsefly Writers on Rodeo Riders..

[I Like Thai]

Fundamentals of ineptitude and bad judgment aside, once the athorities treated the protesters like lazy inept parents of spoilled children and then finally decided it was time for the kids to go home, there are myriad humane methods for crowd dispersal of which turning a national army on its own citizens with lethal firearms is not one. Period. End of story.

This wasn't crowd dispersal. This was dispersal of a mob within which heavily armed militants roamed taking pot shots at people and buildings. In the West, such a group would be dealt with in a very similar manner, it's just that it wouldn't be soldiers burdened with the task, it would be a section of the police. And nobody would be questioning why the police were turning its arms on its own people.

Doesn't matter whether they are your own people, or whether they are lets say Arab terrorists, if they are shooting at authorities, they will be dealt harshly anywhere in the world.

Something like this you mean, Anyone see any similarities

[lizardtongue]

The Thai's have taken lying past an art form, they have actually developed it into a language!

[KeyserSoze01]

A sitting, ruling government no longer needs the truth on their side to "manage" public opinion. All that is necessary is power and leverage over the media and news to make the truth appear to be whatever they choose. The truth is often far more bizarre that the story that is spun to cover up the motives for an action that was planned for a certain outcome, such as blaming another group for the their own actions / in-actions and being supported by the media. Case in point is the recent attack on the US Embassy in Benghazi on 9/11. The world media is reporting that the US State Dept had 3 days prior knowledge that attacks would take place on US facilities in the ME, while the US media hasn't touched the story with a barge pole, with the State Dept denying any prior knowledge. So who do you believe and just what is the truth?

The truth? You can't handle the truth.

[HOOD Robin]

The truth is, truth is a alien (foreign) concept to many Thais.

I am in the midst of a week-long hassle trying to get a visa renewed. I have all the documents, but there is one tiny little thing that they say is needed. In other words, 6 pieces of good ID aren't enough for bureaucrats to believe I am who I am. They want a 7th or an 8th piece of verification, and even the bureaucrats have been tussling among themselves (in my case), some saying it's ok, others saying "no, instructions from Bangkok insist upon ........" It's a bureaucratic nightmare, and it stems from the Thai proclivitiy to never believe anything a stranger says. Their culture is built on (and hobbled by) distrust. All the houses in Thailand have walls and/or barbed wire around them (you see little of that in more trusting societies in the west). Similar for their shops with their ubiquitous metal rolling walls. Ebay never worked in Thailand, because no Thai trusts a stranger to send a product that's paid for. Same reason checks aren't used for everyday purchases - because no one trusts anyone they don't already know.

This is the TRUTH, nothing else than the.... TRUTH !!!!

[whybother]

A popularly elected government was dumped in Aus in 1975. I don't remember there being armed protests in Aus following that.

Sent from my HTC phone.

Yep, that it was, I was there and remember it well, but the difference is.. a) It happened once in our political history and most importantly the mechanism used to get rid of the Whitlam government was constitutional, not a military coup orchestrated by the elite. I take your point but not really comparable.

The coup didn't depose an elected government and no one came to power through the coup.

When the PPP was disbanded by the courts, the PTP were then in government but needed to elect a new PM. They could have called an election, but they chose to go to parliament to elect a new PM, and they lost and Abhisit was elected.

Sent from my HTC phone.

[MaxLee]

Come on, what did you expect, this is Thailand, where the rich and powerful want to do whatever they want without getting punished by law.

Confronting the truth is "a loss of face", do you think they're gonna give in to that?

Once in power always an a*******$$$$,

And if anybody complains, they just wanna shoot people dead, and nobody can compensate for the victim's people.

[I Like Thai]

Come on, what did you expect, this is everywhere in the world, where the rich and powerful want to do whatever they want without getting punished by law.

Confronting the truth is "a loss of Profit", do you think they're gonna give in to that?

Once in power always an a*******$$$$,

And if anybody complains, they just wanna shoot people dead, and nobody can compensate for the victim's people.

Fixed it for you

[Noistar]

Look at some summaries...

... report asserts "misjudgment" by Abhisit Govt" - How? They delayed as long as they could until the bamboo barricades and burning tyres started, gave more than enough time, offered to step aside - which then the REDS did an about face - or have the Thai's forgotten the Government of compromise?

... confirmation of the existence of men in black - denied by the REDS there was armed militia/mercenaries - yet from the shootings, how many were actually killed by army issued ordnance? Never been revealed!!

... the seizure of the core business district was peaceful - 24 hour screaming speakers brainwashing the RED faithful, barricades, speeches quoting "Burn Bangkok" - yes all very peaceful.

... wrong for the Abhisit Govt to enlist military assistance - when sensible negotiation compromise fails and police fail to protect the public, and aid and abet the seizure, did the Govt have a choice?

So whilst these reports clearly are trying to lay blame on both sides and condemn no-one - arguably some bent facts - the truth is still there to acknowledge by Thai's if they pull their collective heads out of their ..... REDS and no one else started the problem and deaths were the result. Irrespective of coloured shirts and the stupidity of Thai politics, that segment is clear cut. And should the other colours now come out at a future date whilst the PTP are in power - pray tell, what means of concilliation would they use to quell the protests? By all means PTP, lead by example and instead of denying the report, how would you have handled it differently?

Maybe in Cowboyland it is right to kill your own people,it was 2010 Bkk not 1850 Wyoming with John Wayn,easy to use rubber bullets,teargas,water canons,and and and,u r not to different from red shirts white washers.If u would follow the report and punish everybody who was involved,would be big step ahead.If Abisit gave the order to use rea bullets,then he should get his punishment,if he does not know who gave the order,Abisit still should get the punishment,because he was the government leader,and the leader is responsible for everything.If red.black blue pink or whatever colours was involved,then they should get their punishment too,it is a bit easy to blame only red,on both sides people got killed

Would be nice to see Yingluck responsible for anything!

Abhisit is in Thailand, is ready to defend his actions in 2010 and recognise the result of a court of law.

Unlike somebody else.

If Abhisit is guilty of a crime, it's political anyway so why are the Reds losing any sleep over it?

Oh yes, one rule for.....and another for......

[eriksen]

Hey all, u think, she thinks... it does not change jack shit and u know it...

enjoy what u see or go home...

[TheWalkingMan]

There is just one iron rule in some countries "Logic is an enemy and truth is a menace."