Has Anyone Converted A Shophouse Conversion In Bkk To Residential?

[DLock]

I have a 2-bedroom condo in BKK and considering a 3 bedroom condo, but the jump from 2 bedroom to 3 bedroom is considerable.

Instead, I have been considering buying an old shophouse close to my office, gutting it and converting it to a fresh residential property over multiple levels.

Has anyone done it, or considered it and given up?

I'd be interested in how easy it was and the challenges they faced.

[USNret]

I've been thinking about exactly the same thing. I'd be interested in what you find out. BTW, my father-in-law does condo refurbs so I know I could get good work done if I ever choose to go this route.

[xen]

Many Thais live on the floors above their shophouses . I have often thought about how much better it would be than an appartment. Maybe you can start a trend.

[Khun Jean]

The first thing to consider is that you are unable to own it.

....

....

Still interested?

[DLock]

The first thing to consider is that you are unable to own it.

....

....

Still interested?

Really? I was not aware of this at all.

No one has ever raised this on Thai Visa.

[Asiantravel]

The first thing to consider is that you are unable to own it.

....

....

Still interested?

Really? I was not aware of this at all.

No one has ever raised this on Thai Visa.

The fact that foreigners are not allowed to own land in their own name in Thailand has been mentioned and discussed very many times.

If you are married to a Thai lady you can get around this but it is more problematic if you are a single guy.

But you could still achieve what you want if you can find a shophouse owner willing to negotiate terms for a long lease over the property

[DLock]

The first thing to consider is that you are unable to own it.

....

....

Still interested?

Really? I was not aware of this at all.

No one has ever raised this on Thai Visa.

The fact that foreigners are not allowed to own land in their own name in Thailand has been mentioned and discussed very many times.

If you are married to a Thai lady you can get around this but it is more problematic if you are a single guy.

But you could still achieve what you want if you can find a shophouse owner willing to negotiate terms for a long lease over the property

With respect, I was being sarcastic.

I have several companies that own several properties, some mine, some investments.

Some properties are long term lease, others are owned by my companies.

Just to avoid confusion, my companies are set up as 51% Thai owned, with me as Director and preferential shares and controlling voting rights. I also have signed, blank share transfers for the Thai shareholders as backup. The Thai shareholders all have loan agreements for their share value. They are not nominees.

Can we just assume that we all understand the Thai laws and various methods for property "ownership"?

[DLock]

There are a few websites listing shophouses for sale.

http://www.shophousesbangkok.com for example.

But it's usually when I am driving and see a phone number on an interesting looking shophouse that gets me interested.

I am only starting to look more seriously in the area that I currently live and work (Bang Rak). There seem to be quite a few for sale. Some are surprisingly expensive for what they are. If I find the right one, I will "buy" it.

Places like Singapore embraced shophouses as residential or trendy offices years ago. I'm just surprised Bangkok has not seen a developer buy up a row of older shophouses and convert to trendy townhouses...

[davejones]

There are a few websites listing shophouses for sale.

http://www.shophousesbangkok.com for example.

But it's usually when I am driving and see a phone number on an interesting looking shophouse that gets me interested.

I am only starting to look more seriously in the area that I currently live and work (Bang Rak). There seem to be quite a few for sale. Some are surprisingly expensive for what they are. If I find the right one, I will "buy" it.

Places like Singapore embraced shophouses as residential or trendy offices years ago. I'm just surprised Bangkok has not seen a developer buy up a row of older shophouses and convert to trendy townhouses...

This also surprises me, but usually there is nowhere to park, so Thai people wouldn't generally be interested in them. Nearly everyone here has cars and use them all the time, especially the people with enough money to be able to afford a townhouse. Also, you could make more money as a developer buy building a condo instead of renovating the townhouses. It's a real shame, as Bangkok would look fantastic if all those all townhouses were renovated.

[heatherm]

I can't say converted, we are converting a 4 story shop house into a residence. We have a small workshop on the first floor, guest room on the second floor, and we are on the third floor. We moved from a small studio to this huge place in July. It's an incredible amount of room. With money it could be quite something. The only problem I could see is the amount of stairs to climb if you are older. Parking the car isn't as much of an issue. Our neighbors with nice cars park them inside on the first floor. Can't beat the price, it's half what we were paying for our condo. The condo was pretty nice, though.

Sent from my GT-P1010 using Thaivisa Connect App

[Khun Jean]

The first thing to consider is that you are unable to own it.

....

....

Still interested?

Really? I was not aware of this at all.

No one has ever raised this on Thai Visa.

The fact that foreigners are not allowed to own land in their own name in Thailand has been mentioned and discussed very many times.

If you are married to a Thai lady you can get around this but it is more problematic if you are a single guy.

But you could still achieve what you want if you can find a shophouse owner willing to negotiate terms for a long lease over the property

With respect, I was being sarcastic.

I have several companies that own several properties, some mine, some investments.

Some properties are long term lease, others are owned by my companies.

Just to avoid confusion, my companies are set up as 51% Thai owned, with me as Director and preferential shares and controlling voting rights. I also have signed, blank share transfers for the Thai shareholders as backup. The Thai shareholders all have loan agreements for their share value. They are not nominees.

Can we just assume that we all understand the Thai laws and various methods for property "ownership"?

Indeed there is no confusion, they actually are nominees, even if you think they are not. Having signed blank shares is already proof of a criminal offence because the only way you would get those is by coersion (yeah, i know your lawyer says it is ok, blabla bla...., some teamoney bla bla bla...)

You are walking around with a big growing target on your back.

One so called shareholder (would those be 'trusted' employees of the lawyers office) has to open his mouth and your whole house of cards comes tumbling down.

Is that your advice, as an example to copy?

Still, for every other purpose the question asked if instead of buying a bigger condo or go for a 'shophouse' the fact remains that you can not own a shophouse freehold.

Edited November 1, 2012 by Khun Jean

[USNret]

Is there any money to be made in refurbishing & reselling shop houses? This is the process we call flipping in America; I'm not sure if that's a common term elsewhere. The idea is you only own the property for a few months, fix it up & resell quickly. I see the link above for shop houses for sale & they look pretty nice. Among my wife's family, we have expertise in banking, remodeling & sales. I trust them all and would have no problem keeping the property in their name.

However, the aforementioned in-laws are unanimous that one cannot make money doing this. They said given the choice of buying a nicely refurbed unit at a premium price, or an old rundown place at a discount, Thai will always buy the cheaper place & do the refurb themselves. This is opposite of Americans who generally will pay a premium to buy a place already nicely fixed up.

So while we have the expertise & financing in our family to try to do this, the willingness is not there. They all believe it would be a losing bet. Are they right?

[davejones]

Is there any money to be made in refurbishing & reselling shop houses? This is the process we call flipping in America; I'm not sure if that's a common term elsewhere. The idea is you only own the property for a few months, fix it up & resell quickly. I see the link above for shop houses for sale & they look pretty nice. Among my wife's family, we have expertise in banking, remodeling & sales. I trust them all and would have no problem keeping the property in their name.

However, the aforementioned in-laws are unanimous that one cannot make money doing this. They said given the choice of buying a nicely refurbed unit at a premium price, or an old rundown place at a discount, Thai will always buy the cheaper place & do the refurb themselves. This is opposite of Americans who generally will pay a premium to buy a place already nicely fixed up.

So while we have the expertise & financing in our family to try to do this, the willingness is not there. They all believe it would be a losing bet. Are they right?

Yes, I think they are right. If it was something that would work then I'm pretty sure that there'd be plenty of Thai companies doing this, but there aren't. There may be some special situations where it would work, but generally it won't.

[rgs2001uk]

Is there any money to be made in refurbishing & reselling shop houses? This is the process we call flipping in America; I'm not sure if that's a common term elsewhere. The idea is you only own the property for a few months, fix it up & resell quickly. I see the link above for shop houses for sale & they look pretty nice. Among my wife's family, we have expertise in banking, remodeling & sales. I trust them all and would have no problem keeping the property in their name.

However, the aforementioned in-laws are unanimous that one cannot make money doing this. They said given the choice of buying a nicely refurbed unit at a premium price, or an old rundown place at a discount, Thai will always buy the cheaper place & do the refurb themselves. This is opposite of Americans who generally will pay a premium to buy a place already nicely fixed up.

So while we have the expertise & financing in our family to try to do this, the willingness is not there. They all believe it would be a losing bet. Are they right?

Are they right?

Yes, three reasons, lack of finances to pay for upgraded property, why pay someone to do what you can do for yourself to a standard you find acceptable with the materials of your choosing.

Secondly, the face issue and reluctance to buy second hand property, if Thais do buy second hand property they are usually buying for loacation, either proximity to work or for potential capital gain such as BTS, or the Thais will buy the property and demolish it and erect their own.

Thirdly, capital gains tax if sold within a certain time period.

[wpcoe]

I think that if foreigners could legally buy/own a townhouse, there might be a better success potential at flipping. As said, Thais would rather buy low and fix it up themselves, or are reluctant to buy "used" at all, so the current pool of buyers would be rather small.

Edited November 11, 2012 by wpcoe

[trogers]

People living in townhouses have some issues regarding some of their neighbors converting part of their houses for commercial purposes. And now you want to convert a shophouse to be a residence. Take note such commercial properties in Thailand have pretty low safety standards, esp. for fire.

I will not be sleeping tight in one of them.

Don't compare Thailand to Singapore with regards to safety standards and their implementations.

[USNret]

Thank you to all who responded. Clearly my thinking was in need of recalibration and you've given me plenty to think about.

[bbradsby]

There are a few websites listing shophouses for sale.

http://www.shophousesbangkok.com for example.

But it's usually when I am driving and see a phone number on an interesting looking shophouse that gets me interested.

I am only starting to look more seriously in the area that I currently live and work (Bang Rak). There seem to be quite a few for sale. Some are surprisingly expensive for what they are. If I find the right one, I will "buy" it.

Places like Singapore embraced shophouses as residential or trendy offices years ago. I'm just surprised Bangkok has not seen a developer buy up a row of older shophouses and convert to trendy townhouses...

I've looked into it as well. As a US architect/construction manager, I can easily make it happen from a design & technical standpoint. However, the ROI has been the challenge due to high purchase price.

But if you find the right property, location & price for your needs/budget, the technical building issues are nothing out of the ordinary if you know multifamily construction. Exiting, fire safety and fire-rated construction are some of the challenges to this building type. Also, older Thai concrete shophouses can be very suspect structurally, and/or nearing the end of their useful life, so should be inspected by a professional. PM me if you would like to discuss further.

Edited November 12, 2012 by bbradsby

[Khun Jean]

Don't disregard trogers post, You can have a beautiful converted shophouse but when your neighbor decides to sell gas bottles would you feel save?

Or if they start a metal shop, can you stand the noise? Or a small isaan restaurant, can you stand the smell of p'la?

Afterall shophouses are meant to house small businesses and only have some room for when not working because it is convenient for the shopkeepers.

[JeffreyMcCollum]

I had been doing the condo thing for years. 1 year ago got a shop house.

First floor is car park as they say in Thai, Living room, dining, office, kitchen and a bathroom

Second floor is 2 bedrooms both with large balconies, a master bathroom and launday.

Under the roof I had 10' (3 meters) so I made a guest suit up there.

Everything was upgraded to international standard or better. I have had several offers at a large profit, but my location I like and the wie 5 meter width I like for large rooms and just haven't found anything I like better yet

I'm real happy living in my shop house. And all those who say you cxan't have a home in your name talk without really knowing, but let them keep thinking that

[davejones]

I had been doing the condo thing for years. 1 year ago got a shop house.

First floor is car park as they say in Thai, Living room, dining, office, kitchen and a bathroom

Second floor is 2 bedrooms both with large balconies, a master bathroom and launday.

Under the roof I had 10' (3 meters) so I made a guest suit up there.

Everything was upgraded to international standard or better. I have had several offers at a large profit, but my location I like and the wie 5 meter width I like for large rooms and just haven't found anything I like better yet

I'm real happy living in my shop house. And all those who say you cxan't have a home in your name talk without really knowing, but let them keep thinking that

Very interesting. I love it when people do things that others swear blind can't be done. As that old Chinese proverb says... Will those we say it can't be done please keep quiet will the people who know it can be done get on with doing it.

Do you mind sharing some details, such as cost to buy, cost of renovations, amount you got offered for it. Also, what are the other shophouses around it like. Just wondering what sort of condition those are in compared to yours. Also, how did you buy in your name. And what area of Bangkok is it in.

I would love to live in a shophouse; I think their great, and much more spacious than a condo.

[Khun Jean]

I had been doing the condo thing for years. 1 year ago got a shop house.

First floor is car park as they say in Thai, Living room, dining, office, kitchen and a bathroom

Second floor is 2 bedrooms both with large balconies, a master bathroom and launday.

Under the roof I had 10' (3 meters) so I made a guest suit up there.

Everything was upgraded to international standard or better. I have had several offers at a large profit, but my location I like and the wie 5 meter width I like for large rooms and just haven't found anything I like better yet

I'm real happy living in my shop house. And all those who say you cxan't have a home in your name talk without really knowing, but let them keep thinking that

I am always intrigued by someone who says they own something in their name other than a condo. It often is only a 49% share in a company with 51% owned by nominee shareholders.

A building can be owned, land can not.

Show some proof, otherwise it are empty words.

Edited November 12, 2012 by Khun Jean

[rgs2001uk]

I had been doing the condo thing for years. 1 year ago got a shop house.

First floor is car park as they say in Thai, Living room, dining, office, kitchen and a bathroom

Second floor is 2 bedrooms both with large balconies, a master bathroom and launday.

Under the roof I had 10' (3 meters) so I made a guest suit up there.

Everything was upgraded to international standard or better. I have had several offers at a large profit, but my location I like and the wie 5 meter width I like for large rooms and just haven't found anything I like better yet

I'm real happy living in my shop house. And all those who say you cxan't have a home in your name talk without really knowing, but let them keep thinking that

I am always intrigued by someone who says they own something in their name other than a condo. It often is only a 49% share in a company with 51% owned by nominee shareholders.

A building can be owned, land can not.

Show some proof, otherwise it are empty words.

Must admit I am always sceptical about these sort of claims.

Until such times as I see a chanote issued in a farangs name I take all these claims with a pinch of salt.

Yes KJ you are correct its entirely possible to own a house here, just not the land it sits on.

So come on JM man up and show us proof, otherwise you are only spreading false hope.

[SteeleJoe]

I started thinking about converting a shophouse over 20 years ago. Planned and planned and almost did it a couple times but for various reasons never did.

Uhmm...not very helpful, is it? Guess i just wanted to say I understand the appeal.

[wpcoe]

Is a shophouse (or a residential townhouse) eligible for a usufruct agreement on the structure? Are the structure and the land under it legally separate?

[Khun Jean]

If it was separated you would be able to just buy the structure and usufruct the land. However it is not.

Separating it is as good as impossible.

[wpcoe]

Thanks. That's what I thought, but wanted to make sure. (And, yes, I meant to ask about usufructing the land, not the structure...)