Looking To Rent Land For Sugarcane

[jamescollister]

I think that the link that I posted by Isaan Lawyers is pretty clear on at least one type of agreement for lease, which would suit your needs. This type of information is quite easy to find actually, and anything that you read here is just someone's experience or interpretation of Thai law. You would do well to do your own due diligence, find your land and do your best on it. My experience with Thai landlords before I bought land was not good. Beware. I had several of them. They have some concepts in thinking that are quite different than our thinking and our laws. Get a specific and well written lease. You would do well to have a lawyer draw one up for you rather than have their (owners) contract.

I think your chances of getting a Thai to sign into an iron clad long term lease that gives you full rights are slim, but good luck.

Tell you what; I have about a rai just outside of Chiang Mai, that has enough room for a 8x12m greenhouse. I'd lease it to you for 2 years. It has a 2 bedroom Thai style house, very private, no close neighbors, and a couple or 6x2m good dog runs in case you have dogs. It is completely fenced. It is for sale on Thai visa right now, but to be quite quite honest, I am not keen on selling it yet. I don't know what I will want to do in 2 years. I may want to live in Chiang Mai again. Daron

Thank you for that Daron, i did read that article from Isaan Lawers, and i feel that it is legal to do an usurfuct, and it seems to say, i am very well protected, so i will certainly be using a law firm to get it done properly, at the moment i am just loking at options as to where i want to base myself. can you pm me with the advertisment you have posted, i did see 7 rai for sale or lease in Chiang Dao but i dont know what it was like , the photos were no good, it was in Lahu Village

cheers

Scoop

Scoop, Usurfuct is the English word, they don't really exist in Thailand. Lawyers draw up contracts using a Thai law that allows the right to collect fruit from an orchid, then tell you it is a binding Usurfuct, which it is if you are a Thai collecting fruit. A farang is excluded from agricultural work, so you can not collect fruit to start.

All these schemes are just that schemes to try and circumvent Thai law, I have yet to hear of one that has held up in court. If you get a lawyer to draw up one of these deals, get another one to draw up a contract that says the first law firm is libel for any losses if the contract is broken, by the owner. Willing to bet that these binding land deals aren't so strong that a law firm will guarantee them. You can sue lawyers in the west for bad advice and loss of money, not here, they take your money and that's the end of their involvement. If any of these schemes were legal, wouldn't farangs be buying bars, houses in BKK, resorts etc My understanding is the longest lease is 3 years after which the land owner can re negotiate the rent.

As I said if these deals are legal in rural Thailand then they would be legal in big city Thailand, anyone bought a house in BKK, Samui, Pattaya using a Userfuct, think I read of some being done in Samui, then the company folded the alleged owners did a runner and left the country, leaving the home owners with nothing.

Be very very careful when parting with money here, there is no come back for a farang, you are a retiree, or on a visa, each are only good for a year. Want to be safe buy in Malaysia. Jim

[oldestswinger]

jamescollister: Have you read the piece from isaanlawyers mentioned by Canada?

[Scoop1]

Thanks Jim, it just gets more confusing, so many differing opinions , and lawyers say it is totally legal

cheers

Scoop

[Scoop1]

jamescollister: Have you read the piece from isaanlawyers mentioned by Canada?

Hi oldestswinger, i read it, and it says its legal, but other posters are of the opinion that is not, so its hard to make a decision on what to do, i guess it will be safer to just rent for a while and suck it and see, but that makes it hard to build anything that can't be moved

Cheers

Scoop

[oldestswinger]

Scoop1: I know what some seem to think that a usufruct is no good, but I haven't seen them present

any evidence for that, other than anecdotal. On the other hand, isaanlawyers do quote case precedent

in its favour.

[slapout]

What works in one provience/court means little in other areas of this country. Many of us have had experience with the enforcement or non enforcement of land titles/ownership, rewntal agreements, law firms and their best guess of possible out comes, land ownership changes (Thai legally married to farang) requests for tea money, and outright Thai favortism displayed by civil servernts.

The only saving grace for the farang may be the courts and their lean toward the male in divorice cases, concerning community property, settlement/dividion.

Look and plan from the worst scenerio that you can imagine and you may come out with a netural smell, no smell of roses, but no smell of sh.t either., Good luck

[klubex99]

I guess that this has veered off topic a bit but is interesting.

For my two pence I think being 50% in love is a non starter so always go all in.

If it fuc_ks up then sure lots of tears but my latest effort has gone 16 years now and shows no signs of flagging so I am getting better at it

I am more than happy to lose everything I have in Issan if god forbid my wife passed away or kicked me out.

To the OP I would suggest scaling back the amount of land you want to rent. As you are finding it is not that easy to find so

how about just renting 1 or 2 rai and spending your mney on irrigating that in order to test the theories. If they turn out well then go for it in a bigger way. With any new project I always favour the slow approach. If it works then expand and go in big time.

Same with women really

Hi all....

Sorry I haven't kept on the thread much, I needed to catch up on a few other things.

I agree that it is not easy finding 50 rai, so I have actually already decided to scale down as there is much more availability and quite close to me.

So I will be going for just the 5 rai for the experimental, that also over-rides any labour problems, I think 5 rai is more than manageable for me and the wife to look at ourselves. I would use the brokers to sell it and get a small return although there won't be any profit, only a loss. But I have sidelined Bt200K for it, and won't be too upset if I lost the lot.

[klubex99]

And another thread goes off topic

OP, we have 30+ rai in Chaiyaphum that we could rent to you.

It will be available in January. Includes a very large pond on site, not sure exact size as I've only seen pics..

I was out of country when my wife bought the plot but it is very fertile and water is not an issue.

Thanks

Sent you an email.

[jamescollister]

jamescollister: Have you read the piece from isaanlawyers mentioned by Canada?

Yes I have read it, and at the end they say "we believe that it can't be canceled". They go on about Roman law and site some court decisions, but don't say if the court decision were for farangs or Thais.They do mention the orchard, which is what the law is about.

I have also read the English language Thai law associations take on it and they don't believe it will hold up in court. Jim .

[Canada]

I think we all know that buying land here is risky business with no "fool proof" way of protecting your purchase. That's why Thailand still belongs to the Thais. If I were Thai, I would be quite happy with the government's take on this. Being non thai, we all just do what we think is best...and hope for the best. I am sure that this has been debated to death. Only sure way to know is to go to court yourself and report your own outcome. I hope it is not me that that falls on. Goodnight gents.

[Extenso]

I think I can help you with all the data you need. I have done this for years and will soon make a youtube video about all the facts. Will publish it as soon I have it done. I am Danish but adopted from Thailand, so I can walk between the thais and own land.

[Tomtomtom69]

This has been exciting, so what's happening? Found another plot yet or what?

Nope, drew nothing but blanks, but I have put some word around that I am happy to pay a 'spotters fee' to anyone who can find exactly what I want. Save me a lot of driving about and fuel costs etc...

I need to knuckle down on the administrative side of my projects this week having given them scant attention over the past 10 days or so. If I don't catch up by the end of the week, by next week it will be like trying to juggle buckets of water.

But I can only really devote so much time to this before I have to face reality of either buying the land or moving on to other things.

My MIL keeps asking the wife why I am going into farming, even though I have explained so many times. But Thais find it hard to grasp why a farang who can earn a lot of money doing other things, wants to retard thenselves into what the poor people of Thailand have to do, and mostly not out of choice. Like I am choosing LoSo over HiSo.

But there are many complex reasons, and I don't really expect her to understand. Thais don't normally think big, and that sometimes creates a barrier of understanding.

True that, but what these people don't understand is that it IS possible to generate high incomes from farming, even in Thailand. Rice farming may be back breaking and not get you anywhere income-wise (which is the basis for many of these local's attitudes I suspect), but sugar cane though it's not my area of expertise may have the potential of generating a certain level of income. You should knock back all the local doomsayers who think you'll fail or laugh at your idea because in all likelihood, they just don't have a clue that there are actually many foreigners involved in agriculture and that there is money to be made in farming. At the very least you could also say you are doing it for fun, but at the end of the day it's nobody's business. Try and find some land and then see what happens - personally I can't see how it can be so hard just to find that elusive parcel of land you are looking for. Without going into detail I have found the response to my idea quite the opposite to your experience (although I'm not attempting to grow sugar cane). I would rent a plot of land from people I know (already numerous people have offered to rent out their land to me for this purpose) to grow a certain viable crop and then process it in a factory somewhere else. It beats trying to purchase this crop commercially from wholesalers as the supply from those people is uncertain.

[nev]

This has been exciting, so what's happening? Found another plot yet or what?

Nope, drew nothing but blanks, but I have put some word around that I am happy to pay a 'spotters fee' to anyone who can find exactly what I want. Save me a lot of driving about and fuel costs etc...

I need to knuckle down on the administrative side of my projects this week having given them scant attention over the past 10 days or so. If I don't catch up by the end of the week, by next week it will be like trying to juggle buckets of water.

But I can only really devote so much time to this before I have to face reality of either buying the land or moving on to other things.

My MIL keeps asking the wife why I am going into farming, even though I have explained so many times. But Thais find it hard to grasp why a farang who can earn a lot of money doing other things, wants to retard thenselves into what the poor people of Thailand have to do, and mostly not out of choice. Like I am choosing LoSo over HiSo.

But there are many complex reasons, and I don't really expect her to understand. Thais don't normally think big, and that sometimes creates a barrier of understanding.

True that, but what these people don't understand is that it IS possible to generate high incomes from farming, even in Thailand. Rice farming may be back breaking and not get you anywhere income-wise (which is the basis for many of these local's attitudes I suspect), but sugar cane though it's not my area of expertise may have the potential of generating a certain level of income. You should knock back all the local doomsayers who think you'll fail or laugh at your idea because in all likelihood, they just don't have a clue that there are actually many foreigners involved in agriculture and that there is money to be made in farming. At the very least you could also say you are doing it for fun, but at the end of the day it's nobody's business. Try and find some land and then see what happens - personally I can't see how it can be so hard just to find that elusive parcel of land you are looking for. Without going into detail I have found the response to my idea quite the opposite to your experience (although I'm not attempting to grow sugar cane). I would rent a plot of land from people I know (already numerous people have offered to rent out their land to me for this purpose) to grow a certain viable crop and then process it in a factory somewhere else. It beats trying to purchase this crop commercially from wholesalers as the supply from those people is uncertain.

Try telling that to the thai farmers you will be laughed at, i know a few major sugar cane farmers and they are all trying to get out.

It is bloody hard work and you pay out a lot get money come in it soon goes out again, workers are wanting more now so costs are going up.

Any Falang who thinks he can just rent land and put down sugar and make a profit is delusional the costs are very high, and without your own truck and tractor and own workers you costs are even more.

[kaspercat]

Don't forget some down time for crop rotation to replenish the soil.

You may talk to your nearest miller. I know some have agreements with some expats growing and managing sugar land and crops. They can also arrange for harvester cutting as well.

[Canada]

Don't forget some down time for crop rotation to replenish the soil.

You may talk to your nearest miller. I know some have agreements with some expats growing and managing sugar land and crops. They can also arrange for harvester cutting as well.

Thais view this practice as a waste of good growing time.

I know....Thais view it as this; not me. I have talked to many of them about fallowing and it is a foreign word and practice which the locals in my area are not keen to adopt.

[klubex99]

This has been exciting, so what's happening? Found another plot yet or what?

Nope, drew nothing but blanks, but I have put some word around that I am happy to pay a 'spotters fee' to anyone who can find exactly what I want. Save me a lot of driving about and fuel costs etc...

I need to knuckle down on the administrative side of my projects this week having given them scant attention over the past 10 days or so. If I don't catch up by the end of the week, by next week it will be like trying to juggle buckets of water.

But I can only really devote so much time to this before I have to face reality of either buying the land or moving on to other things.

My MIL keeps asking the wife why I am going into farming, even though I have explained so many times. But Thais find it hard to grasp why a farang who can earn a lot of money doing other things, wants to retard thenselves into what the poor people of Thailand have to do, and mostly not out of choice. Like I am choosing LoSo over HiSo.

But there are many complex reasons, and I don't really expect her to understand. Thais don't normally think big, and that sometimes creates a barrier of understanding.

True that, but what these people don't understand is that it IS possible to generate high incomes from farming, even in Thailand. Rice farming may be back breaking and not get you anywhere income-wise (which is the basis for many of these local's attitudes I suspect), but sugar cane though it's not my area of expertise may have the potential of generating a certain level of income. You should knock back all the local doomsayers who think you'll fail or laugh at your idea because in all likelihood, they just don't have a clue that there are actually many foreigners involved in agriculture and that there is money to be made in farming. At the very least you could also say you are doing it for fun, but at the end of the day it's nobody's business. Try and find some land and then see what happens - personally I can't see how it can be so hard just to find that elusive parcel of land you are looking for. Without going into detail I have found the response to my idea quite the opposite to your experience (although I'm not attempting to grow sugar cane). I would rent a plot of land from people I know (already numerous people have offered to rent out their land to me for this purpose) to grow a certain viable crop and then process it in a factory somewhere else. It beats trying to purchase this crop commercially from wholesalers as the supply from those people is uncertain.

Try telling that to the thai farmers you will be laughed at, i know a few major sugar cane farmers and they are all trying to get out.

It is bloody hard work and you pay out a lot get money come in it soon goes out again, workers are wanting more now so costs are going up.

Any Falang who thinks he can just rent land and put down sugar and make a profit is delusional the costs are very high, and without your own truck and tractor and own workers you costs are even more.

You seem to have forgotten the purpose of the exercise in the original post, or maybe you skimmed over it.

This is not about farming for a living, this is about maximizing the cash yield from a rai of land. It is a research and development exercise. It is purely to find the best method of farming sugarcane for profit.

We all know that the huge majority of sugar farmers in Thailand are not making a lot of money from their crop. But this is mainly because they don't know what they are doing. They are not using good business practices, and rely on what almost all (epecially Thai) sugar farmers have done for years. They do not adapt to new methods easily. The fact that they will laugh at you is actually the exact attitude that holds them back.

If by investing 40,000 THB in each rai of sugar will make it yeild 100 tonnes, then why isn't it being done? I will tell you why... RISK! No Thai farmer will risk a huge outlay on a risk, they play it safe and get by the way they have for years with their 12 tonnes per rai, and a 3000 THB investment in it.

The whole idea of my experiment is to find a more acceptable 'risk/return ratio. Say for example, maybe the results of the experiment will produce a method that would cost 15000THB in investment per rai but will create a yield of 40 tonnes p/r.

Wouldn't that be a much more intelligent way to farm sugar? Based on say 1000 baht per tonne, that would give a huge leap from 8,000 p/r to 25,000 p/r or maybe it could yeild 60 tonnes for an investment of 20,000 THB p/r raising the profits up to 40,000 p/r.

Successful farming is the same as any other business model, you have to maximize profits. If there is a way available to achieve this, then who is going to be the one that is laughing? The man who uses the best business practices or the man who has been 'doing it that way for years'?

Anyway. I scrapped the idea of renting, and went with the idea of buying.

I have bought 12 rai and will buy another 12 rai which is connected to it next month. Although this first 12 rai was for another project of mine which is teak plantation for the purpose of selling '50 tree' medium to long term investment plots. The second 12 rai will be split between 6 rai for agarwood (aquilaria crassna) planting, the last 6 rai will be used for the sugar experimentation.

I won't be doing the sugar till the end of the year, I will have missed the window I wanted to get it planted in. But I have plenty of things to keep me busy till then. I will be making lots of videos of the whole experiment process, and will keep this thread updated with them, in case anyone is interested in the project. 6 rai will be used for 6 varying methods although I have a fair idea that soil prep and fertilisation is going to probably end up being the best and most successful method for the best cost/profit ratio.

The land is only 40KM from my house and it is surrounded by sugar, the soil is perfect for it, and it has all year water with a very large stream running through it and irrigation pipes already running from it to the plantable land. Just need to take a pump down there for when the stream is low, when it is high it will irrigate itself. But this could be a bit much for the teak, I will need to concrete the pipes up that feed those rai and add a valve system to turn the water on and off as and when needed. There is also a large pond on the land that is covered by trees, so it won't dry up, it still has lots of water in it. I think it is only about 2 metres deep, so I think I will get a big excavator down there and make it more like 8 to 10 metres deep.

The land I had to put in my wife's name (obviously) she is also my business partner, and I trust her 100% we will have children soon, so we may just put it in their names. The land only cost 60,000 THB p/r and has a road right up to it, as well as the already mentioned water. It also has electricity cables running past it. In case we ever want to hook up.

The status of the land is what my wife calls 'nor sor sam kor' I don't know how to spell it, but she says it is the next level down from chanote land, and means that it could be easily transferred to chanote. So when we were at the land office doing the transfer of the ownership, we asked about it, and they said we can have chanote on it no problem, so once we handed the cash over to the seller and the deal was sealed, we went upstairs and set up the transfer to chanote which was accepted and cost us the sum of around 3000 THB for the lot, so now we have 12 rai of full chanote land.... simplest process I ever went through in this country. Already the land is probably worth twice what we paid for it, so we got a result. which is why we are going to buy up as much land as we can in that area.

Interstingly, when the money had changed hands and the supervisor at the land office put the final seal on the deeds, she said to my wife that she hoped my wife realised that if she (the supervisor) found out that it was falang money that paid for the land, she could go to prison (my wife) and the land confiscated by the government. But she said that because it was only 12 rai she won't ask to look at her bank statement. But if it were say 100 rai, then she would need to bring in her statement to show it is her money.

So I have started a practice of transferring cash to my wife's bank account every week to cover all future land purchases (just to be safe). Although my wife just laughs and says, if they found out, we would just pay the manager some money and they will go away.....lol Sounds about right.

Why didn't the Thai owners upgrade to full chanote?..... They didn't want to waste the 3000 THB which just about reinforces my opinion of the laughing farmer.

Edited January 31, 2013 by klubex99

[Canada]

As far as farang money buying land.... You should have been required to sign a document and provide copy of your passport. The document states that the land purchased is purchased with (wife's) money and that the land is private property of hers and not considered marital property. My wfe has never had to show bank info. I have had to sign this document on every piece that we bought though.

We have our own sugarcane experiment going. 3 rai, 3 different strains of sugar, varying planting and fertilising from the local norm. We also have 100 rai with 2 different strains and we are moving away from the local norm on these parcels as well. Difficult though as we are planted already and the way that they plant makes it difficult to do much with the crop aside from what they normally do. Probably the biggest obstacle I can see so far is irrigation on a larger scale. I have seen the 100 ton per rai farms and that is great if you have that kind of money to put into large pieces of land. Our experiment is more focused on trying to find a way to increase yield in a way that is applicable on a large scale. Our target this year is to just get to over 20 rai. I think it is pretty realistic that we will do that, even with the way that we are planted.... the Thais plant their rows very close together.....the sugar strangles itself and besides that, doing other work such as removing dead waste, fertiziing by hand, watering by hand, supporting heavy cane or weed control as the plant matures becomes increasingly more difficult.

We had 2 parcels and just bought and planted a third. On the 2 parcels, one did 16 tons per rai. We fertilised twice as much as anyone else and they all think I am crazy. On the other piece, we did poorly. we got 10 ton per rai. We had termites and lack of water. They are impressed with our 16 tons and the 10 tons is normal in this area...shitty.

I have moved here now to do it myself. I have been here for 3 months. Being an absentee farmer was not working so we will try it this way. We are still camping in a hut outside the village on the experiment land and are getting really tired of that. After being here for a while I can see the obstacles that they run into. Most of them are avoidable with a different perspective and money. This you cannot fault them for. The majority here do not have the money to do it properly. I see people struggling and doing their best....with nothing. ou have to credit them for keepin on and doing what they can do.

If you are energetic, there is a lot of information available. It would be nice if the few of us that are farming sugar kept a forum going on it. Perhaps a pinned sugarcane topic would be good. Some of us have it all figured out already and some don't. It would be good to sharer info.

Regards, Daron

[klubex99]

As far as farang money buying land.... You should have been required to sign a document and provide copy of your passport. The document states that the land purchased is purchased with (wife's) money and that the land is private property of hers and not considered marital property. My wfe has never had to show bank info. I have had to sign this document on every piece that we bought though.

We have our own sugarcane experiment going. 3 rai, 3 different strains of sugar, varying planting and fertilising from the local norm. We also have 100 rai with 2 different strains and we are moving away from the local norm on these parcels as well. Difficult though as we are planted already and the way that they plant makes it difficult to do much with the crop aside from what they normally do. Probably the biggest obstacle I can see so far is irrigation on a larger scale. I have seen the 100 ton per rai farms and that is great if you have that kind of money to put into large pieces of land. Our experiment is more focused on trying to find a way to increase yield in a way that is applicable on a large scale. Our target this year is to just get to over 20 rai. I think it is pretty realistic that we will do that, even with the way that we are planted.... the Thais plant their rows very close together.....the sugar strangles itself and besides that, doing other work such as removing dead waste, fertiziing by hand, watering by hand, supporting heavy cane or weed control as the plant matures becomes increasingly more difficult.

We had 2 parcels and just bought and planted a third. On the 2 parcels, one did 16 tons per rai. We fertilised twice as much as anyone else and they all think I am crazy. On the other piece, we did poorly. we got 10 ton per rai. We had termites and lack of water. They are impressed with our 16 tons and the 10 tons is normal in this area...shitty.

I have moved here now to do it myself. I have been here for 3 months. Being an absentee farmer was not working so we will try it this way. We are still camping in a hut outside the village on the experiment land and are getting really tired of that. After being here for a while I can see the obstacles that they run into. Most of them are avoidable with a different perspective and money. This you cannot fault them for. The majority here do not have the money to do it properly. I see people struggling and doing their best....with nothing. ou have to credit them for keepin on and doing what they can do.

If you are energetic, there is a lot of information available. It would be nice if the few of us that are farming sugar kept a forum going on it. Perhaps a pinned sugarcane topic would be good. Some of us have it all figured out already and some don't. It would be good to sharer info.

Regards, Daron

Hi Canada.

Sounds to me like you have your head screwed on the right way.

I agree that we should keep this going, and yes I am energetic as well as very enthusiastic. I just spent the past 12 hours sat here reading the farming forum. It's what I do from time to time, not because I have nothing better to do, but because I consider 12 hours on this forum to be more valuable than 6 months on an agro course. There is no replacement for real life experiences, and they serve well to help anyone avoid the mistakes of others.

I have no problem with the thread derailing slightly here and there. It is good to have different elements thrown in which can stoke the curiosity in other forms of farming. For example I was reading another topic earlier that skewed off for a few posts on a mushroom planting tangent which caused me to go and hunt a mushroom farming thread which I really enjoyed and found quite fascinating considering I knew sod all about mushrooms apart from the taste. I feel I could go out and start a mushroom farm tomorrow now....lol

I am always looking to diversify. It is good business sense not to put all your eggs in one basket... incidentally I may go off and explore egg production next.

But seriously, I commend you on your efforts to improve your yields, I really hope you find the perfect balance of costs/reward. Once you can generate more profit per rai, is when you can fund the cost of expanding the methodology across your entire operation, albeit bit by bit, but you will get there because I sense you are that type of individual.

Would be nice to possibly come and see your operation sometime, where are you located?

Regarding the land purchase, yes I had to sign my entitlements away like a good farang. My wife said that basically it was a waiver, that if we break up or whatever, that I know that I am not allowed to claim any ownership.... blah blah blah... you know the rest, and yes, they photocopied my passport and made me sign copies.

But I am stoked that we were able to get chanote on the land, because that gives us the full rights to register the teak for harvesting as and when. But we were already told that we can plant and cut it from the local forestry commission.

Onwards and upwards.

Edited January 31, 2013 by klubex99

[jamescollister]

Klubex99

[Why didn't the Thai owners upgrade to full chanote?..... They didn't want to waste the 3000 THB which just about reinforces my opinion of the laughing farmer.]

Please enlighten me as how you were able to up grade the title. One title is an aerial survey or map deed, the other is a ground survey with concrete markers in the ground.

A few years ago I paid 30,000 to get some land surveyed by the charnote people. As it was not in the areas that the charnotes were being issued [ main road ] it may be 10 years before the title gets issued. Charnotes are not issued by the local land office, but come from BKK.

Charnote upgrades are free, part of the Thai Government plan to allow farmers to borrow money on low title land and are issued where the charnote survey team is working. You just don't go to the land office and pay 3,000 Baht.

Thais are not that stupid, if they could up grade titles easily and double or triple the land value, there would be a line a mile long at the land office. Jim

[Gary A]

The present problem with sugar cane farming is the, NOW, high cost of cutting and transportation to the sugar mill. Yes, yield is also important but until mechanical harvesters are used and the short cut pieces are able to be transported more efficiently a huge chunk of profit is gone.

The future may see smaller crushing mills set up locally and the juice transported by tanker to the sugar or ethanol factories. The baggase will be used to generate electricity and fed into the national grid.

[slapout]

I am like Jim, several questions with the reported procedue followed and the results. But then no one ever accused the land departments, civil servants, etc of being consistent nor law abiding.

[tingtong]

The present problem with sugar cane farming is the, NOW, high cost of cutting and transportation to the sugar mill. Yes, yield is also important but until mechanical harvesters are used and the short cut pieces are able to be transported more efficiently a huge chunk of profit is gone.

The future may see smaller crushing mills set up locally and the juice transported by tanker to the sugar or ethanol factories. The baggase will be used to generate electricity and fed into the national grid.

Maybe another present( perpetual?) problem is that farmers, especially small farmers still forced by the system to sell for middle men, and not direct for factories. this way price is very effectively controlled against them, ie. for us the closest 4 place all buying the same price, whereas 30km away the price is more, even though they are further from the factory actually!

Also due the middle men buying system, most farmers never even get a chance to enjoy sugar content bonus.

If the company would run the weight stations in areas, they could have salaried employees, and both company and farmer would benefit, no question. But it is another thing certain ppl will never let happen maybe.

btw, in our area lot more land planted with sugar this yr, seems like lots of ppl betting that new gasohol rules will boost the need for sugar (and cassava) thus hoping higher prices too. to be seen...

[loong]

Klubex99

[Why didn't the Thai owners upgrade to full chanote?..... They didn't want to waste the 3000 THB which just about reinforces my opinion of the laughing farmer.]

Please enlighten me as how you were able to up grade the title. One title is an aerial survey or map deed, the other is a ground survey with concrete markers in the ground.

A few years ago I paid 30,000 to get some land surveyed by the charnote people. As it was not in the areas that the charnotes were being issued [ main road ] it may be 10 years before the title gets issued. Charnotes are not issued by the local land office, but come from BKK.

Charnote upgrades are free, part of the Thai Government plan to allow farmers to borrow money on low title land and are issued where the charnote survey team is working. You just don't go to the land office and pay 3,000 Baht.

Thais are not that stupid, if they could up grade titles easily and double or triple the land value, there would be a line a mile long at the land office. Jim

So what is the one with the concrete markers.

That's what they did with our small plot and that cost us 3,000 Baht

Before anyone jumps in - I paid 3,000 Baht and some people came out, surveyed and put in concrete corner markers on the small plot of land that the missus owns What title is that?

[jamescollister]

Klubex99

[Why didn't the Thai owners upgrade to full chanote?..... They didn't want to waste the 3000 THB which just about reinforces my opinion of the laughing farmer.]

Please enlighten me as how you were able to up grade the title. One title is an aerial survey or map deed, the other is a ground survey with concrete markers in the ground.

A few years ago I paid 30,000 to get some land surveyed by the charnote people. As it was not in the areas that the charnotes were being issued [ main road ] it may be 10 years before the title gets issued. Charnotes are not issued by the local land office, but come from BKK.

Charnote upgrades are free, part of the Thai Government plan to allow farmers to borrow money on low title land and are issued where the charnote survey team is working. You just don't go to the land office and pay 3,000 Baht.

Thais are not that stupid, if they could up grade titles easily and double or triple the land value, there would be a line a mile long at the land office. Jim

So what is the one with the concrete markers.

That's what they did with our small plot and that cost us 3,000 Baht

Before anyone jumps in - I paid 3,000 Baht and some people came out, surveyed and put in concrete corner markers on the small plot of land that the missus owns What title is that?

Did they issue a new title, or just put the survey markers in. If no new title you have just had your land marked and the title stays the same.

When the charnote people came to do the main highway, road widening. They surveyed the land at the side of the road and issued new charnote titles, free.

The land I paid 30,000 Baht to get surveyed, it was the cost of the survey [big job, winding little rivers on 3 side and lots of scrub ] That does not buy me the charnote, just means I know our boundaries and when time comes for the issue of charnotes in that area, mine has already been surveyed. Jim

[loong]

A new title was issued Jim. Can't remember whether it was after the concrete posts were put in or not.

So you pay for the survey and the title upgrade is free.

I guess that you need the survey before you can get the free upgrade.

[jamescollister]

A new title was issued Jim. Can't remember whether it was after the concrete posts were put in or not.

So you pay for the survey and the title upgrade is free.

I guess that you need the survey before you can get the free upgrade.

Loong, not necessarily so, did they issue you with a bit off paper showing the land boundries or a proper charnote land title with a big eagle on it. Can't remember if it was green or red, new charnotes are usually given in areas, not just individual properties. It's a country wide land title scheme and may take 10 or 20 years to cover the country.

I'd love to be able to go and get charnote titles on all our land titles, not going to happen out here for a long time. Jim

[Canada]

The present problem with sugar cane farming is the, NOW, high cost of cutting and transportation to the sugar mill. Yes, yield is also important but until mechanical harvesters are used and the short cut pieces are able to be transported more efficiently a huge chunk of profit is gone.

The future may see smaller crushing mills set up locally and the juice transported by tanker to the sugar or ethanol factories. The baggase will be used to generate electricity and fed into the national grid.

You are right. Cutting is not too bad and an obstacle that can be overcome, but transportation is a difficult and a costly obstacle. This leaves the sugar brokers in the drivers seat so to speak. To over come transportation costs, you almost have to start buying and selling other plots of cane as well to justify the cost of trucks to transport your own.

[Canada]

Klubex99

[Why didn't the Thai owners upgrade to full chanote?..... They didn't want to waste the 3000 THB which just about reinforces my opinion of the laughing farmer.]

Please enlighten me as how you were able to up grade the title. One title is an aerial survey or map deed, the other is a ground survey with concrete markers in the ground.

A few years ago I paid 30,000 to get some land surveyed by the charnote people. As it was not in the areas that the charnotes were being issued [ main road ] it may be 10 years before the title gets issued. Charnotes are not issued by the local land office, but come from BKK.

Charnote upgrades are free, part of the Thai Government plan to allow farmers to borrow money on low title land and are issued where the charnote survey team is working. You just don't go to the land office and pay 3,000 Baht.

Thais are not that stupid, if they could up grade titles easily and double or triple the land value, there would be a line a mile long at the land office. Jim

So what is the one with the concrete markers.

That's what they did with our small plot and that cost us 3,000 Baht

Before anyone jumps in - I paid 3,000 Baht and some people came out, surveyed and put in concrete corner markers on the small plot of land that the missus owns What title is that?

Edited. Spoke before reading on.

Edited February 2, 2013 by Canada

[Canada]

A new title was issued Jim. Can't remember whether it was after the concrete posts were put in or not.

So you pay for the survey and the title upgrade is free.

I guess that you need the survey before you can get the free upgrade.

Loong, not necessarily so, did they issue you with a bit off paper showing the land boundries or a proper charnote land title with a big eagle on it. Can't remember if it was green or red, new charnotes are usually given in areas, not just individual properties. It's a country wide land title scheme and may take 10 or 20 years to cover the country.

I'd love to be able to go and get charnote titles on all our land titles, not going to happen out here for a long time. Jim

Red bird...they call it a "kruut"....what ever the fuc_k that is...an eagle?? I guess....

[Canada]

Personally, I have passed on buying non chanote titles. Land "ownership" is risky enough here as it is without throwing in other variables.