Korean Air Scam Or Incompetence ?

[surangw]

My daughter left Bkk on Korean air flight 654 wed am 0:15 using an mileage award ticket.

got hasselled by thai counter person at kal telling her there was not enough mileage for the return ticket ( ticket was paid with 137 k miles months beforehand.

the person ( thai) at the counter told here she would have to pay cash to board the plane.

she stood her ground and asked for a supervisor. supervisor ( person spoke english to her and the counter staff, probably a korean worker) looked at the confirmation number on the computer and said all was ok.

anyone else been in the same situation? I think it was thai on thai trying to get a few bht.

[Meisgq]

Yes. Everything bad, unintended or not, in Thailand is a scam...

[jbrain]

Write it down to stupidiness of the Thai counter staff.

[surangw]

Write it down to stupidiness of the Thai counter staff.

Never a problem with Cathay counter staff though, was in and out in less than 5 minutes ( on the way to immigration) on 15 oct.

[craigt3365]

Were they using miles from another carrier? I had major problems last year with a United ticket that had a code share with ANA. Didn't know until I got there and it was a mess. Eventually had to literally grab the hand of the UA manager and walk them over to the ANA counter to get things sorted out. Took about an hour. ANA refused to do anything to help us and UA wasn't sure what was going on.

[Jigger]

Yes....

Everything in Thailand is a scam... All Thai's are out to steal your money...

gtfo

[lomatopo]

Without a lot more detail it is probably impossible to get to the primary issue here. I'm not certain "Scam" is the appropriate word as airline agent's activities are tightly controlled, monitored and audited. While there remains room for incompetence and mis-communication, scamming someone is not really possible.

What was the amount, in additional cash, which was mentioned?

It could have been something as simple your daughter flying on the wrong day - believe it or not this happens with hundreds of passengers each day at SBIA on flights which depart after 00:01.

There may have been an issue re: additional taxes and fees (fuel surcharge, PSF ex-BKK, etc.) - which I assume you paid for with a CC, over and above the miles.

There may have been a misunderstanding re: the difference in name between you and your daughter.

Generally when you issue an award ticket for a third party you want to arm that third party with every conceivable bit of documentation - assuming you cannot be there with them in person - in support of their ticket. Copies of receipts, PNRs, seat assignments, confirmations, written authorization from you with contact information. You should also ask the airline to add a note to the record detailing that this is your daughter - with your name and FF # - and that this is a gift - and any agent viewing the record will these notes.

Airlines are on the alert for people who sell tickets issued with award miles.

[asanee]

and one more thing to hold in mind for anyone above who seems to think the counter staff works for an airline; they do NOT-they work for AOT-and may even have to serve check-ins for various airlines in a days work. Youre again thinking youre in that USA

[lomatopo]

and one more thing to hold in mind for anyone above who seems to think the counter staff works for an airline; they do NOT-they work for AOT-and may even have to serve check-ins for various airlines in a days work. Youre again thinking youre in that USA

This is true for many airlines at SBIA and I guess I wouldn't be surprised if KE contracts front-line to AoT, with KE supes/managers on-hand.

However not all airlines use AoT - I know UA uses their own staff at SBIA (not security - CHUBB, or baggage - AoT).

Edited November 2, 2012 by lomatopo

[rfukata]

Were they using miles from another carrier? I had major problems last year with a United ticket that had a code share with ANA. Didn't know until I got there and it was a mess. Eventually had to literally grab the hand of the UA manager and walk them over to the ANA counter to get things sorted out. Took about an hour. ANA refused to do anything to help us and UA wasn't sure what was going on.

I frequently use the UA/ANA code share flights but nothing has happened to me so far. I can understand the frustration when something

goes wrong on a legit mileage ticket irregardless of it being a codeshare, I think in most part that the airline mile rules are quite complicated,

and confusing even for the counter agent. Yes, It is wise to seek a Manager or Supervisor who knows the codeshare/mileage ticket rule

to sort it out.

[surangw]

To address some of the questions:

ticket was in her name, fees paid with her credit card

mileage was from Korean air.

on time for the flight on the correct day.

no money mentioned ( it did not get that far, just the agent stating she would have to pay more to get on the plane)

[lomatopo]

It is unusual for the the miles to be issued from one account, in your name, and payment for the associated fees/charges in another name, even if the last names happen to be the same. But I think KE SKYPASS does have a way to register family members, and endorse bonus travel to them.

Unless there was a note in the record this may have flagged the PNR for review at check in? That is one guess. The other is that there may have been some changes in the fee/surcharge structure which might have called for an add/collect, even though that shouldn't happen on a previously issued award ticket.

Maybe ring KE SKYPASS and ask them what might have happened? Assuming you want to know.

Edited November 2, 2012 by lomatopo

[surangw]

It is unusual for the the miles to be issued from one account, in your name, and payment for the associated fees/charges in another name, even if the last names happen to be the same. But I think KE SKYPASS does have a way to register family members, and endorse bonus travel to them.

Unless there was a note in the record this may have flagged the PNR for review at check in? That is one guess. The other is that there may have been some changes in the fee/surcharge structure which might have called for an add/collect, even though that shouldn't happen on a previously issued award ticket.

Maybe ring KE SKYPASS and ask them what might have happened? Assuming you want to know.

hope members are not getting bored with this. ( but it might alert someone in a similar situation)

to answer your comments:

korean ( most airlines) require the fees to be paid by the person issued the ticket.

family member is registered with kal ( pain in the butt, with faxes , birth cert, ect) which was done properly/

I send an email to kal the day after the incident, so far no reply.

[pmem]

Write it down to stupidiness of the Thai counter staff.

Never a problem with Cathay counter staff though, was in and out in less than 5 minutes ( on the way to immigration) on 15 oct.

Write it down to pure and simple arrogance.

[WilliaminBKK]

Chalk it up to lack of training on the part of the agent, she didn't call her supervisor quickly enough to sort it out.

I can bore you with reasons why this happens but there are known issues at ALL airports with ground agents. AOT, BFS & TG provide services for multiple carriers and the actual computer will either use a VPN to the carrier directly or they will use a standard check in departure management tool that matches the manifest, timatic & seat maps to generate a boarding pass & luggage tag. If using the latter OSI messages will be generated once the flight is closed back to the carrier-this is why seat assignments get screwed up. If there are any issues during the process they will need the supervisor in order to check the actual carriers CRS via the VPN to verify certain details such as ticket numbers, taxes, change fees etc. KE will train one person on their formats and cryptic entry codes usually the supervisor, the front line folks could be doing KE one hour, PR the next and BA the next.

What I suspect happened is the interface the check in agent used didn't have all of the correct edifact/OSI/remark fields required because it was a mileage ticket, the messaging on the departure management tool is very basic and limited.

She saw something like Doe/John Mr BKK ICN (XY class) NO MILEAGE Permitted - the fare box empty and the taxes all grouped in as one and then a warning "Verify Credit Card to validate fare paid" and she saw NO FARE hence her ignorance.

Always best to carry all the paper generated from the ticket & if using multiple carriers their record locators as well to avoid confusion & ask for a supervisor to sort out the problem.

[HaruHaru]

My US based airlines did not allow me to endorse my mileage for my sister by the phone/fax. I had to drive more than 100 miles to their airport ticketing office for paper work. Presumably, the milage frauds had been big problems. It's surprising that KE still offers fax services. My sister also had to bring a copy of credit card receipt that I paid for taxes in order to check in.

Edited November 5, 2012 by HaruHaru

[gaucho]

its a scam ...any time thais can put a spin on anything they do ... they were hoping for a quick pay day .....if your daughter had of said i only have 50 dollars on me the response would have been thats ok ....similar things happened in philippines with the free in country tickets that they used to issue years ago in an attempt .......well intentioned actually to get people to go to other places besides angeles and manila the hassles were just not worth it .....

[lomatopo]

My US based airlines did not allow me to endorse my mileage for my sister by the phone/fax. I had to drive more than 100 miles to their airport ticketing office for paper work. Presumably, the milage frauds had been big problems. It's surprising that KE still offers fax services. My sister also had to bring a copy of credit card receipt that I paid for taxes in order to check in.

Until several steps into the UA/CO merger, one had to authorize any third-party award/upgrade sponsorship in person, either at a CTO/ATO/RCC. (Upgrades could be sponsored on-line without authorization.) UA/CO post-merger we have a PIN associated with our account, so any activities not doable on-line can be done over the phone, without the need for an in-person authorization. In the case of sponsoring upgrades now, any ticket issued with a voucher requires a call. UA provides free international access to their higher status service lines (8xx) in the U.S, which is handy.

Again, always best to provide the third party with any/all documentation in support of your gift or sponsorship, including an authorization letter from you, with contact details - and ask that the PNR (record) be so annotated.

Try to avoid getting any code-share flights on any award ticket. A code-share is a flight operated by an airline different than the one listed in the flight number; a code-share is typically identifiable by a four digit flight number. Note that this is not the same as getting an award ticket say issued by KE SKYPASS, which includes flights on DL (Delta), just make sure the DL flight, or even any KL flight is not a code-share, if it can be avoided.

[WilliaminBKK]

My US based airlines did not allow me to endorse my mileage for my sister by the phone/fax. I had to drive more than 100 miles to their airport ticketing office for paper work. Presumably, the milage frauds had been big problems. It's surprising that KE still offers fax services. My sister also had to bring a copy of credit card receipt that I paid for taxes in order to check in.

Until several steps into the UA/CO merger, one had to authorize any third-party award/upgrade sponsorship in person, either at a CTO/ATO/RCC. (Upgrades could be sponsored on-line without authorization.) UA/CO post-merger we have a PIN associated with our account, so any activities not doable on-line can be done over the phone, without the need for an in-person authorization. In the case of sponsoring upgrades now, any ticket issued with a voucher requires a call. UA provides free international access to their higher status service lines (8xx) in the U.S, which is handy.

Again, always best to provide the third party with any/all documentation in support of your gift or sponsorship, including an authorization letter from you, with contact details - and ask that the PNR (record) be so annotated.

Try to avoid getting any code-share flights on any award ticket. A code-share is a flight operated by an airline different than the one listed in the flight number; a code-share is typically identifiable by a four digit flight number. Note that this is not the same as getting an award ticket say issued by KE SKYPASS, which includes flights on DL (Delta), just make sure the DL flight, or even any KL flight is not a code-share, if it can be avoided.

US carriers have some unique rules that apply only to them and are based on taxes and gifting of free tickets, all will be disclosed at time of booking. Other Star Alliance carriers have no such rules and tickets can be given to anyone, of course in offline stations it is always best to either have documentation and verify the airline updates the OSI fields that approval has been granted.

In terms of avoiding code share flights on award tickets that totally defeats the entire alliance programmes intent, if I want to use my TG points to a non TG destination of course LH/AC/NZ/OS/JJ flight numbers would be nice however the code sharing over rides direct flight numbers.

The easiest way to avoid any confusion is call each airline on an award ticket, request your record locator-simply mention you want to do online check in. There is absolutely no need to avoid code share flights, it works for revenue passengers therefore it will work for reward tickets you just need to be prepared.

[lomatopo]

In terms of avoiding code share flights on award tickets that totally defeats the entire alliance programmes intent, if I want to use my TG points to a non TG destination of course LH/AC/NZ/OS/JJ flight numbers would be nice however the code sharing over rides direct flight numbers.

Your misunderstanding of my comment indicates I didn't do a very good job with my recommendation.

If you use FF miles/points to issue an award via an alliance partner I am suggesting that one attempt to avoid code-shares. So if you are using TG points for a Star Alliance award ticket, and one segment is FRA-IAD, I would suggest you try to get say UA 917 rather than LH 9290, or LH 418 rather than UA 8827 - AFAIK TG does not code-share FRA-IAD with any Star Alliance partner. In most cases there will not be any issues with a code-share but avoiding them, as with any ticketing situation, can remove one potential obstacle/hurdle, and perhaps even make it easier when dealing with delays (weather, mechanical) and cancellations. YMMV.

edited to add: An ancillary benefit of avoiding code-shares is that it makes it easier on the first-time, language-challenged or infrequent traveler, who might often be the beneficiary of a gifted award ticket. Code-shares can be very confusing for many, and flights may actually depart from different terminals. So again, this recommendation, as with all of mine in this thread, is just meant to make things easier.

Edited November 5, 2012 by lomatopo

[surangw]

Kal was kind enough to send me a reply today ( one week later)

Dear Mr. Pontecha

First of all, thank you for choosing Korean Air. Also I appreciate your valuable time to write to us.

After we checked with the check-in agent, we figured out that the agent mentioned about additional

mileage that might be needed.

We are operating 2 kinds of prestige classes here, prestige© and prestige sleeper(J).

By the time your ticket was purchased with your mileage, BKK/ICN flight wascheduled to operate C

class, but after a while, we changed the aircraft type from C to J. Since it was "us" that changed the

aircraft type, not you, but "we" changed, we waiver the mileage difference. However, the agent's

was not so sure about this, that is why the agent called Korean Manager, and the right information,

then, was given out to your daughter.

I am really sorry for the inconvenience that your daughter and you experienced because of the

wrong information, we will bring this matter to the check-in agent's attention, and well-educate

them so that this kind of mis-information would never be given to our valuable customers.

Once again, I apologize sincerely, and I hope we could serve you better next time.

Thank you.

Baek, JongBum

Station Manager

Bangkok Airport

Korean Air