High Tone Words

[greenwanderer108]

Getting along in my personal studies of the วรรณยุกต์ rules...and now the first barrier that none of my Thai companions seem to be able to answer yet. Perhaps some of you lingual nerds can clear this up...

As for the high tone words (can only think of a few of the top of my head...please add more if you can) what are all the rules for spelling them?

As far as the วรรณยุกต์ is concerned, the only way to really form a high tone word is if the ตัวนำ is อักษรกลาง (ก จ ด ต ฎ ฏ บ ป อ) and you add the ไม้ตรี (อ็)

However from the few high tone words I can think of (there aren't many are there?) many of them have a ตัวนำ from the other two classes, อักษรสูง and อักษรต่ำ

High tone words (with middle class initial consanant) :

โป๊ (nud_e/pornographic)

โต๊ะ (table)

แป๊ด (nickname, sound of horn)

โป๊ะ (lamp shade, or floating platform)

เจ๊ (older sister...chinese root word)

จ๊ะ (intimate particle)

เจ๊ก (something you shouldn't call a chinese person )

เจ๊ง (to go bad/close down as in a business)

can't really think of any from ด บ or อ but please be my guest if you know. From the words above, they are all by rule (as stated above) pronounced with the high tone except for some reason, จ๊ะ is supposed to be accute tone...not sure exactly why but perhaps someone can clear that up..

As for the other high tone words I could think of

High tone words (with high class initial consanant):

ฉัน (I)

surely there are more than this..my vocabulary stinks!

High tone words (with low class initial consanant)

ม้า (horse)

น้า (aunt/uncle)

ค้า (dealer/dealing)

ชั้น (floor/level)

Please if you think of more, contribute

So anyway...this is where the confusion kicks in. The word ฉัน is pronounced with high tone but is obviously spelt with the rising tone (which is how it works out anyway the millions of times it's used in thai songs)

As far as the high tone words with low class initial consanants, I haven't found the rules yet that would suggest consistancy. The basic วรรณยุกต์ rules say that when ไม้โท is used with the ตัวนำ being from อักษรต่ำ, then an accute tone is formed

i.e.

น้อง (younger sibling/kin)

นี้ (this/here)

ร้อง (cry/sing)

ฟ้า (sky)

เช้า (morning)

แม้ (even)

ล้าน (million)

So then, why is a high tone formed in the words given previously (ม้า น้า ค้า ชั้น)What's the rule? Am I missing something????

Props to the one who can shed light on this linguistic mystery

[Richard W]

So then, why is a high tone formed in the words given previously (ม้า น้า ค้า ชั้น)What's the rule? Am I missing something????

The short answer is that 'high tone' and 'acute tone' are two names for the same tone!

Actually there are two varieties - a level high tone on dead syllables and a high rising-falling tone on live syllables. A dead syllable with a low consonant and a short vowel has the high tone unless there is a tone mark indicating otherwise, e.g. รัก has a high tone while น่ะ has a falling tone.

Finally, many words with 'grammatical' function that are written as having a rising tone have a high tone when unstressed - thus ผม, ฉัน and เขา.

[meadish_sweetball]

High tone words (with high class initial consanant):

ฉัน (I)

surely there are more than this..my vocabulary stinks!

Remember there are three consonant classes, and that (simplified, but will do for this post so as not to confuse) the HIGH CLASS consonants sound the same as the LOW CLASS ones.

Since you can successfully produce the high tone in writing by using LOW CLASS and MIDDLE CLASS initial consonants only (with the help of tone mark mai thoo for live syllables with a low class initial... or tone mark mai trii for dead syllables with a middle class initial), there are few words that take the high tone and are spelled with an initial HIGH CLASS consonant.

Hope that makes sense.

-----------------------------

Attacking the issue of tones from this end seems more complicated than necessary.

If you instead learn a table by heart, which indicates what tones you get from different combinations (the important variables for tone formation are the following) it will probably get easier:

- Initial consonant class (tua nam)

- Vowel length (sara san/sara yaao)

- Dead / live syllable (kham dtaay/kham bpen)

- Tone mark (wannayut)

Finally, many words with 'grammatical' function that are written as having a rising tone have a high tone when unstressed - thus ผม, ฉัน and เขา.

It is probably best as seeing this group as an exception to the tone formation rules, and learn which words there are. As a side note, in personal letters and dialogue, at least ฉัน and เขา are often written as ชั้น and เค้า. I am a little surprised at seeing ผม listed among these as well, although when I say it silently to myself in a sentence I can see why!

[greenwanderer108]

So then, why is a high tone formed in the words given previously (ม้า น้า ค้า ชั้น)What's the rule? Am I missing something????

The short answer is that 'high tone' and 'acute tone' are two names for the same tone!

Actually there are two varieties - a level high tone on dead syllables and a high rising-falling tone on live syllables. A dead syllable with a low consonant and a short vowel has the high tone unless there is a tone mark indicating otherwise, e.g. รัก has a high tone while น่ะ has a falling tone.

Finally, many words with 'grammatical' function that are written as having a rising tone have a high tone when unstressed - thus ผม, ฉัน and เขา.

So in other words, there is no formal rules for which spelling the two varieties of high tone...Thus I must remember on a memory basis which high tone words are pronounced with the level high and the rising falling high?

In other words there is no spelling rules explaining why

ฟ้า (sky) and ล้า (to lag/be tired) are pronounced with the accute/rising falling variety of the high tone

while

น้า ม้า ค้า are pronounced with the level high tone variety

Being that all of them are have (same) live sylb. ตัวนำ is อักษรต่ำ and use ไม้โท. Heck the only explanation I can find is that ฟ words with ไมโท never will get the level high tone. There is only like four or five such words in my dictionary of ฟ so maybe these ones will always be the accute rising falling variety

???

So how can I know for certain (without asking another Thai to demonstrate) which variety of pronunciation these words fall under :

ลี้ (to hide)

ลี้ม (to taste/experience)

ลิ้น (tongue)

เล้ง (slang--to bawl at)

เล้า (a coop/pin)

โล้ (to rock/swing)

ว้าย (OH NO!)

ไว้ (keep)

แว้ง (to swerve)

เว้า (to speak...not sure if same as ภาษาลาว as I always thought that was ว่าว)

เว้ย (Ahoy!)

[sabaijai]

So in other words, there is no formal rules for which spelling the two varieties of high tone...Thus I must remember on a memory basis which high tone words are pronounced with the level high and the rising falling high?

There is, Richard W outlined it above. Most Thais who teach Thai don't admit there's a difference though, and teach it as one tone.

ฟ้า (sky) and ล้า (to lag/be tired) are pronounced with the accute/rising falling variety of the high tone

while

น้า ม้า ค้า are pronounced with the level high tone variety

Is that true? I haven't noticed it.

So how can I know for certain (without asking another Thai to demonstrate) which variety of pronunciation these words fall under :

ลี้ (to hide)

ลี้ม (to taste/experience)

ลิ้น (tongue)

เล้ง (slang--to bawl at)

เล้า (a coop/pin)

โล้ (to rock/swing)

ว้าย (OH NO!)

ไว้ (keep)

แว้ง (to swerve)

เว้า (to speak...not sure if same as ภาษาลาว as I always thought that was ว่าว)

เว้ย (Ahoy!)

Another thing to keep in mind is the difference between 'canonical' pronunciation - the way the tones are taught in Thaland - and the actual typical use of tones in everyday conversation. That may account for a lot of the difference you're hearing.

Thai words with a (canonical) rising tone and short vowels usually go to high tone when followed by another word (of almost any tone), a phenomenon known as 'tone sandhi' (covered in another thread here somewhere, if you want to search for it).

Thai cartoons (the printed variety that is) are a great place to quickly see all the differences between the way tones are taught and the way they're more typically spoken. Same goes for vowels lengthened or shortened. The cartoonists usually spell the words the way they actually sound, rather than the way they're spelt in a dictionary. Common examples include:

tone sandhi:

(ดี)ชั้น instead of (ดี)ฉัน

เค๊า instead of เขา

vowel lengthening:

ช่าย instead of ใช่

I can't think of others right now off the top of my head, but if you buy a Thai comic book or even check the cartoons in a Matichon Weekly you'll find plenty more.